Sad after watching Aliens

[Highland]

So are we in agreement that Alien 3 is the TLJ of the Alien series?

Nooooo way! Surely Rez has that packaged and delivered.

[Local Trouble]

AR is more like The Holiday Special.

[kwisatz]

You are more like The Holiday Special.

[SpreadEagleBeagle]

I mean, the honorary title flawed "masterpiece" can't be implemented on any movie you like. But I'll still admit that subjectivity still plays a big part of it.

I'd say in order to call something a flawed masterpiece it needs to pack enough qualities and undeniable brilliance - that is more or less on par with a capital M masterpiece - to somewhat counter its share of irreconcilable flaws and blunders.

Here is a selection of criteria:
- Does the movie have great acting? (I'd say this is a must to qualify)
- Does the movie have enough memorable characters? (this one is extremely important)
- Does the movie have one or more scenes worthy of a true masterpiece movie? (definitely very important)
- Is the movie unique for its supposed genre? (absolutely an important criterion)
- Does the movie challenge the viewer? (important as well)
- Does the movie excel visually and/or musically and/or sound-wise on an artistic level? (more or less important depending on the genre)

I mean, I'm sure there are plenty of other criteria one could come up with, but I'd say any flawed or botched movie, with its share of studio/production issues, that checks all of those boxes probably qualify as a quote on quote flawed masterpiece. A3 checks all of the boxes above. But does those qualities outweigh A3's flaws and blunders? I'd personally say YES and plenty of people seem to agree.

I'd also say that time (as in aging) is an important factor as it's sometimes hard to acknowledge said qualities until a few years or even decades have passed since the potential flawed masterpiece's release. I'd say the term "underrated" is also something that comes to mind. And thus another, less "offensive" title for a movie like A3 would be an underrated gem. But since A3 has gained a following and has started have it's qualities and greatness acknowledged, I'd say that "underrated" is no longer fully appropriate.

[Local Trouble]

You are more like The Holiday Special.

I...

I can't deny that. 

[kwisatz]

You are more like The Holiday Special.

I...

I can't deny that. 

Spoiler

[close]

[SM]

But see, I never felt it was a sweet ending. Sure, Ripley and Newt are seemingly cured from PTSD having conquer/destroy their fear evokers, but theyre going back in someone elses ship with all the crew dead and wiped out side from one. Aside from barely alive Hicks, no one had made it. Again, with the ominous music playing during the credits it always has been an eerie ending for me

It was a sweet ending for the main character.  She gained a new family as her reward.

Well, Ripley and Newt found each other and were able to fill each others gaps in life and losses, but that doesnt change the fact the losses are there and their close ones are dead, as is almost everyone that came on this ship to help

The losses are fairly insignificant to Ripley.

I just kinda realised this assertion actually doesn't apply to the SE though.

I mean in this case Ripley basically lost her very own daughter a couple of days/weeks (?) before the ending of the film and so one of the newly added family members all of a sudden transforms into a constant reminder of the child she lost only recently. Finally bringing Newt to bed could now (also) be interpreted as sort of a retroactive farewell to Amanda in the SE (maybe even a bit of a "calm" funeral), psychologically super important for the main character and aesthetically super pleasing on a more symbolic level imo. A long sleep awaits Newt - an even longer one Amanda: ambiguous music playing. Or is it eerie? Dunno have to re-listen.

Actually now that I think about it Aliens pretty much reminds of the The Descent in the way the psychological state of Ripley is interwoven with the superficial action of the film. In the end overcoming the trauma that is a child loss via reprocessing, retroactively performing the rites, or just being there for someone who needs you: Newt acting as a proxy in all this. The memory of Amanda finally entering quieter inner realms. Newts being saved on behalf of Amanda (Lacan lul).

So I dunno -- this taken into consideration StrangeShapes perception of the ending might even be more in tune with Camerons original vision of the whole thing? I mean the ending can still be called 'sweet' in a way, I guess, but the SE adds this different tone for me.

Just a couple of random thoughts before bedtime --

The woman that was Amanda was a stranger to Ripley. The SE makes that angle a little contrived. 'Oh you lost your daughter? Nevermind, here's a new one.'

By excising Amanda it makes Ripley more selfless.

[SiL]

Nooooo way! Surely Rez has that packaged and delivered.

I second this motion.

- Does the movie have great acting? (I'd say this is a must to qualify)

Sure.

- Does the movie have enough memorable characters? (this one is extremely important)

Define "enough".

I'd say Alien 3 doesn't compared to the volume of characters we're saddled with for its runtime. It kills off named characters and keeps faceless, vaguely numbered background extras through to the conclusion. It's a fairly common complaint levelled against the movie.

- Does the movie have one or more scenes worthy enough of a true masterpiece movie? (definitely very important)

How do you even qualify this?

- Is the movie unique for its supposed genre? (absolutely an important criterion)

I'd argue this isn't that important and even if it were, Alien 3 doesn't qualify. Its supposed genre is sci-fi horror.

- Does the movie challenge the viewer? (important as well)

I'd also argue this is unimportant. Many masterpieces are crowd pleasers.

- Does the movie excel visually and/or musically and/or sound-wise on an artistic level? (more or less important depending on the genre)

"And/or" is overly generous.

I mean, I'm sure there are plenty of other criteria one could come up with, but I'd say any flawed or botched movie that checks all those boxes probably qualify as a quote on quote flawed masterpiece.

