AVP: part of the canon, or a separate universe?

[The Old One]

My point is why do "the rules" matter? And by your estimation, what's the difference between having to abide by something, and being engendered to?

Personally? Selfish reasons, disregarding media I can't stand. ACM's a good example, no postulating on the fate of the Derelict discussions contaminated by ACM's irrelevance for instance. It's probably useful at a continuity level for those developing stories for the universe too.

Being engendered/encouraged isn't the same as being enforced. That's the difference.

[TurokSwe]

Prometheus was made strictly based on Alien.

They considered the first AvP film while writing the story.

They chose to ignore information in the first AvP and put contradicting information in their film.

They considered it and actively chose to contradict it. That's wrong with what you're saying.

I have already addressed all of this in my OP. As far as I'm aware, they considered AVP at one point when Lindelof mention Charles Weyland from AVP and Scott made it clear he had no intention of continuing from where AVP left off. Noting that this merely means a shift in focus rather than disregarding AVP as canon, and they most certainly did not introduce any "contradictions" whatsoever. Noting that SM stated that they didn't consider AVP when developing new Alien stories, yet here you and me are talking about just one example where SM is incorrect (other examples being Fire and Stone, Life and Death, The Weyland-Yutani Report, and The Rage War trilogy). You're making it worse for yourself here.

[Xenomrph]

Agreed, I can see where you're coming from. However it seemed to me as though he merely assumed that something wasn't canon because of how they develop new stories, rather than being directly told by Fox what the deal actually is.

Oh, no, he actually genuinely consults with FOX on stuff.

My point is why do "the rules" matter? And by your estimation, what's the difference between having to abide by something, and being engendered to?

Personally? Selfish reasons, disregarding media I can't stand. ACM's a good example, no postulating on the fate of the Derelict discussions contaminated by ACM's irrelevance for instance. It's probably useful at a continuity level for those developing stories for the universe too.

Being engendered/encouraged isn't the same as being enforced. That's the difference.

Well I mean, selfish reasons are totally okay - disregard what you don't like. Re: ACM and the Derelict, if people want to talk about the fate of the Derelict and cite ACM (or the Technical Manual), I'm really okay with that.
You're right that it can be useful at a continuity level for story development, but at the same time it's equally useful to disregard things if it results in the story that the storyteller wants to tell - case in point, Ridley Scott ignoring whatever he feels like, up to and including his own movies.

I wouldn't even say things are "encouraged", or at least people should temper their encouragement. As for enforcement, there is none (and a lot of people don't realize that).

Prometheus was made strictly based on Alien.

They considered the first AvP film while writing the story.

They chose to ignore information in the first AvP and put contradicting information in their film.

They considered it and actively chose to contradict it. That's wrong with what you're saying.

I have already addressed all of this in my OP. As far as I'm aware, they considered AVP at one point when Lindelof mention Charles Weyland from AVP and Scott made it clear he had no intention of continuing from where AVP left off. Noting that this merely means a shift in focus rather than disregarding AVP as canon, and they most certainly did not introduce any "contradictions" whatsoever. Noting that SM stated that they didn't consider AVP when developing new Alien stories, yet here you and me are talking about just one example where SM is incorrect (other examples being Fire and Stone, Life and Death, The Weyland-Yutani Report, and The Rage War trilogy). You're making it worse for yourself here.

A lot of it does come down to FOX being cavalier and contradictory with their storytelling. There are multi-part crossovers that include Aliens and Predators, but they can be seen as independent enough that if one wants to ignore, say, F&S/L&D, they can do so without somehow ruining their enjoyment of the narrative. It's not like a viewer's enjoyment or understanding of the Alien movies hinges on appreciating 'Predator', or vice versa.

Like I said, FOX says and does things, feel free to do your own thing and enjoy what you like, namaste.

[yhe1]

So hicks is still dead in fox canon?

[SiL]

and they most certainly did not introduce any "contradictions" whatsoever.

They introduced an entirely new version of the founder, and foundation, of the Weyland corporation. That's contradictory information.

Noting that SM stated that they didn't consider AVP when developing new Alien stories, yet here you and me are talking about just one example where SM is incorrect

"New" in this case is after Prometheus (and even Covenant, with its continued continuity-changing shenanigans). Fire And Stone, Life and Death are crossovers, not stories "just" in the Alien or Predator franchise, and so aren't relevant even to your own point.

