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What Is Canon & Should We Care About It? Fting. Author Alex White – AvP Galaxy Podcast #184

We have just uploaded the 184th episode of the Alien vs. Predator Galaxy Podcast (right-click and save as to download)! In our latest episode Alex White, the author of Alien: The Cold Forge and Alien: Into Charybdis joins regular hosts Corporal Hicks, RidgeTop and Xenomorphine to discuss the topic of canon.

 What Is Canon & Should We Care About It? Fting. Author Alex White - AvP Galaxy Podcast #184

We discuss the interpretations of canon, whether it matters to us as fans, whether it should matter to us as fans, working within the franchises and how canon affects the people who do, and plenty more!

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  1. Citixeno
    I saw a pragmatic take in the comment section as a new definition for canon, as "What holds predictive power" over what we might see in a film or video game in the future. Especially where it might restrict what a future writer or director can do.

    To me, that is really all that matters. Does it matter if Bishop Weyland in Alien-cubed was a human or a synthetic? Well, he was an android in the Colonial Marines video game, does that count? In so far as how that might restrict a future director? Highly unlikely. It won't matter.

    Same thing for the events in comic books. Ideas might get taken from the old comics, but probably not more than cosmetic ideas like a director saying "oooh that looks neat, send that to the design team and tell them the monster in this scene ought to resemble that and come up with some ideas based on it." And this is in the unlikely event they even see something from the comics at all.

    It's also possible that future directors will be allowed to disregard the events of movies that didn't do well in theatres. If you factor in the production cost, the marketing cost likely equaled, and the theatres taking their half, and the net is in the red, as in the movie lost money, then the studio execs could very well look at the whole thing like something they want the audience to forget going forward, and might even insist a director disregard the events of a film.

    Basically, the only hard predictive rules are that we shouldn't expect something obscure from the Dark Horse EU or video games to show up, references to the events of movies that lost money, or anything from another IP to show up. As Alex White pointed out, they cannot reference anything having to do with predators when the license is only for Aliens.

    So, what do I treat as "canon" for discussing what we might see in a movie? Basically, the events of Alien and Aliens.

    I'm still allowed to hope egg morphing and alternate ways of alien reproduction, besides the queen, are shown.

    Now that absolutely doesn't mean that we, as fans, shouldn't have fun speculating and discussing EU events in their own context. There is a lot of great stuff there for fun conversations. But we ought not pull hard rules from them and think they need to apply to anything a current author is doing.

    We also shouldn't devalue something just because it doesn't hold predictive power either. Want to discuss the stuff in Aliens: Genocide? Cool. How about a video game you loved? We shouldn't dismiss a topic just because it's about something non-canon either. I mean, we could watch all that the studio sees as canon in under 24 hours, but it would take much longer to re-read through all the comics, novels, and replay all the games. So, being non-canon shouldn't mean less value to our entertainment or imagination or that it is somehow less valuable for discussion. Again, we just shouldn't think hard predictive rules can be made from it. In fact, in regards to the Alien itself, it's better that there are fewer hard rules and more freedom for creatives so that they stay unpredictable and mysterious.
  2. TheBATMAN
    Another fascinating episode. I think the quiz will be a good addition. We do one on our resident evil podcast and it's usually the most popular segment. We get community members to submit questions each week.
  3. xShadowFoxX
    Quote from: GreybackElder on May 17, 2024, 01:45:45 AM
    Quote from: xShadowFoxX on May 16, 2024, 10:49:15 PM
    Quote from: The Cruentus on May 16, 2024, 10:45:07 PMCertain species of Wasp and some other parastic organisim will lay actual eggs/larval? into a host, so there is a precedence for. Bacterial/fungal infection is also possible but I'm not sure if it has done anything complex, I may be wrong of course.
    I was thinking the exact same thing, because wasn't the Alien based on those types of wasps? The idea of a bacterial infection as a sort of unintentional side effect I can buy into. Or a form of bacterial infection that protects the larva/embryo from human defenses.

