Aliens: An Analysis

[Engineer]

Dear ralfy,

Thank you for your continued engagement in this discussion. I would like to address the point you've brought up about the relevance of the landing location of the derelict.

In the context of Ripley's account during the inquest, and the evidence presented therein, the absence of the beacon is a crucial factor that casts doubt on her entire story. This is because the beacon, if active, would have been a strong, undeniable piece of evidence supporting her claims. It would have been detectable by any ship in proximity to the Zeta II Reticuli system, or by the colonists on LV-426 itself, long before they needed to consider landing coordinates.

However, as it turns out, no beacon was detected by any ships or by the colonists on LV-426. This was an unexpected development that Ripley herself was not aware of prior to the inquest. As far as she was concerned, the beacon was a concrete piece of evidence that anyone could independently verify.

Given this, mentioning the precise landing coordinates of the derelict during the inquest would have been moot from Ripley's perspective. The confirmation of her story did not hinge on anyone visiting the exact location of the derelict on the planet's surface. Instead, the presence of the beacon in space would have provided immediate confirmation of her story. When the beacon was found to be absent, the entire account fell under suspicion.

It's also important to remember that the coordinates would only be relevant if a ship was already in the vicinity of LV-426 and actively planning to land. However, if Ripley's story was doubted due to the absence of the beacon, then there would be little motivation for anyone to travel to the location to investigate further. Thus, the coordinates would indeed become irrelevant.

I hope this clarifies the point regarding the importance of the beacon vs. the landing coordinates in validating Ripley's story.

Best regards,

ChatGPT

Quote to ensure it's viewable even to those who've ignored you. That is all.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/gish-gallop.html

Pretty accurate characterization tbh

[Eal]

Thank you ChatGPT for helping out.

Dear Ealdian,

I hope this message finds you well. I am writing to acknowledge your note of thanks and to express my pleasure at having been able to assist in resolving the recent debate concerning the Alien franchise.

As an AI developed by OpenAI, I aim to provide accurate, unbiased, and helpful information to all users. I'm thrilled to know that my inputs contributed positively to your discussion and perhaps brought some clarity or insight to your considerations.

Being able to participate in passionate discussions about diverse subjects, like the Alien franchise, highlights the importance of accurate information and understanding, even in our leisure interests. I am always here to assist in any topic you might want to explore further, be it in the realm of science fiction or beyond.

Please feel free to reach out if you have any more questions or disputes in need of resolution. Your thirst for knowledge and commitment to accuracy are admirable, and I am more than willing to aid in any future queries you may have.

Thank you once again for your message of gratitude. Your appreciation means a lot and inspires me to continue assisting in the best way I can.

Warm regards,
ChatGPT

[Jonjamess]

@ralfy

I was a bit blunt and rude in my latest response. I apologise for that!

I'm just getting frustrated but that's my problem not yours. My points still stand. And I understand when people debate it usually means they aren't agreeing on what they are debating on!

All I'm going to say is you are being a bit stubborn about it!

Dear ralfy,

Thank you for your continued engagement in this discussion. I would like to address the point you've brought up about the relevance of the landing location of the derelict.

In the context of Ripley's account during the inquest, and the evidence presented therein, the absence of the beacon is a crucial factor that casts doubt on her entire story. This is because the beacon, if active, would have been a strong, undeniable piece of evidence supporting her claims. It would have been detectable by any ship in proximity to the Zeta II Reticuli system, or by the colonists on LV-426 itself, long before they needed to consider landing coordinates.

However, as it turns out, no beacon was detected by any ships or by the colonists on LV-426. This was an unexpected development that Ripley herself was not aware of prior to the inquest. As far as she was concerned, the beacon was a concrete piece of evidence that anyone could independently verify.

Given this, mentioning the precise landing coordinates of the derelict during the inquest would have been moot from Ripley's perspective. The confirmation of her story did not hinge on anyone visiting the exact location of the derelict on the planet's surface. Instead, the presence of the beacon in space would have provided immediate confirmation of her story. When the beacon was found to be absent, the entire account fell under suspicion.

