Noah Hawley Explains Why ‘Prometheus’ Isn’t “Useful” for His ‘Alien’ Prequel

[xShadowFoxX]

Well, of course Prometheus isn't self-consistent

Which is and has been the point the entire conversation. Thank you.

Not really. The original comment made was that goo's portrayal in the filmS (plural) was pretty consistent; I believe you replied to that persons comment replying "there was no consistency in Prometheus" thus yourself making it about a singular movie 😂 I personally agree with the original comment; it's consistent between the two movies. It either mutates or kills the infected. The outcome of those is dependent on circumstances.

Edit; here it is;

The films are consistent in their portrayal of the pathogen and how it works. First it breaks down an organism (opening of Prometheus) and then transfers those genes into new hosts.

Prometheus isn't consistent at all. It makes the Engineer fall to pieces, transforms Fifield into a monster zombie, and creates an entirely new organism without damaging the host in Shaw.

It just makes set pieces.

You know, if I have a bottle of milk, and drink it, it's milk. If I apply motion to the bottle and shake it a while, it's butter. If I mix it with something else, it can be pastry. If I drink it and then have intercourse with someone, it's no longer going to provide the same results and nourishment as if that person had ingested fresh milk. Why anyone expects the goo to do one thing and one thing only under vastly differing conditions is beyond me. 😅 Prometheus shows a variety of different outcomes depending on how one is exposed to the pathogen. Covenant shows (and explains) what it does... and that corresponds to what we saw it do in the first movie; mutate or kill.

So you're also saying that the black goo and the film still lack consistency? Because that's all I'm getting from reading this.

Nope, I'm saying the black goo does the same two things in both Prometheus and Covenant. It consistently kills or causes mutation/hybridisation in both movies. The rate/end result of those two things may differ depending on circumstances/external factors. Trying to argue that a life-form grown inside someone who had intercourse with someone subjected to the pathogen is an inconsistency because someone consuming raw pathogen generates a different result is like comparing apples and oranges.

You're just telling me that the goo constantly contradicts itself on screen. If I recall correctly, nobody gets killed by the black goo in Prometheus save for the engineer in the beginning, who happens to dissolve like a drink mix to supposedly create life, anybody else is killed by more external factors. Covenant tho, that at least takes a somewhat simpler route (which is still lame).

[Local Trouble]

Am I the only one who suspects that Janosz Poha in Ghostbusters II was based on H.R. Giger?  I wonder if Sigourney had a hand in that. 

Exhibit A

Exhibit B

[marrerom]

It results in us. Humanity.

So not horrifying mutants.

Kind of proving my point there.

Define horrifying mutants. Fifield and Holloway level of mutated? The generations that follow the initial exposure to the goo look much more "natural" for lack of a better word (Deacon and Neomorphs). Current humanity is many millions of generations removed from the first contact with the Engineer seeding and so we look fine. If the dust from the Engineer infected something like a turtle or a bug, then that would look pretty horrifying as it mutated. Later generations would look better as the genetic structure stabilized.
 

I imagine the process probably looked like this: Infect Alien/Deacon thing with Goo -> Goo breaks down host -> Engineers intervene prior to full dispersal and store the stage 2 goo in ampules.

Your entire explanation hinges on this concept, and not a word of it is in the movie.

I know. I do not disagree with you on this. What I am pointing out is that the film does show how the goo breaks living things down and then combines their genetics with other living things. So, when we see people getting infected by goo and start mutating with Alien/Deacon DNA (acid blood, Xeno-sperm, elongated head), then its not a stretch to play the tape backwards and conclude that the goo in these ampules had been created by breaking down something that looked like an Alien/Deacon. 

I also do not buy the Pathogen having any affect on Pathogen creations myself, makes things overly messy, Alex White also got that right.

Don't even have to go as far as the novels to provide an example of that: Prometheus has a Hammerpede swimming around in a river of goo without further mutating.

Correct. The movie shows that once mutated an organism won't get further mutated.

[SiL]

The generations that follow the initial exposure to the goo look much more "natural" for lack of a better word (Deacon and Neomorphs).

But then the Hammerpede looks pretty natural right off the bat.

then its not a stretch to play the tape backwards and conclude that the goo in these ampules had been created by breaking down something that looked like an Alien/Deacon.

You can draw this conclusion, yes.

You can also draw many others, because the film doesn't provide any real evidence one way or another.

Is it goo v2? Is it just a matter of dosage and transmission method? Are we actually looking at two entirely different substances? Did every jar have something different in it?

The film makes no effort to say. It just moves from one set pieces to the next, powered by Liquid Plot^TM.

[Still Collating...]

