All Star Wars

[Paranoid Android]

A new mystery!

[Highland]

A new mystery!

Actually the whole Luke scene being cut into the FA was something I was super interested in. I thought it was a real smart way of splicing a trilogy that they knew the story as opposed to making it up as they went.

Turns out - there was no story. Damn.

[bb-15]

PA, your argument is interesting but we come from such different directions that I have no expectation that we will come to an agreement.
And that's OK.
Still, since you responded to me directly, I'll give a reply.

Chekhov's Gun is about said elements being used - not about them being used to your liking. The author is obligated to tell a good story, but has zero obligation to tell the story you want to hear.

While you think your statement is in some way an accurate description of my viewpoint, it isn't. Here is what I believe.
1. What is "good" in film is subjective and personal to the individual viewer.
- That personal taste is not a starting point in my discussion here.
My argument has little to do with whether I like TLJ or not. It is about a comparison of story elements between films.
And this difference in approach is a major reason why our arguments greatly differ.
2. What I am mostly talking about is the characters and their characteristics.
- A characteristic of a character, like Rey, can be described by another character such as Maz Kanata in TFA.

Spoiler

From PA; "The relationship of a lightsaber with its user, which did come into play... she no longer wants to run away from her destiny."

My reply; You look at the Rey / lightsaber relationship as a metaphor.
- But I see the more direct meaning of Maz's words in the story.
The saber called to Vader. It had a special relationship with him. The saber called to his son. It had a special relationship with Luke. And now the saber calls to Rey.
- This lightsaber has a special relationship with certain people.
- And does Rey have a special relationship to the lightsaber in TLJ? Not really.
In TLJ Kylo makes it clear that Rey is not special. She's a nobody.
Therefore imo there is a contradiction between Maz's description of Rey and Kylo's view of her.

[close]

- A characteristic of the Jedi, their need for training before they can get the Force pull skill, can be shown in multiple films.

Spoiler

In TLJ, an untrained kid in a stable has the Force pull skill.
In TLJ Luke and Yoda discuss that the Jedi should end.
Therefore training is not really important.
Rey resists her training with Luke and that process breaks down.
Kylo is supposed to complete his training by killing Rey but never does it.

[close]

- This contradicts the description of these kinds of Force user characters in previous SW movies.
- And importantly, many professional film critics who adore this movie, describe it that way.
The overall pro movie critic view has been that anyone can be a powerful Force user completely on their own because of TLJ.
- This is why I previously mentioned that my view has little to do with what is considered good or bad.
The inconsistency of TLJ as a SW movie is widely described.
Whether that (and applying Chekov's Gun in this way) is good or bad goes back to personal taste. 
- A writing guideline can broken in TLJ but a pro film critic can like that because to them it's fresh or edgy.
Reactions vary.

This is a misappropriation of Chekhov's Gun.

There are lots of ways to apply the Chekhov's Gun concept in film.
To me our different approaches are equally valid with our different approaches to movies.

A proper use of Chekhov's Gun in literary/film criticism is:
Shaw: You made it here, and it was meant for us. Why? I need to know why! What did we do wrong? Why do you hate us?

Back to your words quoted above which really apply to you.

"The author ... has zero obligation to tell the story you want to hear."

- From my view, are the two main characters in "Prometheus" consistent in "Covenant"?

Shaw;

Spoiler

Yes.

[close]

Is there information in Prometheus" which gives insight into David's behavior in "Covenant"?

Spoiler

Yes.

[close]

I don't see a problem with my interpretation of Chekov's Gun and the two Alien prequels. The story flows depending on circumstances and interactions.

- I can apply my view to the original cast Star Trek movies;
Spock is calm/logical. McCoy is very emotional leaning towards complaining. While Kirk is a balance between those opposites.
Those characters are pretty much consistent in the Star Trek film franchise while the stories can vary quite a bit.

* Anyway, I think I'll agree to disagree.

[Paranoid Android]

Chekhov's Gun is about said elements being used - not about them being used to your liking. The author is obligated to tell a good story, but has zero obligation to tell the story you want to hear.

