Aliens: An Analysis

[Xenomrph]

@Xenomrph We could use a hand here.

What's the issue?

[SiL]

Also also:

The chronology of the film supports Burke acting alone.

Ripley  arrives
Inquest
Burke sends colonists
Shit happens

He was in the room when Van Leuwen said he wasn't going to check the planet. Given the directors cut, that's exactly when he decided to check himself.

[ralfy]

You're not making any sense lol

Have fun with this

I explained each of my points clearly. If there's anything that you did not understand, then let me know, and I'll give you a simpler explanation.

I ain't picking this back up.

I think what you mean is that you want to back out.

I don't know how many different ways I can explain the obvious.

This totally reminded me of the very first line during the inquest meeting scene

"I don't understand this. We have been at this for three and a half hours. Now, how many different ways do you want me to tell the same story?"
-Ripley

Lmfao

What you need to look at is not the first line of the hearing but what happens right after the hearing.

She brings up the point of looking for the alien ship after is concluded and the file is closed; in short, when it's already too late and the investigation is closed.

Also, we're not sure if she even knows the location of the ship, as she asks van Leuwen after the hearing to "just check out LV-426." He dismisses her suggestion by stating that they don't have to do that because a colony had been there for two decades and that they never reported seeing an alien ship. The presence of a colony surprises Ripley, which means it was never brought up in the hearing. Why? Because had she raised the issue of the location of the ship during the hearing, then van Leuwen would have told her about the colony.

Get it? Her ignorance of the presence of the colony shows that the issue of the location of the ship was never discussed during the hearing; otherwise, van Leuwen would have brought up the fact about the colony during the same.

But here's the problem: Burke gave the grid reference of the location of the derelict ship to the colony. Where did he get that information if not from the hearing?

That means Ripley and the board knew about the location since they had access to the same deposition and her story, but for some weird reason Ripley didn't refer to it until the end of the hearing.

[Engineer]

She brings up the point of looking for the alien ship after is concluded and the file is closed; in short, when it's already too late and the investigation is closed.

The meeting was 3.5 hours lol we only saw the last 5 minutes or so.
You have no idea what was said during that time. You're saying ripley should have requested the investigation before they closed the file, but how do you know she didn't? Her, cornering van leuwen about it, doesn't mean it's the first and only time she had mentioned it, but it was the first situation where she could pry an answer out of someone without just being dismissed.

I explained each of my points clearly. If there's anything that you did not understand, then let me know, and I'll give you a simpler explanation.

Nah

[ralfy]

Because I need @Local Trouble to love me again:

If he had been working by himself, then that would mean that he was the only one who had access to the location, or he guessed it.

He was the only one who thought it was worth checking out.

If Van Leuwen requested it be checked out, it would be a huge security situations, as Burke says. But from Van Leuwen's perspective, Ripley wasn't credible -- the shuttle contained no sign of the Alien and the colony on the planetoid had been living there peacefully for decades. So why waste everyone's time and effort on it? She'd been asleep for 57 years, she was suffering PTSD and side-effects of long hypersleep.

Is it the right thing to have done?

Hell no, it's super irresponsible.

Does that mean he didn't do it?

Also no.

"Someone didn't do their job properly" is a perfectly valid explanation. We see it all the time in real life; investigations completely ruined because someone in charge didn't bother checking one piece of evidence that would've solved everything.

Van Leuwen decided Ripley was crazy based on everything else and didn't feel the need to be any more thorough about it. It doesn't need to go further than that.

Actually, Ripley also thought the same, which is why he asked van Leuwen to check out the rock. The problem is that she asked him to "just check out LV-426" after the the file is closed. That means the investigation is concluded.

Your next point implies that van Leuwen also knew about the location. But in the hearing he states that the flight recorder only states that the ship landed and then resumed course. No mention is made of the location of the landing. Had it been mentioned, then Ripley would have told them to check the location to confirm her story, and she would have been told about the colony. That would contradict what happened after the hearing as depicted in the movie.

Remember, the only piece of evidence that could prove Ripley's story is the location of the landing site, and that's likely not an estimated grid reference because they were homing in on transmission from a beacon. And yet the conclusion of the investigation and the dialogue right after it shows that even Ripley didn't bother to raise that point.

To recap,

Van Leuwen states that the logs only show that the ship landed and resumed course.

If the same logs state the location of the landing site, then Ripley would have told them to suspend the hearing and investigate the landing site first, as that's the only thing in the log that can support her story.

But that didn't happen because the hearing concludes that Ripley's story isn't true (except the part that her ship landed and resumed course).

Ripley then decides to ask them to check the rock for the alien ship AFTER the hearing is concluded. She's told that there's no need to do that because a colony had been there for two decades and didn't report on such a thing.

