AVP: part of the canon, or a separate universe?

[TurokSwe]

No it's a canon issue too.  When new stories are developed, we consider other Alien sources - we do not consider AvP.

I'm not sure what that's even supposed to mean or how that relates to the official canon. Obviously stories strictly centered on the Alien  or Predator licenses won't be considering AVP (even though they may reference or be connected to each other, as in the case of Fire and Stone, Life and Death, and The Rage War trilogy for instance), as I'd figure that's the very purpose of the AVP license itself to fill out that role.

If AVP stuff is not considered for the development of new stories in the Alien universe it is not canon to it.
If it would be, they would consider it to avoid contradictions.

That is of course flawed logic. AVP wasn't considered for the development of Predators, yet still takes place within the same universe. Neither Alien nor Predator stories are required to consider past works, especially if they don't actually contradict said past works (though one could argue that the technology present in Prometheus/Covenant was contradictory to the Alien films).

There is the charles bishop weyland universe and the peter weyland universe. Predators just exist in both.

The evidence seem to support a single shared universe, as I already argued for in my initial comment on this thread.

*The canon 'bible' Fox is using for the Alien series does not include the AVP films according to those who made Alien Covenant.

I can verify this.

+

AvP is cinematically tainted.

Which (if even true) of course means nothing.

Your case seems to boil down to 'because I say so, more is pointing to my opinion' for the most part.

I don't think you will sway anyone's mind with that and think you are frankly put, wasting your time.

I've just gotten off a plane and mercifully missed a great deal of this conversation, but the above seems a most accurate summation.

But it's not accurate, it seems to be a deliberate misrepresentation of my stance, especially taking into account my OP.

So apparently SM works with the licensing part of FOX, right? SM argues that that the Alien, Predator and AVP titles are seperate licenses and he wouldn't be wrong. But this certainly doesn't mean seperate license = seperate canon. If it were to mean that then Prometheus would also be a seperate canon, no? It's like how Ironman and Captain America are seperate movie licenses but both feature in crossover films.

I think FOX is quite ambigouos about canon so that if people just want to enjoy Alien on it's own they can do that. Or Predator or AVP etc. on it's own they can do that. But when considering AVP it includes all Alien and Predator films.

I believe to truly render AVP 'non-canon' we'd need either an official statement from FOX or a third prequel film that cements the idea of David as the Xenomorph creator. But even then AVP could be enjoyed as it's own canon (not including the prequel films).

I'm with ya Turok and I give you props for clearly expressing your arguements in a level-headed manner, even when you're copping lot of sh!tty response such as "AVP = non-canon because SM said".

Thank you! Much obliged! ^^

But this certainly doesn't mean seperate license = seperate canon.

Nope. Never has. Never will.

And has never been the argument.

Then what is the argument?

That Charles Bishop weyland and Peter Weyland doesn't exist in the same universe.

But they most likely do exist in the same universe (as demonstrated in my OP).

Free to ignore when there is a contradiction, as of right now, there is none.

The only thing being contradicted is Ripley's intent, but we all know Aliens already contradicts his intentions.

Agreed.

[yhe1]

No, Charles bishop weyland and Peter Weyland exists in different universes, per the wy report.

[TurokSwe]

I'm with ya Turok and I give you props for clearly expressing your arguements in a level-headed manner, even when you're copping lot of sh!tty response such as "AVP = non-canon because SM said".

It's not me saying it though.

People want to know what's considered canon and what's not.  I'm in position to tell them.  Then it's the predictable f**kwittery of 'I don't like that' (you're not obliged to), 'there are no contradictions' (lying or blissful ignorance - take your pick), 'the Weyland's are related' (they're demonstrably not), and 'David didn't create the Aliens because AvP' (in spite of Covenant).

Rinse.  Repeat.

It seems to be you saying it, and I mean, you're not actually an employee at Fox, are you? So how can you be in a position to tell it like it is, especially when you don't give any indication on Fox's stance on "canon" but simply on licenses? Perhaps it is that you feel that you are in a good-enough authoritative position that you feel you can more confidently express your personal preferences. Of course I could be wrong. Anyway, if there are any genuine contradictions then feel free to mention them (though I assume it's the same ones already addressed in my OP), and it can not be demonstrated that Charles and Peter are "not" related, but the evidence does seem to favor an actual relationship and this could easily be assumed without any problems. I have also already addressed the claim that "David created the Xenomorphs" in my OP and hopefully made it abundantly clear that, no, he didn't, and my arguments are coming primarily from Prometheus and Covenant themselves (which blatantly contradicts the entire concept of David as creator), with AVP being considered on a secondary level. Don't misrepresent my arguments please.

