Aliens: An Analysis

Started by Scorpio, Jan 27, 2018, 02:12:52 AM

Author
Aliens: An Analysis (Read 49,637 times)

SiL

SiL

#255
Burke and Ripley are civilian advisors with no authority on the mission.

Necronomicon II

Necronomicon II

#256
Thanks for the coffee.
Yeah I meant the Colonial Marine Corps didn't need Burke's permission to investigate.

SiL

SiL

#257
Yeah I'm basically at the point where I don't think Ralfy has ever actually watched the movie.

Necronomicon II

Necronomicon II

#258
😂

Engineer

Engineer

#259
Why is this thread not dead yet?

Necronomicon II

Necronomicon II

#260

Jonjamess

Jonjamess

#261
You're missing the point about Burke acting alone! Completely missing the point! Quoting that he instructs Bishop to gather the facehuggers for return to the company labs (he even says Company labs!) doesn't mean he wasn't going to share his discovery with WY. Of course he was! He had to, he couldn't contain the Aliens himself and WY has rights over the Colony.

When I say hr was acting alone I mean in the first instance. By sending the Jordans to investigate (on his own not with WY permission) and by then joining the Marines to see why they've lost contact, that is how he's acting alone. WY don't believe Ripley, they thinks she's nuts!

Burke believes her so decides to go a little bit out of his jurisdiction and see if she really is telling the truth even though WY as a whole has dismissed her. Of course once he got his hands on what Ripley was describing he then assumed he would return to WY a hero with a huge bonus for having used his initiative and secured them a valuable bioweapon.

Apologies if I'm starting to sound a bit blunt but why is that so hard to understand? He's taken it upon himself without WY authorisation to send those colonists to the co-ordinates obviously stored on the flight recorder to see if there is something valuable there. Then he takes all the credit. Of course he wasn't going to set up his own labs or study the creature on his own! He was going to be the one to deliver it to them except WY weren't aware of his intentions as they had already dismissed Ripley!

Cameron has even stated Burke is acting alone although admittedly I'm having trouble finding the source and hope I'm remembering correctly. He states something about the board members in the hearing and how they aren't lying to Ripley and deceiving her, he says they genuinely don't believe her.

Thus Burke was acting alone. On a very basic level imagine in an everyday job you weren't asked to do something by your manager but you decide to take the risk and do it anyway, without telling them because you think it might show great iniative and you will be rewarded! Youre still acting alone, you havent shared your intentions with your management at that point. It's that!


Quote from: SiL on Jun 03, 2023, 01:44:45 AMThe movies show us that greed drives unethical behaviour that is willing to endanger the lives of people for potential profit.

They don't show us top down Company wide conspiracies where the official policy seems to be "f**k it, just kill people why not. Let's set up a colony just to murder."

Thank you, absolutely this! Spot on.

[cancerblack]

[cancerblack]

#262
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 03, 2023, 01:56:45 AMbug-hunt can just be a term that pertains to sweep-and-clear operations without clear objectives. It's a play on "snipe hunt"

The lack of understanding around this, and the misinterpretation of "xenomorph", have done so much damage.


Quote from: SiL on Jun 03, 2023, 01:44:45 AMThey don't show us top down Company wide conspiracies where the official policy seems to be "f**k it, just kill people why not. Let's set up a colony just to murder."

Thank you. It's the banality of evil, not moustache-twirling cartoon shit.

Necronomicon II

Necronomicon II

#263
@Jonjamess Here's the Cameron quote you're after my good lad โ€”

"As scripted, they were given the general coordinates of its position by the manager of the colony, on orders from Carter Burke. It is not directly stated, but presumed, that Burke could only have gotten that information from Ripley or from the black-box flight recorder aboard the shuttle Narcissus, which accessed the Nostromo's on-board computer."
...

