Jurassic Park Series

Started by War Wager, Mar 25, 2007, 10:10:16 PM

Author
Jurassic Park Series (Read 1,367,570 times)

Vertigo

Vertigo

#10395
Quote from: Omegazilla on Nov 27, 2014, 07:20:56 PM
The basic point is that the original film balanced accuracy with 'cool'. So did film two. So did film three. So does this. The Mosasaurus as far as I can see is anatomically accurate -- but is oversized. The original T.Rex had small anatomical inaccuracies regardless of the feathers/non-feathers thing. So on and so forth.

The first film was pretty damn accurate based on the science of the late '80s/early '90s.

Flourishes like Dilophosaurus' frill/venom and Tyrannosaurus' knobbly face adornment were fanciful but not scientifically implausible - the most popular dinosaur book of the last few years is based on the same principle.
Scientists had even discussed the possibility of Dilophosaurus having an unusual killing method, because its jaw was thought to be so weak that it couldn't have been used to wound large prey.

As for what now looks wrong...
Accuracy specifics. Warning, it's a long one

-Crichton's "raptors" were actually supposed to be the giant Asian dromaeosaurid that would eventually be named Achillobator, which was mentioned in Predatory Dinosaurs Of The World, the book that inspired JP's dinosaur descriptions. The remains weren't officially described until 1999, but Gregory Paul apparently had some conception of the size 11 years beforehand.
The film used Deinonychus as the visual basis, as it was the largest well-known dromaeosaur at the time, then extrapolated a more heavyset creature from that.
As for the name, Crichton subscribed to a theory in the '80s that all dromaeosaurids were so closely related that they should be united under one genus - Velociraptor, being the oldest name.


-JP's rex is slightly bigger than the largest known Tyrannosaurus, Sue, but it's within theoretical bounds for size variance within a species. Given that it's only known from 50 individuals, it's a pretty safe bet that there were adults far smaller and larger than the ones we've found.

As for the 'visual accuity based on movement' - believe it or not, that's based in science too. Crichton liked to showcase cutting edge research, and an emerging field during the '80s was the analysis of fossilised braincases to draw parallels to living animals. Early research suggested Tyrannosaurus' sensory centre was similar to that of an amphibian, and Crichton extrapolated from that.
Of course, we now know that the exact opposite was true, and Tyrannosaurus actually had exceptional eyesight, but the science has come a lot further since then.


-Dilophosaurus is of course a big bundle of wrong, in the film at least. As mentioned before, the venom and frill were speculative. As for the size and head shape, this was an honest mistake, based on the designer using the original holotype for reference -

(For anyone who doesn't know, Dilophosaurus was originally thought to be a new species of Megalosaurus.)

This was actually a very common mistake, and my pre-JP dinosaur books also showed Dilophosaurus with a generic carnosaur skull, rather than the pointy, long-toothed coelophysoid skull it actually had.


-All the theropods have pronating 'bunny hands'. We now know that prosauropods and theropods had very inflexible wrists and forearms, particularly with regard to the position of the hands - in other words, holding a basketball, not dribbling it. The dinosaurs right at the avian root (such as Velociraptor) had additional bones which allowed them to bend the hand sideways towards the wrist, but even they couldn't make their palms face the floor without splaying their arms close to 90 degrees.
However, this is based on studies that were published between 2002 and 2008, so even Jurassic Park 3 wasn't inaccurate for its time, in this regard.


-Feathers. We now know that all coelurosaurs - the group that includes Compsognathus, Gallimimus, Tyrannosaurus and Velociraptor - had proto-feathers as the primary integument. It's important to note that 'proto-feather' is a broad-ranging term - compsognathid feathers were very similar to mammalian hair, ornithomimosaurs had fluffy down like a bird chick, dromaeosaurids had proper wing feathers.
Tyrannosaurus itself is probably safe though - multi-ton animals from warm/temperate climates don't need insulation, so if it had any kind of feather, it would have been for display. My guess is that it was scaly all over, and we have found samples of scaly skin in its closest relatives. That said, rex junior would probably have been massively fluffy and cute as a button.

Anyway. The evidence for feathers in dinosaurs didn't really reach a tipping point until Microraptor was described in 2002, after even Jurassic Park 3.


-Finally, cloning dinosaurs from mosquitos trapped in amber. When Crichton wrote Jurassic Park, it was genuinely believed in the scientific community that this was possible. Partial strands of DNA had recently been found in Cretaceous amber, and it was thought it was just a case of finding the right amber, and achieving the understanding of genetics to be able to 'patch' missing base pairs (the vast majority of any genome consists of 'junk' pairs anyway).
Crichton addresses the various other difficulties of cloning a dinosaur in the book.

