This youtube video gives an in depth unbiased analysis of the themes of Aliens and some of the background behind them.
Rejoice in the conservative family values of the Reagan era. :)
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/kancolle/images/4/47/Obama_not_bad.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20161126204129)
The weird thing is that even as officials claim not to have discovered indigenous life forms in numerous worlds, the marines also referred to having to deal with "another bug hunt." Also, if the colonists were sending reports to the company even as more of their people were being killed or captured by the aliens, then all the officials had to do before sending the Sulaco was connect those reports with what Ripley said.
They said there was no indigenous life specifically on LV-426 - not numerous worlds.
There's no indication any reports were sent about the Aliens. Contact was lost beforehand.
Are there are other videos/essays like this of every Alien/Predator movie? I need to know more about their subtext/metaphor/symbolism/allegory/themes so i can make my AVP story
There's ones for Alien and Alien 3 that I saw.
This was a pretty interesting analysis and then they made Alien³. :laugh:
Shit I digged the Alien³ one as well. No matter how much time has passed somebody's always finding new ways to prove that this is one of the best trilogies ever made.
Quote from: SM on Jan 27, 2018, 05:56:04 AM
They said there was no indigenous life specifically on LV-426 - not numerous worlds.
From what I remember, one of those members in the meeting said that found no beacons nor ships nor the creature Ripley describes "in over 300 surveyed worlds". It's not clear if the member is simply referring to those three things or any type of beacon, ship, or creature or to any beacon, ship, or creature. If it's the former, then that explains the marine's remark about going on another "bug hunt." Otherwise, that's a plot hole.
Quote
There's no indication any reports were sent about the Aliens. Contact was lost beforehand.
Burke transmitted to them a message ordering the colonists to investigate the site. One returns with a facehugger, and later others are facehugged. They even manage to capture one alive and put it in the lab for study. And yet throughout all that time (including finding out how to capture the first alien, and more colonists captured) they failed to transmit any message, report, or call for help? That makes no sense unless all of their transmitters were damaged immediately after Newt's family returns from the site or only Burke had access to all transmissions from the colony. Both are for me highly unlikely.
QuoteFrom what I remember, one of those members in the meeting said that found no beacons nor ships nor the creature Ripley describes "in over 300 surveyed worlds". It's not clear if the member is simply referring to those three things or any type of beacon, ship, or creature or to any beacon, ship, or creature. If it's the former, then that explains the marine's remark about going on another "bug hunt." Otherwise, that's a plot hole.
The board member was specifically talking about the Xenomorph.
RIPLEY: Did IQ's just drop sharply while I was away? Ma'am, I already said it was not indigenous, it was a Derelict space craft. It was an Alien ship. It was not from there. Do you get it? We homed in on it's becon.
FEMALE BOARD MEMBER: And found something never recorded once, in over three hundred surveyed worlds. A
creature which gestates inside a living human host. These are your words. And has concentrated Acid for blood.
RIPLEY: That's right. Look, I can see where this is going. But, I'm telling you those things exist.
In the deleted scene 'The Last Supper' of Alien Covenant, Rosenthal says:
"I heard about these crazy bugs just outside this colonial oupost. Apparently they look like cockroaches the size of a giant poodle."
Quote from: ralfy on Jan 28, 2018, 04:04:15 AM
Quote from: SM on Jan 27, 2018, 05:56:04 AM
They said there was no indigenous life specifically on LV-426 - not numerous worlds.
From what I remember, one of those members in the meeting said that found no beacons nor ships nor the creature Ripley describes "in over 300 surveyed worlds". It's not clear if the member is simply referring to those three things or any type of beacon, ship, or creature or to any beacon, ship, or creature. If it's the former, then that explains the marine's remark about going on another "bug hunt." Otherwise, that's a plot hole.
Quote
There's no indication any reports were sent about the Aliens. Contact was lost beforehand.
Burke transmitted to them a message ordering the colonists to investigate the site. One returns with a facehugger, and later others are facehugged. They even manage to capture one alive and put it in the lab for study. And yet throughout all that time (including finding out how to capture the first alien, and more colonists captured) they failed to transmit any message, report, or call for help? That makes no sense unless all of their transmitters were damaged immediately after Newt's family returns from the site or only Burke had access to all transmissions from the colony. Both are for me highly unlikely.
You've misread/ misheard the enquiry scene as JungleHunter87 detailed.
As for the loss of contact - it was a loss of contact. If there was more to it, Ripley would've found it going through the colony logs.
I thoroughly enjoyed this guy's take on the Alien franchise. The Alien 3 analysis video isn't getting enough love as it should.
Quote from: JungleHunter87 on Jan 28, 2018, 04:37:11 AM
The board member was specifically talking about the Xenomorph.
RIPLEY: Did IQ's just drop sharply while I was away? Ma'am, I already said it was not indigenous, it was a Derelict space craft. It was an Alien ship. It was not from there. Do you get it? We homed in on it's becon.
FEMALE BOARD MEMBER: And found something never recorded once, in over three hundred surveyed worlds. A creature which gestates inside a living human host. These are your words. And has concentrated Acid for blood.
RIPLEY: That's right. Look, I can see where this is going. But, I'm telling you those things exist.
Which makes their disbelief odd, for if they found other indigenous lifeforms in those worlds, then what Ripley reported should be considered possible. Besides, if they had been investigating the issue for some time after they had received initial statements from Ripley, then they could have easily contacted the colony to check the site. If they did, then the coverup would have been considerable, with top officials from the authorities and maybe even those tasked with security involved.
Odder still is Burke's remark when Ripley discovers what he did: "I didn't know. So now if I went and made a major security situation out of it, everybody steps in, administration steps in, and there's no exclusive rights for anybody. Nobody wins. So I made a
decision, and it was wrong. It was a bad call, Ripley. It was a bad call."
So only Burke bothered to contact the colony?
Quote from: SM on Jan 28, 2018, 07:10:34 AM
You've misread/ misheard the enquiry scene as JungleHunter87 detailed.
As for the loss of contact - it was a loss of contact. If there was more to it, Ripley would've found it going through the colony logs.
Of course, not. What JH mentions contradicts your claim they were only talking about LV-426 and not other worlds.
As for loss of contact, it's possible that Ripley didn't have to mention the rest of them. All she needed to prove is that Burke sent them to their deaths.
Also, you didn't address my point: from the time the first colonist was infected to the time all of them were killed or captured by aliens, they didn't transmit anything to the company or even the authorities? Were all transmitters destroyed or disabled right after the first infected colonist was brought back?
His Alien videos are brilliant. I especially loved Alien 3's. I would say they are a must see because they give you a lot to think about and you end up appreciating certain things more.
QuoteWhich makes their disbelief odd, for if they found other indigenous lifeforms in those worlds, then what Ripley reported should be considered possible.
They're not saying it's impossible. They're saying the creature she's describing has never been encountered by mankind on any of the over 300 planets they've surveyed.
QuoteSo only Burke bothered to contact the colony?
Yes.
QuoteWhat JH mentions contradicts your claim they were only talking about LV-426 and not other worlds.
I don't believe I made such a claim. There's two aspects. One; the Alien has never been encountered before and two; LV-426 has no indigenous life.
QuoteAlso, you didn't address my point: from the time the first colonist was infected to the time all of them were killed or captured by aliens, they didn't transmit anything to the company or even the authorities? Were all transmitters destroyed or disabled right after the first infected colonist was brought back?
Based on what the film shows us - yes and yes. As I said above.
QuoteAs for the loss of contact - it was a loss of contact. If there was more to it, Ripley would've found it going through the colony logs.
It's really one of the only details I wish had been given at least a little more lip service somewhere in the film. The loss of contact. Something pretty big had to happen for that to go down.
"The hardwiring between [Operations] and [the uplink tower] is damaged."
It's fairly simple to fill in the gaps. Either it was the Aliens (accidental or on purpose), or someone pulled a Blair. Or they tried to contain the situation, and by the time they realised they couldn't - it was too late (and one of the aforementioned happened).
Quote from: PsyKore on Jan 29, 2018, 01:51:38 AM
His Alien videos are brilliant. I especially loved Alien 3's. I would say they are a must see because they give you a lot to think about and you end up appreciating certain things more.
I watched the Alien 3 one as well, it's good.
Never made the connection between First Blood Part 2 and Aliens before.
Quote from: SM on Jan 29, 2018, 02:48:29 AM
"The hardwiring between [Operations] and [the uplink tower] is damaged."
It's fairly simple to fill in the gaps. Either it was the Aliens (accidental or on purpose), or someone pulled a Blair. Or they tried to contain the situation, and by the time they realised they couldn't - it was too late (and one of the aforementioned happened).
Well, sure, I just mean from the standpoint of a timeline. You would think after the first chest burster there would be calls going Earth side right away.
Perhaps. Or perhaps they wanted to try and deal with the situation before making a report.
Quote from: SM on Jan 29, 2018, 02:11:28 AM
They're not saying it's impossible. They're saying the creature she's describing has never been encountered by mankind on any of the over 300 planets they've surveyed.
Which is why they did not believe Ripley. The point, of course, is that you claimed that they did not refer to other worlds. They did.
Quote
Yes.
Which is plot hole, because that would have meant that all of the company and government officials in the inquest were that stupid.
Quote
I don't believe I made such a claim. There's two aspects. One; the Alien has never been encountered before and two; LV-426 has no indigenous life.
You did. Earlier, you wrote: "They said there was no indigenous life specifically on LV-426 - not numerous worlds." Now, you argue: "They're saying the creature she's describing has never been encountered by mankind on any of the over 300 planets they've surveyed." So, they were also referring to "numerous worlds," contrary to your earlier claim.
Quote
Based on what the film shows us - yes and yes. As I said above.
There is nothing above where you said that. And you're still not addressing my points.
Quote
As for the loss of contact - it was a loss of contact. If there was more to it, Ripley would've found it going through the colony logs.
It's a loss of contact because it's a loss of contact? Circular reasoning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning).
Which she probably did but didn't have to say because all she needed to do was nail Burke to the wall.
Altogether, the idea that only Burke communicated with the colony, that the colony transmitters suddenly stopped working right after the colonists brought in the first infected person, and that no one bothered to contact the colony throughout the inquest (which meant that they would have found out about the loss of transmission even earlier) are not addressed satisfactorily in any of your posts.
Quote from: JungleHunter87 on Jan 28, 2018, 04:37:11 AM
The board member was specifically talking about the Xenomorph.
RIPLEY: Did IQ's just drop sharply while I was away? Ma'am, I already said it was not indigenous, it was a Derelict space craft. It was an Alien ship. It was not from there. Do you get it? We homed in on it's becon.
FEMALE BOARD MEMBER: And found something never recorded once, in over three hundred surveyed worlds. A creature which gestates inside a living human host. These are your words. And has concentrated Acid for blood.
RIPLEY: That's right. Look, I can see where this is going. But, I'm telling you those things exist.
Which is why I said earlier that this resolves the marine's belief that they will be going on on another "bug hunt": "Is this gonna be a stand-up
fight, sir, or another bug hunt?"
Does this mean that they encountered other creatures ("bugs") in other worlds? If so, and given the point that they would have easily contacted the colony during the initial part of the inquest, then why would they easily dismiss Ripley's claims? Also, it would have been uncharacteristic of them to do so as they were very thorough in their investigation: "The analysis team, which went over the lifeboat centimeter by centimeter, found no physical evidence of the creature you describe."
Hello, colony? Can you check this out for us? Colony? Hello? Hello? Oh, well, at least we checked the lifeboat, and that alone plus our surveys shows that Ripley must be making things up. LOL.
Finally, the point of mentioning this was to show that SM was wrong in claiming that they were only talking about LV-426.
Quote from: SM on Jan 29, 2018, 02:48:29 AM
"The hardwiring between [Operations] and [the uplink tower] is damaged."
It's fairly simple to fill in the gaps. Either it was the Aliens (accidental or on purpose), or someone pulled a Blair. Or they tried to contain the situation, and by the time they realised they couldn't - it was too late (and one of the aforementioned happened).
Damaged right after the first infected colonist arrived? That means the alien popped out right away, and then for some reason more aliens appeared, and they quickly killed or rounded up all of the colonists before the latter could send at least one message to tell the company what they they were under attack and needed help.
Sabotage makes more sense (with the saboteur having access to another set of wires leading to the uplink tower), but there's no proof of that in the script.
And damaging comms doesn't allow them to "contain the situation" in any way.
Quote from: SM on Jan 29, 2018, 10:36:36 PM
Perhaps. Or perhaps they wanted to try and deal with the situation before making a report.
What does "try and deal with the situation" mean, and how does that stop them from transmitting anything to the company?
Quote
You did. Earlier, you wrote: "They said there was no indigenous life specifically on LV-426 - not numerous worlds." Now, you argue: "They're saying the creature she's describing has never been encountered by mankind on any of the over 300 planets they've surveyed." So, they were also referring to "numerous worlds," contrary to your earlier claim.
My second statement clarifies the first. I'm not seeing a contradiction.
To place it in it's actual context, I was responding to your comment "The weird thing is that even as officials claim not to have discovered indigenous life forms in numerous worlds, the marines also referred to having to deal with "another bug hunt.""
As per the dialogue above, over 300 worlds have been surveyed and nothing like the Xenomorph has been encountered. Other lifeforms have, however, and sometimes marines need to eradicate them in 'bug hunts'. You've misunderstood the scene when you said "officials claim not to have discovered indigenous life forms in numerous worlds". They didn't say that.
QuoteIt's a loss of contact because it's a loss of contact?
Yes. It's not circular reasoning. It's simply all the information we have to work with.
QuoteAltogether, the idea that only Burke communicated with the colony, that the colony transmitters suddenly stopped working right after the colonists brought in the first infected person, and that no one bothered to contact the colony throughout the inquest (which meant that they would have found out about the loss of transmission even earlier) are not addressed satisfactorily in any of your posts.
Take it up with James Cameron. Again, it's all the information we have to work with. If it's not satisfactory, make up whatever story you like to fill in the gaps.
QuoteDoes this mean that they encountered other creatures ("bugs") in other worlds? If so, and given the point that they would have easily contacted the colony during the initial part of the inquest, then why would they easily dismiss Ripley's claims?
As Van Leuwen said - they didn't need to contact the colony. People had been living there peacefully for 20 years. Why bother when they think Ripley is a nut with PTSD who's been floating in space for nearly 60 years?
QuoteFinally, the point of mentioning this was to show that SM was wrong in claiming that they were only talking about LV-426
Nope. Sorry. :)
You won't find plot holes trying hard to misunderstand the film's dialogues.
In addition to that, you must consider that the humanity may have hundreds and hundreds colonized exo planets. We do not know.
You may also imagine that any colonized world must be 99.9% indipendent from earth, even if you think it's hard to accept from a present day perspective.
Even a military mission like that of the colonial marines must wait at least 17 days to get a rescue team assigned. They may have thought to be f**ked anyway and try to handle that at their best. We do not know.
Or maybe there was a "colony boss" that was a dick with a megalomaniac personality and forbid external communications. You know what? We still do not know.
We don't even know how fast communications between the lv426 colony and gateway are. We may assume they are faster than light speed because of response times after Ripley speech to the company... But again, we do not know.
The only plot hole here, if communications are faster than light is why they need to freeze people to do interplanetary travels if they use some kind of quantistic entangle communications...but still...we don't know! :D
We can't consider the informations you treated above as plot holes as they are not. :)
QuoteIn addition to that, you must consider that the humanity may have hundreds and hundreds colonized exo planets. We do not know.
Over 300 planets have been surveyed. Not known how many are colonised.
QuoteEven a military mission like that of the colonial marines must wait at least 17 days to get a rescue team assigned. They may have thought to be f**ked anyway and try to handle that at their best. We do not know.
Travel time to LV-426 from Gateway is 3 weeks.
Quote
We don't even know how fast communications between the lv426 colony and gateway are. We may assume they are faster than light speed because of response times after Ripley speech to the company... But again, we do not know.
To get a reply to a message from LV-426 is 2 weeks (1 week each way).
QuoteThe only plot hole here, if communications are faster than light is why they need to freeze people to do interplanetary travels if they use some kind of quantistic entangle communications...but still...we don't know!
No need to heat, food, water, power and provide constant life support for a crew that's asleep.
Quote from: SM on Jan 30, 2018, 06:55:37 AM
Quote
You did. Earlier, you wrote: "They said there was no indigenous life specifically on LV-426 - not numerous worlds." Now, you argue: "They're saying the creature she's describing has never been encountered by mankind on any of the over 300 planets they've surveyed." So, they were also referring to "numerous worlds," contrary to your earlier claim.
