“You lose it here, you’re in a world of hurt.”
This line spoken by Blain, played by the charismatic actor Jesse Ventura in the 1987 classic film Predator, may never be more appropriate than it is today regarding the Predator franchise.
So much is going on with Predator right now. The fifth film in the movie franchise titled “Skulls” is slated to go into production this June. The first Predator on-going Marvel Comic series in history is slated to begin this November. And within a couple weeks, a large anniversary update is expected for the Predator: Hunting Grounds video game.
And it all can come to a screeching halt with one swing of a judge’s gavel, with the news of original Predator creators James E. Thomas and John C. Thomas suing Disney to reclaim the rights to their otherworldly hunter that became famous back in the Summer of 1987.
First reported by The Hollywood Reporter, the Thomas Brothers are seeking to reclaim Predator under copyright law’s termination provision, which permits creators to regain ownership of properties they have created after 35 years. And the Thomas Brothers’ legal council is claiming the effective termination date for Disney’s rights over the property is this Saturday, April 17th, and they’re suing to stop everything Disney has in the works.
The Thomas brothers are legally represented by Marc Toberoff who is known for representing the original “Friday the 13th” creator Victor Miller in a similar case, that has sadly tied up that franchise in legal red tape for years, paralyzing content for fans, and is a case that is currently under appeal.
Disney is represented by their own superstar legal eagle Daniel Petrocelli, who fought for the rights of Superman years ago for Warner Bros.
Both lawyers have won various copyright battles, but in the meantime, will the Predator fans lose? Only time will tell.
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Honestly, if they did end up getting the rights back and shopping them around, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what would happen.
The fact that we're getting another movie so soon after the failure of The Predator feels like a sign that Disney is moving fast to try and make money from the property (yes it was conceived before the Fox takeover, but if they'd wanted to they could have canned it like they did with various other Fox movies, but instead they chose to move forward). It was part of the deal when they paid to buy Fox and it's now a part of their catalogue, and something they clearly want to profit from. If they no longer owned it, and had to pay to get the rights back to make any more movies/comics/whatever, there's no way they would. It's a franchise that has value, but when you're talking about the same company that now owns Marvel, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, even Alien, they're not going to bother.
Obviously that would leave other studios to potentially pick it up, but I'm just not confident that any of them would. Not after they look at how less than amazingly well the last movie did.
Of course it's too early, but he's been in the industry for over 30 years and knows how messy these legal things can get. I trust his experience and knowledge what goes behind the scenes, and if he doesn't feel good about it, then neither do I.
Ok, I just took it that the first film is still tied somehow to their screenplay. Thus is a base product for the franchise.
Meaning Skulls being a future production, which could be halted? Guess we'll all find out soon or come June when it's supposed to shoot.
If the Thomas Brothers win, they'll only have 100% rights of future productions, not pre-existing.
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"Under the termination provisions, prior "derivative works" "can continue to be" distributed as before. 17 U.S.C. § 203(b)(1). Plaintiffs' recovery of the U.S. copyright to their Screenplay therefore does not prevent Defendants (Disney) or their licensees from continuing to exploit prior derivative works, including the original Predator film and TCFFC's five sequel films."
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And let's all note for the canon record, that even the Thomas Brothers considers the AvP films as sequels!
It means that no one can
rerelease the first film andprofit on new products without their say.The difference will be if they were hired to write it or had it already written.
They also did wrote Predator 2, when whole design of the creature was well known. I don't know if it counts, I won't pretend I know the US law.
If Thomas brothers wins, what they get? Only the bases of the first script? I mean, the visual of the creature and the universe built over the years is also included?
So even Disney's lawyers seem to concede this will happen - the real question is when.
First thing's first. Predator films have all been very profitable long-term. Even if the initial box-office tally of say "The Predator" was 160 million off an 88 million budget and you factor promotional dollars and say hey - that's not very good - these films make revenue year, upon year, upon year with sales and rentals, both consumer and industry. And apparently to directors like Predator 2's Stephen Hopkins, those residual checks they get are pretty good!
Second, none of us should use definitives like SKULLS "will be canceled". This whole problem might be pushed out to June 2022 or January 2023.
Disney appears to be first and foremost challenging the validity of the Thomas Brothers claimed copyright termination date of April 17th 2021.
Now it appears in the lawsuit that the Thomas Bros perhaps are even conceding that date may not hold up, so they included alternative dates in case "in the unlikely event the Court finds the Termination Notice is invalid, Plaintiffs' Second Termination Notice or Third Termination Notice is valid, with effective termination dates of June 14, 2022 or January 13, 2023, respectively."
So this is something we might not be dealing with as fans until 2022 or 2023 and Skulls, Predator comics, everything will continue this year without any threat of injunction.
It could go the other way but I think that one will go Disney's way.
Man, I just don't feel good about any of this.
It's gonna be interesting to watch.
Yes, it's basically a history lesson why the US Copyright Law was changed:
"6. The termination right was specifically enacted by Congress in recognition of the unequal bargaining position of authors and to enable them to finally secure the financial benefits of their work, sold inevitably before its value could be fairly tested in the marketplace. See H.R. Rep. No. 94-1476, at 124"
I'm definitely not predicting or pretending to know the Thomas Brothers' motives at all. All I was saying is they can stop all future business with Disney in the US if they win. They can produce a new Predator television show here in the US, or a film here in the US, both with different studios, and then those studio would negotiate a split foreign distribution deal / joint production if they wanted to release it overseas. They might just agree to split the production costs and keep their respective territory based revenue. I think there's already been precedent for that.