While you think your statement is in some way an accurate description of my viewpoint, it isn't. Here is what I believe.
1. What is "good" in film is subjective and personal to the individual viewer.
- That personal taste is not a starting point in my discussion here.
My argument has little to do with whether I like TLJ or not. It is about a comparison of story elements between films.
And this difference in approach is a major reason why our arguments greatly differ.

I think we both actually agree on this point, and you simply misunderstood me. My statement refers to "good" in terms of story mechanics/elements. As in, are the elements required for making a good story present in the story we're examining, or not? It is completely irrelevant if one likes/dislikes the  way they are used. I thought it was clear when I pointed out how Chekhov's Gun manifests itself in the new trilogy, but I guess I was mistaken, so I hope it's clear now.

2. What I am mostly talking about is the characters and their characteristics.
- A characteristic of a character, like Rey, can be described by another character such as Maz Kanata in TFA.

Spoiler

From PA; "The relationship of a lightsaber with its user, which did come into play... she no longer wants to run away from her destiny."

My reply; You look at the Rey / lightsaber relationship as a metaphor.
- But I see the more direct meaning of Maz's words in the story.
The saber called to Vader. It had a special relationship with him. The saber called to his son. It had a special relationship with Luke. And now the saber calls to Rey.
- This lightsaber has a special relationship with certain people.
- And does Rey have a special relationship to the lightsaber in TLJ? Not really.
In TLJ Kylo makes it clear that Rey is not special. She's a nobody.
Therefore imo there is a contradiction between Maz's description of Rey and Kylo's view of her.

[close]

The lightsaber does have a special relationship with Rey though. The Maz Kanata description you mention is featured in The Force Awakens, and is paid off in The Force Awakens in Rey's final battle with Kylo Ren, when the sword goes to Rey instead of Kylo. Chekhov's Gun seen - Chekhov's Gun fired. What you're asking for is for the gun to, for whatever reason, keep firing all the time, which is not how it is applied, nor is it a fair critique of The Last Jedi, since Luke's special relationship with his father's lightsaber doesn't feature in The Empire Strikes Back, and is completely abandoned in Return of the Jedi.

- A characteristic of the Jedi, their need for training before they can get the Force pull skill, can be shown in multiple films.

Actually, this is wrong. Luke never force pulls anything in A New Hope, yet in The Empire Strikes Back he just does it out of nowhere. Force pull = Training was never set up in the films.

Spoiler

In TLJ Luke and Yoda discuss that the Jedi should end.
Therefore training is not really important.
Rey resists her training with Luke and that process breaks down.
Kylo is supposed to complete his training by killing Rey but never does it.

[close]

Again, this is not a correct use of Checkhov's Gun. The correct use of it is that if the importance of training comes up earlier, in needs to lead to a point later.

Spoiler

Luke and Yoda don't discuss whether or not the Jedi should end. Luke asks Yoda if he was right, Yoda tells him 'no' and proceeds to lecture him about the importance of him passing on what he learned. Training is just as important in the new trilogy as they were in the original trilogy - it's about controlling your ability and learning the correct way to use it, not about unlocking skills.

Rey doesn't resist any training by Luke. She wants him to go with her because she needs his guidance, and he's the one who refuses.

Kylo Ren's completion of training is debatable (an argument can be made that killing Snoke is just as valid - the Sith 'rule of two' would definitely see that act as demonstrating the end of his training), however, again, the point of Checkov's Gun is that the need for him to complete the training would come up later - and it does. There's no requirement for him to actually complete it.

[close]

A proper use of Chekhov's Gun in literary/film criticism is:
Shaw: You made it here, and it was meant for us. Why? I need to know why! What did we do wrong? Why do you hate us?

Back to your words quoted above which really apply to you.

"The author ... has zero obligation to tell the story you want to hear."

- From my view, are the two main characters in "Prometheus" consistent in "Covenant"?

Shaw;

Spoiler

Yes.

