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Author Topic: AVP: part of the canon, or a separate universe?  (Read 8745 times)

DUB1
Aug 27, 2014, 05:03:14 PM
Topic on: Aug 27, 2014, 05:03:14 PM
It's often been argued whether the AVP movies should be part of the canon, or be a separate franchise altogether.

I think it should be a little in-between. Any parts of the AVP movies that do not contradict the solo movies can be considered canon. Like the Aliens being trapped in the pyramid, and the town being nuked in AVP:R, as most of the human race remained ignorant of the Aliens' existence after AVP:R, not to mention all the Aliens were destroyed, allowing humanity not to worry about them, until much later in the future. The PredAlien's reproduction method, however, was a blatant contradiction that should obviously be ignored.

I wouldn't mind if certain AVP movies were canon, and others not. Not completely restricting them to the canon could provide certain opportunities as far as scripts are concerned, imo. Best of both worlds, and all that jazz.


Master
Aug 27, 2014, 05:22:34 PM
Reply #1 on: Aug 27, 2014, 05:22:34 PM
I think it mostly depends on point of view.  For me yes they are.  All in all there is not really anything that contradicts later films.  As much as I despise AvP-R we haven't seen Predalien in films before and we can't be 100% się what it can or can not do.  And even if there are future films featuring Predaliens (God I hope there will be) looking different striped of those stupid abilities, we can still say that this was abomination similar to Newborn. It's not the first time Aliens are shown doing some peculiar and totally unexpected things.  That's part of their charm.


RakaiThwei
Aug 27, 2014, 06:21:19 PM
Reply #2 on: Aug 27, 2014, 06:21:19 PM
This an old barrel of fish here being opened with a new crowbar. Infact, there is actually a thread already dedicated to this. It's the AvP Multiverse thread which can be found with this link here: http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=49750.390

However with the direction that Fox is going with the franchises, it's really hard to say. Fire and Stone is essentially a reboot of the comics, for the most part many sources from the writers, especially Christopher Sebela seem to indicate that they are ignoring the AvP films as well as the previously published expanded universe material. Scott Allie even suggest that this is a hard reboot as well, but they are keeping in mind of elements which were introduced in the previous EU. Since these new comics are a reboot, one can assume that the AVP films and the previous EU can be considered a separate but parallel universe.

Prometheus seems to ignore the AVP films, especially with the whole Weyland issue such as when the company was founded. PREDATORS, while said to ignore Predator 2 and the AvP films.. seems to allow the previous movies to somehow fit (although I don't like the idea of Predator 2 and AvP being connected to THAT movie). So AVP can still fit as far as the Predator franchise is concerned but even then, if we take into account the games and some of the comics.. the connection to the Alien franchise STILL HAS TO HAPPEN. Of course with the Shane Black movie on the way.. It's hard to figure out if it will keep AvP in mind or not.

But with the new comics and novels somehow tying into Prometheus.. it's probably a good idea for the fandom as a whole to view the franchises similarly to how the Halloween, Godzilla and even King of Fighters franchises have multiple timelines and alternate realities.

Honestly.. I hope Fox one day officially announces that there is a multiverse at work. It would just make things so much easier and keep everything canon but organized as well. I think it would make everyone happy.. Save for a few people.


Master
Aug 27, 2014, 07:09:15 PM
Reply #3 on: Aug 27, 2014, 07:09:15 PM
This an old barrel of fish here being opened with a new crowbar. Infact, there is actually a thread already dedicated to this. It's the AvP Multiverse thread which can be found with this link here: http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=49750.390

However with the direction that Fox is going with the franchises, it's really hard to say. Fire and Stone is essentially a reboot of the comics, for the most part many sources from the writers, especially Christopher Sebela seem to indicate that they are ignoring the AvP films as well as the previously published expanded universe material. Scott Allie even suggest that this is a hard reboot as well, but they are keeping in mind of elements which were introduced in the previous EU. Since these new comics are a reboot, one can assume that the AVP films and the previous EU can be considered a separate but parallel universe.

Prometheus seems to ignore the AVP films, especially with the whole Weyland issue such as when the company was founded. PREDATORS, while said to ignore Predator 2 and the AvP films.. seems to allow the previous movies to somehow fit (although I don't like the idea of Predator 2 and AvP being connected to THAT movie). So AVP can still fit as far as the Predator franchise is concerned but even then, if we take into account the games and some of the comics.. the connection to the Alien franchise STILL HAS TO HAPPEN. Of course with the Shane Black movie on the way.. It's hard to figure out if it will keep AvP in mind or not.

But with the new comics and novels somehow tying into Prometheus.. it's probably a good idea for the fandom as a whole to view the franchises similarly to how the Halloween, Godzilla and even King of Fighters franchises have multiple timelines and alternate realities.

Honestly.. I hope Fox one day officially announces that there is a multiverse at work. It would just make things so much easier and keep everything canon but organized as well. I think it would make everyone happy.. Save for a few people.

Im sorry mister but this is bullshit. There's nothing worst and more confusing then multiverse. Something either is canon or is not. I tend to agree that films create canon, especially that so far they don't contradict themselves in major way.