My second statement clarifies the first. I'm not seeing a contradiction.
The contradiction is very clear. In your first statement, you write that "they said that there was no indigenous life SPECIFICALLY (emphasis mine) on LV-426 - not numerous worlds." In short, they were not referring to other worlds. In your second statement, you write, "They're saying the creature she's describing has never been encountered by mankind on any of the over 300 planets they've surveyed." In short, they were not specifically referring to LV-426 but to "numerous worlds," or more accurately "over 300 planets."
Quote
To place it in it's actual context, I was responding to your comment "The weird thing is that even as officials claim not to have discovered indigenous life forms in numerous worlds, the marines also referred to having to deal with "another bug hunt.""
As per the dialogue above, over 300 worlds have been surveyed and nothing like the Xenomorph has been encountered. Other lifeforms have, however, and sometimes marines need to eradicate them in 'bug hunts'. You've misunderstood the scene when you said "officials claim not to have discovered indigenous life forms in numerous worlds". They didn't say that.
Yes, but that doesn't resolve your contradiction. As pointed out earlier, you wrote, "They said there was no indigenous life specifically on LV-426 - not numerous worlds." But it turns out that what they really pointed out is that "300 worlds have been surveyed and nothing like the Xenomorph has been encountered." So, they were not referring specifically to LV-426.
Also, I mentioned in a subsequent post that they did refer to the beacon, the ship, and the creature not found elsewhere, but give the presence of other lifeforms that necessitated "bug hunts" (and probably involving more than just harsh language), then that gives more credence to Ripley's claim. And all they needed to do (not just Burke but the company and government officials who were all part of the inquest) was to contact the colony (which they should have done initially) and wait for findings.
Quote
Yes. It's not circular reasoning. It's simply all the information we have to work with.
It's circular reasoning, and your second point ("It's simply all the information we have to work with") is not connected to it.
Quote
Take it up with James Cameron. Again, it's all the information we have to work with. If it's not satisfactory, make up whatever story you like to fill in the gaps.
And yet that's what you tried to do in another message, where you even argued that, "It's fairly simple to fill in the gaps."
Quote
As Van Leuwen said - they didn't need to contact the colony. People had been living there peacefully for 20 years. Why bother when they think Ripley is a nut with PTSD who's been floating in space for nearly 60 years?
That makes absolutely no sense at all, unless that's what they wanted Ripley to believe. In short, they were covering up.
Quote
Nope. Sorry. :)
Nope, it's clear that you are wrong.
Quote from: Axe on Jan 31, 2018, 12:22:46 AM
You won't find plot holes trying hard to misunderstand the film's dialogues.
In addition to that, you must consider that the humanity may have hundreds and hundreds colonized exo planets. We do not know.
You may also imagine that any colonized world must be 99.9% indipendent from earth, even if you think it's hard to accept from a present day perspective.
Even a military mission like that of the colonial marines must wait at least 17 days to get a rescue team assigned. They may have thought to be f**ked anyway and try to handle that at their best. We do not know.
Or maybe there was a "colony boss" that was a dick with a megalomaniac personality and forbid external communications. You know what? We still do not know.
We don't even know how fast communications between the lv426 colony and gateway are. We may assume they are faster than light speed because of response times after Ripley speech to the company... But again, we do not know.
The only plot hole here, if communications are faster than light is why they need to freeze people to do interplanetary travels if they use some kind of quantistic entangle communications...but still...we don't know! :D
We can't consider the informations you treated above as plot holes as they are not. :)
Your first message, and it had to be this. LOL.
QuoteAlso, I mentioned in a subsequent post that they did refer to the beacon, the ship, and the creature not found elsewhere, but give the presence of other lifeforms that necessitated "bug hunts"
No, not the beacon and ship. Only the creature. Hence the " And found something never recorded once, in over three hundred surveyed worlds. A
creature which gestates inside a living human host. These are your words. And has concentrated Acid for blood ".
Only Ripley speaks of the beacon and ship. No board member's are seen mentioning those two things.
QuoteYes, but that doesn't resolve your contradiction. As pointed out earlier, you wrote, "They said there was no indigenous life specifically on LV-426 - not numerous worlds." But it turns out that what they really pointed out is that "300 worlds have been surveyed and nothing like the Xenomorph has been encountered." So, they were not referring specifically to LV-426.
These are two separate parts of the scene. One part refers to any encounters with the Xenomorph at all on any world. The other refers to LV-426 having any indigenous life. Again I was responding to your remark that "officials claim not to have discovered indigenous life forms in numerous worlds".
QuoteAlso, I mentioned in a subsequent post that they did refer to the beacon, the ship, and the creature not found elsewhere, but give the presence of other lifeforms that necessitated "bug hunts" (and probably involving more than just harsh language), then that gives more credence to Ripley's claim.
Why should it? They read out parts of Ripley's deposition quite incredulously (as detailed by JungleHunter87). They clearly don't believe her.
QuoteIt's circular reasoning, and your second point ("It's simply all the information we have to work with") is not connected to it.
Yes it is. I'm pretty sure I know what I mean with my own posts.
QuoteAnd yet that's what you tried to do in another message, where you even argued that, "It's fairly simple to fill in the gaps."
Indeed. What's your point here?
Quote
That makes absolutely no sense at all, unless that's what they wanted Ripley to believe. In short, they were covering up.
Who was covering up? Once again, it's obvious no one in the enquiry believes her.
QuoteNope, it's clear that you are wrong.
You keep saying this, but have yet to detail how. I'll I've seen is you misinterpreting the scene. Perhaps go and have another watch?
He's either trolling or just really bad with reading comprehension. You're a saint for trying though SM.
You shoulda seen what I typed before I revised it and hit 'Post'.
;D
Quote from: SM on Jan 31, 2018, 12:38:38 AM
Over 300 planets have been surveyed. Not known how many are colonised.
Yes, exactly, we don't know.
Quote from: SM on Jan 31, 2018, 12:38:38 AM
Travel time to LV-426 from Gateway is 3 weeks.
Yup, this is why I think the "we must handle this by ourselves" logic makes even more sense.
Quote from: SM on Jan 31, 2018, 12:38:38 AM
To get a reply to a message from LV-426 is 2 weeks (1 week each way).
I did not catch that, but over the years you did prove indeed to know your shiet :D
Quote from: SM on Jan 31, 2018, 12:38:38 AM
No need to heat, food, water, power and provide constant life support for a crew that's asleep.
This is very plausible. Btw sending comms in 1 week and 3 weeks of travels makes me think that they are not traveling @ light speed, not even near.
Do you remember in covenant how far is the planet and how much time they have to travel? Just curious to put infos together
Quote from: ralfy on Jan 31, 2018, 01:15:04 AM
Your first message, and it had to be this. LOL.
Your first reply to me, and it had to be this. How bully.
QuoteThis is very plausible. Btw sending comms in 1 week and 3 weeks of travels makes me think that they are not traveling @ light speed, not even near.
Do you remember in covenant how far is the planet and how much time they have to travel? Just curious to put infos together
Yep. All the ships in the Alien flicks are much faster than light. The Sulaco is the fastest.
Info in regards to Covenant is speculatory, as we don't know exactly where Planet 4 or Origae 6 are. I calculated a speed of 0.08 light years per day. Sulaco is 1.8 ly/day.
Quote from: SM on Jan 31, 2018, 08:36:36 PM
Yep. All the ships in the Alien flicks are much faster than light. The Sulaco is the fastest.
Info in regards to Covenant is speculatory, as we don't know exactly where Planet 4 or Origae 6 are. I calculated a speed of 0.08 light years per day. Sulaco is 1.8 ly/day.
But CMTM.
SM > CMTM
I used to have that book, it has an alien on the cover but most of the book talks about CM. It is called Colonial Marines Technical Manual but it is also called ALIENS: Colonial Marines Technical Manual. Most of the stuff in it is not in the movies, just fan fiction stuff. There is a little bit about the aliens at the end of book, and that's it. Very disappointed, not worth the price IMO.
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/avp/images/7/78/CMTM_original.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150722080800)
It's officially licensed; not fan fiction.
'Officially licensed' or not, it doesn't make any difference. Unless they use it down the track, may as well be fan fiction. It's not in any other media. So why should anyone care whether it's 'officially licensed' or not?
(I'm not talking about the stuff that's already in the film, btw)
Information created for the CMTM has been used in other licensed material that followed.
I thought that the CMTM was brilliant. Though I knew ahead that it wasn't focusing on the aliens.
Quote from: ralfy on Jan 29, 2018, 01:12:15 AM
Which makes their disbelief odd, for if they found other indigenous lifeforms in those worlds, then what Ripley reported should be considered possible. Besides, if they had been investigating the issue for some time after they had received initial statements from Ripley, then they could have easily contacted the colony to check the site. If they did, then the coverup would have been considerable, with top officials from the authorities and maybe even those tasked with security involved.
Odder still is Burke's remark when Ripley discovers what he did: "I didn't know. So now if I went and made a major security situation out of it, everybody steps in, administration steps in, and there's no exclusive rights for anybody. Nobody wins. So I made a
decision, and it was wrong. It was a bad call, Ripley. It was a bad call."
They have never encountered anything like an acid-bleeding biomechanical fabrication compiler super-cancer that feeds on minds. Is that so difficult to believe?
QuoteAlso, you didn't address my point: from the time the first colonist was infected to the time all of them were killed or captured by aliens, they didn't transmit anything to the company or even the authorities?
Nope, they couldn't because:
Quoteall transmitters destroyed or disabled right after the first infected colonist was brought back
by Burke and his associates in Weyland-Yutani and the USCM command structure.
They did?
I dunno, could have just been shitty comm links though.
So some WY 'associates' at Hadley condemned themselves to death?
No, they would have been at headquarters obviously. ::)
How did they disable the colony transmitters from HQ?
Bug hunt could just be referring to a bug hunt on Earth as well couldn't it? Nobody say's it has to be a new life form from another planet.
LV-426 was Earth all along!!
David just dreamt it. She's alive.
Quote from: SM on Feb 11, 2018, 07:30:48 PM
How did they disable the colony transmitters from HQ?
You can do all sorts of bad stuff remotely. I can disable the NIC of the PC I'm currently remoting to. Wont do me much good but it'll mean I can't talk to it.
An excellent way to f**k over 158 colonists on a rock at the ass end of space.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 12, 2018, 09:04:42 AM
Quote from: SM on Feb 11, 2018, 07:30:48 PM
How did they disable the colony transmitters from HQ?
You can do all sorts of bad stuff remotely. I can disable the NIC of the PC I'm currently remoting to. Wont do me much good but it'll mean I can't talk to it.
Even if the hardwiring is damaged so the uplink dish can't be aligned?
Would depend entirely on the network infrastructure. The hardwiring was just between the dish and the colony IIRC, not disabling the dish's functionality otherwise Bishop wouldn't have been able to re-align it directly.
For clarities sake, I don't subscribe to this notion. It's just not outside the realms of possibility that they could disable these functions remotely.
Quote from: JungleHunter87 on Jan 31, 2018, 01:29:36 AM
No, not the beacon and ship. Only the creature. Hence the " And found something never recorded once, in over three hundred surveyed worlds. A creature which gestates inside a living human host. These are your words. And has concentrated Acid for blood ".
Only Ripley speaks of the beacon and ship. No board member's are seen mentioning those two things.
Does that mean that they found beacons and derelict ships elsewhere? If so, then they would have have dismissed her description of the creature, right?
Quote from: SM on Jan 31, 2018, 02:08:09 AM
These are two separate parts of the scene. One part refers to any encounters with the Xenomorph at all on any world. The other refers to LV-426 having any indigenous life. Again I was responding to your remark that "officials claim not to have discovered indigenous life forms in numerous worlds".
They were not referring to indigenous life forms.
Quote
Why should it? They read out parts of Ripley's deposition quite incredulously (as detailed by JungleHunter87). They clearly don't believe her.
Then what were involved in those "bug hunts"? Large insects from earth?
QuoteIt's circular reasoning, and your second point ("It's simply all the information we have to work with") is not connected to it.
Quote
Yes it is. I'm pretty sure I know what I mean with my own posts.
No, it's not. And I showed that to you very clearly.
Quote
Indeed. What's your point here?
You are failing completely in defending yourself. I will have to ignore you after this for wasting my time.
Quote
Who was covering up? Once again, it's obvious no one in the enquiry believes her.
That was already explained to you!
Quote
You keep saying this, but have yet to detail how. I'll I've seen is you misinterpreting the scene. Perhaps go and have another watch?
It's the other way round: you misinterpreted the scene. Read the first point I raised above. You mistakenly thought that the ECA Rep was referring only to indigenous life forms. That's not the case.
And here's the catch. The rep was arguing that they never found a creature like the one described by Ripley. However, she didn't say that they didn't find ANY life form on those planets. In which case, it would be absurd of them to dismiss Ripley's creature easily, especially given the point that they could have easily asked the colony that was already in place to search the site that Ripley mentioned.
And there's your cover-up.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jan 31, 2018, 03:10:15 AM
He's either trolling or just really bad with reading comprehension. You're a saint for trying though SM.
Consider the scene again.
They state that they went through shuttle carefully and found no trace of the creature. Ripley says she blew it out of the airlock.
One then asks the other if they found any such organism on LV-426, and the response was that they found no indigenous life on the rock. That means Ripley was imagining everything or company officials had found the ship and/or contents but did not want government officials to know. (Take note that subsequent scenes show that colonists even managed to capture some facehuggers and even store one or more alive.)
Ripley argues that the creature was not indigenous given the derelict ship and the beacon. Notice at that point how the committee ignores that point as one states that in over 300 known worlds they did not find any creature that resembles the creature described. They didn't state, however, that they did not find any life forms on those worlds. Does that explain one marine that asks later whether their mission is just another "bug-hunt"?
So, we have a company that does not acknowledge the existence of such a creature but does not say anything about any other lifeforms they found elsewhere, says nothing about the beacon and derelict ship, has a colony that does not communicate with them later but for some reason did not report that they had captured and stored several facehuggers in their lab. Or did they communicate that to the company before they were overwhelmed by the creatures?
With that, how am I trolling or lack reading comprehension?
So you come back and respond to a thread six months later, and you're going to 'ignore me after this for wasting your time'. :laugh:
I'm struggling to discern your point.
Mankind has encountered extra terrestrial lifeforms. They had not encountered any indigenous life on LV-426. They have not encountered the capital A Alien that Ripley describes.
Quote from: D. Compton Ambrose on Feb 10, 2018, 02:12:39 AM
They have never encountered anything like an acid-bleeding biomechanical fabrication compiler super-cancer that feeds on minds. Is that so difficult to believe?
Hence, "bug-hunts".
Quote
Nope, they couldn't because:
Quoteall transmitters destroyed or disabled right after the first infected colonist was brought back
by Burke and his associates in Weyland-Yutani and the USCM command structure.
Or the company knew and kept a tight lid on it, then ordered Burke to form a team to recover what the colonists managed to obtain in exchange for a percentage. He even tries to bribe Ripley and tells her that since she discovered the species she gets some "serious money" as well.
However it goes, it's a cover-up, right?
Quote from: Highland on Feb 12, 2018, 02:40:26 AM
Bug hunt could just be referring to a bug hunt on Earth as well couldn't it? Nobody say's it has to be a new life form from another planet.
I assume that colonial marines operate with colonies that are located outside Earth.
Quote from: SM on Jul 10, 2018, 11:34:31 AM
So you come back and respond to a thread six months later,
"It's just natural side effects of such an unusually long hypersleep..." ???
Well, if it took him six months to compose a reply to SM then I can understand why he'd be pissed at SM for wasting so much of his time.
And Hudson moaned over 17 days...
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 12, 2018, 09:04:42 AM
Quote from: SM on Feb 11, 2018, 07:30:48 PM
How did they disable the colony transmitters from HQ?
You can do all sorts of bad stuff remotely. I can disable the NIC of the PC I'm currently remoting to. Wont do me much good but it'll mean I can't talk to it.
Of course, the NIC can also be re-enabled by anyone with physical access to the PC as well. :P
Quote from: FenGiddel on Jul 10, 2018, 03:15:23 PM
Quote from: SM on Jul 10, 2018, 11:34:31 AM
So you come back and respond to a thread six months later,
"It's just natural side effects of such an unusually long hypersleep..." ???
:laugh:
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 10, 2018, 08:03:46 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 12, 2018, 09:04:42 AM
Quote from: SM on Feb 11, 2018, 07:30:48 PM
How did they disable the colony transmitters from HQ?
You can do all sorts of bad stuff remotely. I can disable the NIC of the PC I'm currently remoting to. Wont do me much good but it'll mean I can't talk to it.