[close]

Is there information in Prometheus" which gives insight into David's behavior in "Covenant"?

Spoiler

Yes.

[close]

I don't see a problem with my interpretation of Chekov's Gun and the two Alien prequels. The story flows depending on circumstances and interactions.

That wasn't the point I was making about Chekhov's Gun though. That quote isn't about Shaw or David - it's about setting up a mystery: Why do the Engineers hate us?
Is this mystery addressed in any way in any of the films after being set up? - No.

This is the type of thing Chekhov saw as introducing a gun that isn't used, or in other words: wasting the audience's time. If something is featured, it needs to be used. It doesn't matter whether you like the way it's used or not.

[kwisatz]

Lucas adding to his own mythology isn't a retcon.

For me the midichlorians are more or less a retcon. Either the Force is this transcendental "energy field" ("Luminous beings we are, ...") or its a materialized in world power that can even be measured by a blood test (Qui-Gon testing Anakin for his midichlorian count; "crude matter" after all).

As an analogy: The latter would be like the Vatican inventing a machine to measure the purity of your soul. It just doesnt make any sense from a logical perspective.

And its redundant anyway. Yoda says something along the lines that the Force surrounds and penetrates all living beings. Why would you need special living beings to communicate with it then? Being a living being yourself should be quite enough. And having more of them makes your connection stronger? How many does it take to Force Pull an X-Wing? Lets see, how much does an X-Wing weigh.... (Oh, now this is why Luke really failed!). Its just getting ridiculous.

I guess Lucas might have felt the need to implement such thing to explain the phenomenon of Force inheritance in certain familys but on the other side he sacrificed the extramundane aspect of the OT Force. Not a good idea in my eyes.

[Master]

Or maybe, just maybe those are beings living in those strong with the force? Luminous Beings after all.

[SM]

Lucas adding to his own mythology isn't a retcon.

For me the midichlorians are more or less a retcon. Either the Force is this transcendental "energy field" ("Luminous beings we are, ...") or its a materialized in world power that can even be measured by a blood test (Qui-Gon testing Anakin for his midichlorian count; "crude matter" after all).

As an analogy: The latter would be like the Vatican inventing a machine to measure the purity of your soul. It just doesnt make any sense from a logical perspective.

And its redundant anyway. Yoda says something along the lines that the Force surrounds and penetrates all living beings. Why would you need special living beings to communicate with it then? Being a living being yourself should be quite enough. And having more of them makes your connection stronger? How many does it take to Force Pull an X-Wing? Lets see, how much does an X-Wing weigh.... (Oh, now this is why Luke really failed!). Its just getting ridiculous.

I guess Lucas might have felt the need to implement such thing to explain the phenomenon of Force inheritance in certain familys but on the other side he sacrificed the extramundane aspect of the OT Force. Not a good idea in my eyes.

Midiclorians don't retcon anything.  The nature of the Force doesn't change between the OT and PT - it's just all living beings have midiclorians in their blood, and the higher concentration you have, the more potential you have to 'accessing' or feeling the Force and using it.

The merits or lack thereof of Lucas introducing them is obviously open to debate, but he added another dimension to the Force; he didn't change anything.

[kwisatz]

Hm, i think i made myself pretty clear with the transcendental/spiritual Force vs. the physical/biological Force distinction.

All i can do is resorting to my Vatican/Soul analagoy.

If say i would write a Scifi novel about the Vatican set dunno 10000 years in the future, where they, with the help of science, discover that the soul of an individual person is constituted by a life form nesting in our cells, so small, that it could not have been detected to this day, then i wouldnt just add another dimension to the Judeo-Christian theological concept of the soul, i would change its intrinsic nature entirely. I would first an foremost cut off the direct individual connection between God and every human being by interposing a mediator that grants access to God/the eternal or not.

Now in my mind this creates tons of problems for the whole concept of the Force.

One of the more important ones would be agency. Remember Qui-Gon describes these things as beings of their own not just a bunch of cells or something. Vader and any other Force User only has access to the Force through them. So basically nothing is really his fault.