Anyway, it later turned out that at least some of that Cretaceous DNA was actually a more recent contaminant (there's still a piece of plant matter that my cursory search didn't find any evidence disproving). We've only ever found a couple of mosquitos preserved in Mesozoic amber, and even if we could find one that had recently drunk dinosaur blood, it seems there would almost inevitably be contaminants from the bug itself, even if any of the DNA was preserved, and even if we could figure out how to patch the genome.
Still. This has largely been figured out due to the scrutiny that was placed on the subject after Crichton's writing.
[close]

DoomRulz

DoomRulz

#10396
Quote from: Vertigo on Nov 27, 2014, 10:18:51 PM
Quote from: Omegazilla on Nov 27, 2014, 07:20:56 PM
The basic point is that the original film balanced accuracy with 'cool'. So did film two. So did film three. So does this. The Mosasaurus as far as I can see is anatomically accurate -- but is oversized. The original T.Rex had small anatomical inaccuracies regardless of the feathers/non-feathers thing. So on and so forth.

The first film was pretty damn accurate based on the science of the late '80s/early '90s.

Flourishes like Dilophosaurus' frill/venom and Tyrannosaurus' knobbly face adornment were fanciful but not scientifically implausible - the most popular dinosaur book of the last few years is based on the same principle.
Scientists had even discussed the possibility of Dilophosaurus having an unusual killing method, because its jaw was thought to be so weak that it couldn't have been used to wound large prey.

As for what now looks wrong...
Accuracy specifics. Warning, it's a long one

-Crichton's "raptors" were actually supposed to be the giant Asian dromaeosaurid that would eventually be named Achillobator, which was mentioned in Predatory Dinosaurs Of The World, the book that inspired JP's dinosaur descriptions. The remains weren't officially described until 1999, but Gregory Paul apparently had some conception of the size 11 years beforehand.
The film used Deinonychus as the visual basis, as it was the largest well-known dromaeosaur at the time, then extrapolated a more heavyset creature from that.
As for the name, Crichton subscribed to a theory in the '80s that all dromaeosaurids were so closely related that they should be united under one genus - Velociraptor, being the oldest name.


-JP's rex is slightly bigger than the largest known Tyrannosaurus, Sue, but it's within theoretical bounds for size variance within a species. Given that it's only known from 50 individuals, it's a pretty safe bet that there were adults far smaller and larger than the ones we've found.

As for the 'visual accuity based on movement' - believe it or not, that's based in science too. Crichton liked to showcase cutting edge research, and an emerging field during the '80s was the analysis of fossilised braincases to draw parallels to living animals. Early research suggested Tyrannosaurus' sensory centre was similar to that of an amphibian, and Crichton extrapolated from that.
Of course, we now know that the exact opposite was true, and Tyrannosaurus actually had exceptional eyesight, but the science has come a lot further since then.


-Dilophosaurus is of course a big bundle of wrong, in the film at least. As mentioned before, the venom and frill were speculative. As for the size and head shape, this was an honest mistake, based on the designer using the original holotype for reference -

(For anyone who doesn't know, Dilophosaurus was originally thought to be a new species of Megalosaurus.)

This was actually a very common mistake, and my pre-JP dinosaur books also showed Dilophosaurus with a generic carnosaur skull, rather than the pointy, long-toothed coelophysoid skull it actually had.


-All the theropods have pronating 'bunny hands'. We now know that prosauropods and theropods had very inflexible wrists and forearms, particularly with regard to the position of the hands - in other words, holding a basketball, not dribbling it. The dinosaurs right at the avian root (such as Velociraptor) had additional bones which allowed them to bend the hand sideways towards the wrist, but even they couldn't make their palms face the floor without splaying their arms close to 90 degrees.
However, this is based on studies that were published between 2002 and 2008, so even Jurassic Park 3 wasn't inaccurate for its time, in this regard.


-Feathers. We now know that all coelurosaurs - the group that includes Compsognathus, Gallimimus, Tyrannosaurus and Velociraptor - had proto-feathers as the primary integument. It's important to note that 'proto-feather' is a broad-ranging term - compsognathid feathers were very similar to mammalian hair, ornithomimosaurs had fluffy down like a bird chick, dromaeosaurids had proper wing feathers.
Tyrannosaurus itself is probably safe though - multi-ton animals from warm/temperate climates don't need insulation, so if it had any kind of feather, it would have been for display. My guess is that it was scaly all over, and we have found samples of scaly skin in its closest relatives. That said, rex junior would probably have been massively fluffy and cute as a button.

