Noah Hawley Explains Why ‘Prometheus’ Isn’t “Useful” for His ‘Alien’ Prequel

Started by Corporal Hicks, Jan 13, 2024, 12:24:45 PM

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Noah Hawley Explains Why ‘Prometheus’ Isn’t “Useful” for His ‘Alien’ Prequel (Read 40,591 times)

SiL

None of which is actually explained or suggested by the movie itself.

xShadowFoxX

Yea, even though the substance in the beginning looks different somehow, there's nothing in the film to suggest that it isn't the black goo. And if it wasn't, then it should've been a more substantial plot device.

BlueMarsalis79

All that requires it to be improved upon's to show The Pathogen doing the same stuff again but different circumstances in a new story,  repetition's necessary to provide consistently.

SiL

Plot goo is still lame even if it is compartmentalised.

Acid_Reign161

Acid_Reign161

#424
Everyone knows I have my fair share of complaints about the prequel movies, but playing devils advocate here;

I really don't think there's really *that* big of an inconsistency between Prometheus and Covenant when it comes to the Pathogen.

First thing first; there's a lot of assumption here that what the Engineer drinks at the beginning of Prometheus is the same substance as what is in the urns on LV-233. We see a black substance. A bottle of turps looks like a bottle of water without labels. So removing that as a potential outlier for a moment, what do we actually see the goo from the vases do? Only one of two things;

It rewrites the physiology of an organic life form and either 1: kills them, or 2; triggers mutation. That was pretty consistent across both movies.

It appears variables affect the outcome. In humans;

When consumed in a minute amount, infection spreads slowly.

When literally bathed/face-planted in it, mutation is more obvious.

Of course, the weapon wasn't designed to be consumed, in covenant, we see the effects it causes on a population in huge quantities when detonated airborne as intended; it appears inhalation causes a volatile response, with bodies literally mutating and turning themselves inside-out (possibly a result of oxidisation?).

In animals, we know it creates hybrid forms, usually with xeno-esque head shapes (I know someone mentioned the hammerpedes don't have this, but it's that a fair analysis? Worms have no distinguishable head at all, whereas a closed hammerpede head is clearly distinctly a head- I'd say it's pretty much doing the same thing as we saw it do the creatures in David's lab).

The trilobite was an anomaly, caused by pathogen mutated semen entering Shaw... you could say an unexpected surprise in David's 'first experiment' that he couldn't have anticipated, but regardless, it created something similar to seen in the mural.

But I think most importantly, the whole point of the movie was the analogy of Prometheus stealing fire from the gods... playing with something we don't understand. It's not *supposed* to make sense, because it's beyond our understanding; even now, as an audience we are making anthropomorphic assumptions (myself included) to what we think it does/doesn't do, or should do, trying to make it fit with our understanding. It's alien in the truest sense of the word.

That being said, I still believe it only does two things, as David states in Covenant, and as we see across two movies. There are so many external variables involved I don't think it's fair to say it's inconsistent. 😅

SiL

Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 24, 2024, 11:16:50 PMI really don't think there's really *that* big of an inconsistency between Prometheus and Covenant when it comes to the Pathogen.
It's not that it's inconsistent between movies; it's that it's not consistent within Prometheus.

QuoteFirst thing first; there's a lot of assumption here that what the Engineer drinks at the beginning of Prometheus is the same substance as what is in the urns on LV-233. We see a black substance. A bottle of turps looks like a bottle of water without labels.
If you're introducing a black liquid with particular properties at the start of your movie, and we see a black liquid later in the movie that's clearly associated with the first black liquid but with different properties, you kind of want to explain the difference at some point if they're meant to be different things. Prometheus does not.

SM

As someone who loves the prequels - the goo/ pathogen rarely does the same thing twice.

Engineer - Dissolved to seed a planet with life.
Engineer head - exploded.
Holloway - got real sick.  Blood vessels turning black.  Possibly mutating.
Fifield - very cross. Probably mutating.  Into what we don't know.  Maybe his bulbous head will blow up like the Engineer.
Shaw - bore the trilobite not otherwise affected.

