AVP: part of the canon, or a separate universe?

[SiL]

Except the scene in the film where they explain that an android created the Alien.

[Frosty Venom]

A very ambiguous scene that explains David created the Xenomorphs of Planet 4 nothing more. Anything else could be labelled as fan-theory.

[yhe1]

Except the scene in the film where they explain that an android created the Alien.

We been through this. Even if Ancient xenomrophs exists per the titan books, David can still create another xenomorph later.

[SiL]

A very ambiguous scene that explains David created the Xenomorphs of Origae-6 nothing more. Anything else could be labelled as fan-theory.

It's not ambiguous at all. He walks you past all of his different stages, explains the process, and then reveals his final creation. He explains how he made a new species. He explains how obsessed he is with creation. There is nothing the film could've done to make it more explicit short of him crash landing the Derelict himself.

Calling the scene ambiguous is

(lying or blissful ignorance - take your pick)

EDIT

More to the point -- this is all irrelevant anyway. The point being made, time and time again, is that the company doesn't consider the movies all canon to each other. That's it. People can argue whether Aliens are two years old or twenty thousand years old, but the only important factor is "No, the company does not agree that they're all relevant to each other."

Whether that matters is, equally, beyond the point.

[SM]

A very ambiguous scene that explains David created the Xenomorphs of Origae-6 nothing more. Anything else could be labelled as fan-theory.

A film is not "fan theory".

[Frosty Venom]

A very ambiguous scene that explains David created the Xenomorphs of Origae-6 nothing more. Anything else could be labelled as fan-theory.

A film is not "fan theory".

What? I don't know how you got film = fan theory from that.
What I meant was David created the Xenomorphs on Planet 4, yes. But to say that he had anything to do with the derelict on LV-426 or that the film makes it impossible for Xenomorphs to come about under different circumstances somewhere else in the universe is also fan-theory.

[The Old One]

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I'm with ya Turok and I give you props for clearly expressing your arguements in a level-headed manner, even when you're copping lot of sh!tty response such as "AVP = non-canon because SM said".

Level headed? Are you f**king joking?

I'm with ya Turok and I give you props for clearly expressing your arguements in a level-headed manner, even when you're copping lot of sh!tty response such as "AVP = non-canon because SM said".

It's not me saying it though.

People want to know what's considered canon and what's not.  I'm in position to tell them.  Then it's the predictable f**kwittery of 'I don't like that' (you're not obliged to), 'there are no contradictions' (lying or blissful ignorance - take your pick), 'the Weyland's are related' (they're demonstrably not), and 'David didn't create the Aliens because AvP' (in spite of Covenant).

Rinse.  Repeat.

[SM]

A very ambiguous scene that explains David created the Xenomorphs of Origae-6 nothing more. Anything else could be labelled as fan-theory.

A film is not "fan theory".

What? I don't know how you got film = fan theory from that.
What I meant was David created the Xenomorphs on Origae-6, yes. But to say that he had anything to do with the derelict on LV-426 or that the film makes it impossible for Xenomorphs to come about under different circumstances somewhere else in the universe is also fan-theory.

Because you insist only claiming what is shown in Covenant only pertains to the Aliens in that film and no others.  The latter part of that statement is fan theory.

And those Aliens aren't from Origae-6.  They never got to Origae-6.

[Xenomrph]

A very ambiguous scene that explains David created the Xenomorphs of Origae-6 nothing more. Anything else could be labelled as fan-theory.

A film is not "fan theory".

What? I don't know how you got film = fan theory from that.
What I meant was David created the Xenomorphs on Origae-6, yes. But to say that he had anything to do with the derelict on LV-426 or that the film makes it impossible for Xenomorphs to come about under different circumstances somewhere else in the universe is also fan-theory.

Because you insist only claiming what is shown in Covenant only pertains to the Aliens in that film and no others.  The latter part of that statement is fan theory.

The converse is also true, since Covenant doesn't address what we're shown in 'Alien'.