[SiL]

Your argument that Fox considers then all canon to each other is wrong because they don't. They say they don't. That's all that's needed to prove that part wrong.

The rest is up to you.

[TurokSwe]

Prometheus ignored AvP's Weyland, Covenant ignores everything explicitly saying Aliens are an older species.

for the former, We have evidence for FOX rebooting the universe with the WY report. No such evidence exists for the latter.

If we are even considering The Weyland-Yutani Report as canonical, then we also have to consider AVP canonical to Alien since it acknowledges Fire and Stone and Life and Death.

Except the scene in the film where they explain that an android created the Alien.

Except there was no such scene.

A very ambiguous scene that explains David created the Xenomorphs of Origae-6 nothing more. Anything else could be labelled as fan-theory.

Exactly.

Except the scene in the film where they explain that an android created the Alien.

We been through this. Even if Ancient xenomrophs exists per the titan books, David can still create another xenomorph later.

Again; Exactly.

A very ambiguous scene that explains David created the Xenomorphs of Origae-6 nothing more. Anything else could be labelled as fan-theory.

A film is not "fan theory".

What? I don't know how you got film = fan theory from that.
What I meant was David created the Xenomorphs on Origae-6, yes. But to say that he had anything to do with the derelict on LV-426 or that the film makes it impossible for Xenomorphs to come about under different circumstances somewhere else in the universe is also fan-theory.

^

.
I'm with ya Turok and I give you props for clearly expressing your arguements in a level-headed manner, even when you're copping lot of sh!tty response such as "AVP = non-canon because SM said".

Level headed? Are you f**king joking?

I'm with ya Turok and I give you props for clearly expressing your arguements in a level-headed manner, even when you're copping lot of sh!tty response such as "AVP = non-canon because SM said".

It's not me saying it though.

People want to know what's considered canon and what's not.  I'm in position to tell them.  Then it's the predictable f**kwittery of 'I don't like that' (you're not obliged to), 'there are no contradictions' (lying or blissful ignorance - take your pick), 'the Weyland's are related' (they're demonstrably not), and 'David didn't create the Aliens because AvP' (in spite of Covenant).

Rinse.  Repeat.

It's easy to present your opponent as "not level-headed" when you continually misrepresent their arguments.

[yhe1]

No, fire and stone and avp 2004 take place in different universes

[TurokSwe]

A very ambiguous scene that explains David created the Xenomorphs of Origae-6 nothing more. Anything else could be labelled as fan-theory.

A film is not "fan theory".

What? I don't know how you got film = fan theory from that.
What I meant was David created the Xenomorphs on Origae-6, yes. But to say that he had anything to do with the derelict on LV-426 or that the film makes it impossible for Xenomorphs to come about under different circumstances somewhere else in the universe is also fan-theory.

Because you insist only claiming what is shown in Covenant only pertains to the Aliens in that film and no others.  The latter part of that statement is fan theory.

And those Aliens aren't from Origae-6.  They never got to Origae-6.

After all, at best, the movie suggests David produced the Xenomorphs present on Planet 4 (not Origae-6 of course, I believe he simply switched them around, no harm done), not being the creator of all Xenomorphs that's ever existed down through all the billions of years that the black goo pathogen has been in existence, that's quite the leap.

[The Kurgan]

But the film doesn't even establish David as the creator, it leaves the issue up to interpretation, and other works contradict the idea of David as creator (eg. the official novel of Covenant and the home video release of Prometheus). You don't have to ignore anything, you simply need to put it all in context, so it turns out David is merely producing his very own variants of Xenomorphs, not creating the species as a whole.

Except it does. And no amount of handwaving about it "being open to interpretation" makes it so.

Who cares what the novel says? The novelizations of Aliens and Alien contradicted a lot of stuff in the movies, nobody thinks that is actually canon.

A marketing short from a previous movie contradicting the later movie also proofs nothing as it is just that, a special feature from a previous movie. And if that is not enough for you, Ridley, same director of Covenant   and Prometheus stated that David did it. Why do you give a little extra from the movie more weight than the word of the director of the same movie?

