Has AvPR improved wih age?

[SpreadEagleBeagle]

SIL

They died off-screen in their sleep -- that's not glorious. Their death can be "honoured" to high hell later for all I care, that doesn't change the fact the actual act of their deaths was cheap and to generate shock and disorientation in the audience. Stop trying to redefine the argument.

I'm redefining the argument because I don't agree with your redefinition of the argument?

You're dead wrong SiL. Their deaths had a meaningful purpose on all levels. They set the bleak and harsh tone of the film and directly contributed to the most poignant, emotional and poetic scene and moment in all of the movies. How is that cheap?

That is so rich coming from someone who says that a cast made primarily of faceless -- and in some cases, literally nameless -- prison inmates who exist only to die is actually some profound metaphysical statement about God and man's place in the universe, but that using contemporary conventions in Aliens to set a mood and expectation that gets flipped on its head is a sign of shitty, sub-par writing.

You're the one cherry picking, not me. I'm calling spades spades.

That's just your interpretation of it all, not the law of the land. I think we both can agree that we both think that the other one is cherry picking. You're cherry picking SiL, just like me. Check your own post concerning this topic (ALIENS vs then other movies) and you'll see. For the notice I'm not denying that I cherry pick too, the difference is that I'm not trying to camouflage as objective truths like you do, calling a spade a spade...

By pointing out that its ending is no happier than Alien's...? Because that's really the only compliment I've given it. You must really, really f**king hate the movie to see someone saying "It's not happier than the original" as the same as saying "It's flawless". Get a grip.

No, you have defended it in more ways than that through the years. Whenever someone critiques ALIENS for whatever reason you're one of many knights in shiny white armor defending it no matter what.

I don't hate ALIENS, I'm just tired of its special exempt status and the way other movies are always compared to it as if it is the pinnacle of movie making. ALIENS has it qualities - it is entertaining and is very well-made technically, but it is quite cheesy and the end is really silly and really ruins it for me.

[SiL]

You're cherry picking SiL, just like me.

I'm not, I'm only responding to the arguments you're making. You criticize Aliens' happy ending, I point out it's no happier than Alien, etc. That's not cherry picking.

No, you have defended it in more ways than that through the years. Whenever someone critiques ALIENS for whatever reason you're one of many knights in shiny white armor defending it no matter what.

You're either confusing me with someone else or you're pulling this out your arse to try to make some sort of point. I give each film credit where it's due and no more -- even for the ones I love. I defend against limp arguments but wholeheartedly agree with ones that point out actual flaws.

This whole thing started because you attacked Aliens for being mainstream but try to jump hoops to make Alien sound otherwise. They're both mainstream movies aimed at broad audiences, throwing shit on one and not the other is just your bias at play. I'm not trashing Alien or making Aliens sound like a flawless masterpiece by pointing out they're both very Hollywood films.

[predxeno]

SIL

They died off-screen in their sleep -- that's not glorious. Their death can be "honoured" to high hell later for all I care, that doesn't change the fact the actual act of their deaths was cheap and to generate shock and disorientation in the audience. Stop trying to redefine the argument.

I'm redefining the argument because I don't agree with your redefinition of the argument?

You're dead wrong SiL. Their deaths had a meaningful purpose on all levels. They set the bleak and harsh tone of the film and directly contributed to the most poignant, emotional and poetic scene and moment in all of the movies. How is that cheap?

In all fairness, I don't think those deaths affected the story that much either; the funeral scene is the only scene in the film that references their deaths.  Newt had an extra autopsy scene but it's pretty clear that was just for shock value, in fact the original autopsy scene was deemed to bloody by test audiences that they had to cut out a LOT of footage.  If their deaths were that significant then I think they would have been mentioned more often in the script; Hicks is barely talked about at all.

I don't hate ALIENS, I'm just tired of its special exempt status and the way other movies are always compared to it as if it is the pinnacle of movie making. ALIENS has it qualities - it is entertaining and is very well-made technically, but it is quite cheesy and the end is really silly and really ruins it for me.

I respect this, I know what it's like when the general population holds a movie to the highest regards that they overlook every single one of its flaws (Star Wars: Episode VII is the most obvious example) and then trash another movie whom possess those exact same weaknesses.  It's important to analyze even the best and worst movies in the same light (including Aliens); just because a great movie has flaws doesn't mean its worse, it just means its better for having a great story that overcomes those flaws.

[426Buddy]

I think people get too wound up in trying to figure out the flaws in movies that they like, they ruin it for themselves. There is no such thing as a perfect anything, when you find something you love, just enjoy it. If you keep scratching and picking at it then it turns into a bloody mess.

It's like saying the ending of aliens is cheesy, totally subjective, it is for some people and isn't to others.

[SpreadEagleBeagle]

I'm not, I'm only responding to the arguments you're making. You criticize Aliens' happy ending, I point out it's no happier than Alien, etc. That's not cherry picking.

But it IS happier than ALIEN. You're cherry picking when you compare the two movies and endings based on the structural makeup of each movie. It's like saying that pee and wine is the same thing as they're both liquids.

You're either confusing me with someone else or you're pulling this out your arse to try to make some sort of point. I give each film credit where it's due and no more -- even for the ones I love. I defend against limp arguments but wholeheartedly agree with ones that point out actual flaws.