She accepts that, not having the common sense to note the colony didn't report on seeing the derelict because they had not been able to go to that specific site.

Later, Burke decided to do exactly that, give the grid reference to the colony and ask them to investigate. But that means that he had gotten the information from the hearing, which meant that Ripley and the board also had the same information, and that would have negated the points I raised above.

Also also:

The chronology of the film supports Burke acting alone.

Ripley  arrives
Inquest
Burke sends colonists
Shit happens

He was in the room when Van Leuwen said he wasn't going to check the planet. Given the directors cut, that's exactly when he decided to check himself.

For Burke to act alone, Ripley would have lacked common sense to require the board to investigate the location and thus prove her story. And if van Leuwen and the board also knew the location, that that would have meant they didn't bother to do what Burke did, which makes no sense as they would have made a lot of moolah from revenues gained from acquisition of alien artifacts and organism.

She brings up the point of looking for the alien ship after is concluded and the file is closed; in short, when it's already too late and the investigation is closed.

The meeting was 3.5 hours lol we only saw the last 5 minutes or so.
You have no idea what was said during that time. You're saying ripley should have requested the investigation before they closed the file, but how do you know she didn't? Her, cornering van leuwen about it, doesn't mean it's the first and only time she had mentioned it, but it was the first situation where she could pry an answer out of someone without just being dismissed.

I explained each of my points clearly. If there's anything that you did not understand, then let me know, and I'll give you a simpler explanation.

Nah

I'm talking about the discussion between Ripley and van Leuwen AFTER the hearing. Here's a recap:

The board concludes that Ripley's story cannot be proven, but decided not to penalize her for destruction of company property. Instead, her flight license is revoked, and she has to undergo periodic psych evaluation. In short, they consider her mentally disturbed.

Ripley then asks van Leuwen, again AFTER the hearing and the board closes the file, to "just investigate LV-426". Van Leuwen dismisses her, saying that they don't have to because they've had a colony there for decades and they never saw an alien ship. Ripley is surprised because she didn't know that there was a colony there.

Why is she surprised? Because the presence of a colony was never discussed during the hearing. Why wasn't it discussed? Because they never talked about the issue of the location of the landing. Get it? Had Ripley raised the location of the landing DURING the hearing, which is the only evidence available that could have proven her point, then van Leuwen would have talked about the colony, and she would have then been informed about it throughout.

BTW, she was dismissed by van Leuwen in that scene. Why? Because her requests come too late: the hearing has been concluded.

Thus,

Van Leuwen states that the flight recorder only mentions that Ripley's ship lands and then resumes courses. Had it also recorded the location of the landing, then she would have raised that during the hearing, and then would have heard about the presence of the colony from van Leuwen. Instead, she hears it for the first time AFTER the hearing, which means the point of the location of the landing is never discussed.

And yet Burke knows the location. Where did he get that information? If it came from the hearing, then that would have contradicted what took place during the hearing and after as depicted in the movie. If it didn't come from the hearing, and that supports what happened during the hearing (i.e., they never talk about the location because they had no info on it) but it also means that Burke guessed the location. LOL.

[Local Trouble]

And if van Leuwen and the board also knew the location, that that would have meant they didn't bother to do what Burke did, which makes no sense as they would have made a lot of moolah from revenues gained from acquisition of alien artifacts and organism.

Ah, I think I see the problem: ralfy still thinks "the board" was all Weyland-Yutani.  He doesn't know they were ICC, ECA, feds, insurance reps, etc.  He doesn't know that Burke was the company rep there.

@ralfy Van Leuwen did not work for Weyland-Yutani.  He was just an Interstellar Commerce Commission representative presiding over the inquest.  A government bureaucrat.  He didn't stand to make any "moolah" from the Alien.

[ralfy]

I think I have nothing more to add, and since I'm just repeating the same points to others who can't comprehend them, then I'll end with an imagined revision of the main story that implicitly reveals its flaws but also fixes them:

The only thing they recover is the flight recorder of the Nostromo that was uploaded to the lifeboat computer. During the hearing, they note that it reveals the location of the landing site, etc. No other logs were recovered from the Nostromo.

Since that's the only piece of evidence that can support her claims, Ripley asks them to investigate the location. She's told that there's a colony on the rock that can do that, and she asks them not instruct the colony not to enter the ship.

They do so, and the Jordens find the ship but because of greed the father enters it and gets infected.

The colony reports the finding to the company and requests for help repeatedly. They also report on the facehuggers, etc., until comms go down. Fearing the worst, the board reconvenes and mentions all of these to Ripley, stating that it wasn't their fault: the wildcat team didn't follow their instructions and get infected. They now ask Ripley for help because there might be some problems reported by the colony in final transmissions about the aliens that aren't seen in her deposition, and it appears that there are survivors. They intend to send an armed rescue expedition with Burke as the company and gov't representative and to work with her, the expedition adviser. In return, they will drop all potential liabilities against her concerning the Nostromo, etc.