Building Better Worlds actually states that the Naiad/Trilobite (big tentacled facehugger-type thing in Prometheus) is usually spawned by Ovomorph-like pods dubbed "Womb-bats" as part of the Living Proto-Hive.

The way Shaw is infected by Holloway in Prometheus is an alternate method of creating it; this latter form is known as the "Zygote" or "eye-worm".

So the pathogen, ah, finds a way.

It's the same thing mostly, the Womb bats are impregnated humans turned into weird pod things. So Shaw without an added transformation.

I like the RPG a lot, but trying to make those very very specific creatures into generic ones that can spawn from a lot of circumstances feels wrong to me. Partly cause besides the Neomorph, I don't like the other Pathogen creatures, but also because it kinda doesn't make sense to me. But it's there now...
Also hate that the RPG confirmed that there are different strains of the Pathogen. It opens the Pandora's box even more for no need of consistency across the Pathogen effects. I hope the future movies/shows don't use the Pathogen ever again, permanently, but if they do, that they never go the rout that there are different versions that can do whatever.

Absolutely true. It's in the RPG so it must be. It's called a spermworm. Probably.

Do you have something against the RPG? It's far from perfect but it's trying at least. Trying to tie as many things together as possible. It already influenced a few books and games. I know it won't probably ever influence the future movies and series and that it will probably be contradicted by either the upcoming show or movie, but it's trying something as of now.

Fifield didn't have acid blood.

I don't agree with marrerom's reasoning as to Prometheus having 2 different versions of the goo. The final idea was clearly that both of those liquids are the same. The final intent was clear with what was and wasn't shown. But in your reply SM, marrerom there meant that Fifield got acid on his helmet and was burnt through. That wasn't his blood, that was from the Hammerped attack, that's what he meant.

[SiL]

But why did the Hammerpede get acid blood and Fifield didn't?

Why was the Hammerpede a complete new organism and not just a zombie centipede?

[oduodu]

the person who  wrote most of the initial episodes for lost(tv series) also wrote the shooting script for prometheus. it s supposed to not make sense or have answers. scott didn't bring lindelof in. that was fox s decision.

[SM]

Do you have something against the RPG? It's far from perfect but it's trying at least. Trying to tie as many things together as possible. It already influenced a few books and games. I know it won't probably ever influence the future movies and series and that it will probably be contradicted by either the upcoming show or movie, but it's trying something as of now.

I do have something against the RPG but I'm not getting into that drama here.  I think it got the tone right, some of the story lines are pretty cool, the artwork is absolutely brilliant, and I have the utmost respect for Tomas Harenstam.  However it suffers from a severe lack of quality control in terms of lore and blithely cramming as much old EU stuff in as possible.

I don't agree with marrerom's reasoning as to Prometheus having 2 different versions of the goo. The final idea was clearly that both of those liquids are the same. The final intent was clear with what was and wasn't shown. But in your reply SM, marrerom there meant that Fifield got acid on his helmet and was burnt through. That wasn't his blood, that was from the Hammerped attack, that's what he meant.

I was referencing this post.  Perhaps I misconstrued.

We don't see anything turn into Alien/Deacon hybrids. Fifield turns into a lumpy, gooey mess. The worms turn into cobras.
The only way they look like hybrids is if we start from the position they're hybrids and work backwards.
It's an interesting theory, but it's not in the film at all.

By hybrid, I mean they were infected with Alien/Deacon DNA. The worms got acid blood, and I mean, just look at what Holloway's mutated sperm resulted in.

[marrerom]

But why did the Hammerpede get acid blood and Fifield didn't?

Not every infected organism gets the same exact traits or has the same results. The Neomorphs didn't have acid blood either. 

Why was the Hammerpede a complete new organism and not just a zombie centipede?

The Hammerpede looked more like a "finished product" because its mutation was much farther along. That's what it gets for swimming around in the stuff. Holloways's transformation was slower because he only got a drop, compared to Fifield who got a face full. 

I don't agree with marrerom's reasoning as to Prometheus having 2 different versions of the goo. The final idea was clearly that both of those liquids are the same. The final intent was clear with what was and wasn't shown.

I am saying that both liquids are the same.

[SiL]

The Hammerpede looked more like a "finished product" because its mutation was much farther along. That's what it gets for swimming around in the stuff. Holloways's transformation was slower because he only got a drop, compared to Fifield who got a face full.

No, you just said it was successive generations -- why is it decaying zombies for one but fully formed for the other?

I am saying that both liquids are the same.

You've been arguing that what we see in the structure is what comes out of the Engineer at the beginning, not what goes in -- goo that has interacted with a host organism and then returned to goo, not pure goo.