Of course, the NIC can also be re-enabled by anyone with physical access to the PC as well. :P
I find that level of competence unusual...
Not bad for a human...
Some additional points: the marines found facehugger specimens in the colony lab, which meant there was a period of time between the discovery of the derelict and the last transmission colonists sent to the company. In addition, the colony is a joint project of the company and the government. Also, the expedition later finds out that it was Burke that sent colonists to find the ship.
That implies the ff.
1. It can be assumed that both company and gov't (because the colony is a joint project of the company and Colonial Administration) immediately sent the colonists to find the ship, or at least let Burke handle the matter. Either way, both knew what Burke was doing, and both were in on any revenues that could be made on the discovery, with Burke getting his cut.
2. Given the gestation period of the alien and the number of facehuggers (dead and alive) found in the colony lab, it may be inferred that there was enough time for the colony manager to transmit their findings to Burke and the suits from the time the first "infection" took place, thus validating Ripley's claims. From there, they would not have waited for the colony to stop transmitting and send an expedition right away.
3. Given Ripley's story and whatever reports sent by the colony lab and manager, the expedition would have been been better prepared, especiallly given the potential revenues to be gained from such a discovery. They would also have come up with a much larger contingent, consisting of two teams of marines--one to secure the colony and the other to secure the ship, scientists to capture and secure all sorts of specimens, medical personnel (not just one medic) for colonists (good for around 70 families, or up to 400 people), and probably at least two ships apart, with periodic reports and updates sent to the suits.
Thus, everything hinges on the fact that facehugger specimens were found in the lab, which implies that there was enough time between discovery of the ship and the colony overwhelmed for the latter to transmit lots of information about the creatures.
Which means communications went down very early, possibly entirely unrelated to the Aliens, as no information was sent.
Or they communicated with a local party that never had communication with whoever organised the mission.
Well sure, we can pull whatever we want out of thin air.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Oct 21, 2022, 09:34:05 PMOr they communicated with a local party that never had communication with whoever organised the mission.
Are you thinking...
Spoiler
...the Cold Forge?
If comms had gone down early (with no reason given), then that would have alarmed the company and government, and that would have taken place early on during the hearings. Also, one would think that such a large project would have backup systems, if not means to restore communications.
Meanwhile, during all that time the colonists were removing dead specimens of facehuggers and capturing live ones, and putting them in the lab for analysis. At least that's what the marines discovered, and for the time involved, we can recall what happened during the first movie.
When the marines arrived, they saw barricades, food uneaten on tables in some rooms, and Newt, which Ripley estimated stayed alive for longer than 17 days and according to Dietrich experienced "borderline malnutrition".
Again, all of these points come from the movie and don't include anything from the EU.
The implication, then, is that weeks may have been involved from the time Burke sent the colonists to the ship (did he know the location, or did many groups fan out, with one accidentally finding the ship, something that they were not able to do since the colony was set up twenty years earlier?) to the time that only Newt remained.
Did the company try to contact them only twice: when they sent them to (or ordered them to find?) the ship, and then tried to contact them weeks later, asking for an update?
Quote from: SiL on Oct 21, 2022, 11:06:35 PMWell sure, we can pull whatever we want out of thin air.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 22, 2022, 12:10:45 AMQuote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Oct 21, 2022, 09:34:05 PMOr they communicated with a local party that never had communication with whoever organised the mission.
Are you thinking...
Spoiler
...the Cold Forge?
Well, either that, or it is just another thing to add to the list of a comedy of errors already pervasive in Aliens' plot structure.
Because when things start to go sideways you call for help even if futile, and I do not believe in the conspiracy Carter Burke version of that character some people have made up in their heads, so that leaves the possibility something happened he did not know of or it is just a massive hilarious coincidence.
Quote from: ralfy on Oct 22, 2022, 03:16:42 AMIf comms had gone down early (with no reason given), then that would have alarmed the company and government, and that would have taken place early on during the hearings. Also, one would think that such a large project would have backup systems, if not means to restore communications.
The hearings are before Burke send the colonists out. They lose communications, then send the team out.
QuoteThe implication, then, is that weeks may have been involved from the time Burke sent the colonists to the ship (did he know the location, or did many groups fan out, with one accidentally finding the ship, something that they were not able to do since the colony was set up twenty years earlier?) to the time that only Newt remained.
It took the marines 3 weeks to get to LV 426. They likely left when the outbreak was in its early stages and arrived at the tail end.
Communications are lost early on, either incidental to the Aliens or as a result of their first contact with adults. Cameron gives the reason they don't immediately hail anyone in two pieces of dialogue; Simpson and lydecker (it takes two weeks and the answer is always don't ask ), and the Jordan's (let's wait to see what to call it in as).
By the time they thought to call they couldn't, wherever and why that was.
I do wonder how they could tell communications went down, I get not receiving a reply, but who asked in the first place exactly?
They clearly get communications and respond to them, they just don't question directives sent from head office because they get brushed off. Presumably some other banal, routine communication got missed.
Personally I like the idea that a perfect storm of shit circumstances happened, but then I'm fascinated by real life stories like that.
Although I get that, and definitely agree to a degree, but it is the sheer amount that pushes it into the unbelievable to me.
A colony even existing on that particular moon being one in of itself in my opinion. Then no clear communication of exactly what happened.
The squad leader being a first timer.
Leaving not a single individual onboard the ship, just people in the dropship and the APC. Then the dropship not only being destroyed but crashing into the APC.
All of it is a bit much for me to believe without turning my brain off. So to some degree a conspiracy theory to make it a bit more believable I can understand the temptation of.
Spoiler
Not Carter Burke lying about Amanda Ripley though lol lmao
I'm only talking about the setup. Nobody on the ship is just for drama.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 22, 2022, 10:59:41 AMQuote from: ralfy on Oct 22, 2022, 03:16:42 AMIf comms had gone down early (with no reason given), then that would have alarmed the company and government, and that would have taken place early on during the hearings. Also, one would think that such a large project would have backup systems, if not means to restore communications.
The hearings are before Burke send the colonists out. They lose communications, then send the team out.
QuoteThe implication, then, is that weeks may have been involved from the time Burke sent the colonists to the ship (did he know the location, or did many groups fan out, with one accidentally finding the ship, something that they were not able to do since the colony was set up twenty years earlier?) to the time that only Newt remained.
It took the marines 3 weeks to get to LV 426. They likely left when the outbreak was in its early stages and arrived at the tail end.
Communications are lost early on, either incidental to the Aliens or as a result of their first contact with adults. Cameron gives the reason they don't immediately hail anyone in two pieces of dialogue; Simpson and lydecker (it takes two weeks and the answer is always don't ask ), and the Jordan's (let's wait to see what to call it in as).
By the time they thought to call they couldn't, wherever and why that was.
The catch is that Ripley provided a deposition, which means the company and government were informed about what happened to Ripley even before the hearings began. That involves a lot of time, more than enough for the suits to contact the colony after receiving the initial report from Ripley.
How did the company know the location of the ship, i.e., if the company logs indicate that they sent the colonists to the ship? Was it in the deposition?
BTW, I'm only looking at the movie and not the deleted scenes. If we include the deleted scenes, it gets even worse because it turns out that colonists were told about the location. Also, keep in mind that even though it takes two weeks for signals to reach the company, they would have sent the report right away ("don't ask" refers to not asking why they're ordered to go to the grid reference, but I'm sure the company would have been eager for even brief reports, e.g., "we found the ship" and "one of the wildcatters has something attached to his face" and "we managed to capture several live and dead facehuggers") which could have been sent immediately.
As for the Jordans waiting to see what to call in, that'd be referring to finding the ship. Given the fact that they had to return with a facehugger strapped to the dad's head pretty much invalidates keeping their find a secret.
Given all that, what happened is that for some weird reason the colony comms go down right after the Jordens arrive with a facehugger, and for some reason the company never hear from them after that and aren't bothered by the silence. (Given the urgency that the company has in acquiring such creatures and ships, and even to the point that they find their own personnel expendable in doing so, one would think that they would order the manager to give daily or immediate reports, even brief ones like the ones given above. And the two-week transmission delay refers to receiving signals, not the frequency of reports transmitted.)
That's why the expendition arrives not only late but unprepared, i.e., with everyone still assuming that Ripley's report is a hoax.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Oct 22, 2022, 12:14:06 PMAlthough I get that, and definitely agree to a degree, but it is the sheer amount that pushes it into the unbelievable to me.
A colony even existing on that particular moon being one in of itself in my opinion. Then no clear communication of exactly what happened.
The squad leader being a first timer.
Leaving not a single individual onboard the ship, just people in the dropship and the APC. Then the dropship not only being destroyed but crashing into the APC.
All of it is a bit much for me to believe without turning my brain off. So to some degree a conspiracy theory to make it a bit more believable I can understand the temptation of.
Spoiler
Not Carter Burke lying about Amanda Ripley though lol lmao
The only conspiracy theory that'll work with this is that the company knew the grid reference of the ship but ordered Burke to take care of everything. For some absurd reason, colony comms fell apart even before aliens appeared. Burke, who likely is the only one who believes Ripley, then informed the company that he lost contact with the colony and must go there with an armed expedition to find out what happened. Meanwhile, the company doesn't bother to ask why Burke wants an armed expedition.
The colonists being given the coordinates is in the theatrical cut. Ripley confronts Burke about it.
Burke is acting alone. Nobody takes Ripley seriously, so he takes a chance sending them out to have a look. If it works, he'll get the claim.
The DC shows us the colonists leave after the inquest. Even without the DC it's clear why this would be the case - if Burke sends them first, it validates Ripley's story and all of the government bodies step in to investigate. He says as much.
He's trying to keep it low key until he can claim the find. The problem is the colonists find exactly what Ripley said they would and they all die. As Ripley points out - and Burke takes seriously - he's responsible for their deaths.
Those together explain why he never admits to sending the colonists out before they arrive. The marines aren't sent by WY, they're sent by the government. He jumps on as corporate liaison but has no real authority.
Everyone is unprepared because Burke made a "bad call" and basically spends the movie trying to profit from it while avoiding responsibility for the loss of the colony. Nobody ever took Ripley seriously but him so everyone thinks it's a routine blackout situation. She's there "just in case" because it happened to be where she said there was a space alien, but nobody really thinks it's the case.
Burke being a selfish asshole explains what we see in the film just fine.
I sometimes wonder how Burke might have confirmed the derelict's presence without endangering the colonists and without turning it into a "major security situation."
It may have been enough to instruct them to report back at first sight of anything unusual and to NOT investigate further unless they received explicit instructions to do so from corporate HQ (under penalty of total forfeiture of shares).
I imagine that's exactly what he was expecting; someone would go out, find a giant alien construction, and call back saying "Hey, we found a giant alien construction." If Russ Jordan hadn't gone inside to take a look it's entirely possible everything could've been avoided and Burke could've retired early very well off.
I'd be surprised if Burke gave them even minimal instructions against investigating. If he had, Ripley might have accepted that as a "warning" instead of threatening to crucify him.
Warning them at all would turn it into a security issue. He probably just said "go look". The DC seems to suggest as much.
Really everything is the ECA's fault. Burke withheld information to try to make a claim. If the ECA had requested someone check out the reference as part of their investigation, they could've given specific instructions and warnings and made it a huge security issue because they weren't trying to make themselves rich, they were investigating the loss of a spaceship and its crew.
Their laziness cost lives, dammit.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 23, 2022, 03:09:14 AMThe colonists being given the coordinates is in the theatrical cut. Ripley confronts Burke about it.
Burke is acting alone. Nobody takes Ripley seriously, so he takes a chance sending them out to have a look. If it works, he'll get the claim.
The DC shows us the colonists leave after the inquest. Even without the DC it's clear why this would be the case - if Burke sends them first, it validates Ripley's story and all of the government bodies step in to investigate. He says as much.
He's trying to keep it low key until he can claim the find. The problem is the colonists find exactly what Ripley said they would and they all die. As Ripley points out - and Burke takes seriously - he's responsible for their deaths.
Those together explain why he never admits to sending the colonists out before they arrive. The marines aren't sent by WY, they're sent by the government. He jumps on as corporate liaison but has no real authority.
Everyone is unprepared because Burke made a "bad call" and basically spends the movie trying to profit from it while avoiding responsibility for the loss of the colony. Nobody ever took Ripley seriously but him so everyone thinks it's a routine blackout situation. She's there "just in case" because it happened to be where she said there was a space alien, but nobody really thinks it's the case.
Burke being a selfish asshole explains what we see in the film just fine.
Where did Burke get the coordinates? If it came from Ripley's deposition, then the company and even the gov't would have known about it because that would have been used in the board of inquiry.
For Burke to act alone, then would mean that the company and gov't didn't bother to just contact the colony and verify the location of the ship. That sounds absurd, especially given the point that large amounts of money are at stake in that colony (e.g., mineral rights) and that both are more than interested in profiting from such finds and employing bioweapons, not to mention what the company was willing to do, i.e., sacrifice personnel and assets, to acquire such finds, as shown in the first movie.
Apparently, the inquest didn't end because they decide to send a military expedition, which implies that what happened might be more than just a "blackout situation."
Also, I think what Burke would have gotten was not claim of the discovery but a percentage of profits from the find, which ties up with what happened to the space truckers in the first movie, the wildcatters who found the ship, etc. Everyone involved gets a cut.
About Burke not admitting that he sent the colonists to the ship, here's what I think happened: only Burke and a small group of company and government officials are involved because bioweapons research appears to be a shady business. That's why Burke had to figure out how to bring back specimens past ICC quarantine, and why even the marines were barely briefed concerning their mission.
This might also explain why they argued that they didn't believe Ripley even though she had already given them the location of the ship, although it's absurd that Ripley didn't raise that point after they suspended her license.
This might also explain why only one wildcat group was sent, and only the colony manager would be informed of any findings: the discovery had to be limited to only a small number of people, which included Ripley.
Why, then, was Ripley asked to join the expedition? Because they wanted to make sure that the mission would be successful because she was the one most informed about the creatures? The catch is that they couldn't give more details to the marines, who also didn't take the issue seriously because they also thought that it was merely the equivalent of a "blackout situation," that is, just a "bug hunt." In addition, what else would have Ripley shared? It seems that she said everything that she wanted to say during the inquiry and in her deposition, so she was actually not needed; even disks were already prepared for the marines to study.
Why didn't they send a better-prepared team? My guess is that the comms actually didn't go down, and that the few company (including Burke) and gov't officials that were privy to colony reports knew what was happening in colony. Following Ripley's story and the Jordens' mistake in entering the ship, they knew that the colony was doomed. Thus, they sent the military not on a rescue mission but on one to recover alien artifacts; hence, an armed contingent with one synth scientist and only one company rep, and all of them couldn't be informed about the real reason why they were sent.
But didn't Ripley know the location of the derelict ship? She prepared disks for the marines, and even if Burke had scrubbed that part from the reports should could have told them about the existence of the ship and its coordinates verbally.
To avoid that complication, and given the fact that everything Ripley could tell them is already in the deposition, then they could have just avoided all of that completely and send a better-prepared expedition, consisting of soldiers and mercs involved in bioweapons research plus scientists who can carefully capture and store artifacts and specimens. Then, as part of clandestine operations, go past ICC quarantine easily.
And make sure to give Burke his cut and promote him to become one of the boys.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 23, 2022, 03:55:22 AMI imagine that's exactly what he was expecting; someone would go out, find a giant alien construction, and call back saying "Hey, we found a giant alien construction." If Russ Jordan hadn't gone inside to take a look it's entirely possible everything could've been avoided and Burke could've retired early very well off.
I'm guessing that everyone in the board of inquiry was as smart as Burke, i.e., they received the grid reference from Ripley's deposition and would have contacted the colony admin to check it out. The catch is that they didn't want too many people to know even about the inquiry because that would make it difficult for them to acquire alien artifacts and specimens for gain of function research.
At the same time, they would have been smart enough to consider the rest of Ripley's story, as stated in the deposition: they made the mistake of entering the ship and getting infected. That means they could have ordered to colony admin to select the team carefully and not to enter the ship. For some reason, they didn't say that, so a mom-and-pop wildcat pair was sent.
A more logical move would be to send a trained team to investigate. That sounds impractical, but we have to figure out where Ripley got the grid reference. By speculating on that, we can see why Ripley's story becomes believable.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 23, 2022, 04:37:56 AMI'd be surprised if Burke gave them even minimal instructions against investigating. If he had, Ripley might have accepted that as a "warning" instead of threatening to crucify him.
That also puts the whole investigation of Ripley to question, as the grid reference came from her.
