Sad after watching Aliens

[Highland]

I don't see why Alien 3 isn't a rehash of Alien. Aliens introduces enough new stuff to expand the galaxy, where as A3 only introduces the Dog. A3 could be set in 1984 in North Yorkshire.

[SiL]

Holy Moses, we agree on something!

When have I said the film's without merit?

Enough as in enough characters to tell a story and develop it and push it forward without relying solely on the main character/protagonist in proportion to the premise and concept of the story/movie.

You specified memorable, now it's just characters?

Are there scenes that hit all the right notes an hit the spot on an artistic, emotional, visual, narrative storytelling level that in one way or another elevates the story, adds additional gravity or/and immersion, or presents or concludes an important event in the journey of the movie and the story it is telling? A scene that really makes and imprint in more ways than one.

This is a requirement of any good scene, not a masterpiece scene.

And yes, A3 took a drama movie route no-tech lo-tech route, which is quite atypical for sci-fi movies.

It's not unique, and the film's intended genre was sci-fi horror, not drama.

A3 tells its story

Poorly. It tells its story poorly. It opens with a plothole and barges on aimlessly until the second act. There's no real plot to speak of until Clemens dies almost 40 minutes in, just a disjointed series of conversations and bloodbaths that happen to end up in the same room together. Ripley's entire journey for the first half an hour is to find out what the audience did by the end of the opening credits.

Well, the over all acting performance in A3 does blow ALIENS out of the water, and Sigourney's acting in A3 is just as good if not better than her acting in ALIENS.

Another being better doesn't stop the other being good.

Yeah, memorable in a two-dimensional archetype kind of way...

You listed Morse and Golic as memorable characters. They're not even two-dimensional, they're one note. Golic's barely a character in the theatrical cut. This is goalpost shifting at its finest.

You can't deem A3 as not being unique and then at the same time label ALIENS as such.

There was no sci-fi action film like it before. Grimy existential sci-fi drama had been done.

Talk about backwards reasoning! Again, action movies, sci-fi movies and monster flicks were booming in the 80s, ALIENS combined them all. ALIENS did the opposite of challenging the audience - it fed them exactly what they wanted.

Shifting genre from one film to the sequel wasn't a done thing. Aliens set the trend.

To be honest though it's a rehash of ALIEN on a grander scale with war movie narratives thrown in the there.

It follows the same plot beats, sure, but it builds on them. It's no retread. Sure, Ripley goes back to save the helpless member of the team as everything is going to hell -- but trying to say Newt is a rehash of Jonesy is disingenuous.

[Voodoo Magic]

Since we are on the topic of masterpieces...

'Predator 2' at 30: A misunderstood masterpiece?
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/predator-2-30-misunderstood-masterpiece-161709172.html

You are more like The Holiday Special.

I...

I can't deny that. 

[Kradan]

I wouldn't call Predator 2 a masterpiece (I wouldn't call first one either) but I'll be damned if it's not hell of a fun ride

[BigDaddyJohn]

I wouldn't call Predator 2 a masterpiece (I wouldn't call first one either) but I'll be damned if it's not hell of a fun ride

Oh god... The storm's coming 

[Kradan]

I know 

[kwisatz]

But see, I never felt it was a sweet ending. Sure, Ripley and Newt are seemingly cured from PTSD having conquer/destroy their fear evokers, but theyre going back in someone elses ship with all the crew dead and wiped out side from one. Aside from barely alive Hicks, no one had made it. Again, with the ominous music playing during the credits it always has been an eerie ending for me

It was a sweet ending for the main character.  She gained a new family as her reward.

Well, Ripley and Newt found each other and were able to fill each others gaps in life and losses, but that doesnt change the fact the losses are there and their close ones are dead, as is almost everyone that came on this ship to help

The losses are fairly insignificant to Ripley.

I just kinda realised this assertion actually doesn't apply to the SE though.

I mean in this case Ripley basically lost her very own daughter a couple of days/weeks (?) before the ending of the film and so one of the newly added family members all of a sudden transforms into a constant reminder of the child she lost only recently. Finally bringing Newt to bed could now (also) be interpreted as sort of a retroactive farewell to Amanda in the SE (maybe even a bit of a "calm" funeral), psychologically super important for the main character and aesthetically super pleasing on a more symbolic level imo. A long sleep awaits Newt - an even longer one Amanda: ambiguous music playing. Or is it eerie? Dunno have to re-listen.

Actually now that I think about it Aliens pretty much reminds of the The Descent in the way the psychological state of Ripley is interwoven with the superficial action of the film. In the end overcoming the trauma that is a child loss via reprocessing, retroactively performing the rites, or just being there for someone who needs you: Newt acting as a proxy in all this. The memory of Amanda finally entering quieter inner realms. Newts being saved on behalf of Amanda (Lacan lul).

So I dunno -- this taken into consideration StrangeShapes perception of the ending might even be more in tune with Camerons original vision of the whole thing? I mean the ending can still be called 'sweet' in a way, I guess, but the SE adds this different tone for me.

Just a couple of random thoughts before bedtime --

The woman that was Amanda was a stranger to Ripley.

Definitely, but that's why I initially compared Ripley's situation to someone who 'actually' loses a child in presence. Even though Ripley is told Amanda got fairly old (I think?) she completely vanished from her life as a 10 year-old and died as a woman that is a complete stranger to her. I always assumed psychologically this must be pretty much the same experience like when your child actually had died as a child. Nihilistic feelings kicking although your Ratio keeps telling you that she likely lived a (fulfilled) life in another time; you just didn't participate in.

The SE makes that angle a little contrived. 'Oh you lost your daughter? Nevermind, here's a new one.'

On the other hand it provides in a very pleasing manner a highly appropriate motivation for Ripley's transformation into full badass heroine mode near the end. Take that away and you lose a bit of the realistic/psychological angle and partially shift into purer action-hero territory (although ja, it's still a child she's trying to rescue - I guess it's sufficiently motivated either way; the SE just adds this little extra something that sorta makes the whole thing close to an almost determined reaction: a mother that would rather die than lose 'her' child again).

By excising Amanda it makes Ripley more selfless.

Overall I prefer the TC version of Ripley too it's just that I can't unsee the 'mother preparing her other child for an endless sleep' image at the end of Aliens anymore since I watched the SE for the first time. It also sorta elevates a film that is often enough a bit too broad-brush for me (actually the whole Mother/Daughter symbolism in a way is too; not at the end though where it entwines everything pretty neatly due to the 'endless sleep/death' image being naturally provided by the SciFi-setting as a whole).

[Voodoo Magic]

I wouldn't call Predator 2 a masterpiece (I wouldn't call first one either) but I'll be damned if it's not hell of a fun ride

Oh god... The storm's coming 

I know 

[Local Trouble]

I wouldn't call Predator 2 a masterpiece (I wouldn't call first one either) but I'll be damned if it's not hell of a fun ride

Because they didn't have crabators?

[Kradan]

Well, yes. Obviously

[Highland]

Predator 2's funeral scene is better than Alien3. Now come at me.

[426Buddy]

Predator 2 is probably a better film than ALIEN 3...

[Kimarhi]

Depends on what you are going for.

[SiL]

Predator 2 has a better script.

[SM]

The bar isn't terribly high.