[Samhain13]

So hicks is still dead in fox canon?

Currently... for now.

[TurokSwe]

and they most certainly did not introduce any "contradictions" whatsoever.

They introduced an entirely new version of the founder, and foundation, of the Weyland corporation. That's contradictory information.

Noting that SM stated that they didn't consider AVP when developing new Alien stories, yet here you and me are talking about just one example where SM is incorrect

"New" in this case is after Prometheus (and even Covenant, with its continued continuity-changing shenanigans). Fire And Stone, Life and Death are crossovers, not stories "just" in the Alien or Predator franchise, and so aren't relevant even to your own point.

I already addressed the claimed "contradiction" between Charles Weyland and Peter Weyland in my OP and it wasn't at all contradictory (so please read it, but in short, Peter Weyland stepped unto the scene AFTER Charles Weyland). Fire and Stone and Life and Death came after Prometheus and tells a larger story through the Aliens, Predator, AVP, and Prometheus licenses and they are very much relevant and contradictory to SM's statement.

[yhe1]

You are arguing different things

One is whether you can "make it all work or not", this was debated before, you can.

The other is FOX's canon, which is that there are two universes. One has Charles Bishop Weyland, the other has Peter weyland.

[TurokSwe]

You are arguing different things

One is whether you can "make it all work or not", this was debated before, you can.

The other is FOX's canon, which is that there are two universes. One has Charles Bishop Weyland, the other has Peter weyland.

But there is more support to a single shared universe as opposed to two or more separate universes. Charles and Peter aren't even contradicting each other.

[yhe1]

You are arguing different things

One is whether you can "make it all work or not", this was debated before, you can.

The other is FOX's canon, which is that there are two universes. One has Charles Bishop Weyland, the other has Peter weyland.

But there is more support to a single shared universe as opposed to two or more separate universes. Charles and Peter aren't even contradicting each other.

No, its just that Predators exists in both universe. Ahab and Scar are in different universes.

[Oasis Nadrama]

I think you're entirely wrong, TurokSwe, I think there's a direct contradiction despite all the plaster one can add to cover the plothole, the Weyland plothole is still there, under the plaster, and you don't have the technology to fill it since it's two kilometers large and deep enough to go through Earth core.

I think there are multiple continuities which can be deduced from the movies and I also think none of these make any sense. For all the shit I give Cameron, for all the disdain I have for the man humanly and politically, he produced the only really consistent sequel. Alien and AlienS work perfectly together, at least visually and facts-wise. As far as canon is concerned, they can form a single consistent canon.

But add any other movie and things start falling apart.

However, I LOVE the way you're approaching thing. I like your obstinate development of an alternate consistency reuniting the Prometheus and the AVP strains. I appreciate the lengths you're willing to reach, the commitment to the details, and your passion in defending your vision.

Thank you for such a honest and complete personal canon.

[TurokSwe]

You are arguing different things

One is whether you can "make it all work or not", this was debated before, you can.

The other is FOX's canon, which is that there are two universes. One has Charles Bishop Weyland, the other has Peter weyland.

But there is more support to a single shared universe as opposed to two or more separate universes. Charles and Peter aren't even contradicting each other.

No, its just that Predators exists in both universe. Ahab and Scar are in different universes.

Proof? Otherwise I call nonsense.

I think you're entirely wrong, TurokSwe, I think there's a direct contradiction despite all the plaster one can add to cover the plothole, the Weyland plothole is still there, under the plaster, and you don't have the technology to fill it since it's two kilometers large and deep enough to go through Earth core.

I think there are multiple continuities which can be deduced from the movies and I also think none of these make any sense. For all the shit I give Cameron, for all the disdain I have for the man humanly and politically, he produced the only really consistent sequel. Alien and AlienS work perfectly together, at least visually and facts-wise. As far as canon is concerned, they can form a single consistent canon.

But add any other movie and things start falling apart.

However, I LOVE the way you're approaching thing. I like your obstinate development of an alternate consistency reuniting the Prometheus and the AVP strains. I appreciate the lengths you're willing to reach, the commitment to the details, and your passion in defending your vision.