That means this might have been an internal investigation as it involves company personnel and property, which means for members of the board the company sent its own man, Burke, and only government officials who would be privy to questionable research on alien artifacts and specimens. Otherwise, more people would know about Ripley's report.
In front of Ripley, they would make it appear that they didn't believe her even though they already got everything they needed from her deposition, including the location of the ship. And without her knowing, work with the colony to confirm her claims.
Finally, where did Ripley get the grid reference? Did she memorize it, or is it part of some logs recorded by the Nostromo computer?
The flight recorder has the data of the Nostromo landing on the planet. This is stated.
Van Leuwen dismisses the idea of even checking out the grid reference because the colonists haven't complained of anything so he doesn't think Ripley is credible. This is stated.
Burke takes the opportunity to check out the reference seeing nobody else is. He doesn't warn the colonists because it would turn it into a security situation and he'd lose his cut. This is stated.
The marines think checking out a colony because of a communications blackout is normal, if boring. This is stated.
If the investigative team had ordered Hadley's Hope to send a prepared team to the derelict to verify Ripley's claims instead of dismissing her, everything could've been avoided. But they didn't, allowing Burke to set his plan in motion, leading to a series of catastrophes.
By the time of the movie everyone involved in the original Special Order would likely be retired, dead, or both. We know the Company had no interest in investigating Ripley's claims at that time because the film shows they don't. Burke acting alone is proof of that.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 24, 2022, 03:29:52 AMThe flight recorder has the data of the Nostromo landing on the planet. This is stated.
Van Leuwen dismisses the idea of even checking out the grid reference because the colonists haven't complained of anything so he doesn't think Ripley is credible. This is stated.
Burke takes the opportunity to check out the reference seeing nobody else is. He doesn't warn the colonists because it would turn it into a security situation and he'd lose his cut. This is stated.
The marines think checking out a colony because of a communications blackout is normal, if boring. This is stated.
If the investigative team had ordered Hadley's Hope to send a prepared team to the derelict to verify Ripley's claims instead of dismissing her, everything could've been avoided. But they didn't, allowing Burke to set his plan in motion, leading to a series of catastrophes.
By the time of the movie everyone involved in the original Special Order would likely be retired, dead, or both. We know the Company had no interest in investigating Ripley's claims at that time because the film shows they don't. Burke acting alone is proof of that.
But the Nostromo was lost. Were the logs sent to the shuttle? If so, then the whole hearing would have sounded absurd, as Ripley would have demanded that they study the logs and check the location given in it.
In addition, is it possible that given more advanced technology, like development of synths, we're looking at not simply logs from flight recorders but logs from computers that do flight recording and more, like navigating ships while crews are asleep, stopping ships, waking up crews, and ordering them to investigate signals following their contracts? Would Ash's analysis of the face-hugger, among others, also be recorded, together with Dallas' reports, requesting information from Mother, etc., or is tech spotty: advanced synths and computer logs, but the only thing uploaded to the shuttle are flight recorder logs?
Van Leuwen's statement makes no sense at all, and even Ripley would have seen through that, i.e., if the logs were there to be accessed, unless she accepts the implication that the logs were tampered with, which would have included not just the location of the ship but the computer ordering the crew to investigate the signal given company regulations.
If Burke got a cut, then that meant that he wasn't acting alone. And if he chose not to warn them, then he would have known, assuming that he believed what Ripley said, that they would enter the ship, get infected, and ironically start the security situation that he wanted to avoid in the first place.
The marines would have known knew that they weren't sent simply because of a communications blackout but because of a "bug hunt." That's why they came with a lot of firepower, and from what was gathered in the movie, specializes in "bug hunts." That's why they even had a bug stomper logo in their dropship.
It's absurd that they dismissed Ripley's claims given the point that they had at least the flight recorder logs. And if your claim is right that Burke believed Ripley and wanted to avoid a security situation, then he would have sent a prepared team and warned it about entering the ship instead of a mom-and-pop wildcat pair, and thus avoid what happened to the Nostromo crew. Ditto for the armed expedition with its greenhorn lieutenant.
Finally, the company had been exploring hundreds of worlds and examining indigenous lifeforms. The marines had been dealing with similar, i.e., based on their references to bug hunts and whatever they meant by Arcturians. And then there's the end of the third movie. All these plus the logs and the armed expedition show that the Special Order was not stopped, and that throughout both company and government continued with plans to acquire alien artifacts and speciments for profit and gain of function.
The above post is why we still need SM.
The hero we need, but not the one we deserve right now.
Quote from: ralfy on Oct 25, 2022, 01:39:24 AMBut the Nostromo was lost. Were the logs sent to the shuttle? If so, then the whole hearing would have sounded absurd, as Ripley would have demanded that they study the logs and check the location given in it.
Did you watch the film?
She does. They said they don't want to because the colonists haven't complained of anything.
QuoteVan Leuwen's statement makes no sense at all, and even Ripley would have seen through that, i.e., if the logs were there to be accessed, unless she accepts the implication that the logs were tampered with, which would have included not just the location of the ship but the computer ordering the crew to investigate the signal given company regulations.
They say there went over the flight recorder and that it mentions them landing, taking off, and self destructing - aka, the actual flight data, not special orders.
QuoteIf Burke got a cut, then that meant that he wasn't acting alone. And if he chose not to warn them, then he would have known, assuming that he believed what Ripley said, that they would enter the ship, get infected, and ironically start the security situation that he wanted to avoid in the first place.
If Burke got a cut it would mean the company would exploit the resources he found and pay him a royalty or similar dispensation.
Burke didn't know that they would enter the derelict. He didn't even know if there was a derelict. He might have guessed it was possible but he probably hoped they wouldn't to avoid everything getting out of hand.
QuoteThe marines would have known knew that they weren't sent simply because of a communications blackout but because of a "bug hunt." That's why they came with a lot of firepower, and from what was gathered in the movie, specializes in "bug hunts." That's why they even had a bug stomper logo in their dropship.
The marines are dismissive of the idea it's anything other than a communication blackout. The fact it happened near where Ripley said there might be something is the only reason she tags along, but nobody seriously considers that the reason.
QuoteIt's absurd that they dismissed Ripley's claims given the point that they had at least the flight recorder logs.
So the film is absurd. And?
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 25, 2022, 04:06:55 AMThe above post is why we still need SM.
I'm trying to pick up where he left off 4 years ago...
No one should even try to fill those shoes though, they were emptied for a reason in the first place.
Check how old this thread is and who Ralfy started off talking to.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Oct 25, 2022, 10:09:22 AMNo one should even try to fill those shoes though, they were emptied for a reason in the first place.
:'(
Quote from: SiL on Oct 25, 2022, 05:02:12 AMQuote from: ralfy on Oct 25, 2022, 01:39:24 AMBut the Nostromo was lost. Were the logs sent to the shuttle? If so, then the whole hearing would have sounded absurd, as Ripley would have demanded that they study the logs and check the location given in it.
Did you watch the film?
She does. They said they don't want to because the colonists haven't complained of anything.
QuoteVan Leuwen's statement makes no sense at all, and even Ripley would have seen through that, i.e., if the logs were there to be accessed, unless she accepts the implication that the logs were tampered with, which would have included not just the location of the ship but the computer ordering the crew to investigate the signal given company regulations.
They say there went over the flight recorder and that it mentions them landing, taking off, and self destructing - aka, the actual flight data, not special orders.
QuoteIf Burke got a cut, then that meant that he wasn't acting alone. And if he chose not to warn them, then he would have known, assuming that he believed what Ripley said, that they would enter the ship, get infected, and ironically start the security situation that he wanted to avoid in the first place.
If Burke got a cut it would mean the company would exploit the resources he found and pay him a royalty or similar dispensation.
Burke didn't know that they would enter the derelict. He didn't even know if there was a derelict. He might have guessed it was possible but he probably hoped they wouldn't to avoid everything getting out of hand.
QuoteThe marines would have known knew that they weren't sent simply because of a communications blackout but because of a "bug hunt." That's why they came with a lot of firepower, and from what was gathered in the movie, specializes in "bug hunts." That's why they even had a bug stomper logo in their dropship.
The marines are dismissive of the idea it's anything other than a communication blackout. The fact it happened near where Ripley said there might be something is the only reason she tags along, but nobody seriously considers that the reason.
QuoteIt's absurd that they dismissed Ripley's claims given the point that they had at least the flight recorder logs.
So the film is absurd. And?
According to Leuwen, it's the lifeboat log, not that of the Nostromo, and oddly enough records the fact that the Nostromo (actually, the landing craft of the Nostromo) set down on the rock, and that's it. Wouldn't the record include the location of where it landed?
And why was the lifeboat flight recorder operating and recording what the Nostromo was doing? Or are they logs uploaded to the lifeboat from the Nostromo?
The point that they didn't need to investigate because colonists didn't complain sounds ridiculous because colonists never found the ship until the location was reported to them. Ripley could have easily pointed that out in the hearing, unless the location was never given in the log. In which case, where did Burke get his information? The only logical source would have been the same logs, which means everyone in the board would have known.
The point that Burke gets a cut means he couldn't have been working alone, and the only logical source of the location pretty much invalidates even the possibility of that.. And, if as you pointed out, he believed Ripley, then he would have commonsensically assumed that anyone who enters the ship risks getting infected.
Why would you need an armed expedition to deal with a comms blackout? Even grunts that likely specialize in "bug hunts" and carrying lots of firepower would commonsensically ask that. Likely, they were not serious about the matter because they thought it was just another "routine" bug hunt. They even joked about having fun with colony gals after finishing their mission, which reminded them of Arcturians. (What was the latter about?)
Finally, it looks like you're agreeing with me. That's my analysis.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 25, 2022, 04:06:55 AMThe above post is why we still need SM.
I don't think SiL needs SM.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 25, 2022, 07:29:49 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Oct 25, 2022, 04:06:55 AMThe above post is why we still need SM.
I'm trying to pick up where he left off 4 years ago...
My recent posts has additional points to strengthen my analysis.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 25, 2022, 11:10:55 AMCheck how old this thread is and who Ralfy started off talking to.
I ignored SM because he resorted to personal attacks. I prefer our discussion because I find you more level-headed than him/her/it.
Quote from: ralfy on Oct 26, 2022, 01:13:25 AMFinally, it looks like you're agreeing with me.
I wouldn't count on that.
Quote from: ralfy on Oct 26, 2022, 01:13:25 AMI ignored SM because he resorted to personal attacks.
Citation needed.
So, let's recap some of these points:
Either the lifeboat oddly records what the Nostromo was doing or that the Nostromo log was uploaded to the lifeboat computer. Also, for all advanced tech, it appears that some systems are still primitive: the Nostromo has computers that can navigate the ship and take care of the crew while they are in hibernation, but for some odd reason will record only simple facts about changing course and landing, but not landing location.
And if the upload is automatic, it appears that that process is also primitive, as the computer probably didn't upload any logs about Dallas' conversation with Mother or even things like Ash's report on the face-hugger he was examining.
Burke has the location of the derelict ship, and we have no idea where he got it. If he probably imagined it, then that explains why he and the rest of the board don't believe Ripley. If he got it from the same logs, then that means what I wrote above is negated, and that he and the rest should have logically believed Ripley and wouldn't have needed her for investigating the matter further.
Burke sends the location to the colonial admin and instructs him to send someone to check out the place. If he probably imagined the location, then that explains why he was the only one who bothered to contact the colony. That means any cut he was thinking of getting must involve the point that "mineral rights" that the company and government had on the rock essentially involves anything found on the rock.
If he got the location from the log, then that means he wouldn't have been acting alone as everyone else in the board would have been examining the log, too. That would also mean that his cut would be lower as the rest would want a piece of the action, too. Burke would have accepted that because at least the colonial admin and the wildcat team would have wanted a cut, too.
He tells Ripley that they lost contact with the colony. That either means they sent the instructions to investigate the location and got nothing after that or that they received more and lied to Ripley so that she could be convinced to join them. If it's the former, then that means for some absurd reason the colony comms suddenly go down right after the Jordens return with the face-hugger. In which case, they would have just sent a regular ship with some security and supplies. If it's the latter, then that means they should have at least heard about the discovery of the ship, and probably the first face-hugger which infects one of the Jordens. That might explain why Burke decides to send an armed expedition and not simply one to deal with a mere "blackout situation."
The expedition sent is actually experienced in "bug hunts," is heavily armed, but appears to find some missions as routine, and for some reason is led by a greenhorn (their actual superior was probably not available). The ship that they use appears to be essentially a troop carrier with little by way of facilities to store things like alien organisms and artifacts, they only have the equivalent of a science officer but likely a tech synth attached to their team, little by way of techs needed to repair anything in the colony or scientists to recover alien material, only one medic and flight crew for itself and barring a colony of dozens of families, no backup or even second team to secure the perimeter of the derelict ship, etc.
This implies that they (Burke and other officials) were rushing, which is why the marines' briefing takes place onboard, that they were assuming that the colony was wiped out or would be left (they'd probably figure out how to pay off the marines in exchange for their silence, together with Ripley, or worse), which is why they would probably be interested in acquiring at least several alien eggs (or face-huggers if the eggs open automatically given nearby hosts), and probably send more expeditions for more.
One more thing: we don't know what happened after the movie. They had the location of the derelict ship, which meant they could have recovered eggs even after the colony blew up. If they didn't, then that meant Burke acted alone, and that for some absurd reason he had managed to commander a military troop carrier and personnel without the company or the government knowing. That also meant that he had only guessed the location of the ship, and that the location never showed up in any logs.
In short, it all boils down to Burke guessing the location of the alien craft, and was lucky to get it right.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 26, 2022, 01:23:13 AMQuote from: ralfy on Oct 26, 2022, 01:13:25 AMFinally, it looks like you're agreeing with me.
I wouldn't count on that.
Quote from: ralfy on Oct 26, 2022, 01:13:25 AMI ignored SM because he resorted to personal attacks.
Citation needed.
Well, he just did, which is why he ended with "And?" As for the latter, I don't want to bother unignoring him as enough forum members here are responding to my points.
Maybe you can help SiL out.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 23, 2022, 03:34:18 AMI sometimes wonder how Burke might have confirmed the derelict's presence without endangering the colonists and without turning it into a "major security situation."
It may have been enough to instruct them to report back at first sight of anything unusual and to NOT investigate further unless they received explicit instructions to do so from corporate HQ (under penalty of total forfeiture of shares).
More important, where did he get the location? The board only refers to the part that the Nostromo changes course and lands, but no location is discussed. Also, for some reason, the lifeboat flight recorder was operating at the same time as the Nostromo throughout.
I think the forfeiture of shares refers to the Nostromo crew refusing to investigate the signal.
Finally, I don't see the point about a "major security situation" as discovery of the ship even from outside would have already alarmed the ones who discovered it.
That means the only logical thing to do was to tell the colonial admin that they have reports of an alien craft in that location, that he should not tell anyone else in exchange for a nice cut, that he should send someone trusted or even go himself with a trusted team (even though it would have taken a week to travel to the location, I think), not to enter the ship or else they might get infected, and contact the company (maybe bring some sort of patch-up or repeater so that they can radio back from the site) about the discovery.
Of course, if Burke was only guessing the location, that that explains much of what happened in the movie.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 23, 2022, 03:55:22 AMI imagine that's exactly what he was expecting; someone would go out, find a giant alien construction, and call back saying "Hey, we found a giant alien construction." If Russ Jordan hadn't gone inside to take a look it's entirely possible everything could've been avoided and Burke could've retired early very well off.
He would have because he gave the grid reference. He would not have expected it if he had guessed the location.
If it's the former, where did he get the location? It's not mentioned in the hearing, and board members pointed out that the colony had been there for decades and found no such thing.
And if there's no other source for the location, then that means Burke guessed that the alien ship was in that specific grid, and he was lucky.
Quote from: ralfy on Oct 26, 2022, 01:50:16 AMMore important, where did he get the location?
From the flight recorder.
Quote from: ralfy on Oct 26, 2022, 01:50:16 AMThe board only refers to the part that the Nostromo changes course and lands, but no location is discussed.
Are you actually suggesting that it wasn't in the flight logs just because Van Leuwen didn't bother to go into unnecessarily granular detail?
Quote from: ralfy on Oct 26, 2022, 01:50:16 AMAlso, for some reason, the lifeboat flight recorder was operating at the same time as the Nostromo throughout.
In the event of an emergency launch, I'd assume that the shuttle's flight recorder would have little value to an investigation if it
didn't run at the same time as the Nostromo's. In fact, the Sulaco's EEV did the very same thing in the following movie.
I think everything has been said. The film is pretty clear on what happens; if people want to invent their own stories, they are welcome to do so, but there's no real point in discussing it further.