"Briggs' idea that the company had already discovered the derelict is therefore unnecessary and would invalidate Carter Burke's motives for attempting to bring back a sample of the organism for study, and using such drastic means to do it."
[/quote]

Local Trouble

Local Trouble

#264
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jun 03, 2023, 09:33:10 PMApologies if I'm starting to sound a bit blunt but why is that so hard to understand?

That's the $64,000 question.  I think SiL just hasn't tried hard enough to explain it to him.

SiL

SiL

#265
The TL;DR so @Local Trouble can find it for us all again in another decade when this topic refuses to die:

Ripley returns from space. Says space monsters ate her crew, except one, who was totally a robot spy.

Government investigates because of course they do, but there's no sign of the monster and the place she said she found them has been peacefully colonised for 20 years. They don't find her credible enough to check it themselves.

Burke sees an opportunity and instructs the site manager to send out someone to look at the grid reference from the flight recorder. Doesn't warn them not to look too close, because that would turn it into a security situation.

The colonists look too close and it turns into a security situation.

Marines are sent to investigate because space is big and empty and you sort of want to make sure you send everything you might need the first time. Burke and Ripley tag along as civilian advisors.
Burke asks Bishop to preserve Facehuggers to send back to the Company labs. Bishop says sure whatever because the specimens will all have to go through quarantine anyway.

Ripley's like yeah nah f**k off with that noise.

Burke realises he's not going to get the Facehuggers back so tries to get Ripley and Newt impregnated to slip the chestbursters past quarantine.

And then he dies the end.

ralfy

ralfy

#266
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 03, 2023, 01:56:45 AMOk puts on 'nerd cap' 😂 โ€”

Keep in mind that when Hudson questions whether the operation will be another stand up fight or another "bug-hunt", bug-hunt can just be a term that pertains to sweep-and-clear operations without clear objectives. It's a play on "snipe hunt," a term that can be used to describe a purposeless task. It's possible they have encountered foreign fauna before but bug hunt doesn't necessarily mean literal bugs.

Also Burke is just following standard procedure, he has confirmation and live specimens that are valuable assets for the company labs, prior he wasn't certain there'd be more than a downed transmitter. As far as I can recall, the United Americas Allied Command, which the USCM are a part, wouldn't need Burke's permission to formally investigate lost contact of a colony, why would they? The Colonial Marine Corps' key responsibilities include serving as the forerunner in any significant war operation and maintaining security for all signatories of the United Americas as well as at all extraterrestrial colonies that are under its jurisdiction.ยน

1 Aliens: Colonial Marines Technical Manual

They have a logo in their drop ship and talk about "Arcturians". They also received Ripley's brief, which contained details on the facehugger and the alien.

In addition, "bug hunt" in the real world refers to literally looking for insects or defects in systems. In this case, the reference is clearly the former. Following Ripley's report, they look like large insects. That's why Marines were used, and heavily armed.

Why the complacency? From what I gathered, most of them don't like what they do, and some just want to end their service. But they don't call the shots: rather, they superiors do. That means the ff.

The company and government are partners in the terraforming project plus anything that can be gained from the rock; hence, mineral rights. The first has a stake in monetizing any discoveries, and the second in monetizing it. Ripley's and Ash's points in the first and second movie and Burke's points in the second make this very clear.

The alien ship location was known by the whole board and even Ripley, which means for Burke to have acted alone implies significant character flaws involving both. The flaw in Ripley actually appeared in the movie, when she bothered to ask the board to investigate the location, which is the only piece of evidence that would have allowed her to defend herself, too late. To make matters worse, she only found out that a colony had been on the rock for two decades only after the hearing, and accidentally, too, which means she didn't bother to do research on what happened to the rock and even the company and government the decades she was gone.

When one follows standard procedure and will use company labs, among others, then it becomes illogical to act alone, i.e., without knowledge from the company and the government.