If they're both the same thing then none of what you've argued has made sense, as the Engineer should have the same mutation reaction as the others, not break into pieces.

[marrerom]

The Hammerpede looked more like a "finished product" because its mutation was much farther along. That's what it gets for swimming around in the stuff. Holloways's transformation was slower because he only got a drop, compared to Fifield who got a face full.

No, you just said it was successive generations -- why is it decaying zombies for one but fully formed for the other?

Fifield and Holloway are not "decaying zombies". They are infected and undergoing mutation. They both are killed before that process is completed.

You can look at the alternate Mutant Fifield design in Prometheus to get an idea of what a he would have looked like as a more "finished product". You can also look at the sketches David made of Engineers going through the same process, with one even developing an inner jaw.

You've been arguing that what we see in the structure is what comes out of the Engineer at the beginning, not what goes in -- goo that has interacted with a host organism and then returned to goo, not pure goo.

If they're both the same thing then none of what you've argued has made sense, as the Engineer should have the same mutation reaction as the others, not break into pieces.

There is no difference between the goo in the opening scene of Prometheus and the goo in the ampules later on in the film. Its the same biotechnology. The only difference is the type of organism that has been exposed to the goo and stage of infection which it is in.

[BringbackJonesy!]

I look forward to what the new movie brings, and seeing what Hawley ends up doing with his tv show too.  But if I don't like them, I certainly won't let either of them detract from the way I view the original movie, that's for sure.  I just won't bother re-watching them if I'm not keen on how things pan out, simple as that.

No matter what Ridley or anyone else involved in this franchise comes up with retrospectively, my own ALIEN 'mythos' will always retain the mysteries that were in place when I first watched the original movie - where alien eggs of unknown origin were discovered along with the skeletal remains of a larger alien of equally otherworldly, mysterious origin.  A self-contained cinematic classic, which left those particular questions unanswered, and was the more unsettling for it.

ALIEN (Theatrical cut), ALIENS (Special Edition) and ALIEN 3 (15MaF's fan edit of it, at least) make up my own preferred 'canon' where Ripley's journey is concerned when it comes to a re-watch, while I completely ignore ALIEN RESURRECTION and the AVP storylines altogether nowadays as merely being 'Elseworlds'/'What If?' kind of scenarios.

And I consider PROMETHEUS and ALIEN COVENANT as yet another couple of 'Elseworlds'/'What If?' storylines too, due to my disliking Ridley choosing to turn the skeletal remains of the 'space jockey' alien into a 'spacesuit' contraption for a humanoid 'Engineer' instead....and having a human-created android create the alien using 'black, magic goo'.  Neither of which I agree with.  At all. 

While I really dislike how ALIEN COVENANT turned out, there's enough elements I happen to like about PROMETHEUS itself to give it an 'Elseworlds'/'What If?' re-watch in future - there's a couple of decent fan edits of it available which improve things for me, although I'd want to re-edit things in a specific way for myself to delay the introduction of the Engineers to keep their appearance a mystery until later in the movie, and expand on Shaw's fate to give the movie a more complete, self-contained outcome overall.

So after the initial 20th Century Fox title and fanfare, my ideal opening would begin with younger Weyland's TED talk, and as the sound of his audience fades, I'd continue directly to the Prometheus ship travelling silently across the vastness of space as we are eventually introduced to David and the rest of the crew soon after.  I'd make other individual trims to improve some of the dodgier moments along the way, and I'd also include certain deleted scenes too.

As far as the ending goes, I'd want to have Shaw and David fly off for the Engineer's home planet with her warning voice-over as usual, as we then see the birth of the Deacon before it roars in close-up as we fade to silence....except this would then be followed by a re-edited version of the 'Crossing' footage as we then see the Juggernaut travelling in space and hear David's voice-over describe their progress, as we then see Shaw re-attach his head, then set course in the control room, then put Shaw in hypersleep, then stalk the ship as he says "And then I was alone again....I learned of their ways and awaited our arrival...."  Then I'd cut to the entire sequence in COVENANT showing the ship arriving and David dropping the 'goo bombs' on the writhing population as we end on him saying "Look on my works ye mighty....and despair...."  At this point, I'd then conclude things with a shorted re-edit of the 'Advent' footage showing what happened to Shaw - so some interference static would crackle, as we then hear a female voice say "Weyland Yutani protocol sequence initiated....commence transmission", as David contacts the company with his description of Shaw's horrific fate and what he's been experimenting on for a long time....and I'd end things on the footage of something slowly moving inside an open egg as we hear David say "It took years....but I finally found my wolf....", before cutting to blackness as we then hear him announce "....My creatures shall be let loose....to rule this galaxy!", as the transmission static breaks up and the Weyland-Yutani Corp logo briefly appears with the words 'End Transmission', as we then briefly see a close-up of David's eye, before the static interference cuts off to silence.