[TurokSwe]

You do not even realize that Charles Bishop and Peter are basically the same character, do you?

Frankly SiL is right, you are so focused on being right that you forget to weigh the ideas.

It like you don't even hear me. There is NOTHING that would Charles and Peter "the same character". Would you please elaborate. Weighing the evidence is exactly what I did from the very start. Please read my OP.

Peter was born in 1990 and founded Weyland Corporation in 2012, whereas Charles founded Weyland Industries sometime in the 1960s-70s and died in 2004. There is no contradiction, they could easily exist as two different iterations of the very same company.

But with no explanation of why the same company would need to be founded twice, and why the foundation of the latter version makes no mention of the former.

What Fox thinks is clearly reflected in their products, as I explained in my OP.

Their current products reflect that they don't consider AvP relevant to the Alien franchise.

(Foundation dates besides, Covenant shows Aliens don't exist until the 2100s.)

It's quite reasonable to suggest that Charles death might have had a detrimental effect on the company, and so once Peter became of age he rejuvenated the company as a new iteration. Also, on the very contrary, their current products reflect quite clearly that they do consider AVP relevant, and Covenant didn't at all show that "Aliens didn't exist until the 2100's", all of which has already been addressed in my OP (which people refuse to read for some reason).

[The Kurgan]

Please read my OP.

People did. It is just not the indisputable truth you claim it is. Regardless how often you claim it.

[TurokSwe]

That you're too arrogant to concede the point speaks volumes. You don't care about logic and facts, you care about being right. And they're not the same thing.

He is starting to really remind me of someone as well.


@Turokswe
Whatever your personal canon is, it is up to you but when it comes to what is officially canon, then Fox has the last word, its up to them. You can't misinterprete their intentions based on older products, their views on canon changes. You can choose to ignore it all like Xenomrph said and just get on with life but it won't change what it officially is. You don't have to like it but there it is.

Fox indeed has the last word, and my OP makes it abundantly clear that they indeed have not rejected anything from the canon, much less AVP (and I'm not ignoring anything that anybody has said in this entire thread, unlike some other people, but I'm addressing their responses according to what they give me). Likewise, you may not like it my friend, but, uh, well there it is.

[The Old One]

Everyone's read your OP at this point, just because no-one's quoting it doesn't mean no-one's replying to it. Despite what you seem to believe, your OP isn't infailable. In fact it's premise: that 20th Century Fox considers all twelve films canon is demonstrably incorrect. Accept that and maybe you'll find someone more willing to engage with your theorising than thus far.

Until then, peace- I'm out and I'd advise everyone else to do the same as the last six pages are nearly identical in their content.

[TurokSwe]

(Foundation dates besides, Covenant shows Aliens don't exist until the 2100s.)

Very true.

Except that's not true (as explained in my OP) and you will need to provide evidence for that claim.

FOX's stance on "canon" is so fluid as to be meaningless on an end-user level. There were dozens of comics and videogames and the like that were "officially canon" for decades, and all of a sudden they're "not canon" (which, when you truly stop and think about the ramifications, means literally nothing). Then FOX said "okay here's the line in the sand where 'official canon' starts", but then Alien Covenant comes out and outright contradicts a bunch of those "officially canon" items, and then releases even more that are extremely likely to be ignored/contradicted if more movies come out. So at best you've got things that are contradictory but still officially canon, or at least a constantly shifting goalpost that makes the concept meaningless.

I have to begrudgingly believe in this. There is no canon "bible" being strictly followed over at Fox. Fox was this close to allowing test audiences decide if filmed scenes of Ellen Ripley or Amanda Ripley would appear in the end of "The Predator", ultimately tying the Alien canon back into AVP.

Nope. The only reason AVP was retconned out is because Ridley wanted it out. If the next director wants it back in, making lore that much more convoluted, I truly believe Fox won't give a sh*t.

Noting that AVP was never "retconned" to begin with, I simply has to agree with all that was said here.