Then in Covenant, the Engineers are either burned or bear Neomorphy things.
The pathogen creates the puffball things or mutates local fungus and from them Ledward and Hallet bear Neomorphs.
It also wipes out local fauna - probably similar to how it took out the Engineers.

From a story point of view, the Alien is simple to follow.  You don't want a hugger to get on your face - we know what will happen if it does.  If you try to shoot or cut an Alien, it will bleed acid. If someone has been impregnated there's a ticking clock.

Post-hoc explanations to explain inconsistencies with the goo doesn't mean they suddenly aren't inconsistencies anymore.  It's clear they had no grand plan and set of rules for the stuff.


SiL

And that's why plot goo is lame.

SM

It needed some limitations.

SiL

It needed its own franchise.

Acid_Reign161

Acid_Reign161

#430
But you guys aren't taking external variables into consideration, all of which can impact the outcome. (Which is why I was taking about the differences in airborne vs consumed, quantity etc. We shouldn't assume that the pathogen will always do the same thing under different conditions.

To use purely as a real-world example, let's take a common chemical I use in the lab for experiments on marine invertebrates; Phenethylamine. Now if I put 10ml on a sponge at a molecular concentration of 10⁻⁴, I can trigger a mating response / sex behaviour in a female crustacean. Now if I increase the concentration slightly to 10⁻³, it now acts as a deterrent / triggers hiding behaviour in the animal. If I slightly alter the pH of the water I dilute it with, I can make it trigger an alarm response/ escape behaviour/predator avoidance. And if I instead slightly alter the pH of the tank water rather than the dilution, I can alter the chemicals molecular structure, and it becomes completely invisible to the animal.

Now ponder on that for a moment; I can do all these wonderful things in a controlled lab setting, but it's a miracle the chemical works the same way at all in a real-world environment where you can't possibly control the dilution; it could be delivered in a huge body of water in the open ocean, or a small confined tide pool no bigger than the animal itself with daily fluctuating pH, and yet this one chemical is capable of so many different outcomes.

Think of how many variables affected the outcomes of the pathogen; sure, an engineer head exploded; do we know how he was infected? They were running from something; being infected by a pathogen created organism could result in very different outcomes than ingestion or inhalation; consider that the airborn pathogen triggers volatile mutation, whilst pathogen infected botanical fauna, such as the fungus, releases spores which result in a neomorph; raw pathogen doesn't do that.

So yes, we see lots of different things in the two movies, but there are lots of factors to consider.

To expect consistency, we would have to see the exact same thing happen twice under the same conditions, and we haven't seen that in Prometheus or Covenant.

All we know for certain is that the pathogen triggers mutation/hybrid forms or results in death, something shown in both movies and explained by David in Covenant.

For all my many hang ups and nit-picks with those movies, I have to be honest, the pathogen wasn't one of them. I was ok with how it was presented, especially with the whole 'stealing fire from the gods' metaphor. It seemed fitting. 😅

Acid_Reign161

Acid_Reign161

#431
Quote from: SiL on Jan 25, 2024, 12:30:37 AMIt needed its own franchise.

Now THAT I 100% agree with you on! I'd have rather had all of the prequel stuff kept out of the Alien franchise; Ridley should have gotten that out of his system in a 'Raised by Wolves' movie trilogy.

SiL

Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 25, 2024, 01:02:56 AMBut you guys aren't taking external variables into consideration, all of which can impact the outcome. (Which is why I was taking about the differences in airborne vs consumed, quantity etc. We shouldn't assume that the pathogen will always do the same thing under different conditions.
You're ignoring that this is a film we're talking about. Information needs to be established and communicated through the story. If the pathogen has different properties under different circumstances, this needs to be shown.

Prometheus simply does not do a good job -- or any job -- of giving a reason for the goo to be doing what it does in the story. There's no consistency, or logic behind the inconsistencies, because, quite frankly, they didn't bother. It does whatever will create the most dramatic set piece to push the story along.

We can all sit here and think about why it may or may not be like this. I actually like @marrerom 's explanation. But it's not in the movie. It requires dots being connected that are plausible, but at no point ever brought up or supported by the movie itself.