We'll see!
Whether the Brothers intend to use the law to shut down all future productions is unknown; we don't know their motive. But they hardly win from this if they just use it to take the rights and shut down future productions. Disney is still free to exploit existing derivations to its heart's content, as well as retaining the rights in overseas territories. Skulls is already in production and wouldn't be affected.
I'd like to imagine they're not being petty, and just want a bigger slice of the considerable pie their spec script created.
EDIT
On further reading Skulls might be affected, but the wording would allow Disney lawyers to argue the exploitation began before the date and so is protected under the provision of "existing derivative work".
I read it too and I believe your second post still has some inaccuracies SiL.
The law they are invoking is The Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. §203(a), that provides authors with the inalienable right to recapture the copyright to their creative work, after a lengthy waiting period, by statutorily terminating without cause prior transfer(s) of copyright, provided advance notice of termination is given and accepted for recordation by the U.S. Copyright Office.
They're pursuing ownership back. But this only applies to US copyright, not foreign.
It's not to obtain better bargaining power. It's to obtain all the power in the US on future projects, the actual US copyright which won't require them to bargain at all. They can dictate US license fees as they see fit.
If the Thomas Brothers win, they don't have to license Predator to Disney in the US for new Predator projects. Now the law allows Disney the exclusive opportunity to negotiate a US re-license of Predator with the Thomas Brothers after the Thomas Brothers served notice, but that ends the effective date of the termination. And that would also be recognizing and accepting the Thomas Brothers claim, like Skydance did with Cameron on Terminator.
Basically the law they're invoking was designed to allow authors to re-negotiate their cut for their works after the market value of their work was proved with time.
This is the key thing. When they sold Hunters and royalties were assigned, nobody had any idea if it would take off and spawn a decades-long franchise, or crash and burn. Time has proved the market value of the piece; this law is specifically designed to allow authors to have better bargaining power to get more of the value their IP created.
So is it about money?
Sure.
But it's about giving original authors the legal framework to get better compensation should their works spawn multi-million/billion dollar franchises, without being stuck with pennies-and-cents royalties grossly disproportionate to the actual value of the piece.
Also worth noting, this law is not applicable to work-for-hire. The reason the Thomas Brothers have this option is they wrote Hunters on spec, not commission.
It also states that the Brothers have presented two alternate dates, in 2022 and 2023, in response to Disney's claims that they're actually entitled to a longer waiting period (they're not, but they figured they'd hedge their bets and present the options just in case).
So if the Brothers win the case and Predator dries up, it's because Disney/Fox is too f**king stingy to pay their licenses, not because they lost the rights.
Is it 100% for sure? Any law citations for it that specific music and creature design are part of it?
I have noticed you retracted your comment. Anyways it will be interesting to find out how it really works.
So Disney is the real Weyland Yutani?
While I'm apt to agree with you, we don't know what the intentions are of guys who haven't done a dang thing in Hollywood in ages. For all we know they could be harboring some deep pettiness and decide, "Screw all of you! No one is getting this franchise!" and then live out the rest of their days sitting on property they don't intend on doing anything with other than gaining royalties. Also, going back into the hands of the originators isn't always a good thing. Am I saying Disney is any better? No. But at least we were set to have SOMETHING soon. A new film. New comics. Figures still going strong. And now all of that is about to come to a screeching halt.
Actually some of their ideas for SW comic books are quite good. Especially those with Darth Vader.
But what is good for them if the rights cover only a space hunter concept under name "Hunter"? Not the music, not a creature design.
"someone"
With all that said, don't think that happens and we see this franchise come to a halt starting with the new film and comics. This will get as messy as F13.
Just completely different flavours of awful in the writing department.
20th Century Fox's reactionary, you only need look at their X-Men film line up to see that fact, Disney's stubborn and sticks to their guns consistently, when that's good it is good (Marvel Studios) when that's bad it is bad (Star Wars).
I probably could have gotten into The Predator as some silly, schlocky installment if it was as well-directed as Resurrection was. But the directing there was just as awful as the script, which is a real shame as I tend to love Shane Black.
Well, when they made something genuinely interesting with Star Wars in the form of The Last Jedi, the internet screamed at them incessantly and caused them to back peddle in a rather crass attempt to course correct with the shit show that is The Rise of Skywalker. I'll give them some props for taking the risk in the first place with TLJ, but those brownie points there do get stripped away after having seen the way they followed up on that movie.
I hope that the latest DLC/Update is worth it and strong enough for us in the long run....for however long this stop will keep us down.
hehehehehe fried daffy
Yeah you're probably right, I'd forgotten about the Penguin deal. My mind is just going to "worst case scenario" right now.
Fingers crossed indeed that we get that Hunting Grounds April DLC update soon, since at least then it'll hopefully be an indication of whether or not everything going forward from tomorrow is going to be put on hold!
I can't even wrap my mind around what both of you are suggesting.
The court rules for the plantiffs. And here's your rights to "Hunter" John and Jim.
But we sued to get Predator back!
I'm sorry, the original script you sold was called "Hunter".