    There is such thing as the Human bot fly. It lays its eggs into a mosquito(the vector.) from there the mosquito will bite a human and then deliver the eggs into the bite wound. Then the eggs will erupt from painful lesions in the skin. Not too dissimilar from the Alien life cycle.

    As far as bacterial or fungal like infection that may prevent attack from the host's immune system, it's definitely an interesting take. Usually when an invading bacteria overtake the normal flora of the host, infection may occur.




    Bot flies are gross but they do come very close to the Alien in some form.
  4. GreybackElder
    Quote from: xShadowFoxX on May 16, 2024, 10:49:15 PM
    Quote from: The Cruentus on May 16, 2024, 10:45:07 PMCertain species of Wasp and some other parastic organisim will lay actual eggs/larval? into a host, so there is a precedence for. Bacterial/fungal infection is also possible but I'm not sure if it has done anything complex, I may be wrong of course.
    I was thinking the exact same thing, because wasn't the Alien based on those types of wasps? The idea of a bacterial infection as a sort of unintentional side effect I can buy into. Or a form of bacterial infection that protects the larva/embryo from human defenses.

    There is such thing as the Human bot fly. It lays its eggs into a mosquito(the vector.) from there the mosquito will bite a human and then deliver the eggs into the bite wound. Then the eggs will erupt from painful lesions in the skin. Not too dissimilar from the Alien life cycle.

    As far as bacterial or fungal like infection that may prevent attack from the host's immune system, it's definitely an interesting take. Usually when an invading bacteria overtake the normal flora of the host, infection may occur.


  5. SM
    You might be right there actually.

    EDIT

    Here we go (I don't know when Mike wrote this, but Anchorpoint has been offline a long time now)

    QuoteThe Development Theory

    The current, and most widely accepted theory, suggests that the use of the tube-like mouth parts may not be for the depositing of an embryo in the chest of the potential host organism, but possibly a means of regulating TTXIR which renders the host unconscious and the introduction of a viral agent - which would then make the host body responsible for the creation of an embryo in much the same fashion that an organ may be produced through the creation and designation/specialization of various cells, via restructured genetic coding. Under such an idea it is easily seen how an Alien embryo would be able to adapt to varying host organisms, and vise versa. This idea would also better explain the positioning of the embryo in the host's mediastinum, when the Facehugger's mouthparts are known to only extend part way down the host's esophagus.

    The use of the host's esophagus is still vital to the play of this particular theory. The esophagus' lining is a mucus membrane, which would greatly aid in the transmission of genetic material. Once the DNA restructuring material has successfully altered the host's genetic code the host body would then begin the development and growth of the I. raptus embryo as if it were part of its own physiology. In effect the host organism's body is being told to create the embryo in the "free area" of the chest by it's own modified DNA. An additional benefit to altering a host's DNA so as to plant an embryo is there would be no rejection of the embryo as it is now seen as part of the host organism's natural structure. For more information on this please see the DNA Reflex essay.
  6. SM
    It is based on the Ichneumon wasp. The host in those cases is an incubator.  With Alien the creature is influenced by the whatever form the host takes so it's a bit different.

    I'm sure I've said elsewhere that 'viral' theory has been fan theory long before White put it in a book. Though I don't recall the exact term 'viral' being used.
  7. xShadowFoxX
    Quote from: The Cruentus on May 16, 2024, 10:45:07 PMCertain species of Wasp and some other parastic organisim will lay actual eggs/larval? into a host, so there is a precedence for. Bacterial/fungal infection is also possible but I'm not sure if it has done anything complex, I may be wrong of course.
    I was thinking the exact same thing, because wasn't the Alien based on those types of wasps? The idea of a bacterial infection as a sort of unintentional side effect I can buy into. Or a form of bacterial infection that protects the larva/embryo from human defenses.
  8. The Cruentus
    Certain species of Wasp and some other parastic organisim will lay actual eggs/larval? into a host, so there is a precedence for. Bacterial/fungal infection is also possible but I'm not sure if it has done anything complex, I may be wrong of course.
  9. xShadowFoxX
    Quote from: SM on May 16, 2024, 10:33:52 PM
    Quote from: xShadowFoxX on May 16, 2024, 10:23:41 PM
    Quote from: SM on May 16, 2024, 10:18:48 PMThe 'infection' forms the embryo.
    Xenomorphine caught it tho, because in Aliens, Bishop specifically says "embryo implantation".