Ripley fears that they will also use the rescue mission to retrieve alien organisms and artifacts, and thus risk infection for the team, but she wants to rescue any surviving colonists, if only to find some redemption from recurring nightmares and seeing no meaning in her life (with no surviving loved ones). In any case, she remains wary of Burke.

Because they have to move quickly, they could only scrounge up the military resources depicted in the film, including a greenhorn lieutenant (their actual commander was incapacitated due to an accident), which they hope to compensate with Alpone's experience, Ripley's advise, and any other information needed about the colony, etc., from Burke. Also, the marine team specializes in "bug hunts" but several are about to complete their tour of duty, which is why they appear not to take this mission seriously.

Given that, much of the remainder of the movie stays the same, except for the part where Ripley finds out about Burke's comms with the colony. That's no longer needed.

And if van Leuwen and the board also knew the location, that that would have meant they didn't bother to do what Burke did, which makes no sense as they would have made a lot of moolah from revenues gained from acquisition of alien artifacts and organism.

Ah, I think I see the problem: ralfy still thinks "the board" was all Weyland-Yutani.  He doesn't know they were ICC, ECA, feds, insurance reps, etc.  He doesn't know that Burke was the company rep there.

@ralfy Van Leuwen did not work for Weyland-Yutani.  He was just an Interstellar Commerce Commission representative presiding over the inquest.  A government bureaucrat.  He didn't stand to make any "moolah" from the Alien.

Actually, I never thought that. That's why I kept referring to company *and* government. Even the colony and atmosphere-scrubbing operation is a joint project between the two. This also explains why an armed expedition involving military resources appeared in the movie.

The "moolah" involves bioweapons and whatever could be gained from gain of function, from which the company would earn and the military (which is part of the government) would exploit, and where everyone along the food chain, from Ripley and her crew, the Jordens, Burke, and so on would get their respective cuts. This doesn't include the various investors who could earn from the same, not to mention divisions that could find any advanced tech from the derelict ship useful, as well as insurers that could cover the increased commerce stemming from such finds.

The reason why several reps from company and government as well as from others, like insurers, are in the board is because a company (and likely insured) ship and its cargo was destroyed, and there are claims of aliens. The problem is that the location of the landing, and thus of the alien ship, is assumed to have been been given in the deposition and/or the flight recorder, and thus raised in the hearing. Where else would Burke get his info? But the immediate aftermath of the hearing shows that that important piece of evidence was not raised.

Thus, the idea of a "security situation" becomes irrelevant because even others in the board would have known about that piece of info, and which is why it's highly improbable that Burke would have acted alone. At the same time, because a joint project is involved, then government would have worked closely with its partner, W-Y, in investigating the matter further. Hence, an expedition involved a company official and military personnel, etc.

[SiL]

We know checking the location wasn't raised during the inquiry because Ripley doesn't call back to it when confronting Van Leuwen. It's entirely possible the incredibly stressed, PTSD-ridden person who has been affected by hypersleep maybe didn't think to mention it while being grilled on the validity of her story. It's not the only thing she doesn't bring up; when Van Leuwen mentions that the investigation team found no trace of the Alien, she didn't respond with the grappling gun being jammed in the door, for example -- a detail that's present in the set at the start of the film.

But none of that means everyone else involved didn't consider it and dismiss the idea in light of all of the other lack of evidence. Ripley mentioning it doesn't magic it into existence, and it's clear the flight recorder and its data have been checked prior to the hearing.

They could have checked the location, but they didn't think it was worth it for a 57 year old cold case where there was no other reason to assume the story was credible.

The film is clear about what happens. If you think it's dumb, then that's all there is to it -- you think it's dumb, end of discussion. The film has no obligation to satisfy what you think is or isn't sensible.

That doesn't mean things don't happen how the film says they happen.

[Engineer]

I'm talking about the discussion between Ripley and van Leuwen AFTER the hearing.

I know, that's my point lol
You don't know anything about what was said before, and because of that, all of these assumptions you're making about the information being shared are exactly that. Assumptions. Speculation. So, when you're asking something like "how did they know *this* when they never mentioned it during the meeting?" My point is, how do you know it was never mentioned/discussed in the 3.5 hours that took place off screen? You don't. None of us do. It was off screen.

Ah, I think I see the problem: ralfy still thinks "the board" was all Weyland-Yutani.  He doesn't know they were ICC, ECA, feds, insurance reps, etc.  He doesn't know that Burke was the company rep there.