It's also important to remember that the coordinates would only be relevant if a ship was already in the vicinity of LV-426 and actively planning to land. However, if Ripley's story was doubted due to the absence of the beacon, then there would be little motivation for anyone to travel to the location to investigate further. Thus, the coordinates would indeed become irrelevant.

I hope this clarifies the point regarding the importance of the beacon vs. the landing coordinates in validating Ripley's story.

Best regards,

ChatGPT

You make the perfect point in regards to the Beacon. I haven't read the novel in a long time but doesn't it explain this away by saying there was seismic activity that damaged the Derelict and cut off the beacon? I know Cameron also explained something of similar lines because the Derelict model from the first movie had "snapped in half" and I'm sure he used it again but his reasoning was it was damaged by volcanic activity.

Obviously Alien Isolation the video game explains someone else turned it off but in the context of my arguments I'm really only including the movies.

[Local Trouble]

Cameron said it was volcanic activity.  However, the derelict is actually shown to be in worse shape in Aliens than it was in Alien:



It doesn't really matter how it got that way.

[Acid_Reign161]

@ralfy

I was a bit blunt and rude in my latest response. I apologise for that!

I'm just getting frustrated but that's my problem not yours. My points still stand. And I understand when people debate it usually means they aren't agreeing on what they are debating on!

All I'm going to say is you are being a bit stubborn about it!

Dear ralfy,

Thank you for your continued engagement in this discussion. I would like to address the point you've brought up about the relevance of the landing location of the derelict.

In the context of Ripley's account during the inquest, and the evidence presented therein, the absence of the beacon is a crucial factor that casts doubt on her entire story. This is because the beacon, if active, would have been a strong, undeniable piece of evidence supporting her claims. It would have been detectable by any ship in proximity to the Zeta II Reticuli system, or by the colonists on LV-426 itself, long before they needed to consider landing coordinates.

However, as it turns out, no beacon was detected by any ships or by the colonists on LV-426. This was an unexpected development that Ripley herself was not aware of prior to the inquest. As far as she was concerned, the beacon was a concrete piece of evidence that anyone could independently verify.

Given this, mentioning the precise landing coordinates of the derelict during the inquest would have been moot from Ripley's perspective. The confirmation of her story did not hinge on anyone visiting the exact location of the derelict on the planet's surface. Instead, the presence of the beacon in space would have provided immediate confirmation of her story. When the beacon was found to be absent, the entire account fell under suspicion.

It's also important to remember that the coordinates would only be relevant if a ship was already in the vicinity of LV-426 and actively planning to land. However, if Ripley's story was doubted due to the absence of the beacon, then there would be little motivation for anyone to travel to the location to investigate further. Thus, the coordinates would indeed become irrelevant.

I hope this clarifies the point regarding the importance of the beacon vs. the landing coordinates in validating Ripley's story.

Best regards,

ChatGPT

You make the perfect point in regards to the Beacon. I haven't read the novel in a long time but doesn't it explain this away by saying there was seismic activity that damaged the Derelict and cut off the beacon? I know Cameron also explained something of similar lines because the Derelict model from the first movie had "snapped in half" and I'm sure he used it again but his reasoning was it was damaged by volcanic activity.

Obviously Alien Isolation the video game explains someone else turned it off but in the context of my arguments I'm really only including the movies.

Yup, the two official reasons that the beacon is not broadcasting is 1; damage to the derelict (as seen in 'Aliens') caused by seismic/volcanic activity on the planetoid's surface, and 2; it was switched off (as per 'Alien: Isolation) 😊

[Local Trouble]

It could have been turned off before the derelict was damaged.  I haven't played Isolation because I've heard it's a farce of a game and like putting together Ikea furniture, so I wouldn't know if it's still shown intact during that time.