Anyway. The evidence for feathers in dinosaurs didn't really reach a tipping point until Microraptor was described in 2002, after even Jurassic Park 3.


-Finally, cloning dinosaurs from mosquitos trapped in amber. When Crichton wrote Jurassic Park, it was genuinely believed in the scientific community that this was possible. Partial strands of DNA had recently been found in Cretaceous amber, and it was thought it was just a case of finding the right amber, and achieving the understanding of genetics to be able to 'patch' missing base pairs (the vast majority of any genome consists of 'junk' pairs anyway).
Crichton addresses the various other difficulties of cloning a dinosaur in the book.

Anyway, it later turned out that at least some of that Cretaceous DNA was actually a more recent contaminant (there's still a piece of plant matter that my cursory search didn't find any evidence disproving). We've only ever found a couple of mosquitos preserved in Mesozoic amber, and even if we could find one that had recently drunk dinosaur blood, it seems there would almost inevitably be contaminants from the bug itself, even if any of the DNA was preserved, and even if we could figure out how to patch the genome.
Still. This has largely been figured out due to the scrutiny that was placed on the subject after Crichton's writing.
[close]
I love you, man.

KiramidHead

KiramidHead

#10397
Now go f**k for a while and leave us in peace. :P ;D

OmegaZilla

OmegaZilla

#10398
Quote from: DoomRulz on Nov 27, 2014, 10:18:23 PM
Yet you're forgetting the real problem that all these "liberties" contribute to, and that is perpetual ignorance about dinosaurs. People to this day still go to museums and are shocked that Velociraptor wasn't much bigger than a small dog or that Dilophosaurus doesn't have a frill.
Dude, the point I've been trying to make is that if you blame this new film, you also have to blame the original film, because they're doing the same thing!

Quote from: DoomRulz on Nov 27, 2014, 10:18:23 PM
For crying out loud, the mosasaur from the trailer is bring called a dinosaur, and the film isn't even out yet!
That's not anything new... I've spent my early primary school days telling people how Pterosaurs and Plesiosaurs were not Dinosaurs. It's a widely diffused misconception thanks to horribly dated school textbooks.

Quote from: DoomRulz on Nov 27, 2014, 10:18:23 PM
It's not as if people are going to storm out of the theatre if a dinosaur has some plumage on it. I really don't think you're giving audiences any credit at all.
It's not my thinking; it's the filmmakers'. Again, you can't really blame them. Films that take risks not always come out on top.

Quote from: Vertigo on Nov 27, 2014, 10:18:51 PM
The first film was pretty damn accurate based on the science of the late '80s/early '90s.
...but still had its share of (conscious) problems.

Quote from: Vertigo on Nov 27, 2014, 10:18:51 PM
-Dilophosaurus is of course a big bundle of wrong, in the film at least.
There you go.

Quote from: Vertigo on Nov 27, 2014, 10:18:51 PM
My guess is that it was scaly all over, and we have found samples of scaly skin in its closest relatives.
We have T.rex skin impressions too (just saying).

xeno-kaname

xeno-kaname

#10399
Quote from: DoomRulz on Nov 27, 2014, 07:25:30 PM
Quote from: Omegazilla on Nov 27, 2014, 07:20:56 PM
I've not seen anyone go really uppity about it, just stating their opinion.

The basic point is that the original film balanced accuracy with 'cool'. So did film two. So did film three. So does this. The Mosasaurus as far as I can see is anatomically accurate -- but is oversized. The original T.Rex had small anatomical inaccuracies regardless of the feathers/non-feathers thing. So on and so forth.

Yes, and they could easily have been corrected. Why does a dinosaur need to be inaccurate in order to be "cool"? Dinosaurs are cool just the way they are.

Quote from: Omegazilla on Nov 27, 2014, 07:20:56 PM
'Tail draggers' wouldn't be minded, no, but audience today likes the new fast Dinosaurs. It's what CGI brought in. Fast lethal things. Tail draggers are associated with old Dinosaur movies only Harryhausen fans such as me remember fondly.

I wouldn't be surprised if people were complaining about the elimination of the classic tail-dragging posture, but grew to love the correct posture because it made sense. There's no reason why feathered dinosaurs couldn't or wouldn't have the same effect.