I thought someone already brought this detail up lol

[SiL]

It's worth mentioning that it's Ralfy himself who brought up earlier that all of the information covered in the hearing would have been established before the actual hearing.

The catch is that Ripley provided a deposition, which means the company and government were informed about what happened to Ripley even before the hearings began. That involves a lot of time, more than enough for the suits to contact the colony after receiving the initial report from Ripley.

So Ripley would've mentioned the landing. The hearing makes it clear they checked the flight recorder and saw, yes, the ship landed on the planet she said it did.

What he's choosing to ignore is the fact the film makes it clear that they decided it wasn't worth checking the landing site for a variety of reasons.

Burke would've had the information available to him. He would've seen that nobody else decided to check it, hence checking it himself.

[[cancerblack]]

I'm just repeating the same points to others who can't comprehend them

Jesus Christ lol.

Delusional.

[Kradan]

The irony is so thick you can cut with a butter knife

[ralfy]

We know checking the location wasn't raised during the inquiry because Ripley doesn't call back to it when confronting Van Leuwen. It's entirely possible the incredibly stressed, PTSD-ridden person who has been affected by hypersleep maybe didn't think to mention it while being grilled on the validity of her story. It's not the only thing she doesn't bring up; when Van Leuwen mentions that the investigation team found no trace of the Alien, she didn't respond with the grappling gun being jammed in the door, for example -- a detail that's present in the set at the start of the film.

But none of that means everyone else involved didn't consider it and dismiss the idea in light of all of the other lack of evidence. Ripley mentioning it doesn't magic it into existence, and it's clear the flight recorder and its data have been checked prior to the hearing.

They could have checked the location, but they didn't think it was worth it for a 57 year old cold case where there was no other reason to assume the story was credible.

The film is clear about what happens. If you think it's dumb, then that's all there is to it -- you think it's dumb, end of discussion. The film has no obligation to satisfy what you think is or isn't sensible.

That doesn't mean things don't happen how the film says they happen.

Exactly! Not only that, but had they raised it, then she would contested their refusal to investigate the landing site.

The claim that she was suffering from PTSD, etc., is questionable because she appeared very logical and even methodical during the hearing, countering each argument that board members raised. The irony is that none of the points mattered because they could not be proven by Ripley without the ship's logs. The only thing that could--the location of the ship--was not raised by the board or Ripley at all.

 Van Leuwen even mistakenly implies that the flight recorder--which for some reason mentions only that the ship landed and resumed course--should have contained records on encountering the hostile organism. But flight recorders don't that: they only record only vessel movement.

I'm not sure about the grappling gun, but I assume that had it jammed the door, then that would have left the latter partially open, and let out oxygen. I can only guess that after frying the alien, she would have reopened the door to release the gun and thus let the alien drift off in space, then made sure that the door was closed correctly.

The idea of not investigating a "cold case" is ridiculous as Ripley would have required it to prove her story and thus avoid penalty. In addition, this is a company which, with government, had been exploring hundreds of worlds, and looking for ways to exploit their resources and anything that they could find. That's why they were very keen on forcing the Nostromo crew to investigate such matters and to be penalized with forfeiture of benefits if they refuse to do so; in fact, it's even clearly stated in their contracts. That's also why some of the crew insisted that if they find something profitable then they'd get a cut; so did the Jordens, which implicitly accepted the job because they guessed that there was probably something valuable in the area, and that they would profit from it in part.

The question for the company would have involved whether to ask the colony to send a team to investigate the location, which given your reasoning would have been known not only by Burke but also by Ripley and the rest of the board, or to wait and send a better-prepared team.

[Engineer]

The irony is so thick you can cut with a butter knife

Or a pinky finger

[ralfy]

I'm talking about the discussion between Ripley and van Leuwen AFTER the hearing.

I know, that's my point lol
You don't know anything about what was said before, and because of that, all of these assumptions you're making about the information being shared are exactly that. Assumptions. Speculation. So, when you're asking something like "how did they know *this* when they never mentioned it during the meeting?" My point is, how do you know it was never mentioned/discussed in the 3.5 hours that took place off screen? You don't. None of us do. It was off screen.

Ah, I think I see the problem: ralfy still thinks "the board" was all Weyland-Yutani.  He doesn't know they were ICC, ECA, feds, insurance reps, etc.  He doesn't know that Burke was the company rep there.

I thought someone already brought this detail up lol

No, that's not your point. You kept insisting that what we saw was only the last few minutes of the hearing, whcih means from that we wouldn't be able to tell whether or not the location of the ship was discussed. What I was talking about was Ripley and van Leuwen's conversation after the hearing, which revealed that they didn't.

In fact, you're making the same mistake in this post. LOL.

As for your last point, I did that: I kept referring to the company and government, remember?