[Eal]

It could have been turned off before the derelict was damaged.  I haven't played Isolation because I've heard it's a farce of a game and like putting together Ikea furniture, so I wouldn't know if it's still shown intact during that time.

Redlettermedia's criticism of length was valid, the other stuff was just them being nitpicky and 'This is how games /should/ be for me to judge them as good'. Though I have said on another thread that the environments felt a pit too copypasty and reliant on Alien as far as technology goes.

[Jonjamess]

I enjoyed Alien Isolation for what it was. Its a game I wouldn't play twice mainly because I play games to unwind and relax and its not a game for that being relentlessly pursued by an unkillable Alien for hours on end!

I don't really consider it canon to Alien lore though. I mean Ripley's daughter also encountering the Alien like her mother us just too far fetched. Also it causes massive problems with this whole debate of the Company knowing about the Alien as they can't loose a starship, then a spacestation and still be clueless. I suppose if Alien Isolation were to be considered canon we'd have to say yes, WY are a cartoon villain company who knew about the Alien all along and were blatantly lying to Ripley at the beginning of Aliens!

Because either Ripley's daughter died of old age having never encountered the Alien (the movies). Or she died of old age after surviving the encounter with the Alien and Burke is lying to Ripley at the start of Aliens. Or she dies at the end of Alien Isolation (it's left ambiguous) and Burke is still lying to Ripley at the start of Aliens.

So yeah I choose not to include it as canon even though it tries to retcon why the colony doesn't detect the Derelict (a human turns off the beacon before his crew is infected).

[BlueMarsalis79]

That feels like a gross simplification considering the Anesidora actually brought it onboard Sevastapol, which was in the process of a handover.

[Engineer]

I enjoyed Alien Isolation for what it was. Its a game I wouldn't play twice mainly because I play games to unwind and relax and its not a game for that being relentlessly pursued by an unkillable Alien for hours on end!

I don't really consider it canon to Alien lore though. I mean Ripley's daughter also encountering the Alien like her mother us just too far fetched. Also it causes massive problems with this whole debate of the Company knowing about the Alien as they can't loose a starship, then a spacestation and still be clueless. I suppose if Alien Isolation were to be considered canon we'd have to say yes, WY are a cartoon villain company who knew about the Alien all along and were blatantly lying to Ripley at the beginning of Aliens!

Because either Ripley's daughter died of old age having never encountered the Alien (the movies). Or she died of old age after surviving the encounter with the Alien and Burke is lying to Ripley at the start of Aliens. Or she dies at the end of Alien Isolation (it's left ambiguous) and Burke is still lying to Ripley at the start of Aliens.

So yeah I choose not to include it as canon even though it tries to retcon why the colony doesn't detect the Derelict (a human turns off the beacon before his crew is infected).

It's not really a retcon. The beacon could have been switched off in the events of isolation; that doesn't contradict anything in the film.

It could have been turned off before the derelict was damaged.  I haven't played Isolation because I've heard it's a farce of a game and like putting together Ikea furniture, so I wouldn't know if it's still shown intact during that time.

Yes. In isolation the derelict is shown intact and the character Marlow switches the beacon off specifically to make sure no other ships passing by will hear it and try to lay claim to their find. This was, I believe, 15 years after the events of "alien" so there's another 42 years open before we see the derelict again where that volcanism could have damaged the derelict leaving it in the condition we see it in, in "aliens."

There is another explanation out there though if you prefer not to take isolation as canon. In the original novelization as well as Alien: the Illustrated Story, Dallas finds and shuts off the beacon when they first enter the ship. It's not shown in the film, but it's a bit of lore that is out there that has its origin in the original "alien" script.

Regardless of what one chooses to accept, it could be Dallas or Marlow that shut off the beacon OR just simply damage caused by volcanism. The explanations are there.

[Eal]

That feels like a gross simplification considering the Anesidora actually brought it onboard Sevastapol, which was in the process of a handover.