Did he ghost us? Is it going to be another four years?
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 26, 2022, 02:11:56 AMQuote from: ralfy on Oct 26, 2022, 01:50:16 AMMore important, where did he get the location?
From the flight recorder.
Quote from: ralfy on Oct 26, 2022, 01:50:16 AMThe board only refers to the part that the Nostromo changes course and lands, but no location is discussed.
Are you actually suggesting that it wasn't in the flight logs just because Van Leuwen didn't bother to go into unnecessarily granular detail?
Quote from: ralfy on Oct 26, 2022, 01:50:16 AMAlso, for some reason, the lifeboat flight recorder was operating at the same time as the Nostromo throughout.
In the event of an emergency launch, I'd assume that the shuttle's flight recorder would have little value to an investigation if it didn't run at the same time as the Nostromo's. In fact, the Sulaco's EEV did the very same thing in the following movie.
Yes, that was my point: in order to make the story believable, the lifeboat flight recorder had to be operating the same time as that of the Nostromo throughout, and even though it wasn't operating and still docked to the Nostromo.
Obviously a flight recorder can only corroborate some of Ripley's points, as it only plots the vessel movement. What they needed are the ships logs, similar to what Ripley was recording at the end the first movie. For some weird reason, with technology to develop computers that can operate not just vessel movement but everything in a ship (which is why its crew can remain in hibernation for long periods of time), not to mention synths that can operate like human beings, they couldn't come up with systems to automatically upload logs (not just flight movement) to computers in lifeboats. That's why the only thing that the board and Ripley had to start with is the location of the alien ship, which for some weird reason was recorded by a docked lifeboat.
That means throughout the hearing Ripley would have argued for them to check the location and confirm her claim before resuming the hearing, and yet that was never mentioned in the hearing as depicted in the movie. From what I remember, Ripley bothers to ask them to do that only after the hearing, after which she's told that they had a colony on the rock for the last two decades and didn't see any alien craft.
That means Ripley didn't bother to do research on the matter to defend herself, such as finding out if they had found the rock the last fifty years she was gone and if they had seen anything at least on the location given in the flight recorder and didn't bother to raise the point about investigating the location until after the file is closed.
Finally, and most important, everyone in the board and Ripley had information on the grid reference of the ship. That means for some reason no one in the same board didn't bother to continue investigations after the file is closed except for Burke, or Burke was acting on orders of the company and government allies and didn't want Ripley to know.
But assuming that Ripley still had enough common sense, then she could have easily assumed the following when Burke approached her for help:
The issue about a downed transmitter and Burke accompanying them to protect mineral rights can be set aside. The reason why they are sending a heavily armed expedition is because someone told the colony to go to the alien ship, and because of that the colony got screwed in the same was as the Nostromo crew. That's why they want her to join them, as she has the most knowledge about the aliens.
Since the colony was already screwed, then likely they are sending an expedition to recover alien artifacts and organisms. And yet she's against that.
To gain access to a military vessel, Burke could not be acting alone. Even his promise of reinstating her flight status doesn't hold water unless the company puts it in writing.
Finally, Ripley probably realized all of that, but I suspect that she was struggling with the desire not to have others exposed to the aliens vs. accepting the penalty imposed by the board given the conclusion that there are no aliens. Since the location of the ship was known and it appears that they now have to believe Ripley but still want confirmation, then she would have concluded that they were going to throw her to the wolves again.
Which is what happened.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 26, 2022, 02:59:10 AMI think everything has been said. The film is pretty clear on what happens; if people want to invent their own stories, they are welcome to do so, but there's no real point in discussing it further.
Why not? This whole board is about a franchise where the first movie was made more than four decades ago.
Also, the points I raised stem from events occurring in the movie, so I'm not exactly inventing stories. Rather, it's an analysis of the story of the movie, which is title of the thread.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 27, 2022, 01:21:15 AMDid he ghost us? Is it going to be another four years?
I'll continue posting as long as others have questions about what I shared or additional points. In short, follow what you're doing now.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 27, 2022, 01:21:15 AMDid he ghost us? Is it going to be another four years?
Seems not.
I'm not sure if this has been pointed out already, and I don't feel like going through the last several pages to catch up but anyway...
I'm pretty sure The flight recorder on the shuttle recorded everything. The records were partially erased by Burke prior to the inquest meeting so he could exploit the information/situation later on. The source for this info is the novel adaptation by Alan Dean Foster.
The discussion is only using the film.
In the film, the flight recorder only has the flight data -- where the ship went, what it did (land, take off, explode), not why.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 27, 2022, 04:39:18 AMThe discussion is only using the film.
In the film, the flight recorder only has the flight data -- where the ship went, what it did (land, take off, explode), not why.
Fair enough
@ralfy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_recorder
QuoteThere are two types of flight recording devices: the flight data recorder (FDR) preserves the recent history of the flight through the recording of dozens of parameters collected several times per second; the cockpit voice recorder (CVR) preserves the recent history of the sounds in the cockpit, including the conversation of the pilots. The two devices may be combined into a single unit. Together, the FDR and CVR objectively document the aircraft's flight history, which may assist in any later investigation.
The shuttle pretty clearly had only an FDR. Either it was synced with the mothership's FDR or it operated independently and recorded everything about the landing on LV-426 because it went wherever the Nostromo went. Take your pick.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 27, 2022, 05:15:24 AM@ralfy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_recorder
QuoteThere are two types of flight recording devices: the flight data recorder (FDR) preserves the recent history of the flight through the recording of dozens of parameters collected several times per second; the cockpit voice recorder (CVR) preserves the recent history of the sounds in the cockpit, including the conversation of the pilots. The two devices may be combined into a single unit. Together, the FDR and CVR objectively document the aircraft's flight history, which may assist in any later investigation.
The shuttle pretty clearly had only an FDR. Either it was synced with the mothership's FDR or it operated independently and recorded everything about the landing on LV-426 because it went wherever the Nostromo went. Take your pick.
Makes sense to me it had its own flight recorder and operated independently, because as you point out, the shuttle went where the nostromo went, so their records were the same.
@ralfy Also worth mentioning: Ripley told the board that the derelict was transmitting a beacon. The simple fact that no one else detected that beacon for over 20 years (
especially the colonists who actually lived there) is probably another huge reason he didn't believe her or bother with investigating further.
There was no beacon.
Nobody complained about deadly alien organisms.
The investigative team found no evidence of the Alien in the shuttle where she said it was.
Dude had no reason to take her seriously. As Burke said, asking the Colony to check and telling them why would make it a huge security issue, and he probably felt there was no compelling reason to bother.
It's still why everyone died, and they could have checked, but it's not that absurd they didn't with how the situation was presented.
Someone give me the cliff notes version lol what's the debate here exactly?
Please don't make me read the previous pages! Lol
Ralfy seems to be operating under the assumption that nothing the film says happened actually happened, and that some twisting conspiracy happened instead.
I cannot think of a finer example of TL;DR in recent AvPG history.
LOL
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Oct 27, 2022, 09:12:36 AMI cannot think of a finer example of TL;DR in recent AvPG history.
Lol
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Oct 27, 2022, 09:12:36 AMI cannot think of a finer example of TL;DR in recent AvPG history.
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/2m21KnBOB9TUCAwBRz/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Engineer on Oct 27, 2022, 03:10:18 AMI'm not sure if this has been pointed out already, and I don't feel like going through the last several pages to catch up but anyway...
I'm pretty sure The flight recorder on the shuttle recorded everything. The records were partially erased by Burke prior to the inquest meeting so he could exploit the information/situation later on. The source for this info is the novel adaptation by Alan Dean Foster.
That's why I mentioned that my analysis is based only on the movie. Otherwise, one can can fix any problems through an EU.
In this case, according to van Leuwen, the lifeboat of the flight recorder only reports that they landed and then took off and resumed course. No location is mentioned.
After that, he adds that the flight recorder also didn't contain any entries about the facehugger.
That should be the case if the only function of a flight recorder is to record the location of a ship as it moves. But that also means it should have recorded the location of a ship when it lands.
Meanwhile, van Leuwen refers to the lifeboat flight recorder. That means it was operational throughout; either that or the Nostromo flight recorder was uploaded to that of the lifeboat during the self-destruct sequence.
Finally, why is van Leuwen looking for details about encountering hostile organisms in a flight recorder? Perhaps it's not a flight recorder but a computer that logs all ship activity, status, etc.
Also,
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 27, 2022, 05:15:24 AM@ralfy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_recorder
QuoteThere are two types of flight recording devices: the flight data recorder (FDR) preserves the recent history of the flight through the recording of dozens of parameters collected several times per second; the cockpit voice recorder (CVR) preserves the recent history of the sounds in the cockpit, including the conversation of the pilots. The two devices may be combined into a single unit. Together, the FDR and CVR objectively document the aircraft's flight history, which may assist in any later investigation.
The shuttle pretty clearly had only an FDR. Either it was synced with the mothership's FDR or it operated independently and recorded everything about the landing on LV-426 because it went wherever the Nostromo went. Take your pick.
That's my guess, but the problem is that the location of the derelict ship isn't discussed in the investigation, and van Leuwen was looking for information on the hostile organism in the same flight recorder log. Given the function of a flight recorder, it won't be able to provide that.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 27, 2022, 06:07:11 AMThere was no beacon.
Nobody complained about deadly alien organisms.
The investigative team found no evidence of the Alien in the shuttle where she said it was.
Dude had no reason to take her seriously. As Burke said, asking the Colony to check and telling them why would make it a huge security issue, and he probably felt there was no compelling reason to bother.
It's still why everyone died, and they could have checked, but it's not that absurd they didn't with how the situation was presented.
The problem is that the board was looking for information about the hostile organism in the flight recorder logs. It's highly unlikely that they don't know what a flight recorder does; that means the script writer is referring to a ship's log, which includes what the flight recorder records.
In which case, it would have recorded receiving the beacon signal, the change of course to the rock, landing on the rock and recording the location, initial report from Dallas reporting that they followed the company's instructions (else, they wouldn't get their cut) but got into trouble with an organism, and so on. Probably even the interaction between Dallas and Mother were recorded.
After which all of these were uploaded to the lifeboat computer; either that, or the lifeboat computer was operating in parallel to that of Mother, receiving updates from the Nostromo. That sounds logical as that creates system redundancy, which is important for companies and insurers obsessed over their very expensive investments, whether they are minerals or mineral rights, not to mention anything that can gained from alien artifacts and organisms.
The thoroughness of the company and government can also be seen in their points during the same hearing, where they analyze lifeboats centimeter by centimeter, conduct extensive surveys in hundreds of worlds, and discovering and examining indigenous lifeforms. And yet in this case either the location of the alien ship, which is the linchpin in Ripley's defense and the source of potential revenues for the moneybags, is not even mentioned.
That's why the board had to illogically argue that there's no beacon and no one complaining about some alien ship, and Ripley ironically accepts that excuse.
Last point: Ripley finds out that a colony was set up on the rock after the hearing and when the file is closed. That means she didn't bother to conduct basic research on what was happening involving that rock, the company, and the government the last fifty years. In fact, van Leuwen even states it to her as a matter-of-fact, i.e., it's common knowledge, i.e., for anyone who's been reading the news the last five decades.
Maybe Ripley should have hired counsel.
Quote from: Engineer on Oct 27, 2022, 06:12:41 AMSomeone give me the cliff notes version lol what's the debate here exactly?
Please don't make me read the previous pages! Lol
Van Leuwen refers to a flight recorder that only reports that the ship landed, took off, and resumed course. No location is given because it's never mentioned during the hearing and Ripley doesn't use it to defend herself. That's why she accepts the verdict at the end: she's crazy, so she has to undergo psych evaluation, and her license is suspended.
Van Leuwen, though, refers to reports on hostile organisms not found in the flight recorder. But flight recorders aren't supposed to record that. Was the script writer actually referring to ship logs which report more?
Ripley finds out later that Burke got the location and sent it to the colony. Where did he get the location? In the hearing, van Leuwen doesn't refer to it, and Ripley doesn't, either, which is why he accepts the board investigation conclusions.
BTW, a board of inquiry is supposed to investigate rather than pass judgment, and it doesn't look like an internal company affair as government officials are included in the board, together with insurers. If that were more an investigation, then Ripley could have demanded that they investigate the location of the ship. Any claim that colonists aren't complaining doesn't hold water because it's possible that they had not investigated that particular location, which turns out to be the case.
Burke and Ripley refer to Burke's cut, which implies that Burke isn't acting alone. In addition, the only place he could have gotten the location was the ship's logs, which means the board had access to it as well. But that derails the hearing because Ripley could have requested for the same in order to complete her deposition, and allow her to logically compel the board to investigate the location first before resuming the hearing.
There were more points discussed, but this should probably do for now.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 27, 2022, 08:09:24 AMRalfy seems to be operating under the assumption that nothing the film says happened actually happened, and that some twisting conspiracy happened instead.
Actually, the opposite. My points are based on what happened in the movie, e.g., references to a lifeboat flight recorder, van Leuwen looking for data from a flight recorder that the latter wouldn't be recording, the landing location that a flight recorder would be recording but isn't even discussed during the hearing, and so on.
In addition, there's an interesting reference made earlier from the EU that Burke scrubbed the ship's logs. Wouldn't that be seen by anyone analyzing the logs, e.g., the ship lands, but no place is given?
Quote from: Kradan on Oct 27, 2022, 12:02:37 PMLOL
Maybe forum members should look at thread titles: "Aliens: An Analysis."
There's a lot of conversation that took place in that inquest meeting we didn't hear. We came into it at the end. We have no idea what ripley told them. She could have given them the exact location in the solar system for where they went, even if it wasn't documented on the flight recorder. Any assumptions about what information was presented, or not presented, in that meeting before we were brought in is purely speculation. What matters is Ripley didn't have enough information/evidence to support her claims so nobody believes her, but Burke looked into it anyway. Burke knew enough to give the colonists a "grid reference." The movie plays out from there... it's pretty straight forward.
And the movie adaptation by Alan Dean foster can and does offer some good details that have been around since the movie released. Many of those details coming from the script even if they didn't make it into the film. So I can understand ignoring EU materials (a lot of it gets pretty convoluted anyway), but if there's any one source outside the movie you'd want to look at, that'd be the one. That being said, I understand the the book doesn't count in this conversation; SiL already brought me up to speed on that...
Quote from: ralfy on Oct 28, 2022, 01:35:54 AMThat's my guess, but the problem is that the location of the derelict ship isn't discussed in the investigation, and van Leuwen was looking for information on the hostile organism in the same flight recorder log. Given the function of a flight recorder, it won't be able to provide that.
The location of the derelict was
irrelevant. The flight recorder was referenced because it was the only piece of evidence that actually corroborated
any part of Ripley's story; that being the Nostromo's inexplicable landing on LV-426.
For what it's worth the flight recorder wouldn't have the specific coordinates of the derelict anyway. Burke probably sent the colonists out to the general area where the Nostromo landed, knowing the derelict was in walking distance.
Yeah, I imagine the flight recorder contained information like this:
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/g2kJ2Gb.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/7KPlk4u.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/eqGZMx9.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/6zRttPo.jpg)
Which, by itself, was proof of nothing except that the Nostromo landed and where.
Man I love those screens.
QuoteBurke and Ripley refer to Burke's cut, which implies that Burke isn't acting alone.
Ok gonna respond to this specifically real quick. This does NOT imply that Burke wasn't working alone. I used to work in a lab for a large company. It was made very clear to me that if I came up with something of value on company-time, then the *thing* or intellectual property would belong to both me and my company. It didn't matter if I had help or not. The logic being that they gave me my paychecks. since it was on company-time, I was being paid, and therefore it becomes shared ownership. Burke is just assuming that if he succeeds in bringing back the organism, that WY would take their piece since he was acting while on company-time.
QuoteIn addition, there's an interesting reference made earlier from the EU that Burke scrubbed the ship's logs. Wouldn't that be seen by anyone analyzing the logs, e.g., the ship lands, but no place is given?
Since it was me who brought this up, I'll go ahead and say that, if my memory serves me well, the book raises this same question but ripley doesn't get the chance to look into it further since she figured it out after they went to lv-426.
Quote from: Engineer on Oct 28, 2022, 06:57:25 AMOk gonna respond to this specifically real quick. This does NOT imply that Burke wasn't working alone. I used to work in a lab for a large company. It was made very clear to me that if I came up with something of value on company-time, then the *thing* or intellectual property would belong to both me and my company. It didn't matter if I had help or not. The logic being that they gave me my paychecks. since it was on company-time, I was being paid, and therefore it becomes shared ownership. Burke is just assuming that if he succeeds in bringing back the organism, that WY would take their piece since he was acting while on company-time.