Film is a storytelling medium, and almost none of your criteria speak to storytelling. If a film fails at that most basic aspect the rest doesn't really matter -- and that's where Alien 3's flaws lie. Even a flawed masterpiece should have a solid script.

[SM]

The character criteria is a little odd considering the poster doesn't regard Aliens as a masterpiece. It had Newt, Burke, Vasquez and Hudson.

[Local Trouble]

Not to mention fan favorites like Crowe and Wierzbowski.

[SiL]

If you run Aliens to that criteria it ticks all of the boxes.

Great acting? Weaver was Oscar-nominated.

Enough memorable characters? Check.

One or more scenes worthy of a masterpiece movie? The lead-up to Operations is a masterpiece in building tension.

Unique for its supposed genre? It defined what a sci-fi action should be.

Challenge the viewer? It gave them an action movie sequel to a horror movie.

Excel visually/musically/sound-wise on an artistic level? Osscar nominations across the board for production design, score, and sound.

And it has a solid script.

[SpreadEagleBeagle]

- Does the movie have great acting? (I'd say this is a must to qualify)

Sure.

Holy Moses, we agree on something!

- Does the movie have enough memorable characters? (this one is extremely important)

Define "enough".

Enough as in enough characters to tell a story and develop it and push it forward without relying solely on the main character/protagonist in proportion to the premise and concept of the story/movie.

I'd say Alien 3 doesn't compared to the volume of characters we're saddled with for its runtime. It kills off named characters and keeps faceless, vaguely numbered background extras through to the conclusion. It's a fairly common complaint levelled against the movie.

And that's a fair complaint by any metric. Still, other than Ripley we have Clemens, Aaron, Andrews, Morse, Golic and last by not the least, Dillon. I don't want to count Bishop the human as he's basically based on Bishop the droid, which is an ALIENS character.

- Does the movie have one or more scenes worthy enough of a true masterpiece movie? (definitely very important)

How do you even qualify this?

Are there scenes that hit all the right notes an hit the spot on an artistic, emotional, visual, narrative storytelling level that in one way or another elevates the story, adds additional gravity or/and immersion, or presents or concludes an important event in the journey of the movie and the story it is telling? A scene that really makes and imprint in more ways than one.

- Is the movie unique for its supposed genre? (absolutely an important criterion)

I'd argue this isn't that important and even if it were, Alien 3 doesn't qualify. Its supposed genre is sci-fi horror.

It is important but definitely not crucial. And yes, A3 took a drama movie route no-tech lo-tech route, which is quite atypical for sci-fi movies.

- Does the movie challenge the viewer? (important as well)

I'd also argue this is unimportant. Many masterpieces are crowd pleasers.

Fair enough. Although being a crowd pleaser does not make a masterpiece. But I'd have to agree that challenging the viewer is not universally important. It's more of an added bonus.

- Does the movie excel visually and/or musically and/or sound-wise on an artistic level? (more or less important depending on the genre)

"And/or" is overly generous.

It depends on the movie or genre. A3 definitely excels visually and musically on an artistic level, especially the latter.

I mean, I'm sure there are plenty of other criteria one could come up with, but I'd say any flawed or botched movie that checks all those boxes probably qualify as a quote on quote flawed masterpiece.

Film is a storytelling medium, and almost none of your criteria speak to storytelling. If a film fails at that most basic aspect the rest doesn't really matter -- and that's where Alien 3's flaws lie. Even a flawed masterpiece should have a solid script.

A3 tells its story and follows suite, so I don't agree with you on this one. Sure, one could say that the opening is botched because of the mystery egg and the conflicting presence of two facehuggers vs. a super facehugger, same goes with the dog vs. ox host parallel, and the bait and chase sequence is somewhat confusing... But other than that the story progression and plot works well and delivers a great and oddly fitting end to the movie and the original trilogy.

[SM]

The second half is generally okay. First half wastes a lot of time. As far as story telling goes it's a long, long way behind the first two.

[SpreadEagleBeagle]

If you run Aliens to that criteria it ticks all of the boxes.

Great acting? Weaver was Oscar-nominated.

Well, the over all acting performance in A3 does blow ALIENS out of the water, and Sigourney's acting in A3 is just as good if not better than her acting in ALIENS.

Enough memorable characters? Check.

Yeah, memorable in a two-dimensional archetype kind of way...

One or more scenes worthy of a masterpiece movie? The lead-up to Operations is a masterpiece in building tension.

I'd say it qualifies even though I personally don't think it's up to par. I guess it's a case of different strokes, different blokes.

Unique for its supposed genre? It defined what a sci-fi action should be.

You can't deem A3 as not being unique and then at the same time label ALIENS as such.

Challenge the viewer? It gave them an action movie sequel to a horror movie.

Talk about backwards reasoning! Again, action movies, sci-fi movies and monster flicks were booming in the 80s, ALIENS combined them all. ALIENS did the opposite of challenging the audience - it fed them exactly what they wanted.

Excel visually/musically/sound-wise on an artistic level? Osscar nominations across the board for production design, score, and sound.

The score is great but generic and predictable, the sound is great, and the production design was groundbreaking and full of detail but on a functionally contemporary level. The only truly visually artistic thing I can think of in ALIENS is the Queen design, which I admit is no small feat.

And it has a solid script.

To be honest though it's a rehash of ALIEN on a grander scale with war movie narratives thrown in the there.

[BlueMarsalis79]

And motherhood.

I think you're overrating one and underrating the other honestly.

But I do agree that Alien³'s score blows Aliens' score out of the water.