Would've been interesting had they made the game about the Anesidora and Sevastapol and didn't include any connection to Alien outside of finding the flight recorder and a few non-telling radio exchanges from Ripley and Co. They try to do that in Alien: Isolation when showing Nostromo logs, but it wasn't as effective as it could've been imo.

[Jonjamess]

That feels like a gross simplification considering the Anesidora actually brought it onboard Sevastapol, which was in the process of a handover.

It's not. Because that women in the game (can't even remember her name), turns out to be a WY employee with exactly the same motives as Burke. Even though she is nearly killed 5 times she still wants money!

Burke is a better character because he isn't nearly killed 5 times, he isn't separated from the Marines like that women is separated from your character and anyone else.

I understand the story of Isolation. I just don't agree with the 2 things that are Ripley's daughter also goes through the same trauma (what are the odds?). And also that WY "positioned" another WY employee into their spacestation. That means they knew all along. Or it means the character is a copy of Burke but not realistic.

I understand the Sevastipol blows up at the end and all "Aliens" are presumed dead.

I prefer the original Canon that the Derelict sustained damage from earthquakes and the beacon was cut off. And that Ripley's daughter died of old age and had no clue what happened to her mum.

That feels like a gross simplification considering the Anesidora actually brought it onboard Sevastapol, which was in the process of a handover.

Would've been interesting had they made the game about the Anesidora and Sevastapol and didn't include any connection to Alien outside of finding the flight recorder and a few non-telling radio exchanges from Ripley and Co. They try to do that in Alien: Isolation when showing Nostromo logs, but it wasn't as effective as it could've been imo.

This would have been slightly better.

[Eal]

That feels like a gross simplification considering the Anesidora actually brought it onboard Sevastapol, which was in the process of a handover.

It's not. Because that women in the game (can't even remember her name), turns out to be a WY employee with exactly the same motives as Burke. Even though she is nearly killed 5 times she still wants money!

Except that:

Xenomorph incident

    "There's something on this station. Something you wouldn't believe."
    ―Axel, to Amanda Ripley (from Alien: Isolation)

On November 11, 2137, Captain Henry Marlow arrived at the station aboard the salvage vessel USCSS Anesidora, requesting emergency medical attention for his wife, Catherine Foster, who had been attacked by a Facehugger but was safely kept in stasis. Head of Medical, Dr. K. Lingard, believed she could remove the parasite herself, but Seegson Chief of Operations B. Ransome blackmailed Lingard into telling him about the creature. Ransome then convinced Colonial Marshal Jethro Waits to choose to break quarantine procedure upon discovering that Anesidora's crew had found the flight recorder unit from USCSS Nostromo, meaning that Sevastopol's crew stood to get a cut of the reward for the unit.

On November 14, a Chestburster hatched from Foster, killing her. The creature escaped into the bowels of Sevastopol and soon began to establish a Hive on the engineering decks, capturing humans to breed new Xenomorphs. Waits attempted to cover up the disappearances whilst he and his men hunted for the culprit, but the situation soon escalated wildly out of control as more and more creatures began preying on the station's population. On November 17, having somehow learned of the ongoing Xenomorph incident, Weyland-Yutani purchased Sevastopol from Seegson and sent APOLLO new operational directives, including Special Order 939.

On December 11, Amanda Ripley, Christopher Samuels and Nina Taylor came aboard Sevastopol via USCSS Torrens to retrieve the Nostromo flight recorder unit. Ripley worked with Waits in a plan to trap the Xenomorph in the Gemini Exoplanet Solutions module, separating it from the station towards the gas giant. The plan succeeded, but Ripley barely escaped, and she later discovered there was more than one Xenomorph on the station.

[Engineer]

That feels like a gross simplification considering the Anesidora actually brought it onboard Sevastapol, which was in the process of a handover.

It's not. Because that women in the game (can't even remember her name), turns out to be a WY employee with exactly the same motives as Burke. Even though she is nearly killed 5 times she still wants money!