Not when you got both both Covenant and Ridley saying David created the Alien. The shadow trilogy was canon, it was meant to be part of the new EU after Fox rebooted it but Covenant has made a mess of those plans.

Ridley is the only one even suggesting the concept of David as creator, but it isn't supported anywhere else, much less in the movie itself (as already explained).

Its not up to ripley, its up to fox. If it was up to ridley fire and stone would not have been made

Word!

Ridley was given free reign on the IP when it came to covenant, at least that is what I heard. Ridley says a lot of things but right now he is saying David created the Alien and that does matter, it counts as a source. It might change in the future. Fox probably shares the same view by allowing Covenant to be made otherwise they would have intervened.  Also rember that new info usually overrides old info. Covenant = New. Shadows/FSLD = Old.

It doesn't really count at all in the grand scheme of things, especially not when he's being contradicted by his own products. Trust me, Fox could care less if Ridley wants David to be the creator, they will do as they please and place the Alien anywhere on the timeline. Noting that they probably won't let him make any more movies.

This was debated before, ancient xenomorphs showing up contradicts no part in covenant

Exactly.

The debate pretty much showed that it only doesn't contradict it if you ignore the film and substitute your own interpretation of events.

But the film doesn't even establish David as the creator, it leaves the issue up to interpretation, and other works contradict the idea of David as creator (eg. the official novel of Covenant and the home video release of Prometheus). You don't have to ignore anything, you simply need to put it all in context, so it turns out David is merely producing his very own variants of Xenomorphs, not creating the species as a whole.

It may contradict ridley's intent, but it does not contradict the movie

Thank you!

@Turokswe
Whatever your personal canon is, it is up to you but when it comes to what is officially canon, then Fox has the last word, its up to them. You can't misinterprete their intentions based on older products, their views on canon changes. You can choose to ignore it all like Xenomrph said and just get on with life but it won't change what it officially is. You don't have to like it but there it is.

The "problem" with this line of thinking is the apparent begrudging resignation that the "official canon" somehow matters, or somehow matters more than what you choose to believe. That's not what I'm saying at all.

Their current products reflect that they don't consider AvP relevant to the Alien franchise.

Which current products? Just because there aren't AvP comics or novels on the shelves at this very moment doesn't mean they don't support AvP. We still get merchandise constantly (including merchandise about the AvP movies specifically), and we just got an expansion to a boardgame which features Predators fighting colonial marines from 'Aliens'.

(Foundation dates besides, Covenant shows Aliens don't exist until the 2100s.)

'Alien' shows that they predate this, though, and the (canon) novelization of 'Alien Covenant' supports this.

[insert "And here.... we... go" gif here]

No, the titan stuff is still canon

And yet Covenant is canon as well, just shows you how much Fox cares about having a credible continuity on their so called canon entries. 

If those are still currently considered canon by Fox then I guess they haven't yet realized the contradiction between Covenant and the Titan Trilogy.

Or, far more likely, they don't care.

Ridley was given free reign on the IP when it came to covenant, at least that is what I heard. Ridley says a lot of things but right now he is saying David created the Alien and that does matter, it counts as a source.

A "source" is some sort of licensed, officially produced form of media (a movie, a game, a comic, whatever). Things Ridley Scott says in interviews are none of these.

Also rember that new info usually overrides old info. Covenant = New. Shadows/FSLD = Old.

This is a common misconception, and we have no indication that it's true. As I mentioned several pages ago, if you're going by FOX's "official canon", there is no ranking system and things haven't been excised by newer materials. 'Out of the Shadows' and Covenant are both "officially canon", full stop, all contradictions included. F&S/L&D/Rage War are still "officially canon", full stop, despite mixing Predators into the Alien universe and despite Ridley Scott's opinions on AvP as an idea.

And that's why, as Voodoo Magic recognized, the idea of an "official canon" is a nonsense idea at the audience level, and no one should be expected to follow it.

This! Agreed! ^^

[yhe1]

Honestly, I feel the only issue is that just because you can make charles bishop weyland and peter weyland work, it does not mean they are in the same universe.