I did explain this to him. He doesn't listen :(
Quote from: SiL on Oct 28, 2022, 07:19:01 AMQuote from: Engineer on Oct 28, 2022, 06:57:25 AMOk gonna respond to this specifically real quick. This does NOT imply that Burke wasn't working alone. I used to work in a lab for a large company. It was made very clear to me that if I came up with something of value on company-time, then the *thing* or intellectual property would belong to both me and my company. It didn't matter if I had help or not. The logic being that they gave me my paychecks. since it was on company-time, I was being paid, and therefore it becomes shared ownership. Burke is just assuming that if he succeeds in bringing back the organism, that WY would take their piece since he was acting while on company-time.
I did explain this to him. He doesn't listen :(
Lol
Well maybe it takes two? 🤷
Quote from: Engineer on Oct 28, 2022, 07:26:23 AMQuote from: SiL on Oct 28, 2022, 07:19:01 AMQuote from: Engineer on Oct 28, 2022, 06:57:25 AMOk gonna respond to this specifically real quick. This does NOT imply that Burke wasn't working alone. I used to work in a lab for a large company. It was made very clear to me that if I came up with something of value on company-time, then the *thing* or intellectual property would belong to both me and my company. It didn't matter if I had help or not. The logic being that they gave me my paychecks. since it was on company-time, I was being paid, and therefore it becomes shared ownership. Burke is just assuming that if he succeeds in bringing back the organism, that WY would take their piece since he was acting while on company-time.
I did explain this to him. He doesn't listen :(
Lol
Well maybe it takes two? 🤷
I am happy to tag-team this discussion with you. I'm exhausted with it; you take it from here, and let me know when you need me to tap in :laugh:
There's not much of a discussion though, just denial lol. The movie is pretty straight forward. Nothing implies some grand conspiracy 57 years (or more) in the making... unless of course, you factor in the EU 😜 (*cough* River of pain *cough*)
Yeah the movies are pretty clear that the Company is just a shitty company. They're not above the law, they don't have weird, special privileges. They're just a shit, unethical multinational run by self-serving psychopaths.
Cue further incredulous musings about the shuttle's flight recorder...
Quote from: Engineer on Oct 28, 2022, 02:33:28 AMThere's a lot of conversation that took place in that inquest meeting we didn't hear. We came into it at the end. We have no idea what ripley told them. She could have given them the exact location in the solar system for where they went, even if it wasn't documented on the flight recorder. Any assumptions about what information was presented, or not presented, in that meeting before we were brought in is purely speculation. What matters is Ripley didn't have enough information/evidence to support her claims so nobody believes her, but Burke looked into it anyway. Burke knew enough to give the colonists a "grid reference." The movie plays out from there... it's pretty straight forward.
And the movie adaptation by Alan Dean foster can and does offer some good details that have been around since the movie released. Many of those details coming from the script even if they didn't make it into the film. So I can understand ignoring EU materials (a lot of it gets pretty convoluted anyway), but if there's any one source outside the movie you'd want to look at, that'd be the one. That being said, I understand the the book doesn't count in this conversation; SiL already brought me up to speed on that...
Even if the grid reference came from her, which itself is already odd, then that would have made the hearing illogical, especially van Leuwen's claim that that the flight recorder only refers to the fact that the ship landed and then resumed course. Ripley would have pushed them to investigate the location during the hearing, and not after the file is closed. On top of that, she only discovers then that there was a colony, something that the board would have raised if they had discussed the location.
In addition, van Leuwen's reason doesn't hold water, i.e., colonists had been there for decades but they have not reported seeing an alien craft. Ripley could have used common sense and told him that it's probably because they didn't go to the specific location.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 28, 2022, 02:36:22 AMQuote from: ralfy on Oct 28, 2022, 01:35:54 AMThat's my guess, but the problem is that the location of the derelict ship isn't discussed in the investigation, and van Leuwen was looking for information on the hostile organism in the same flight recorder log. Given the function of a flight recorder, it won't be able to provide that.
The location of the derelict was irrelevant. The flight recorder was referenced because it was the only piece of evidence that actually corroborated any part of Ripley's story; that being the Nostromo's inexplicable landing on LV-426.
It's relevant for painfully obvious reasons, as it's the only thing that can prove Ripley's claims and allow the company to make a lot of moolah. From the location, one can discover the alien ship, see the eggs inside, and find out what would happen if one comes close to them.
Also, flight recorders don't simply report that the ship landed and resumed course. They also state where the ship landed and what course it took after taking off.
Next, why was the lifeboat flight recorder operating even when the lifeboat was docked and non-operational? Or is it possible that what's referred to is the lifeboat computer, i.e., the one that allows crew to enter hibernational and can operate the ship automatically, and in this case probably received the Nostromo ship's logs, including flight path?
That question should be raised because van Leuwen was looking for encounters with the hostile organism in the lifeboat flight recorder. The latter does not do that; it only records flight path, which as pointed out earlier, should include the location of the landing. Was the flight recorder referred to in the hearing actually the ship's logs?
Quote from: SiL on Oct 28, 2022, 04:56:49 AMFor what it's worth the flight recorder wouldn't have the specific coordinates of the derelict anyway. Burke probably sent the colonists out to the general area where the Nostromo landed, knowing the derelict was in walking distance.
Yes, but it would have the location where the crew landed. From there, Burke would have given the grid reference where the landing took place and then ask the colony to investigate the grid. But according to van Leuwen, the flight recorder only states that the ship landed and then resumed course; no other details are given. That meant that they had no landing location, and with that no grid reference.
But Burke gave the grid reference from the colony. Where did he get it?
If it came from the flight recorder, then what van Leuwen said during the hearing doesn't make sense.
If it came from Ripley's memory, then what van Leuwen said is pointless and what Ripley did right after the hearing doesn't make sense.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 28, 2022, 05:29:27 AMYeah, I imagine the flight recorder contained information like this:
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/g2kJ2Gb.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/7KPlk4u.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/eqGZMx9.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/6zRttPo.jpg)
Which, by itself, was proof of nothing except that the Nostromo landed and where.
I think the numbers refer to coordinates, time, etc.
Quote from: Engineer on Oct 28, 2022, 06:57:25 AMQuoteBurke and Ripley refer to Burke's cut, which implies that Burke isn't acting alone.
Ok gonna respond to this specifically real quick. This does NOT imply that Burke wasn't working alone. I used to work in a lab for a large company. It was made very clear to me that if I came up with something of value on company-time, then the *thing* or intellectual property would belong to both me and my company. It didn't matter if I had help or not. The logic being that they gave me my paychecks. since it was on company-time, I was being paid, and therefore it becomes shared ownership. Burke is just assuming that if he succeeds in bringing back the organism, that WY would take their piece since he was acting while on company-time.
QuoteIn addition, there's an interesting reference made earlier from the EU that Burke scrubbed the ship's logs. Wouldn't that be seen by anyone analyzing the logs, e.g., the ship lands, but no place is given?
Since it was me who brought this up, I'll go ahead and say that, if my memory serves me well, the book raises this same question but ripley doesn't get the chance to look into it further since she figured it out after they went to lv-426.
Right, which is why the claim that Burke was working alone doesn't make sense.
About referring to things from an EU, I think that only shows that there are problems with the original story.
QuoteEven if the grid reference came from her, which itself is already odd, then that would have made the hearing illogical, especially van Leuwen's claim that that the flight recorder only refers to the fact that the ship landed and then resumed course. Ripley would have pushed them to investigate the location during the hearing, and not after the file is closed. On top of that, she only discovers then that there was a colony, something that the board would have raised if they had discussed the location.
In addition, van Leuwen's reason doesn't hold water, i.e., colonists had been there for decades but they have not reported seeing an alien craft. Ripley could have used common sense and told him that it's probably because they didn't go to the specific location.
You're missing a very important point. You're basing all of this off of what was said in that meeting. But you're not considering the fact that they had been there for hours; we only saw the last few minutes of the meeting. The ship location, or approximate location (i.e., a grid reference) could have very well been deduced with information from ripley and/or the flight recorder. All they'd need is where did the nostromo land approximately (ripley could have remembered that; it had only been a few days for her), and what direction Dallas, Kane and lambert started walking in. That would give them an approximate area to search. That's all Burke needed when getting the colonists to go search the area.
All that matters is: No one believed ripley. Burke had enough info to provide the colonists with an area to search. That's it.
And ripley DID push for an investigation. She literally told him to go check out lv-426 for himself just before it's revealed there's been a colony there for 20 years.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 28, 2022, 07:19:01 AMQuote from: Engineer on Oct 28, 2022, 06:57:25 AMOk gonna respond to this specifically real quick. This does NOT imply that Burke wasn't working alone. I used to work in a lab for a large company. It was made very clear to me that if I came up with something of value on company-time, then the *thing* or intellectual property would belong to both me and my company. It didn't matter if I had help or not. The logic being that they gave me my paychecks. since it was on company-time, I was being paid, and therefore it becomes shared ownership. Burke is just assuming that if he succeeds in bringing back the organism, that WY would take their piece since he was acting while on company-time.
I did explain this to him. He doesn't listen :(
You didn't have to because that was my point: he couldn't have been working alone because the landing location would have been in the deposition, and taken from either Ripley's memory (which is odd) but never discussed during the hearing, or guesswork from Burke.
Quote from: Engineer on Oct 28, 2022, 07:32:02 AMThere's not much of a discussion though, just denial lol. The movie is pretty straight forward. Nothing implies some grand conspiracy 57 years (or more) in the making... unless of course, you factor in the EU 😜 (*cough* River of pain *cough*)
Given our discussion, apparently not.
Also, ironically the first reference to the EU in response to my recent posts tries to explain away what is supposed to be straightforward. Go figure. ::)
QuoteRight, which is why the claim that Burke was working alone doesn't make sense.
About referring to things from an EU, I think that only shows that there are problems with the original story.
What?!? Burke was absolutely working by himself lmfao
Quote from: ralfy on Oct 29, 2022, 02:07:44 AMQuote from: SiL on Oct 28, 2022, 07:19:01 AMQuote from: Engineer on Oct 28, 2022, 06:57:25 AMOk gonna respond to this specifically real quick. This does NOT imply that Burke wasn't working alone. I used to work in a lab for a large company. It was made very clear to me that if I came up with something of value on company-time, then the *thing* or intellectual property would belong to both me and my company. It didn't matter if I had help or not. The logic being that they gave me my paychecks. since it was on company-time, I was being paid, and therefore it becomes shared ownership. Burke is just assuming that if he succeeds in bringing back the organism, that WY would take their piece since he was acting while on company-time.
I did explain this to him. He doesn't listen :(
You didn't have to because that was my point: he couldn't have been working alone because the landing location would have been in the deposition, and taken from either Ripley's memory (which is odd) but never discussed during the hearing, or guesswork from Burke.
Quote from: Engineer on Oct 28, 2022, 07:32:02 AMThere's not much of a discussion though, just denial lol. The movie is pretty straight forward. Nothing implies some grand conspiracy 57 years (or more) in the making... unless of course, you factor in the EU 😜 (*cough* River of pain *cough*)
Given our discussion, apparently not.
Also, ironically the first reference to the EU in response to my recent posts tries to explain away what is supposed to be straightforward. Go figure. ::)
Lol uhmkay
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 28, 2022, 05:35:29 PMCue further incredulous musings about the shuttle's flight recorder...
Yes, flight recorders should also contain entries on encounters with hostile organisms. ;D
Quote from: Engineer on Oct 29, 2022, 02:07:00 AMQuoteEven if the grid reference came from her, which itself is already odd, then that would have made the hearing illogical, especially van Leuwen's claim that that the flight recorder only refers to the fact that the ship landed and then resumed course. Ripley would have pushed them to investigate the location during the hearing, and not after the file is closed. On top of that, she only discovers then that there was a colony, something that the board would have raised if they had discussed the location.
In addition, van Leuwen's reason doesn't hold water, i.e., colonists had been there for decades but they have not reported seeing an alien craft. Ripley could have used common sense and told him that it's probably because they didn't go to the specific location.
You're missing a very important point. You're basing all of this off of what was said in that meeting. But you're not considering the fact that they had been there for hours; we only saw the last few minutes of the meeting. The ship location, or approximate location (i.e., a grid reference) could have very well been deduced with information from ripley and/or the flight recorder. All they'd need is where did the nostromo land approximately (ripley could have remembered that; it had only been a few days for her), and what direction Dallas, Kane and lambert started walking in. That would give them an approximate area to search. That's all Burke needed when getting the colonists to go search the area.
All that matters is: No one believed ripley. Burke had enough info to provide the colonists with an area to search. That's it.
And ripley DID push for an investigation. She literally told him to go check out lv-426 for himself just before it's revealed there's been a colony there for 20 years.
According to van Leuwen, the flight recorder only mentioned that the ship landed and then resumed course. Had it mentioned the landing location, then Ripley would have asked them to investigate the site. In which case, the hearing would have been suspended pending investigation of the site. But that didn't happen, because Ripley ends up asking van Leuwen to "just check out LV-426" AFTER the hearing and after the investigation is completed: "FILE CLOSED". That's why the "board of inquiry" concluded that Ripley acted questionably (by destroying the company ship) and is thus suspended as a commercial flight officer. In addition, she is required to undergo psychiatric evaluation.
One reason why the location was never discussed during the hearing is because Ripley was surprised to find out from van Leuwen that a colony had been on the rock for twenty years and had not reported seeing that alien ship. Had the location been discussed during the hearing then Ripley would have known about the existence of the colony because van Leuwen would have given the same excuse.
Quote from: Engineer on Oct 29, 2022, 02:09:36 AMQuoteRight, which is why the claim that Burke was working alone doesn't make sense.
About referring to things from an EU, I think that only shows that there are problems with the original story.
What?!? Burke was absolutely working by himself lmfao
Quote from: ralfy on Oct 29, 2022, 02:07:44 AMQuote from: SiL on Oct 28, 2022, 07:19:01 AMQuote from: Engineer on Oct 28, 2022, 06:57:25 AMOk gonna respond to this specifically real quick. This does NOT imply that Burke wasn't working alone. I used to work in a lab for a large company. It was made very clear to me that if I came up with something of value on company-time, then the *thing* or intellectual property would belong to both me and my company. It didn't matter if I had help or not. The logic being that they gave me my paychecks. since it was on company-time, I was being paid, and therefore it becomes shared ownership. Burke is just assuming that if he succeeds in bringing back the organism, that WY would take their piece since he was acting while on company-time.
I did explain this to him. He doesn't listen :(
You didn't have to because that was my point: he couldn't have been working alone because the landing location would have been in the deposition, and taken from either Ripley's memory (which is odd) but never discussed during the hearing, or guesswork from Burke.
Quote from: Engineer on Oct 28, 2022, 07:32:02 AMThere's not much of a discussion though, just denial lol. The movie is pretty straight forward. Nothing implies some grand conspiracy 57 years (or more) in the making... unless of course, you factor in the EU 😜 (*cough* River of pain *cough*)
Given our discussion, apparently not.
Also, ironically the first reference to the EU in response to my recent posts tries to explain away what is supposed to be straightforward. Go figure. ::)
Lol uhmkay
If he had been working by himself, then that would mean that he was the only one who had access to the location, or he guessed it.
You're not making any sense lol
Have fun with this
I ain't picking this back up.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 29, 2022, 03:04:56 AMI ain't picking this back up.
So what you really mean is... you're not picking down what he's putting up? Me neither...
I don't know how many different ways I can explain the obvious.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 29, 2022, 03:26:40 AMI don't know how many different ways I can explain the obvious.
This totally reminded me of the very first line during the inquest meeting scene
"I don't understand this. We have been at this for three and a half hours. Now, how many different ways do you want me to tell the same story?"
-Ripley
Lmfao
@Xenomrph We could use a hand here.
Because I need
@Local Trouble to love me again:
Quote from: ralfy on Oct 29, 2022, 02:14:34 AMIf he had been working by himself, then that would mean that he was the only one who had access to the location, or he guessed it.
He was the only one who thought it was worth checking out.
If Van Leuwen requested it be checked out, it would be a huge security situations, as Burke says. But from Van Leuwen's perspective, Ripley wasn't credible -- the shuttle contained no sign of the Alien and the colony on the planetoid had been living there peacefully for decades. So why waste everyone's time and effort on it? She'd been asleep for 57 years, she was suffering PTSD and side-effects of long hypersleep.
Is it the right thing to have done?
Hell no, it's super irresponsible.
Does that mean he didn't do it?
Also no.