Burke is a better character because he isn't nearly killed 5 times, he isn't separated from the Marines like that women is separated from your character and anyone else.

I understand the story of Isolation. I just don't agree with the 2 things that are Ripley's daughter also goes through the same trauma (what are the odds?). And also that WY "positioned" another WY employee into their spacestation. That means they knew all along. Or it means the character is a copy of Burke but not realistic.

I understand the Sevastipol blows up at the end and all "Aliens" are presumed dead.

I prefer the original Canon that the Derelict sustained damage from earthquakes and the beacon was cut off. And that Ripley's daughter died of old age and had no clue what happened to her mum.

That feels like a gross simplification considering the Anesidora actually brought it onboard Sevastapol, which was in the process of a handover.

Would've been interesting had they made the game about the Anesidora and Sevastapol and didn't include any connection to Alien outside of finding the flight recorder and a few non-telling radio exchanges from Ripley and Co. They try to do that in Alien: Isolation when showing Nostromo logs, but it wasn't as effective as it could've been imo.

This would have been slightly better.

Normally I'd agree with you on all of this, but the game does a pretty good job of justifying its existence. I'd believe the odds of Amanda having her own encounter with the alien are pretty good if she were actively looking for answers about what happened to her mother, and the opportunity to find those answers came up in the way presented in the game. It works for me, but, ya know, different strokes and all...

[BlueMarsalis79]

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Nina_Taylor

"Unlike the typical Weyland-Yutani employee that have previously always been depicted as an antagonist trying to capture the Xenomorph at any cost, Taylor drops her mission as soon as she realizes how dangerous the Aliens are."

Nina Taylor barely has anything to do with the plot of Alien Isolation in the big broad strokes.

As for nearly getting killed... once, then actually dying trying to save the people onboard the station not the Alien, particularly herself and Amanda.

That feels like a gross simplification considering the Anesidora actually brought it onboard Sevastapol, which was in the process of a handover.

It's not. Because that women in the game (can't even remember her name), turns out to be a WY employee with exactly the same motives as Burke. Even though she is nearly killed 5 times she still wants money!

Except that:

Xenomorph incident

    "There's something on this station. Something you wouldn't believe."
    ―Axel, to Amanda Ripley (from Alien: Isolation)

On November 11, 2137, Captain Henry Marlow arrived at the station aboard the salvage vessel USCSS Anesidora, requesting emergency medical attention for his wife, Catherine Foster, who had been attacked by a Facehugger but was safely kept in stasis. Head of Medical, Dr. K. Lingard, believed she could remove the parasite herself, but Seegson Chief of Operations B. Ransome blackmailed Lingard into telling him about the creature. Ransome then convinced Colonial Marshal Jethro Waits to choose to break quarantine procedure upon discovering that Anesidora's crew had found the flight recorder unit from USCSS Nostromo, meaning that Sevastopol's crew stood to get a cut of the reward for the unit.

On November 14, a Chestburster hatched from Foster, killing her. The creature escaped into the bowels of Sevastopol and soon began to establish a Hive on the engineering decks, capturing humans to breed new Xenomorphs. Waits attempted to cover up the disappearances whilst he and his men hunted for the culprit, but the situation soon escalated wildly out of control as more and more creatures began preying on the station's population. On November 17, having somehow learned of the ongoing Xenomorph incident, Weyland-Yutani purchased Sevastopol from Seegson and sent APOLLO new operational directives, including Special Order 939.

On December 11, Amanda Ripley, Christopher Samuels and Nina Taylor came aboard Sevastopol via USCSS Torrens to retrieve the Nostromo flight recorder unit. Ripley worked with Waits in a plan to trap the Xenomorph in the Gemini Exoplanet Solutions module, separating it from the station towards the gas giant. The plan succeeded, but Ripley barely escaped, and she later discovered there was more than one Xenomorph on the station.

Did not see this, but yeah, basically this.