    People have been trying that (very lacking in detail) line for years though, and it's been a non-argument the whole time. What else do embryos do? A human embryo is formed when sperm meets egg and implants in the uterine wall. With Aliens it's 'sperm' from hugger interacting in the host; resulting lifeform is implanted.
    All that I can get on board with. But in this episode, White was suggesting that this sort of viral infection from facehugger to host and that the film Covenant basically confirmed that, which made my head explode. I think I just prefer the idea of this pre made embryo just being stored within the facehugger just waiting to be implanted rather than this viral infection which I attribute more to the black goo.
  10. SM
    Quote from: xShadowFoxX on May 16, 2024, 10:23:41 PM
    Quote from: SM on May 16, 2024, 10:18:48 PMThe 'infection' forms the embryo.
    Xenomorphine caught it tho, because in Aliens, Bishop specifically says "embryo implantation".

    People have been trying that (very lacking in detail) line for years though, and it's been a non-argument the whole time. What else do embryos do? A human embryo is formed when sperm meets egg and implants in the uterine wall. With Aliens it's 'sperm' from hugger interacting in the host; resulting lifeform is implanted.
  11. The Cruentus
    In recent years I have gone back to preferring the embryonic version. The Alien creature seems too complex an organism for ooze to turn into a chestburster in such a short time. At least with a larval there is a base structure for it to work witanh, d there is more precedence in nature that I can think of from the top of my head. Speed still an issue of course. Black goo is just too macguffiny and basically whatever the plot needs to be
  12. xShadowFoxX
    I wasn't going to listen, initially, because of all the things I didn't feel like hearing about was canon. And then this morning, I listened and I'm like 'this is actually a great f*ckin episode' because a lot of White's, Xenomophine's, and Ridgetop's views on it actually resonated with me. The only thing I didn't like was the idea of the facehugger providing this sort of infection rather than this embryonic implantation, like that's weird.
  13. GreybackElder
    Great episode! I also, loved the inclusion of Alex White. The Cold Forge and Into Charybdis are my favorite alien novels.

    There are so many points mentioned here that resonated with me. The most true statement(forgive me im paraphrasing)was cannon doesn't matter to you unless it goes against your held views or goes against what you believe to be true.

    That's got to be why I disliked the direction of covenant. To me Alien has always been a horror born in the deepest darkest recesses of space.  NOT something created by Engineers(or David) for that matter. Turning the Alien into a tool seems to pull back the curtain too much and make it less mysterious and frightening.

    As far as cannon goes, I hold the Alien films, book and comics, and AVP as different cannons, but hey that's just me.
  14. The Cruentus
    I think those changes piss people off regardless of whether it was Ridley's idea or not.
    That all being said, it does seem like the knife is twisted more when the guy that was at least partly responsible for how good Alien is, managed to screw the lore even worse than AVP ever did.
  15. SM
    Quote from: Kradan on May 16, 2024, 12:00:39 PM
    Quote from: SiL on May 16, 2024, 09:04:36 AMEvery film's burster has looked different. It doesn't tell us anything other than the directors wanted something specific.

    Still, Covenant one was a BIG departure in comparision to the other ones

    The only departure was behaviour. Physically it was similar to the Fiorina creature or Ripley's Queen. Fair way from Kane's original that had little nubs instead arms and no legs.
  16. David Weyland
    At the end of the day think the variables in the species and the lifecycle adds depth.

    For example, you could argue the Derelict's eggs were dormant for a long period of time so the metabolic reaction of the Face hugger's payload was  as a result slower, more sleepy in growing.

