Quote from: Jonjamess on Jul 20, 2023, 07:56:19 AMHe's just absolutely not getting it, or I believe he's deliberately not addressing the point out of stubbornness.
As has been mentioned 3 billion times nobody is saying Burke doesn't work for WY. We are saying the movie explicitly tells us Burke uses his position in WY to act 'independently' from what they have specifically asked him to do.
He uses his WY position to get a place on the team going to investigate the loss of contact with a colony. His reasons are that WY has a financial interest in the colony. WY as a company does not think Aliens have overrun the colony, again this is explicitly implied due to the fact they allow the USCM to investigate rather than do it themselves.
Burke believes Ripley might be telling the truth, INDEPENDENTLY of WY as a company (who don't believe her). So he siezes that opportunity to tag along, telling his employers he should go as they have large sums of money invested in the colony and its in their best interests.
He does NOT tell his employers he is going there to try to get them an Alien. He doesn't tell them this because they don't believe the Alien is real and they would likely deny his request to be part of the team or at least challenge his integrity which in turn puts his job at risk. This is what we mean by working alone, WY has no knowledge of his personal intentions for going.
Nobody I'm the company has ordered Burke to go get them an Alien. Nobody in the company has instructed the colonists to go to the Derelict (only Burke does this, again without informing his employees or at least keeping them properly in the loop).
Why would Burke be so worried that Ripley was going to expose him if he had a huge multi billion influential company behind him? Because he is solely responsible for 157 colonist deaths (he has no scapegoat, he can't testify the company made him do it etc). Because they didn't!
I'm really becoming confused as to what is so hard for Ralfy to understand regarding this? It's not complicated.
He works for W-Y, according to Cameron.
He attends the inquiry not as a private individual but as a company representative.
He contacts the colony manager, who's an employee of W-Y, as head of the research division and not as a private individual.
He joins the military rescue mission not as a private individual but representing W-Y, which owns the colony facilities, and for which the colony manager, the Jorden couple, and others are employees.
When he argues against nuking the colony facilities, he does so as a company official, not as a private individual.
When he orders Bishop to prepare the facehuggers for company labs, he does so as a head of the research division of W-Y, not as a private individual who can manage to borrow company labs for his personal use.
The argument that contrarians were making wasn't that Burke was acting independently as head of the research division of W-Y. Rather, he was working as a private individual (not as a company official) who would receive all revenues.
Every point you made repeats mine and goes against what contrarians say.
Quote from: oduodu on Jul 20, 2023, 12:53:07 PMsomeone please make a gif of someone eating popcorn. head back on the couch throwing popcorn into the air hoping it will fall in his mouth.
maybe ralfy is a genius. i'm in the mood for buying the novelisation of aliens and reading it 5 times.
This isn't rocket science, LOL. The points I made come from the movie as well as Cameron's commentary.
Maybe one can come up with other interpretations based on other content of the franchise, but that would be off-topic given the thread title. I thought it best to stick to the first two movies and commentaries on those.
Quote from: S.E.B. on Jul 20, 2023, 06:07:36 PMI mean, IF the Company suspected there were actual alien organisms running around Hadley's Hope, ALIEN 3 shows us what the response from the Company would have looked like. Tons of scientists, heavily armed private commandos in padded armor meant to deal with wild hostile organisms, recording equipment, nets, cages and probably other equipment and weapons specifically deployed to be used in order to capture and contain their prized Xenomorph specimen.
Again, there's nothing in the actual movie that even imples that W-Y higher-ups were in on Burke's plan, or that they instructed Burke what to do once he arrived at LV-426. Nothing in the actual movie that implies that highly ranked USCMC officers were in on whatever it was that Burke and/or the Company were planning on doing.
Now, if any of the future Alien installations confirm your interpretations on-screen, then yeah, congratulations - your hunches and and thoughts are now the official explanation to what lead up to the Acheron operation, its execution and aftermath. But until then, your interpretation of Aliens is just another interpretation - an interpretation that is not backed up by what we see in the actual movie.
Likely Burke was chosen as head of the research division of W-Y because he was the right man for the job. In which case, that would explain why they didn't need to know, especially if something goes wrong. LOL.
In the real world, it's part of initiative and being "pro-active." That's why the OP's reference to the Reagan years was more than appropriate, i.e., I don't think Ronnie knew about what Ollie was doing until it was too late, but Ollie and others were tasks specifically with acting independently, and following only a general strategy given by the heads.
In this case, the general strategy was to monetize alien finds. Why? Because the bio-weapons division needs them. So go out there and make us money, young man, and you'll make a lot, too. We'll handle financing and admin, while legal figures out how to get those pesky ICC officials out of the way.
My point is that when you interpret this movie, you do so given what has been taking place in reality. That's why when you look at the special order in the first movie, Ash secretly implementing them, not only Burke and the Jordens but even Ripley assured of percentages from monetization, the formation of a bio-weapons division that allows business to profit and the military to gain, a point man who's also head of research, etc., then you can't help but go beyond the Dick Dastardly storyline of individuals working alone and companies being neutral, and see what happened during the Vietnam war (which Cameron alluded to in the movie), the Reagan years (with Irangate, etc.), and the military industrial complex. There are even more if you view the video shared in the first post of this thread.
