Quote from: Oasis Nadrama on Feb 03, 2019, 01:22:56 AM
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 01:15:32 AM
(Foundation dates besides, Covenant shows Aliens don't exist until the 2100s.)
Very true.
Except that's not true (as explained in my OP) and you will need to provide evidence for that claim.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 03, 2019, 01:52:14 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 02, 2019, 11:03:56 PM
FOX's stance on "canon" is so fluid as to be meaningless on an end-user level. There were dozens of comics and videogames and the like that were "officially canon" for decades, and all of a sudden they're "not canon" (which, when you truly stop and think about the ramifications, means literally nothing). Then FOX said "okay here's the line in the sand where 'official canon' starts", but then Alien Covenant comes out and outright contradicts a bunch of those "officially canon" items, and then releases even more that are extremely likely to be ignored/contradicted if more movies come out. So at best you've got things that are contradictory but still officially canon, or at least a constantly shifting goalpost that makes the concept meaningless.
I have to begrudgingly believe in this. There is no canon "bible" being strictly followed over at Fox. Fox was this close to allowing test audiences decide if filmed scenes of Ellen Ripley or Amanda Ripley would appear in the end of "The Predator", ultimately tying the Alien canon back into AVP.
Nope. The only reason AVP was retconned out is because Ridley wanted it out. If the next director wants it back in, making lore that much more convoluted, I truly believe Fox won't give a sh*t.
Noting that
AVP was never "retconned" to begin with, I simply has to agree with all that was said here.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Feb 03, 2019, 01:59:17 AM
Not when you got both both Covenant and Ridley saying David created the Alien. The shadow trilogy was canon, it was meant to be part of the new EU after Fox rebooted it but Covenant has made a mess of those plans.
Ridley is the only one even suggesting the concept of David as creator, but it isn't supported anywhere else, much less in the movie itself (as already explained).
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 02:01:59 AM
Its not up to ripley, its up to fox. If it was up to ridley fire and stone would not have been made
Word!
Quote from: The Cruentus on Feb 03, 2019, 02:07:27 AM
Ridley was given free reign on the IP when it came to covenant, at least that is what I heard. Ridley says a lot of things but right now he is saying David created the Alien and that does matter, it counts as a source. It might change in the future. Fox probably shares the same view by allowing Covenant to be made otherwise they would have intervened. Also rember that new info usually overrides old info. Covenant = New. Shadows/FSLD = Old.
It doesn't really count at all in the grand scheme of things, especially not when he's being contradicted by his own products. Trust me, Fox could care less if Ridley wants David to be the creator, they will do as they please and place the Alien anywhere on the timeline. Noting that they probably won't let him make any more movies.
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 02:13:07 AM
This was debated before, ancient xenomorphs showing up contradicts no part in covenant
Exactly.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 02:14:38 AM
The debate pretty much showed that it only doesn't contradict it if you ignore the film and substitute your own interpretation of events.
But the film doesn't even establish David as the creator, it leaves the issue up to interpretation, and other works contradict the idea of David as creator (eg. the official novel of
Covenant and the home video release of
Prometheus). You don't have to ignore anything, you simply need to put it all in context, so it turns out David is merely producing his very own variants of Xenomorphs, not creating the species as a whole.
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 02:18:05 AM
It may contradict ridley's intent, but it does not contradict the movie
Thank you!
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 03, 2019, 02:53:27 AM
Quote from: The Cruentus on Feb 03, 2019, 01:19:12 AM
@Turokswe
Whatever your personal canon is, it is up to you but when it comes to what is officially canon, then Fox has the last word, its up to them. You can't misinterprete their intentions based on older products, their views on canon changes. You can choose to ignore it all like Xenomrph said and just get on with life but it won't change what it officially is. You don't have to like it but there it is.
The "problem" with this line of thinking is the apparent begrudging resignation that the "official canon" somehow matters, or somehow matters more than what you choose to believe. That's not what I'm saying at all.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 01:15:32 AM
Their current products reflect that they don't consider AvP relevant to the Alien franchise.
Which current products? Just because there aren't AvP comics or novels on the shelves at this very moment doesn't mean they don't support AvP. We still get merchandise constantly (including merchandise about the AvP movies specifically), and we just got an expansion to a boardgame which features Predators fighting colonial marines from 'Aliens'.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 01:15:32 AM
(Foundation dates besides, Covenant shows Aliens don't exist until the 2100s.)
'Alien' shows that they predate this, though, and the (canon) novelization of 'Alien Covenant' supports this.
[insert "And here.... we... go" gif here]
Quote from: Samhain13 on Feb 03, 2019, 01:52:39 AM
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 01:42:48 AM
No, the titan stuff is still canon
And yet Covenant is canon as well, just shows you how much Fox cares about having a credible continuity on their so called canon entries.
If those are still currently considered canon by Fox then I guess they haven't yet realized the contradiction between Covenant and the Titan Trilogy.
Or, far more likely, they don't care.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Feb 03, 2019, 02:07:27 AM
Ridley was given free reign on the IP when it came to covenant, at least that is what I heard. Ridley says a lot of things but right now he is saying David created the Alien and that does matter, it counts as a source.
A "source" is some sort of licensed, officially produced form of media (a movie, a game, a comic, whatever). Things Ridley Scott says in interviews are none of these.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Feb 03, 2019, 02:07:27 AMAlso rember that new info usually overrides old info. Covenant = New. Shadows/FSLD = Old.
This is a common misconception, and we have no indication that it's true. As I mentioned several pages ago, if you're going by FOX's "official canon", there is no ranking system and things haven't been excised by newer materials. 'Out of the Shadows' and Covenant are both "officially canon", full stop, all contradictions included. F&S/L&D/Rage War are still "officially canon", full stop, despite mixing Predators into the Alien universe and despite Ridley Scott's opinions on AvP as an idea.
And that's why, as Voodoo Magic recognized, the idea of an "official canon" is a nonsense idea at the audience level, and no one should be expected to follow it.
This! Agreed! ^^