So yeah, I could go with simply imagining that this unstable David has 'somehow' been capable of contacting 'the Company' at the end of PROMETHEUS instead - not to 'offer an olive branch' to them, but rather declaring that this is the way that things are going to be now!

By 'extending' the end of PROMETHEUS in the way I've described above, the 'Crossing' footage/dialogue allows a way for me to actually SEE Shaw re-connecting David's head back to his body, before piloting the Juggernaut together.  And by adding the complete 'goo bombing' scene from ALIEN COVENANT, I also get to see what the Juggernaut is capable of, as well as what the Engineer's 'Paradise' home world looks like, without watching the sequel.  And most of all, I still get to see Shaw's storyline wrapped up - she died 'offscreen' in ALIEN COVENANT anyway, and the 'Advent' footage/dialogue gives things an even sharper edge to her fate....as well giving a little more insight into what the 'black goo' is.   

For those that readily embrace Ridley's prequel ideas, then you at least have the mystery of the 'black goo's actual origin to ponder I guess.  That, and the headscratching question of why the stuff seems to produce such inconsistent results throughout both movies!  I'll just look on it as being a totally unstable and unpredictable substance from moment to moment - so the effects of it's use will always end up varying wildly, no matter the amount involved.

[SiL]

Fifield and Holloway are not "decaying zombies". They are infected and undergoing mutation. They both are killed before that process is completed.

We have no idea if Fifield will mutate any further.

You can look at the alternate Mutant Fifield design in Prometheus to get an idea of what a he would have looked like as a more "finished product". You can also look at the sketches David made of Engineers going through the same process, with one even developing an inner jaw.

Not in the movie!

There is no difference between the goo in the opening scene of Prometheus and the goo in the ampules later on in the film. Its the same biotechnology. The only difference is the type of organism that has been exposed to the goo and stage of infection which it is in.

Bolded the part where you're explaining it's not exactly the same thing. It's a processed version, which now apparently has new properties. You said the Engineer took pure goo and what we see later is processed goo.

[SM]

Sometimes you just need to go processed. Organic can be so expensive.

[Corporal Hicks]

The trilobite was an anomaly, caused by pathogen mutated semen entering Shaw... you could say an unexpected surprise in David's 'first experiment' that he couldn't have anticipated, but regardless, it created something similar to seen in the mural.

One of the bigger frustrations I had with this was that the Trilobite created a Deacon. Which the Engineers are aware of due to the mural. But it was a very specific chain of events that led to this creation.

It needed some limitations.

It would have helped so much had there been actual rules and definitions of what it did. 

It needed its own franchise.

I've always been happy with the black goo being a part of the franchise in it (sometimes) creating Alien-like creatures. It felt like a good fit to me there. Someone mentioned earlier - Kimmy?? - that it's just a cinematic royal jelly which is something I've said before as well. So it was something I was already used to in that regard.

I also do not buy the Pathogen having any affect on Pathogen creations myself, makes things overly messy, Alex White also got that right.

This bugged me so much about the depiction of the Neomorphs in Fireteam Elite. 

But you guys aren't taking external variables into consideration, all of which can impact the outcome. (Which is why I was taking about the differences in airborne vs consumed, quantity etc. We shouldn't assume that the pathogen will always do the same thing under different conditions.

To use purely as a real-world example, let's take a common chemical I use in the lab for experiments on marine invertebrates; Phenethylamine. Now if I put 10ml on a sponge at a molecular concentration of 10⁻⁴, I can trigger a mating response / sex behaviour in a female crustacean. Now if I increase the concentration slightly to 10⁻³, it now acts as a deterrent / triggers hiding behaviour in the animal. If I slightly alter the pH of the water I dilute it with, I can make it trigger an alarm response/ escape behaviour/predator avoidance. And if I instead slightly alter the pH of the tank water rather than the dilution, I can alter the chemicals molecular structure, and it becomes completely invisible to the animal.

I know the point of the conversation has been whether or not the movie actually gave the audience a consistant black goo (it didn't) but I do enjoy the post-release EU attempting to reconcile it, or fan theories doing the same and I really enjoyed what you said in this entire post Acid_Reign.

I see a lot of seemingly silly or unrealistic things in films that I have seen actually happen in reality (in the corporate/I.T world) and I love those really unusual elements that people might not expect to have basis in reality. So I really enjoyed and appreciated your examples here!