    The only other long gestation in the franchise is Ripley's Queen in Alien 3. She had been in hypersleep so maybe a delay factor in that too.

    Covenant's fast gestations can be explained as just a result of a very fresh creation that David made eggs without a Queen & harnessed direct from the pathogen with human dna so there was a more rapid reaction perhaps.
    Anyway don't think it is an unfillable plot hole or an unsolvable contradiction
  17. SiL
    Quote from: Slutty Badger on May 16, 2024, 08:18:49 AM
    Quote from: SiL on May 15, 2024, 09:09:45 PMThose distinctions don't exist in the movies, deal with it.

    They're right there on screen! The chestburster in Covenant even looks different to the regular version, telling us that this is a distinct variant of Xeno.
    Every film's burster has looked different. It doesn't tell us anything other than the directors wanted something specific.
  18. The Cruentus
    Quote from: Slutty Badger on May 16, 2024, 08:18:49 AM
    Quote from: SiL on May 15, 2024, 09:09:45 PMThose distinctions don't exist in the movies, deal with it.

    They're right there on screen! The chestburster in Covenant even looks different to the regular version, telling us that this is a distinct variant of Xeno.

    Alien in Aliens have different heads, Alien in Alien 3 has no dorsal tubes and has a different biomech structure.  Plus that burster was different too.
    Design differences does not necessarily mean different species.

    As far as the movie and Ridley is concerned, its the Alien and David created it. You don't have to like it, I don't, heck most don't
  19. Prez
    Quote from: SM on May 15, 2024, 10:37:06 AM
    Quote from: Prez on May 15, 2024, 09:20:19 AMWow. So many questions I want to ask you @SM. Never knew this. How does one get into a position to be even asked to write such a thing - I'm very intrigued (and forgive my ignorance if this is covering old ground for you).

    It's down to SD Perry who put me in contact with Fox licensing while she was writing the Weyland-Yutani Report, and Willie Goldman who put me in touch with them again after staff changes and I lost contact.

    After the Disney takeover the licensing staff were all laid off and I've not had contact since.

    That's pretty amazing. Wow, what a gig! Shame about the crickets from Disney.
  20. Still Collating...
    Quote from: The Cruentus on May 15, 2024, 09:11:04 PMThey are one in the same as far as Ridley is concerned. It will take a film to retcon it, not a tier II.

    That's exactly the problem...

    Quote from: The Cruentus on May 15, 2024, 08:09:33 PMYep. The life-cycle may have been stupidly fast in AVP but at least they didn't infect people in seconds.
     
    He was trying to intentionally contradict AVP with his prequels too.  :laugh:

    AvP at least remembered what Chestbursters look like. I mean, even AvPR's chestbursters were more accurate and closer to the original chestburster, than Ridley's "creative" endeavor in Covenant, which is hillarious. I know why he did it, I get the symbolism. The design is still ridiculous. You could've gotten the same message across with a different design. And that scene is a lot less important anyway. You can still make it to look like David's triumph without the silly hands in the air.
  21. dnicholson277
    Quote from: Samhain13 on May 15, 2024, 06:39:00 PM
    Quote from: The Cruentus on May 13, 2024, 06:37:58 PMSame thing until the RPG made the distinction and even then, bar room canon, camp fire tales.

    Also cold forge huggers were meant to be the "normal" ones and still injected instantly.

    So my comment still stands.
    Quote from: The Cruentus on May 13, 2024, 06:14:00 PM"52:39"

    Bishop says.

    "Surgically removed before embryo implantation."

    Facehuggers die after what they do, the reason why those two huggers are still alive in those tubes is because they were removed before implantation can happen. So its previously established they don't instantly inject stuff.....

    However....Cold forge and covenant have it that the black goo is injected instantly......

    Sounds like a contradiction to me.


    Kane's xray?

    I blame Ridley for this, guy just doesnt give a shit and dick slaps any canon on his way into extinction.

    They needed another alien on the movie, easier to just add the insta implantation crap. So since people wanted to fit in with his retcon they tried to follow on it.