Quote from: Omegazilla on Nov 27, 2014, 07:20:56 PM
You also have to take into account that the JP Dinosaurs have become imprinted in the public imagination much like the Terminator, or Alien, or Robocop have. They're icons.

Except that all of those creatures are wholly fictitious, created in someone's mind. Dinosaurs aren't. Dinosaur design can evolve, just like the science has because dinosaurs were real creatures.

Also, like you said, they've become imprinted in the public imagination, ergo, they have shaped how the general public sees dinosaurs. No reason why that can't change.

Quote from: BANE on Nov 27, 2014, 07:22:30 PM
Quote from: DoomRulz on Nov 27, 2014, 07:18:11 PM
Quote from: BANE on Nov 27, 2014, 07:17:30 PM
Quote from: DoomRulz on Nov 27, 2014, 07:16:08 PM
They're dinosaurs, real or otherwise. There's no actual reason why they can't look like what science tells us. And if that's your reasoning, then I guess you really wouldn't mind if they were all tail-draggers, right?
Feathers look dumb

No feathers looks dumb.
You know you don't actually believe that.

I kinda do. I enjoy seeing how different artists present dinosaurs with plumage. Every illustration is different.

I think both have their appeal. Feathers and no feathers. Tail draggers and not. Although i prefer the JP franchises take, I'd still love to see the more accurate dinosaurs on a big budget movie. But JP should stick to it's designs. It is the signature of it's franchise.

What we really need is Spielberg or another big time director to tackle a new franchise with feathered dinosaurs. Sadly, there's not much room for innovation since the plot would still probably have to be "dinosaurs! Run!" But it could do something that hasn't been done in a long time: be rated R. That would give an edge to the feathered dinosaurs that could appeal to the general audience. It's all very unlikely though, but I wish.

OmegaZilla

OmegaZilla

#10400
A film with up to date Dinosaurs would be absolutely excellent. It wouldn't necessarily have to be a JP-style film... there's a million ways you can use Dinosaurs in film -- about as many as you can use any other animal.

KiramidHead

KiramidHead

#10401
Save it for Walking with Dinosaurs 2. hehehehe

Magegg

Magegg

#10402
To begin with, the species shown in Jurassic Park were mostly from Cretaceaous period, that kind of clears how "scientifically accurate" they care to be  :laugh:

Vertigo

Vertigo

#10403
Quote from: xeno-kaname on Nov 27, 2014, 10:41:55 PMWhat we really need is Spielberg or another big time director to tackle a new franchise with feathered dinosaurs. Sadly, there's not much room for innovation since the plot would still probably have to be "dinosaurs! Run!"

Well said. With lots of people talking about it being a "rehash", or "does the franchise need another instalment?" (right or wrong), I'd been thinking along the same lines as you.

I know what I'd personally love to see is dinosaurs being dinosaurs, just chilling out, chomping ferns, taking a nap, playing, socialising, having a scratch, having a drink, chasing each other, dying on a cross to save humanity from its sins. Not being monsters, not anthropomorphised, no cheesy voiceovers. My ideal Jurassic Park would be one in which the dinosaurs never escape and everything goes swimmingly. It perhaps wouldn't make one billion dollars.

Ryu

Ryu

#10404
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQFQqCn25AA
2:30
Two brains ?! For a respected man who defends the theory of T-REX scavenger. Does Jack Horner to have this phase, shit hint fan?
Chickens are T-rex relatives and they do not have two Brains!
Maybe a long time, he should be fired from being a consultant to the park Jurrassic movies.

OmegaZilla

OmegaZilla

#10405
Quote from: Vertigo on Nov 27, 2014, 10:51:42 PM
I know what I'd personally love to see is dinosaurs being dinosaurs, just chilling out, chomping ferns, taking a nap, playing, socialising, having a scratch, having a drink, chasing each other, dying on a cross to save humanity from its sins. Not being monsters, not anthropomorphised, no cheesy voiceovers. My ideal Jurassic Park would be one in which the dinosaurs never escape and everything goes swimmingly. It perhaps wouldn't make one billion dollars.
All of this. 100%.

xeno-kaname

xeno-kaname

#10406
Quote
Chickens are T-rex relatives and they do not have two Brains!

Oh.

ace3g


DarthJoker45

DarthJoker45

#10408
Take this with some skepticism, but it appears that a low-quality picture of the D-Rex has leaked. Thanks to comicbookmovie.com for sharing this.


Spoiler
[close]

ace3g

ace3g

#10409

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