Finally, about the point concerning the military acting independently, they would have been able to do so in this case following the storyline that Burke acted alone because that would have meant that only he bothered to have the site investigated and only he had communications with the colony. No one else knew. That would also mean that he had control of any military unit, i.e., they didn't have to ask him for permission to investigate what happened (as they wouldn't have known because only he had access to everything happening to the colony) but that he didn't have to ask permission from military higher-ups to commandeer a military unit.

One more point: Ripley pointed out later in the movie that the mission is under military jurisdiction, which meant that the military was calling the shots. Since Gorman was meeting with Burke, and since the military is part of the government that works with the company, then it's likely that Gorman was instructed by higher-ups in the military that works for the goverment to follow Burke. And following what Bishop said, Burke's instructions were to retrieve the facehuggers and prepare them to be brought to company labs, among others. It was only with Gorman and Apone out that Hicks was able to make decisions.

It's clear, then, that Burke didn't work alone, and that several in government and company were involved. He was to act as the front man and to manage everything, with the military via Gorman working for him.


Necronomicon II

Necronomicon II

#267
Bug-stomper can simply refer to stomping enemy hostiles, again it's not necessarily literal. Pretty sure they're not having intimate relations with bug-like Arcturians either, they sound like citizens from an established world, station, etc.

I'm aware of big hunting in the software context, but in the military โ€”

"In Real-world Military Context: The term could also be used metaphorically to refer to a search for elusive, hard-to-find targets, much like searching for insects or "bugs". This could include missions focused on finding specific individuals (like high-value targets in a conflict), or even missions that involve detailed searches for equipment or devices (like improvised explosive devices or IEDs).

Remember, language in the military can be quite fluid and context-dependent, and terminology can vary between different units, services, or nations. Also, "bug hunt" as a military term is not universally used or recognized, and its meaning may not be immediately clear to all service members."

Burke was working alone, source: James Cameron.

His name is James Cameron, the bravest pioneer, no budget too steep, no sea too deep, who's that? It's him, James Cameron!


Local Trouble

Local Trouble

#268
Quote from: SM on Nov 28, 2008, 12:37:25 AMThere's nothing definate about Arcturians - but I think the stuff about "bug hunts" says enough that there are extra terrestrials lifeforms in the Alien universe beyond Aliens and Jockies (even if Jockies aren't around anymore).  The fact that we don't get any indication of ETs in Resurrection would imply to me that said ETs encountered are most likely animals - ie. the bugs marines sometimes have to hunt.

Jonjamess

Jonjamess

#269
Quote from: ralfy on Jun 04, 2023, 03:46:28 AMWhen one follows standard procedure and will use company labs, among others, then it becomes illogical to act alone, i.e., without knowledge from the company and the government.



It's clear, then, that Burke didn't work alone, and that several in government and company were involved. He was to act as the front man and to manage everything, with the military via Gorman working for him.



Come on I've already explained this. They don't believe her! Burke is the only one that does, he's trying to use his initiative and score WY a valuable asset but not to do them a favour but to make himself rich! Burke isn't interested in the Alien or the scientific benefits of the discovery or the bio-weapons WY can make. He's interested in getting rich, full stop. He's acting alone without WY back up. If WY had believed Ripley they would have sent Burke and a platoon of Private Military to either/both the Derelict and the Colony! They are are huge and wealthy corporation.

You honestly believe if they were so desperate for a Xenomorph and they believed Ripley they would just act like "yeah sure just send 11 fed up Colonial Marines, they might be able to capture this extremely dangerous creature that's killed 157 colonists. And if they aren't up for it, ah well we tried and nevermind".

You have to use logic here, you can't just keep repeating the same flawed argument again and again to satisfy your own personal desire of how you would prefer the storyline had gone down. But at this point I think it's becoming futile trying to debate with you as there are clearly quite a few plot points you are failing to comprehend or understand.

AvPGalaxy: About | Contact | Cookie Policy | Manage Cookie Settings | Privacy Policy | Legal Info
Facebook Twitter Instagram YouTube Patreon RSS Feed
Contact: General Queries | Submit News