"Someone didn't do their job properly" is a perfectly valid explanation. We see it all the time in real life; investigations completely ruined because someone in charge didn't bother checking one piece of evidence that would've solved everything.
Van Leuwen decided Ripley was crazy based on everything else and didn't feel the need to be any more thorough about it. It doesn't need to go further than that.
Also also:
The chronology of the film supports Burke acting alone.
Ripley arrives
Inquest
Burke sends colonists
Shit happens
He was in the room when Van Leuwen said he wasn't going to check the planet. Given the directors cut, that's exactly when he decided to check himself.
Quote from: Engineer on Oct 29, 2022, 02:56:03 AMYou're not making any sense lol
Have fun with this
I explained each of my points clearly. If there's anything that you did not understand, then let me know, and I'll give you a simpler explanation.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 29, 2022, 03:04:56 AMI ain't picking this back up.
I think what you mean is that you want to back out.
Quote from: Engineer on Oct 29, 2022, 03:43:26 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Oct 29, 2022, 03:26:40 AMI don't know how many different ways I can explain the obvious.
This totally reminded me of the very first line during the inquest meeting scene
"I don't understand this. We have been at this for three and a half hours. Now, how many different ways do you want me to tell the same story?"
-Ripley
Lmfao
What you need to look at is not the first line of the hearing but what happens right after the hearing.
She brings up the point of looking for the alien ship after is concluded and the file is closed; in short, when it's already too late and the investigation is closed.
Also, we're not sure if she even knows the location of the ship, as she asks van Leuwen after the hearing to "just check out LV-426." He dismisses her suggestion by stating that they don't have to do that because a colony had been there for two decades and that they never reported seeing an alien ship. The presence of a colony surprises Ripley, which means it was never brought up in the hearing. Why? Because had she raised the issue of the location of the ship during the hearing, then van Leuwen would have told her about the colony.
Get it? Her ignorance of the presence of the colony shows that the issue of the location of the ship was never discussed during the hearing; otherwise, van Leuwen would have brought up the fact about the colony during the same.
But here's the problem: Burke gave the grid reference of the location of the derelict ship to the colony. Where did he get that information if not from the hearing?
That means Ripley and the board knew about the location since they had access to the same deposition and her story, but for some weird reason Ripley didn't refer to it until the end of the hearing.
QuoteShe brings up the point of looking for the alien ship after is concluded and the file is closed; in short, when it's already too late and the investigation is closed.
The meeting was 3.5 hours lol we only saw the last 5 minutes or so.
You have no idea what was said during that time. You're saying ripley should have requested the investigation before they closed the file, but how do you know she didn't? Her, cornering van leuwen about it, doesn't mean it's the first and only time she had mentioned it, but it was the first situation where she could pry an answer out of someone without just being dismissed.
QuoteI explained each of my points clearly. If there's anything that you did not understand, then let me know, and I'll give you a simpler explanation.
Nah
Quote from: SiL on Oct 29, 2022, 07:05:16 AMBecause I need @Local Trouble to love me again:
Quote from: ralfy on Oct 29, 2022, 02:14:34 AMIf he had been working by himself, then that would mean that he was the only one who had access to the location, or he guessed it.
He was the only one who thought it was worth checking out.
If Van Leuwen requested it be checked out, it would be a huge security situations, as Burke says. But from Van Leuwen's perspective, Ripley wasn't credible -- the shuttle contained no sign of the Alien and the colony on the planetoid had been living there peacefully for decades. So why waste everyone's time and effort on it? She'd been asleep for 57 years, she was suffering PTSD and side-effects of long hypersleep.
Is it the right thing to have done?
Hell no, it's super irresponsible.
Does that mean he didn't do it?
Also no.
"Someone didn't do their job properly" is a perfectly valid explanation. We see it all the time in real life; investigations completely ruined because someone in charge didn't bother checking one piece of evidence that would've solved everything.
Van Leuwen decided Ripley was crazy based on everything else and didn't feel the need to be any more thorough about it. It doesn't need to go further than that.
Actually, Ripley also thought the same, which is why he asked van Leuwen to check out the rock. The problem is that she asked him to "just check out LV-426" after the the file is closed. That means the investigation is concluded.
Your next point implies that van Leuwen also knew about the location. But in the hearing he states that the flight recorder only states that the ship landed and then resumed course. No mention is made of the location of the landing. Had it been mentioned, then Ripley would have told them to check the location to confirm her story, and she would have been told about the colony. That would contradict what happened after the hearing as depicted in the movie.
Remember, the only piece of evidence that could prove Ripley's story is the location of the landing site, and that's likely not an estimated grid reference because they were homing in on transmission from a beacon. And yet the conclusion of the investigation and the dialogue right after it shows that even Ripley didn't bother to raise that point.
To recap,
Van Leuwen states that the logs only show that the ship landed and resumed course.
If the same logs state the location of the landing site, then Ripley would have told them to suspend the hearing and investigate the landing site first, as that's the only thing in the log that can support her story.
But that didn't happen because the hearing concludes that Ripley's story isn't true (except the part that her ship landed and resumed course).
Ripley then decides to ask them to check the rock for the alien ship AFTER the hearing is concluded. She's told that there's no need to do that because a colony had been there for two decades and didn't report on such a thing.
She accepts that, not having the common sense to note the colony didn't report on seeing the derelict because they had not been able to go to that specific site.
Later, Burke decided to do exactly that, give the grid reference to the colony and ask them to investigate. But that means that he had gotten the information from the hearing, which meant that Ripley and the board also had the same information, and that would have negated the points I raised above.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 29, 2022, 09:30:56 AMAlso also:
The chronology of the film supports Burke acting alone.
Ripley arrives
Inquest
Burke sends colonists
Shit happens
He was in the room when Van Leuwen said he wasn't going to check the planet. Given the directors cut, that's exactly when he decided to check himself.
For Burke to act alone, Ripley would have lacked common sense to require the board to investigate the location and thus prove her story. And if van Leuwen and the board also knew the location, that that would have meant they didn't bother to do what Burke did, which makes no sense as they would have made a lot of moolah from revenues gained from acquisition of alien artifacts and organism.
Quote from: Engineer on Oct 30, 2022, 01:30:58 AMQuoteShe brings up the point of looking for the alien ship after is concluded and the file is closed; in short, when it's already too late and the investigation is closed.
The meeting was 3.5 hours lol we only saw the last 5 minutes or so.
You have no idea what was said during that time. You're saying ripley should have requested the investigation before they closed the file, but how do you know she didn't? Her, cornering van leuwen about it, doesn't mean it's the first and only time she had mentioned it, but it was the first situation where she could pry an answer out of someone without just being dismissed.
QuoteI explained each of my points clearly. If there's anything that you did not understand, then let me know, and I'll give you a simpler explanation.
Nah
I'm talking about the discussion between Ripley and van Leuwen AFTER the hearing. Here's a recap:
The board concludes that Ripley's story cannot be proven, but decided not to penalize her for destruction of company property. Instead, her flight license is revoked, and she has to undergo periodic psych evaluation. In short, they consider her mentally disturbed.
Ripley then asks van Leuwen, again AFTER the hearing and the board closes the file, to "just investigate LV-426". Van Leuwen dismisses her, saying that they don't have to because they've had a colony there for decades and they never saw an alien ship. Ripley is surprised because she didn't know that there was a colony there.
Why is she surprised? Because the presence of a colony was never discussed during the hearing. Why wasn't it discussed? Because they never talked about the issue of the location of the landing. Get it? Had Ripley raised the location of the landing DURING the hearing, which is the only evidence available that could have proven her point, then van Leuwen would have talked about the colony, and she would have then been informed about it throughout.
BTW, she was dismissed by van Leuwen in that scene. Why? Because her requests come too late: the hearing has been concluded.
Thus,
Van Leuwen states that the flight recorder only mentions that Ripley's ship lands and then resumes courses. Had it also recorded the location of the landing, then she would have raised that during the hearing, and then would have heard about the presence of the colony from van Leuwen. Instead, she hears it for the first time AFTER the hearing, which means the point of the location of the landing is never discussed.
And yet Burke knows the location. Where did he get that information? If it came from the hearing, then that would have contradicted what took place during the hearing and after as depicted in the movie. If it didn't come from the hearing, and that supports what happened during the hearing (i.e., they never talk about the location because they had no info on it) but it also means that Burke guessed the location. LOL.
Quote from: ralfy on Oct 30, 2022, 01:39:15 AMAnd if van Leuwen and the board also knew the location, that that would have meant they didn't bother to do what Burke did, which makes no sense as they would have made a lot of moolah from revenues gained from acquisition of alien artifacts and organism.
Ah, I think I see the problem: ralfy still thinks "the board" was all Weyland-Yutani. He doesn't know they were ICC, ECA, feds, insurance reps, etc. He doesn't know that Burke
was the company rep there.
@ralfy Van Leuwen did
not work for Weyland-Yutani. He was just an Interstellar Commerce Commission representative presiding over the inquest. A government bureaucrat. He didn't stand to make any "moolah" from the Alien.
I think I have nothing more to add, and since I'm just repeating the same points to others who can't comprehend them, then I'll end with an imagined revision of the main story that implicitly reveals its flaws but also fixes them:
The only thing they recover is the flight recorder of the Nostromo that was uploaded to the lifeboat computer. During the hearing, they note that it reveals the location of the landing site, etc. No other logs were recovered from the Nostromo.
Since that's the only piece of evidence that can support her claims, Ripley asks them to investigate the location. She's told that there's a colony on the rock that can do that, and she asks them not instruct the colony not to enter the ship.
They do so, and the Jordens find the ship but because of greed the father enters it and gets infected.
The colony reports the finding to the company and requests for help repeatedly. They also report on the facehuggers, etc., until comms go down. Fearing the worst, the board reconvenes and mentions all of these to Ripley, stating that it wasn't their fault: the wildcat team didn't follow their instructions and get infected. They now ask Ripley for help because there might be some problems reported by the colony in final transmissions about the aliens that aren't seen in her deposition, and it appears that there are survivors. They intend to send an armed rescue expedition with Burke as the company and gov't representative and to work with her, the expedition adviser. In return, they will drop all potential liabilities against her concerning the Nostromo, etc.
Ripley fears that they will also use the rescue mission to retrieve alien organisms and artifacts, and thus risk infection for the team, but she wants to rescue any surviving colonists, if only to find some redemption from recurring nightmares and seeing no meaning in her life (with no surviving loved ones). In any case, she remains wary of Burke.
Because they have to move quickly, they could only scrounge up the military resources depicted in the film, including a greenhorn lieutenant (their actual commander was incapacitated due to an accident), which they hope to compensate with Alpone's experience, Ripley's advise, and any other information needed about the colony, etc., from Burke. Also, the marine team specializes in "bug hunts" but several are about to complete their tour of duty, which is why they appear not to take this mission seriously.
Given that, much of the remainder of the movie stays the same, except for the part where Ripley finds out about Burke's comms with the colony. That's no longer needed.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 30, 2022, 01:56:33 AMQuote from: ralfy on Oct 30, 2022, 01:39:15 AMAnd if van Leuwen and the board also knew the location, that that would have meant they didn't bother to do what Burke did, which makes no sense as they would have made a lot of moolah from revenues gained from acquisition of alien artifacts and organism.
Ah, I think I see the problem: ralfy still thinks "the board" was all Weyland-Yutani. He doesn't know they were ICC, ECA, feds, insurance reps, etc. He doesn't know that Burke was the company rep there.
@ralfy Van Leuwen did not work for Weyland-Yutani. He was just an Interstellar Commerce Commission representative presiding over the inquest. A government bureaucrat. He didn't stand to make any "moolah" from the Alien.
Actually, I never thought that. That's why I kept referring to company *and* government. Even the colony and atmosphere-scrubbing operation is a joint project between the two. This also explains why an armed expedition involving military resources appeared in the movie.
The "moolah" involves bioweapons and whatever could be gained from gain of function, from which the company would earn and the military (which is part of the government) would exploit, and where everyone along the food chain, from Ripley and her crew, the Jordens, Burke, and so on would get their respective cuts. This doesn't include the various investors who could earn from the same, not to mention divisions that could find any advanced tech from the derelict ship useful, as well as insurers that could cover the increased commerce stemming from such finds. ;D
The reason why several reps from company and government as well as from others, like insurers, are in the board is because a company (and likely insured) ship and its cargo was destroyed, and there are claims of aliens. The problem is that the location of the landing, and thus of the alien ship, is assumed to have been been given in the deposition and/or the flight recorder, and thus raised in the hearing. Where else would Burke get his info? But the immediate aftermath of the hearing shows that that important piece of evidence was not raised.
Thus, the idea of a "security situation" becomes irrelevant because even others in the board would have known about that piece of info, and which is why it's highly improbable that Burke would have acted alone. At the same time, because a joint project is involved, then government would have worked closely with its partner, W-Y, in investigating the matter further. Hence, an expedition involved a company official and military personnel, etc.
We know checking the location wasn't raised during the inquiry because Ripley doesn't call back to it when confronting Van Leuwen. It's entirely possible the incredibly stressed, PTSD-ridden person who has been affected by hypersleep maybe didn't think to mention it while being grilled on the validity of her story. It's not the only thing she doesn't bring up; when Van Leuwen mentions that the investigation team found no trace of the Alien, she didn't respond with the grappling gun being jammed in the door, for example -- a detail that's present in the set at the start of the film.
But none of that means everyone else involved didn't consider it and dismiss the idea in light of all of the other lack of evidence. Ripley mentioning it doesn't magic it into existence, and it's clear the flight recorder and its data have been checked prior to the hearing.
They could have checked the location, but they didn't think it was worth it for a 57 year old cold case where there was no other reason to assume the story was credible.
The film is clear about what happens. If you think it's dumb, then that's all there is to it -- you think it's dumb, end of discussion. The film has no obligation to satisfy what you think is or isn't sensible.
That doesn't mean things don't happen how the film says they happen.
QuoteI'm talking about the discussion between Ripley and van Leuwen AFTER the hearing.
I know, that's my point lol
You don't know anything about what was said before, and because of that, all of these assumptions you're making about the information being shared are exactly that. Assumptions. Speculation. So, when you're asking something like "how did they know *this* when they never mentioned it during the meeting?" My point is, how do you know it was never mentioned/discussed in the 3.5 hours that took place off screen? You don't. None of us do. It was off screen.
QuoteAh, I think I see the problem: ralfy still thinks "the board" was all Weyland-Yutani. He doesn't know they were ICC, ECA, feds, insurance reps, etc. He doesn't know that Burke was the company rep there.
I thought someone already brought this detail up lol
It's worth mentioning that it's Ralfy himself who brought up earlier that all of the information covered in the hearing would have been established before the actual hearing.
QuoteThe catch is that Ripley provided a deposition, which means the company and government were informed about what happened to Ripley even before the hearings began. That involves a lot of time, more than enough for the suits to contact the colony after receiving the initial report from Ripley.
So Ripley would've mentioned the landing. The hearing makes it clear they checked the flight recorder and saw, yes, the ship landed on the planet she said it did.
What he's choosing to ignore is the fact the film makes it clear that they decided it wasn't worth checking the landing site for a variety of reasons.
Burke would've had the information available to him. He would've seen that nobody else decided to check it, hence checking it himself.
Quote from: ralfy on Oct 30, 2022, 02:29:20 AMI'm just repeating the same points to others who can't comprehend them
Jesus Christ lol.
Delusional.
The irony is so thick you can cut with a butter knife
Quote from: SiL on Oct 30, 2022, 06:11:32 AMWe know checking the location wasn't raised during the inquiry because Ripley doesn't call back to it when confronting Van Leuwen. It's entirely possible the incredibly stressed, PTSD-ridden person who has been affected by hypersleep maybe didn't think to mention it while being grilled on the validity of her story. It's not the only thing she doesn't bring up; when Van Leuwen mentions that the investigation team found no trace of the Alien, she didn't respond with the grappling gun being jammed in the door, for example -- a detail that's present in the set at the start of the film.
But none of that means everyone else involved didn't consider it and dismiss the idea in light of all of the other lack of evidence. Ripley mentioning it doesn't magic it into existence, and it's clear the flight recorder and its data have been checked prior to the hearing.
They could have checked the location, but they didn't think it was worth it for a 57 year old cold case where there was no other reason to assume the story was credible.
The film is clear about what happens. If you think it's dumb, then that's all there is to it -- you think it's dumb, end of discussion. The film has no obligation to satisfy what you think is or isn't sensible.
That doesn't mean things don't happen how the film says they happen.
Exactly! Not only that, but had they raised it, then she would contested their refusal to investigate the landing site.