RakaiThwei
Aug 27, 2014, 07:23:39 PM
Reply #4 on: Aug 27, 2014, 07:23:39 PM
Im sorry mister but this is bullshit.

I disagree.

There's nothing worst and more confusing then multiverse.

I would say that argument is bull. Seriously, why does there have to be one canon instead of multiple? Why have such a limited canon where not many can agree upon what is canon and what isn't? If anything a multiverse or alternative timelines can work as long as it is organized. The Godzilla and Halloween franchises have a multiverse going on, and they seem to be doing just fine with their fandoms and I haven't seen anyone complain about their canon and continuities.

So who is to say we can't be fine with a multiverse? Why does there have to be one timeline?

I tend to agree that films create canon, especially that so far they don't contradict themselves in major way.

Sure the films are considered the primary source and core of the canon, we can agree on that but seems as if Fox's policy has changed. Probably because studio heads have changed recently. I do know that according to Moore, one of the writers for the new Alien novels, Fox was strongly considering on jettisoning Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection out of the canon as well. However they, for whatever reason, opted not to.

Even in the context of the films, if one counts the intent of PREDATORS and Prometheus, it's very clear that the desire of a separation of the franchises was intended and even seen as apparent.


Master
Aug 27, 2014, 09:27:57 PM
Reply #5 on: Aug 27, 2014, 09:27:57 PM
Chill man I'm  playing with you ;) See the thing is I'm looking at it from perspective of casual movie goer. People understand sequel, prequel,  reboot but get confused with everything else.  I don't want those movies be  understandable for few cause that means constant reboots and remakes or small budget niche pictures.


RakaiThwei
Aug 28, 2014, 01:37:43 AM
Reply #6 on: Aug 28, 2014, 01:37:43 AM
Chill man I'm  playing with you ;)

You actually had me fooled, Master. For a moment I thought our mutual respect was broken.  :-\

See the thing is I'm looking at it from perspective of casual movie goer. People understand sequel, prequel,  reboot but get confused with everything else.

Here is the thing about the casual movie goer who happens to be your average Joe Blow who isn't into this stuff as we are. They don't care about canon or even continuity. Ask any random schmuck off the street, and they'll assume AvP is somehow connected with Prometheus. Most casual movie goers just don't care, and it's something which I've always known. It's just common sense, really.

What the original poster is asking is if AvP can be tied in with either franchises, or if it's a separate universe altogether. And what I assume we're supposed to do is answer it in the best way possible.


happypred
Aug 28, 2014, 07:11:30 AM
Reply #7 on: Aug 28, 2014, 07:11:30 AM
Fire & Stone is basically saying "yes, Aliens, Predator, Prometheus, and AvP form one integrated universe"

As for the predalien's "abilities"...I mean come on, is the predalien's method of reproduction really sillier than egg-morphing...turning a person into an egg?


RakaiThwei
Aug 28, 2014, 07:29:59 AM
Reply #8 on: Aug 28, 2014, 07:29:59 AM
Fire & Stone is basically saying "yes, Aliens, Predator, Prometheus, and AvP form one integrated universe"

No, not really.. Especially when Sebela himself has stated at SDCC that the AvP movies are non-canon with the Fire and Stone storyline. Do you need me to pull up a link?

http://comicsbeat.com/sdcc-14-dark-horses-aliens-predator-prometheus-and-beyond-panel/

Whereas the AvP films were more like Aliens in the Predator universe, this new take appears to be vice versa.. more like Predators in the Prometheus universe.

« Last Edit: Aug 28, 2014, 07:35:07 AM by RakaiThwei »

happypred
Aug 28, 2014, 07:34:54 AM
Reply #9 on: Aug 28, 2014, 07:34:54 AM
No, not really.. Especially when Sebela himself has stated at SDCC that the AvP movies are non-canon with the Fire and Stone storyline. Do you need me to pull up a link?

I'm not talking about the films, I'm talking about the three franchises

Fire & Stone has a Prometheus miniseries, a Predator one, an Aliens one, and an AvP one. They all tie together. That's what I mean.

The Aliens miniseries and the AvP miniseries don't occur in separate universes.   


RakaiThwei
Aug 28, 2014, 07:40:24 AM
Reply #10 on: Aug 28, 2014, 07:40:24 AM
I'm not talking about the films, I'm talking about the three franchises

Fire & Stone has a Prometheus miniseries, a Predator one, an Aliens one, and an AvP one. They all tie together. That's what I mean.

The Aliens miniseries and the AvP miniseries don't occur in separate universes.   

The original poster is asking about the movies, so we are talking about the movies. Alien vs. Predator didn't officially become a franchise until 2004, I mean sure you could make an argument about the comics and the AvP franchise being around since 1989 and you would be by all means right but officially speaking, the franchise didn't come around until ten years ago.

So either two things.. either there is more than one AvP universe.. Or the films didn't happen at all and I am most certainly hoping for the former rather the latter. You can have separate and parallel universes being labeled under the same franchise. Again, look at Godzilla and Halloween.. Shit, even look at King of Fighters. That series has alternate realities but they're all part of the same franchise.