    Kinda find it laughable that the maestro Ridders does the dirty on the lifecycle in a way that's worse than AVP Anderson but people make excuses.
  22. Samhain13
    Quote from: The Cruentus on May 13, 2024, 06:37:58 PMSame thing until the RPG made the distinction and even then, bar room canon, camp fire tales.

    Also cold forge huggers were meant to be the "normal" ones and still injected instantly.

    So my comment still stands.
    Quote from: The Cruentus on May 13, 2024, 06:14:00 PM"52:39"

    Bishop says.

    "Surgically removed before embryo implantation."

    Facehuggers die after what they do, the reason why those two huggers are still alive in those tubes is because they were removed before implantation can happen. So its previously established they don't instantly inject stuff.....

    However....Cold forge and covenant have it that the black goo is injected instantly......

    Sounds like a contradiction to me.


    Kane's xray?

    I blame Ridley for this, guy just doesnt give a shit and dick slaps any canon on his way into extinction.

    They needed another alien on the movie, easier to just add the insta implantation crap. So since people wanted to fit in with his retcon they tried to follow on it.
  23. Nightmare Asylum
    Quote from: Local Trouble on May 15, 2024, 06:06:19 AMSM writing the Creative Bible:

    https://i.imgur.com/lqoK94S.jpeg
    Quote from: Kradan on May 15, 2024, 06:12:45 AMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TMuAVK2WBQ
    Quote from: SM on May 15, 2024, 06:37:11 AM
    Quote from: Local Trouble on May 15, 2024, 06:06:19 AMSM writing the Creative Bible:

    https://i.imgur.com/lqoK94S.jpeg

    Accurate.

    I certainly hope these monk activities are happening on a wooden planet.
  24. SM
    Quote from: Local Trouble on May 15, 2024, 08:37:48 AM
    Quote from: SM on May 15, 2024, 08:03:37 AMWhen I spoke to them about joining the RPG project they complimented me on how comprehensive it was, and how helpful it would be.

    So they used it and didn't even credit you?

    I was paid by Fox so it was their property to provide to licensees. They weren't required to credit me. I ended up in the Special Thanks box with a million other people.

    Quote from: Prez on May 15, 2024, 09:20:19 AM
    Quote from: SM on May 15, 2024, 08:03:37 AMDon't know.  I've made no secret that I wrote most of it, which was back before the RPG started.  When I spoke to them about joining the RPG project they complimented me on how comprehensive it was, and how helpful it would be.

    So unless you're talking about something different - another bible - I'm not sure?  The one I worked on is not the one Ridley talked about in interviews around the time of Covenant.

    Wow. So many questions I want to ask you @SM. Never knew this. How does one get into a position to be even asked to write such a thing - I'm very intrigued (and forgive my ignorance if this is covering old ground for you).

    It's down to SD Perry who put me in contact with Fox licensing while she was writing the Weyland-Yutani Report, and Willie Goldman who put me in touch with them again after staff changes and I lost contact.

    After the Disney takeover the licensing staff were all laid off and I've not had contact since.
  25. Prez
    Quote from: SM on May 15, 2024, 08:03:37 AMDon't know.  I've made no secret that I wrote most of it, which was back before the RPG started.  When I spoke to them about joining the RPG project they complimented me on how comprehensive it was, and how helpful it would be.

    So unless you're talking about something different - another bible - I'm not sure?  The one I worked on is not the one Ridley talked about in interviews around the time of Covenant.

    Wow. So many questions I want to ask you @SM. Never knew this. How does one get into a position to be even asked to write such a thing - I'm very intrigued (and forgive my ignorance if this is covering old ground for you).
  26. SM
    Don't know.  I've made no secret that I wrote most of it, which was back before the RPG started.  When I spoke to them about joining the RPG project they complimented me on how comprehensive it was, and how helpful it would be.

    So unless you're talking about something different - another bible - I'm not sure?  The one I worked on is not the one Ridley talked about in interviews around the time of Covenant.
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