You can claim you proofed anything all you want, when you not even proved that the scene in the actual movie, the one with David going through his experiments, is actually up for interpretation, all the "evidence" outside of the movie does not matter, cause the actual movie trumps novelizations, previous crossover entries and home release extras of previous entries.

And no, how long the black goo existed is also no evidence for anything.

And of course we have old Ridles statement that you also conveniently handwave away because it does not fit your argument. All that while one of your arguments is what the directors and crew of the AVPs had to say on the matter. Is it because one fits your narrative and one does not?

Also please stop trying to guesswork Fox's intention on the whole matter to give your arguments some kind of "official" weight, when you actually get told how they see it again and again and again by one who actually works with them.

[TurokSwe]

Please read my OP.

People did. It is just not the indisputable truth you claim it is. Regardless how often you claim it.

At best (if they've actually read it at all), they must have skimmed through it all out frustration at its contents. My OP is not "an indisputable truth" and I have never claimed it to be such (please stop misrepresenting me), but it is probably the strongest case you can make on this issue, and it favors a shared canon. You are free to make a more well-reasoned case against it if you actually have one, but if you can't suggest one, then don't act like my case is worthless and meaningless, because it arguably isn't, and don't misrepresent my arguments not insult me. At least you could show me that much respect.

Everyone's read your OP at this point, just because no-one's quoting it doesn't mean no-one's replying to it. Despite what you seem to believe, your OP isn't infailable. In fact it's premise: that 20th Century Fox considers all twelve films canon is demonstrably incorrect. Accept that and maybe you'll find someone more willing to engage with your theorising than thus far.

Until then, peace- I'm out and I'd advise everyone else to do the same as the last six pages are nearly identical in their content.

I doubt they have, and at best they may have skimmed through it. Once again, I NEVER implied that my OP was supposedly "infallible" so please stop misrepresenting me. I merely suggested that it's the strongest case that can be made, and since you have not been able to properly respond to its arguments, I take that as confirmation that you reluctantly agree with its contents but refuse to endorse it because it's not what you want. Noting that my statement that Fox considers all twelve films canon is an overview of the contents of my OP and thus demonstrably accurate. You have not yet demonstrated anything to the contrary.

[yhe1]

Just because you can make a case for a share universe, that doesn't make it true. Fox, via the wy report, says there are two universes

[Frosty Venom]

Oh yeah my bad. I meant Planet 4.

[The Kurgan]

Please read my OP.

People did. It is just not the indisputable truth you claim it is. Regardless how often you claim it.

At best (if they've actually read it at all), they must have skimmed through it all out frustration at its contents.

I doubt they have, and at best they may have skimmed through it. Once again, I NEVER implied that my OP was supposedly "infallible" so please stop misrepresenting me. I merely suggested that it's the strongest case that can be made, and since you have not been able to properly respond to its arguments, I take that as confirmation that you reluctantly agree with its contents but refuse to endorse it because it's not what you want. Noting that my statement that Fox considers all twelve films canon is an overview of the contents of my OP and thus demonstrably accurate. You have not yet demonstrated anything to the contrary.

Dat arrogance 

[TurokSwe]

Honestly, I feel the only issue is that just because you can make charles bishop weyland and peter weyland work, it does not mean they are in the same universe.

I appreciate you admitting that Charles and Peter are perfectly able to co-exist, and granted, the mere fact that they actually can co-exist doesn't prove that they actually do, and that's why we take the rest of the arguments in my OP into consideration and look at it all with more context, which would only further the plausibility of them actually being father and son (at least that would be the most reasonable understanding of their relationship).

No, Charles bishop weyland and Peter Weyland exists in different universes, per the wy report.

I have this beautiful work sitting right on my desk with me, and I can safely say that The Weyland-Yutani Report does NOT suggest any such thing, and once more, if you are going to consider this work canonical, then you simply have to consider AVP canonical as well since it acknowledges Fire and Stone and Life and Death.

Your argument that Fox considers then all canon to each other is wrong because they don't. They say they don't. That's all that's needed to prove that part wrong.

The rest is up to you.

Another baseless claim. Please elaborate.

[yhe1]

Then there is nothing more to argue. The wy report said that charles and peter don't exist in the same universe. So there are two universes

[TurokSwe]

No, fire and stone and avp 2004 take place in different universes

Fire and Stone by mere association with AVP (and the Alien, Predator, AVP, and Prometheus films in general, not to mention the logo itself which is taken straight out of the movies) acknowledges that it all takes place in the same universe.