Like I said Whereas the AvP films were more like Aliens in the Predator universe, this new take appears to be vice versa.. more like Predators in the Prometheus universe.

« Last Edit: Aug 28, 2014, 08:12:10 AM by RakaiThwei »

happypred
Aug 28, 2014, 09:06:12 AM
Reply #11 on: Aug 28, 2014, 09:06:12 AM
The original poster is asking about the movies, so we are talking about the movies.

In that case, only Fox knows the answer to that question. AvP has Weyland and AvP-R has Yutani

That would suggest they're happening in the Aliens universe. As fans, we're free to speculate but without any sort of official Fox statement, there's no way to say for certain. I'd argue that unless there's a Fox statement to the contrary, the AvP films should be considered as set in the same universe. The inclusion of Weyland and Yutani is meant to convey that 


RakaiThwei
Aug 28, 2014, 09:19:34 AM
Reply #12 on: Aug 28, 2014, 09:19:34 AM
In that case, only Fox knows the answer to that question. AvP has Weyland and AvP-R has Yutani

This is true, and Prometheus also has Weyland as well. Having asked Paul Tobin where the AvP movies fit anywhere in the canon, even he couldn't answer that question either due to breach of contract, or he genuinely didn't know as his answer was essentially speaking: "Go knock on Fox's door.. And bring beer, they like beer."

So really, shit if anyone knows..  :-\

That would suggest they're happening in the Aliens universe. As fans, we're free to speculate but without any sort of official Fox statement, there's no way to say for certain. I'd argue that unless there's a Fox statement to the contrary, the AvP films should be considered as set in the same universe. The inclusion of Weyland and Yutani is meant to convey that 

That would be true, or rather a parallel Aliens universe which would be extremely similar but somewhat different to the Prometheus/Alien universe. Either that.. or the AvP movies didn't happen. Which.. admittedly would leave a bitter taste in my mouth. Of course I could do without Requiem due to it's flaws, despite me enjoying the movie. I wouldn't mind three separate but similar universes, I mean I could do without Super Predators and Engineers, despite me liking the latter quite a lot.

But so far with Fox's involvement in the expanded universe, so far it seems to be that they want to wash their hands of the AvP movies.. the only indication which suggest they doing something with that franchise and continuity is the Halloween Haunted Nights attraction, and of course the merchandise dedicated to the AvP movies. I highly doubt we will see a third AvP movie. However I am in full agreement that all we can do is speculate until Fox releases a statement.

And want to know something? That fills me with a sense of anxiousness. Not necessarily the good kind.

« Last Edit: Aug 28, 2014, 09:22:11 AM by RakaiThwei »

Master
Aug 28, 2014, 12:58:26 PM
Reply #13 on: Aug 28, 2014, 12:58:26 PM
Chill man I'm  playing with you ;)

You actually had me fooled, Master. For a moment I thought our mutual respect was broken.  :-\

See the thing is I'm looking at it from perspective of casual movie goer. People understand sequel, prequel,  reboot but get confused with everything else.

Here is the thing about the casual movie goer who happens to be your average Joe Blow who isn't into this stuff as we are. They don't care about canon or even continuity. Ask any random schmuck off the street, and they'll assume AvP is somehow connected with Prometheus. Most casual movie goers just don't care, and it's something which I've always known. It's just common sense, really.

What the original poster is asking is if AvP can be tied in with either franchises, or if it's a separate universe altogether. And what I assume we're supposed to do is answer it in the best way possible.
I consider you a friend Rakai, even if we're constantly disagreeing.
Maybe I  didn't used the best description. I was taking about fans but not as hard core like us. Like my brother. He likes those films allot and was with me in cinema on both AvP, Ps and Prometheus. Some bullshit reboots and  multiverses would piss people like him.


RakaiThwei
Aug 28, 2014, 02:16:22 PM
Reply #14 on: Aug 28, 2014, 02:16:22 PM
I consider you a friend Rakai, even if we're constantly disagreeing.

At least we can also discuss our agreements intelligently and be rational about it. So I consider you a friend as well!  ;D

Maybe I  didn't used the best description. I was taking about fans but not as hard core like us. Like my brother. He likes those films allot and was with me in cinema on both AvP, Ps and Prometheus. Some bullshit reboots and  multiverses would piss people like him.

When you put it that way, fair enough. Of course I still vouche for the idea of a multiverse as it would organize things and make things easier for fans which of the canons to accept. Canon debates would be shoved into a corner, but as it is.. All we can do is speculate right now on the placement of the AvP films. As you say, it's either canon or it's not. And I'm actually afraid of the latter.

As for a reboot.. Eventually, there will be an Alien or Predator reboot. More likely for Predator since there doesn't seem to be strong continuity ties with any of the movies as there is for Alien. Of course, we also have a likelier chance for an AvP reboot. Of course, I would prefer an AvP3 where it continues the storyline where the first two AvP movies left off.. OR.. a replacement sequel which overrides Requiem but still keeps in mind of the first AvP. Still would prefer an AvP3.


 

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