Thank you for such a honest and complete personal canon.

With all due respect, that makes absolutely no sense. Would you care to explain the supposed "contradiction"?

[SiL]

I already addressed the claimed "contradiction" between Charles Weyland and Peter Weyland in my OP and it wasn't at all contradictory (so please read it, but in short, Peter Weyland stepped unto the scene AFTER Charles Weyland). Fire and Stone and Life and Death came after Prometheus and tells a larger story through the Aliens, Predator, AVP, and Prometheus licenses and they are very much relevant and contradictory to SM's statement.

Peter founded the company, he didn't step in.

Those crossovers aren't contradictory when the statement is that they don't currently consider them all canon to each other.

If you'd just drop the part where you insist you're right about what FOX thinks there'd be no argument. The rest of your monolithic text can stand. It's literally just the part where you say "It's clear they consider them canon to each other" that's wrong.

That you're too arrogant to concede the point speaks volumes. You don't care about logic and facts, you care about being right. And they're not the same thing.

[Oasis Nadrama]

Turok, there's two foundation dates for the Weyland-Yutani and two founders.

Now as I said, you can patch it up, you can even patch it up in multiple ways - people can say, or even officially establish if they are directors, producers or writers of the Alien franchise, that C.B. and Pee are from the same family, and Pee got part of the assets or whatever... They can also say Peter Weyland got inspired by Charles Bishop and took him as a model and changed his family name for Weyland or whatever...

Seriously in fiction you can repair almost EVERY plothole if you've got skill in basic bullshitology. Like, I could make up a thousand reasons for the EEV cryotubes to change between AlienS and Alien 3, too.

But those are still, originally, plotholes. Continuity problems which need to be retroactively justified by some impressive consistency gymnastics.

[TurokSwe]

I already addressed the claimed "contradiction" between Charles Weyland and Peter Weyland in my OP and it wasn't at all contradictory (so please read it, but in short, Peter Weyland stepped unto the scene AFTER Charles Weyland). Fire and Stone and Life and Death came after Prometheus and tells a larger story through the Aliens, Predator, AVP, and Prometheus licenses and they are very much relevant and contradictory to SM's statement.

Peter founded the company, he didn't step in.

Those crossovers aren't contradictory when the statement is that they don't currently consider them all canon to each other.

If you'd just drop the part where you insist you're right about what FOX thinks there'd be no argument. The rest of your monolithic text can stand. It's literally just the part where you say "It's clear they consider them canon to each other" that's wrong.

That you're too arrogant to concede the point speaks volumes. You don't care about logic and facts, you care about being right. And they're not the same thing.

Peter was born in 1990 and founded Weyland Corporation in 2012, whereas Charles founded Weyland Industries sometime in the 1960s-70s and died in 2004. There is no contradiction, they could easily exist as two different iterations of the very same company. The fact that you're resorting to insults and desperation seems to indicate you don't have any strong argument at all. What Fox thinks is clearly reflected in their products, as I explained in my OP.

Turok, there's two foundation dates for the Weyland-Yutani and two founders.

Now as I said, you can patch it up, you can even patch it up in multiple ways - people can say, or even officially establish if they are directors, producers or writers of the Alien franchise, that C.B. and Pee are from the same family, and Pee got part of the assets or whatever... They can also say Peter Weyland got inspired by Charles Bishop and took him as a model and changed his family name for Weyland or whatever...

Seriously in fiction you can repair almost EVERY plothole if you've got skill in basic bullshitology. Like, I could make up a thousand reasons for the EEV cryotubes to change between AlienS and Alien 3, too.

But those are still, originally, plotholes. Continuity problems which need to be retroactively justified by some impressive consistency gymnastics.

Again, I have already addressed this in my OP. The fact that there are two founders and two foundation dates for each company means nothing unless they overlap and demonstrate to be contradictory to each other, but they don't. Peter is born in 1990 and could easily be the son of Charles, and Charles dies in 2004 and leaves Weyland Industries without its original founder, and eight years later Peter founds Weyland Corporation in 2012 (and still keeps the old Weyland Industries active). There is no contradiction, this issue is far too easily resolved.