We've had similar discussions before you and I, but also with other people. Anyhow, I doubt it that you and I will see eye to eye on this. You seem to believe that you're as objective as one can be. We're both prestigious obviously. So yeah, guess we could argue about this forever.

This whole thing started because you attacked Aliens for being mainstream but try to jump hoops to make Alien sound otherwise.

No I didn't. But I guess me daring to question ALIENS without questioning ALIEN as well qualifies as felony. ALIEN is mainstream too, obviously, but it's not the same kind of mainstream as ALIENS - not even close.

They're both mainstream movies aimed at broad audiences, throwing shit on one and not the other is just your bias at play. I'm not trashing Alien or making Aliens sound like a flawless masterpiece by pointing out they're both very Hollywood films.

Wow, first time you acknowledged that! Fact still remains that I haven't seen you scrutinize and pick apart ALIENS as you do with the other movies, especially A3.

[SiL]

But it IS happier than ALIEN. You're cherry picking when you compare the two movies and endings based on the structural makeup of each movie. It's like saying that pee and wine is the same thing as they're both liquids.

Both movies end with the character(s) fulfilling their goal and going to sleep peacefully. That's not cherry picking. Ripley wanted to survive in Alien, she got it. She wanted to survive and protect Newt, she got it. Both films end with the characters safe and satisfied; family or not, that's just dressing.

We've had similar discussions before you and I,

Yeah, and you always march out the same arguments and I march out the same counterarguments. That's why you think it's repetitive.

No I didn't.

Um:

ALIEN is mainstream too, obviously, but it's not the same kind of mainstream as ALIENS - not even close.

This. This is what I'm talking about. This is cherry picking, this is melodrama, this is bias, this is dumb.

Alien wasn't some midnight movie. It wasn't an underground sleeper hit. It wasn't a video nasty. It was a 20th Century Fox production, made because sci-fi and horror were "in" and they thought they could make a buck from it. It's a mainstream horror film from the 70s every bit as much as Aliens was a mainstream action/horror from the 80s. They were both designed to attract large audiences and make money.

There is no "grade", no "type". They were both made to make their audiences happy. Their audiences were largely the same people, but trends had changed in the 80s. If Alien had been made 10 years later, it would have been a very different film, even with the same people.

Fact still remains that I haven't seen you scrutinize and pick apart ALIENS as you do with the other movies, especially A3.

Then you haven't read many of my posts, because I've done it plenty in the past. Everyone here can vouch for that. Hell, Colin f**king Strause, co-director of AvP: Requiem, could tell you I don't like Aliens, because he personally derided me for the fact on this Forum.

[HuDaFuK]

In all fairness, I don't think those deaths affected the story that much either; the funeral scene is the only scene in the film that references their deaths.

Every time you say this, and every time you miss the point that their deaths completely establish Ripley's character for the entire film. And her character in the movie is one of the pivotal threads.

If they hadn't died, she would be a very different person. She would've been far more hopeful if they were still alive, whereas she's truthfully kinda given up. That entire angle is created by their deaths. So it hardly had zero impact on the story.

[predxeno]

Well, I didn't see any change in Ripley's character at all, hopeful or not.

[whiterabbit]

You know I think it's safe to say that AVPR did not improve with age. All anyone wants to talk about in the AVP Films forum is Alien³. 

[Randomizer]

That escalated quickly indeed.

[Valaquen]

In all fairness, I don't think those deaths affected the story that much either; the funeral scene is the only scene in the film that references their deaths.

Every time you say this, and every time you miss the point that their deaths completely establish Ripley's character for the entire film. And her character in the movie is one of the pivotal threads.

If they hadn't died, she would be a very different person. She would've been far more hopeful if they were still alive, whereas she's truthfully kinda given up. That entire angle is created by their deaths. So it hardly had zero impact on the story.

I know people have different interpretations of this, but for me ridding her of those two characters made her arc throughout the rest of the movie very hollow. Had she killed herself after Bishop II promised to reunite her with Newt (rather than the blatantly empty, "Eh, we'll give you a newer life!") and she turned it down, that would have been very powerful. Battering her into submission from the beginning deflated the whole character for me, as powerful as Weaver's performance was.

And I never thought I'd see the day where SiL was derided as some Aliens fanboi...

[predxeno]

That's not to mention that Alan Dean Foster wanted to write the novelization of the movie with Newt still alive and trapped in hypersleep; this shows that even if Newt had lived then Ripley's actions in Alien 3 wouldn't have changed that much.

[marrerom]

My white hot hatred for this film has diminished over the years.  Watching the disposable, retarded, and fake looking Aliens doesn't piss me off on a cellular level anymore. I've gotten over that. The movie is still unwatchable, only now its the scenes with the characters and their stupid problems of teen angst, reformed criminal, and mother who cant relate to daughter bullshit that kills it.   

[SpreadEagleBeagle]

In all fairness, I don't think those deaths affected the story that much either; the funeral scene is the only scene in the film that references their deaths.

Every time you say this, and every time you miss the point that their deaths completely establish Ripley's character for the entire film. And her character in the movie is one of the pivotal threads.

If they hadn't died, she would be a very different person. She would've been far more hopeful if they were still alive, whereas she's truthfully kinda given up. That entire angle is created by their deaths. So it hardly had zero impact on the story.

THIS!

[predxeno]

How was she more or less hopeful than in the other films?  That's what I don't get.  In Alan Dean Foster's original version, Newt lives and book Ripley does everything movie Ripley does.