Given that, why didn't W-Y and even the military prepare? I'm guessing that they anticipated that only one alien was involved, i.e., the colonists wouldn't be foolish enough to return to the alien ship. In short, what happened to the colony is similar to what happened to the Nostromo crew, except that the colony has more pesonnel and are also likely armed (i.e., it's also administered by the ECA, which would have had internal security). In which case, sending one squad and a tech would have looked appropriate.
What about W-Y? Since it's a mission that's under military jurisdiction, then it would have not been likely for W-Y to send scientists and techs (according to one wiki, the Sulaco could have probably carried up to 90 personnel). That would have meant sending only Burke (the head of the division tasked to research on alien organisms and tech, among others) to check on the status of the colony personnel who are W-Y employees plus the colony facilities, which are owned by W-Y. (The Marines, in turn, would be working in this case for the ECA, to ensure the safety of all colonists, employees or not.)
But why a unit specializing in "bug hunts" using "state-of-the-art firepower"? It's logical to do so to capture one alien, which they probably assumed was all there was. This might also explain why several of the Marines were overconfident and complacent, seeing this as just another "routine" mission.
Thus, everyone could do what they needed to do: the Marines secure the safety of the colonists by killing the alien and protecting W-Y facilities, Burke acquiring organisms for company labs, and ECA having its colony secure.
That leaves us with Ripley. Why did they need her to come along? It's possible that they thought something worse could have happened or that Ripley didn't tell them everything about the aliens or that Burke could find a way to appease her by showing that they could come out rich from this discovery. There are many points to consider about that and scenes from the movie (which were already discussed) showing that it was pointless to include her or that Burke was mistaken about bringing her along, but I'll discuss those next time.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jul 20, 2023, 07:43:23 PMQuote from: S.E.B. on Jul 20, 2023, 06:07:36 PMI mean, IF the Company suspected there were actual alien organisms running around Hadley's Hope, ALIEN 3 shows us what the response from the Company would have looked like. Tons of scientists, heavily armed private commandos in padded armor meant to deal with wild hostile organisms, recording equipment, nets, cages and probably other equipment and weapons specifically deployed to be used in order to capture and contain their prized Xenomorph specimen.
Again, there's nothing in the actual movie that even imples that W-Y higher-ups were in on Burke's plan, or that they instructed Burke what to do once he arrived at LV-426. Nothing in the actual movie that implies that highly ranked USCMC officers were in on whatever it was that Burke and/or the Company were planning on doing.
Now, if any of the future Alien installations confirm your interpretations on-screen, then yeah, congratulations - your hunches and and thoughts are now the official explanation to what lead up to the Acheron operation, its execution and aftermath. But until then, your interpretation of Aliens is just another interpretation - an interpretation that is not backed up by what we see in the actual movie.
OMG thank you. Exactly this. Once they realised the Alien was real they were all over it. But Aliens (the movie explicitly tells you they didn't think at that moment it was real).
Otherwise like you say they would have sent their own ship to Hadley's Hope. I have said this before but Ralfy won't care!
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jul 20, 2023, 11:24:24 AMQuote from: Jonjamess on Jul 20, 2023, 07:56:19 AMHe's just absolutely not getting it, or I believe he's deliberately not addressing the point out of stubbornness.
As has been mentioned 3 billion times nobody is saying Burke doesn't work for WY. We are saying the movie explicitly tells us Burke uses his position in WY to act 'independently' from what they have specifically asked him to do.
He uses his WY position to get a place on the team going to investigate the loss of contact with a colony. His reasons are that WY has a financial interest in the colony. WY as a company does not think Aliens have overrun the colony, again this is explicitly implied due to the fact they allow the USCM to investigate rather than do it themselves.
Burke believes Ripley might be telling the truth, INDEPENDENTLY of WY as a company (who don't believe her). So he siezes that opportunity to tag along, telling his employers he should go as they have large sums of money invested in the colony and its in their best interests.
He does NOT tell his employers he is going there to try to get them an Alien. He doesn't tell them this because they don't believe the Alien is real and they would likely deny his request to be part of the team or at least challenge his integrity which in turn puts his job at risk. This is what we mean by working alone, WY has no knowledge of his personal intentions for going.
Nobody I'm the company has ordered Burke to go get them an Alien. Nobody in the company has instructed the colonists to go to the Derelict (only Burke does this, again without informing his employees or at least keeping them properly in the loop).
Why would Burke be so worried that Ripley was going to expose him if he had a huge multi billion influential company behind him? Because he is solely responsible for 157 colonist deaths (he has no scapegoat, he can't testify the company made him do it etc). Because they didn't!
I'm really becoming confused as to what is so hard for Ralfy to understand regarding this? It's not complicated.
I think the single most obvious factor that Ralfy glosses over to suit his argument is that if Burke is retrieving an Alien on company orders as Ralfy would have you believe, then how the f**k does Burke hope to SELL it to the company? 😂 You don't buy what you already own.
"Hey, we got an alien through ICC quarantine as we planned, let's buy it from ourselves".
Muppet.
But we've (I've) told him 10 times Burke wasn't trying to sell the Alien! He was just trying to get a promotion, favour and a massive paycheck.
Just because W-Y wasn't still sure there were aliens means they didn't care. Why else would they have a bio-weapons division?
They could have sent their own ship, but didn't need to because the Marines did. Also, who is the main customer of the bio-weapons division if not the military? Who provides security to a colony administered by ECA if not the same?
Finally, you don't get a promotion and a massive paycheck out of the blue. You do so by "selling" the alien.