This is the discussion. Marrerom said Prometheus is consistent, we're showing it isn't. Whether it bothers anyone or not or whether it can be handwaved or not isn't the question, it's that the film itself presents it as liquid plot development.

SM

Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 25, 2024, 01:02:56 AMBut you guys aren't taking external variables into consideration, all of which can impact the outcome. (Which is why I was taking about the differences in airborne vs consumed, quantity etc. We shouldn't assume that the pathogen will always do the same thing under different conditions.

To use purely as a real-world example, let's take a common chemical I use in the lab for experiments on marine invertebrates; Phenethylamine. Now if I put 10ml on a sponge at a molecular concentration of 10⁻⁴, I can trigger a mating response / sex behaviour in a female crustacean. Now if I increase the concentration slightly to 10⁻³, it now acts as a deterrent / triggers hiding behaviour in the animal. If I slightly alter the pH of the water I dilute it with, I can make it trigger an alarm response/ escape behaviour/predator avoidance. And if I instead slightly alter the pH of the tank water rather than the dilution, I can alter the chemicals molecular structure, and it becomes completely invisible to the animal.

Now ponder on that for a moment; I can do all these wonderful things in a controlled lab setting, but it's a miracle the chemical works the same way at all in a real-world environment where you can't possibly control the dilution; it could be delivered in a huge body of water in the open ocean, or a small confined tide pool no bigger than the animal itself with daily fluctuating pH, and yet this one chemical is capable of so many different outcomes.

Think of how many variables affected the outcomes of the pathogen; sure, an engineer head exploded; do we know how he was infected? They were running from something; being infected by a pathogen created organism could result in very different outcomes than ingestion or inhalation; consider that the airborn pathogen triggers volatile mutation, whilst pathogen infected botanical fauna, such as the fungus, releases spores which result in a neomorph; raw pathogen doesn't do that.

So yes, we see lots of different things in the two movies, but there are lots of factors to consider.

To expect consistency, we would have to see the exact same thing happen twice under the same conditions, and we haven't seen that in Prometheus or Covenant.

All we know for certain is that the pathogen triggers mutation/hybrid forms or results in death, something shown in both movies and explained by David in Covenant.

For all my many hang ups and nit-picks with those movies, I have to be honest, the pathogen wasn't one of them. I was ok with how it was presented, especially with the whole 'stealing fire from the gods' metaphor. It seemed fitting. 😅

I don't have issues with the pathogen either.  There are ways to explain it.

The point is - the film, objectively, doesn't.

marrerom

I just want to say, I don't disagree that Prometheus needed more exposition to clearly define the Goo's properties. I just disagree that there is no evidence in the films as to how the Goo works or what it does.

Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 08:12:06 PM
Quote from: marrerom on Jan 24, 2024, 07:44:41 PMIt does though. Prometheus shows goo + host = dust. Following that logic then the dust is the result of when goo breaks down a host, yes? Ok. Covenant shows ...
There's the rub - this conversation is about Prometheus not being consistent. You can't bring Covenant into it.

Fair.

Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 08:12:06 PMPrometheus doesn't establish what happens when the dust interacts with anything living

It does, (DNA merging with cells).

Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 08:12:06 PMand doesn't establish a link between the dust and the supposed Goo V2.

Just to be clear, I assume you are talking about the ampules in the mural room leaking goo but not dispersing into dust. Yes? If so, then what the movie shows is that the ampules didn't release their payload as intended. Instead, they leaked out dormant Goo V2 because they were 2000 years old and the sudden change in the atmosphere triggered the ampules to fail.

Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2024, 08:12:06 PMFor that matter, Covenant also doesn't link dust and Goo V2.

Sure it does. It shows a ship from LV-223 (where Goo V2 ampules were being mass produced), full of ampules which are then rained down on the Engineers. The Ampules detonate mid air and release Goo V2 which disperses into dust.

(BTW, I am saying dust for lack of a better word. The airborne particles sound and move more like a swarm of insects to be honest).

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