It then only becomes a question whether more of your midichlorians lean towards the Dark or the Light Side cause they are the ones with the connection not you or your will or something. For all we know Luke could be much more of an evil charakter (shooting poor womp rats, there might as well been one with a high midichlorian count among them) but he got lucky on the distribution of midichlorians, where on the other hand his father might have been the kindest human being but too bad 90% Dark Side midichlorians.

Now Luke might be strong willed but he still couldnt lift that X-Wing, he prob just lacks 50 midichlorians. Yoda was wrong cause him doubting  matters jack if your midichlorian count doesnt yield it you can turn upside down that thing will stick in the mud (spiritual aspect gone, or at least rendered subsidiary). Yoda might sense Luke being strong with the force, but can he really sense a 50 midichlorian difference? Better let R2 take a blood sample.

Yea obviously i exaggerate  , still this is not my SW any longer, which i really dont have much of a problem with. Do these midichlorians become Force Ghosts too by the way? 

[SM]

I see what you're saying - but in Luke's case it wasn't a matter of midiclorian deficiency; it was simply a matter of belief.

So basically nothing is really his fault.

Why?  Anakin had a choice between selflessness and selfishness and chose the latter.

[DerelictShip]

These arguments will never end because it's too easy to nitpick others words on a forum. I hate TLJ, a lot of you like it, but I think it's fair enough to say, they made a decent film (I actually really loved, effects, sfx, and other elements that dont include a personal affiliation) that fit the star wars realm, but did not satisfy a great portion of its audience. I'm coming to accept this but the people who like the film can see why people like me don't like it, without using a fanboy excuse, because I'm not I just love the storyline. Star wars has always been (mostly) predictable and i just cant stop thinking how badass it would've been to see Luke be this f'n [idk] Grand Wizard??? Learning crazy things about the force and just kicking ass! It definitely would have worked but then again on the flip side someone would have been let down in that decision to take the movie. What really pissed me off though wasn't even the decision to

Spoiler

kill luke

[close]

But the awful subplots and dialogue. It just felt crammed and very badly thought out. Like....

Spoiler

face timing force??? Luke being so out of character, but like how Mark Hamill explained it, a Jedi would never do that! Especially after what luke has seen and felt and been through! Or a cell phone joke!?!? And weird romance....

[close]

But the nitpicking needs to stop because we are god damn Alien versus Predator people and Star Wars is a great sci fi flick, but we have greater issues at hand people. The Predator is just months away from trailers and release!!!!

[SM]

Spoiler

I don't a see an issue with 'Forcetime'.  It seems to be a logical extension of Luke calling to Leia on the Falcon or Vader calling to Luke from the Executor.  Poe's gag at the start was funny, but a little too contemporary.  Interesting to see if it dates in years to come.

[close]

[Highland]

Spoiler

I don't a see an issue with 'Forcetime'.  It seems to be a logical extension of Luke calling to Leia on the Falcon or Vader calling to Luke from the Executor.  Poe's gag at the start was funny, but a little too contemporary.  Interesting to see if it dates in years to come.

[close]

Again I think it's the execution. Leia feeling something was wrong seems more in line with the force we know rather than actually seeing Luke standing there in his boxer shorts.

Kind of brings into question why Jedi have to communicate via regular technology (prequels) or why the 3D hologram is even necessary ( Prequels, OT, New films). If you can literally contact someone through Force Time.

[PredBabe]

Spoiler

Not sure it's worth the effort if they want to have a simple conversation with someone. Isn't the 'Forcetime' strenuous for those who use it? Hence why Luke died afterwards.

[close]

[SM]

Spoiler

That would make sense - though Luke actually projected an image of himself across the galaxy.

[close]

[Highland]

Spoiler

Not sure it's worth the effort if they want to have a simple conversation with someone. Isn't the 'Forcetime' strenuous for those who use it? Hence why Luke died afterwards.

[close]

Spoiler

Force time and projection are two different things. Force time seems to be effortless as far as we see here.

[close]