The claim that she was suffering from PTSD, etc., is questionable because she appeared very logical and even methodical during the hearing, countering each argument that board members raised. The irony is that none of the points mattered because they could not be proven by Ripley without the ship's logs. The only thing that could--the location of the ship--was not raised by the board or Ripley at all.
Van Leuwen even mistakenly implies that the flight recorder--which for some reason mentions only that the ship landed and resumed course--should have contained records on encountering the hostile organism. But flight recorders don't that: they only record only vessel movement.
I'm not sure about the grappling gun, but I assume that had it jammed the door, then that would have left the latter partially open, and let out oxygen. I can only guess that after frying the alien, she would have reopened the door to release the gun and thus let the alien drift off in space, then made sure that the door was closed correctly.
The idea of not investigating a "cold case" is ridiculous as Ripley would have required it to prove her story and thus avoid penalty. In addition, this is a company which, with government, had been exploring hundreds of worlds, and looking for ways to exploit their resources and anything that they could find. That's why they were very keen on forcing the Nostromo crew to investigate such matters and to be penalized with forfeiture of benefits if they refuse to do so; in fact, it's even clearly stated in their contracts. That's also why some of the crew insisted that if they find something profitable then they'd get a cut; so did the Jordens, which implicitly accepted the job because they guessed that there was probably something valuable in the area, and that they would profit from it in part.
The question for the company would have involved whether to ask the colony to send a team to investigate the location, which given your reasoning would have been known not only by Burke but also by Ripley and the rest of the board, or to wait and send a better-prepared team.
Quote from: Kradan on Oct 30, 2022, 10:39:48 PMThe irony is so thick you can cut with a butter knife
Or a pinky finger
Quote from: Engineer on Oct 30, 2022, 06:55:45 AMQuoteI'm talking about the discussion between Ripley and van Leuwen AFTER the hearing.
I know, that's my point lol
You don't know anything about what was said before, and because of that, all of these assumptions you're making about the information being shared are exactly that. Assumptions. Speculation. So, when you're asking something like "how did they know *this* when they never mentioned it during the meeting?" My point is, how do you know it was never mentioned/discussed in the 3.5 hours that took place off screen? You don't. None of us do. It was off screen.
QuoteAh, I think I see the problem: ralfy still thinks "the board" was all Weyland-Yutani. He doesn't know they were ICC, ECA, feds, insurance reps, etc. He doesn't know that Burke was the company rep there.
I thought someone already brought this detail up lol
No, that's not your point. You kept insisting that what we saw was only the last few minutes of the hearing, whcih means from that we wouldn't be able to tell whether or not the location of the ship was discussed. What I was talking about was Ripley and van Leuwen's conversation after the hearing, which revealed that they didn't.
In fact, you're making the same mistake in this post. LOL.
As for your last point, I did that: I kept referring to the company and government, remember?
QuoteNo, that's not your point. You kept insisting that what we saw was only the last few minutes of the hearing, whcih means from that we wouldn't be able to tell whether or not the location of the ship was discussed. What I was talking about was Ripley and van Leuwen's conversation after the hearing, which revealed that they didn't.
In fact, you're making the same mistake in this post. LOL.
Lmmfao
Uhmkay
Quote from: SiL on Oct 30, 2022, 07:04:11 AMIt's worth mentioning that it's Ralfy himself who brought up earlier that all of the information covered in the hearing would have been established before the actual hearing.
QuoteThe catch is that Ripley provided a deposition, which means the company and government were informed about what happened to Ripley even before the hearings began. That involves a lot of time, more than enough for the suits to contact the colony after receiving the initial report from Ripley.
So Ripley would've mentioned the landing. The hearing makes it clear they checked the flight recorder and saw, yes, the ship landed on the planet she said it did.
What he's choosing to ignore is the fact the film makes it clear that they decided it wasn't worth checking the landing site for a variety of reasons.
Burke would've had the information available to him. He would've seen that nobody else decided to check it, hence checking it himself.
So, let's ignore van Leuwen's statements about the flight recorder reporting only basic facts (the ship landed and then resumed course; no landing location is indicated), the fact that the board concludes that Ripley's story isn't true because it can't be proven (which means they know the location but Ripley chooses not to raise that issue), that Ripley is shocked to find out after the investigation is closed that there's a colony on the rock (she would have known had she raised the issue during the hearing, as van Leuwen would have explained to her that they don't have to investigate the site due the presence of the colony), and that Ripley accepts van Leuwen's excuse even though it makes no sense (the colony didn't find the ship because they never investigated the area where it landed).
Thus, the board knew about the location but didn't bother to pursue the matter because wrongly thought that the colony did search the area but found nothing. It turns out that they never went to that area, and thus gave no reports about finding an alien ship.
Ripley also knew about the location but didn't bother to force the board to investigate the matter, especially given the fact that that's the only piece of evidence she has to prove her point and thus avoid penalty. Because of that, she's penalized, anyway.
Burke know about the location but for some reason was the only who thought of investigating the site. He continued working alone because he managed to convince the military to lend him a heavily armed unit and vessel to, uh, fixed a "[downed] transmitter". And the military agreed. LOL.
After that, he manages to fool Ripley into joining the expedition. That's the same Ripley who remained distrustful of the company and the government, thinking that their only intent is to profit from such finds, even if it means sacrificing others. After all, that's what happened during the first movie, right? But she's certain that company rep Burke can be trusted, as he promised her that they're only there to rescue colonists and fix transmitters.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Oct 30, 2022, 10:38:36 PMQuote from: ralfy on Oct 30, 2022, 02:29:20 AMI'm just repeating the same points to others who can't comprehend them
Jesus Christ lol.
Delusional.
That's what Ripley said when she suddenly discovered that there was a colony on the rock. Apparently, it was never mentioned during the hearing. LOL.
Quote from: Kradan on Oct 30, 2022, 10:39:48 PMThe irony is so thick you can cut with a butter knife
I'll say. Maybe you guys need another "hero" to save you. LOL.
Quote from: Engineer on Oct 31, 2022, 01:58:33 AMQuoteNo, that's not your point. You kept insisting that what we saw was only the last few minutes of the hearing, whcih means from that we wouldn't be able to tell whether or not the location of the ship was discussed. What I was talking about was Ripley and van Leuwen's conversation after the hearing, which revealed that they didn't.
In fact, you're making the same mistake in this post. LOL.
Lmmfao
Uhmkay
Another one bites the dust.
Quote from: ralfy on Oct 31, 2022, 02:12:22 AMBurke know about the location but for some reason was the only who thought of investigating the site. He continued working alone because he managed to convince the military to lend him a heavily armed unit and vessel to, uh, fixed a "[downed] transmitter". And the military agreed. LOL.
Burke didn't have to convince the military of anything. The colony was under the governance of the ECA. It's their
job to send aid when something goes wrong. Burke ostensibly went along to represent the company because it had a financial stake there.
QuoteAnother one bites the dust.
You're in the minority here lol
At some point, you've got to stop and think "is it just me?" Because it is lol
Aliens: An ANAL-sis
I'm increasingly convinced he didn't actually watch the movie and is operating under the internet law that the fastest way to find the correct answer is to post the wrong one and wait for someone to correct you.
I'd say it's just an elaborate troll except the coming back years later and super high effort posts make it... extremely unlikely.
A really elaborate troll.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 31, 2022, 02:25:39 AMQuote from: ralfy on Oct 31, 2022, 02:12:22 AMBurke know about the location but for some reason was the only who thought of investigating the site. He continued working alone because he managed to convince the military to lend him a heavily armed unit and vessel to, uh, fixed a "[downed] transmitter". And the military agreed. LOL.
Burke didn't have to convince the military of anything. The colony was under the governance of the ECA. It's their job to send aid when something goes wrong. Burke ostensibly went along to represent the company because it had a financial stake there.
For Burke to act alone, then he would have to convince the military without the company knowing about it. The fact that you point out in your fourth sentence that Burke does so representing the company supports by argument.
Also, what type of "aid"? If it's simply a "[downed] transmitter," then the military wouldn't be needed. If it's concern over what Ripley reported, then they would send not only an armed group but one that does "bug hunts." Which is exactly what happened.
Thus, Burke wasn't acting alone, and likely not the only one who was beginning to believe Ripley.
Quote from: Engineer on Oct 31, 2022, 02:30:58 AMQuoteAnother one bites the dust.
You're in the minority here lol
At some point, you've got to stop and think "is it just me?" Because it is lol
Too bad a debate doesn't work on what the majority think.
Next time, come prepared. Otherwise, you'll just end up with one-liners and LOLing.
QuoteToo bad a debate doesn't work on what the majority think.
Next time, come prepared. Otherwise, you'll just end up with one-liners and LOLing.
That is correct. Debates don't work off of a majority. But this isn't a debate. And when the majority are telling you that you misinterpreted the movie, maybe you should consider that as a possibility.
Yeah this is all kinda... dumb.
Ralph is either taking the worlds longest piss or he's just massively misinterpreted the film somehow.
Either way further discussion won't change his course of action.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Nov 01, 2022, 02:35:07 AMYeah this is all kinda... dumb.
Ralph is either taking the worlds longest piss or he's just massively misinterpreted the film somehow.
Either way further discussion won't change his course of action.
Agreed.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 31, 2022, 10:20:20 AMI'm increasingly convinced he didn't actually watch the movie and is operating under the internet law that the fastest way to find the correct answer is to post the wrong one and wait for someone to correct you.
We watched the same movie, and everything that I've been explaining to you comes from the same. What I'm doing is also not "the fasted way to find the correct answer" but the slowest, as I have to explain everything to you in great detail and correct you each time. That's why my messages are long and detailed.
The problem is that you can't counter any of my arguments. Let's recap them:
Van Leuwen points out that the flight recorder mentions only the fact that the Nostromo landed and resumed course. There is no reference to the landing location. In addition, he is trying to look for entries about encountering the hostile organism in a flight recorder, which is not designed to do that. Ironically, Ripley, who is a flight officer and knows how flight recorders work, does not question that point.
Why is it important to note the point that there is no reference to a landing location? Because flight recorders are supposed to record that. Ironically, Ripley, who is a flight officer, didn't notice that, either.
Next, he refers to the lifeboat flight recorder. That means it was operating at the same time as the Nostromo flight recorder?
Ripley tries to go to the next point, that she had picked up an alien organism. Van Leuwen reports that they searched the lifeboat and found no traces of it. Someone in the thread pointed out that the grappling gun, but that would have left the door ajar and let out oxygen, so it was likely gone together with the alien. That means van Leuwen is correct.
Ripley then points out that they had homed in on its beacon, which means the next point would have been the location of that beacon, as that's the implication of "homing in". But Ripley ignores that, which is highly illogical because that appears to be the only thing that can prove her story, and instead talks about what they saw in the ship, what happened when they were infected, etc., all of which is pointless because it looks like all they have is the flight recorder, which obviously doesn't record that. And that's how the board finishes her off.
After the short break where Burke consoles Ripley, the hearing concludes that Ripley acted questionably, which means that she couldn't prove her story, but that in place of criminal charges she will have to undergo psych evaluation and have her license suspended. In short, they think she's mentally disturbed and made up her story.
Given what happened after the hearing, the board is right. But the reason is because they didn't talk about the location. Why's that. Because after the file is closed (that means the investigation is concluded and Ripley has been penalized; wait, the hearing became a trial?) it's only then that Ripley approaches van Leuwen and asks him, "Why won't you just check out LV-426?," he brushes her off, saying that they don't have to do that, as they've had people on that rock for some time. A shocked Ripley asks, "What are you talking about? What people?" Van Leuwen starts talking about the colony that never reported on seeing an alien ship.
In short, Ripley only knew about the colony AFTER the hearing. This also proves that they never talked about the location of the ship or the beacon which the Nostromo homed in because if they did, then she would have asked that question DURING the hearing, and would have known about the colony from van Leuwen.
In addition, whether during or after, Ripley would have, using common sense, argued that not seeing the alien ship can take place when one doesn't go to the location where that ship is located. Whether van Leuwen gave that weak excuse intentionally or not, Ripley accepts it readily. More important, it's mentioned AFTER the hearing, which means it has no bearing on an investigation that was already completed.
So, Ripley is stuck with low-paying work and constant monitoring from a company that she obviously detests, and all because of a bizarre hearing, and is then approached by Burke, asking for help because they've lost contact with the colony. He wants to send in an armed expedition even though he thinks it might just be a "[downed] transmitter" that's the problem, which is pointless because he and Gorman appease Ripley that by saying that they're coming in heavily armed and ready, after which Ripley ironically accepts his offer even though he belongs to the same group that "[threw her] to the wolves." So, what's that "second chance"? To be thrown to the wolves a third time, either from failure of that mission or when she gets her flight status back and have the same wolves pick up her contract.
Later, Ripley finds out that Burke was going to screw them because he had contacted the colony, which is why they got infected. Where did Burke get the landing location when it wasn't mentioned in the hearing? If it was mentioned in the hearing, then why didn't Ripley contest that point, which is why she lost her case and was penalized? If it didn't come from the lifeboat recorder, then where did the location info come from?
Some add that Burke was acting alone. If that's true, then why was he referring to a cut? Who gets the rest? Does this have something to do with the company and government owning mineral rights on the rock, which implies that they own everything that's found on it, and anyone who discovers it gets a cut?
If he got the location from the hearing, then that means everyone else, from Burke to the other board members, also got it. If so, then why didn't Ripley raise that point, as it's the ONLY piece of evidence that would have saved her hide? Why didn't anyone else in the board do what Burke did? And how did Burke, who is assumed to have worked alone, manage to get the military to provide him with resources behind the back of the company?
Why are they coming in armed even though they received no word from the colony, as Burke claims? Why would the military even agree to provide an armed group given the same?
All of these imply that it's highly illogical that Burke acted alone or that they received no word from the colony. It's more likely that he wasn't and they received some details from the latter before aliens destroyed systems to make the comms inoperable, which is why the military was sent it. But this also confirms Ripley's story and negates the conclusion made by the board. Again, using common sense, Ripley could have thought about that, and demanded more for Burke, but didn't. If any, her attempt in questioning Burke and going against him comes too late.
Now, I don't know about weird reasons like PTSD and sleep deprivation, but from what I gathered throughout the hearing Ripley sounded straightforward and assertive, so those reasons make no sense. What's clear, though, is that she committed several errors (as shown above), which is why she lost her case and ended up getting screwed again by joining an expedition that wasn't prepared, and let by a company that, contrary to the ridiculous belief that it has forgotten the idea of gain of function, appears to have been actively engaged in it throughout.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Nov 01, 2022, 02:35:07 AMYeah this is all kinda... dumb.
Ralph is either taking the worlds longest piss or he's just massively misinterpreted the film somehow.
Either way further discussion won't change his course of action.
Feel free to explain why, and then I'll counter your arguments.
Go ahead. No need to be shy.
Ralfy needs to rewatch the film without assuming the movie is lying to him and actually listen to what's said.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Oct 31, 2022, 10:45:23 AMI'd say it's just an elaborate troll except the coming back years later and super high effort posts make it... extremely unlikely.
That's right: a troll gives only low-effort posts, include one-line snide remarks. Others, though, aren't trolls, but unable to win an argument ends up giving one-liners with LOLs and "whatever."
FWIW, I came back because I saw the movie again recently, and then considered these additional points, which I decided to share in this thread which I believe is dedicated to such discussions. Or am I mistaken?
One more thing: I'm very much an
Alien franchise fan, having seen the first one in the theaters when it was released (don't ask how; LOL). So I take these discussions seriously, although I don't want to antagonize others.
Last point: I've been receiving a lot of heat for what I said about
Prey in another thread, a movie that I found annoying. I hope this is not one of those "fanboi" forums, where members who think any negative view of what they're crazy about is "bait".
Quote from: SiL on Nov 01, 2022, 03:08:29 AMRalfy needs to rewatch the film without assuming the movie is lying to him and actually listen to what's said.
Actually, I did, which is why I am re-posting here. I'm also guided by the movie script.
QuoteLast point: I've been receiving a lot of heat for what I said about Prey in another thread, a movie that I found annoying. I hope this is not one of those "fanboi" forums, where members who think any negative view of what they're crazy about is "bait".
The heat you've been receiving at the other thread isn't because of your opinion of the film; it's because of your use of the term "Mary sue" and "gary Stu." Those terms have been overused lately, much like the term "woke," and it is generally used for a specific criticism in modern times that is less about the content of the film and more about the political-beliefs of the person who is commenting.
My advice (and this is genuine advice) avoid using terms that have become politically divisive. Share your criticisms without the jargon that could be misconstrued as politically-charged and you won't get that sort of heat.
No they really do just go hard on you in the Prey section if you don't like the movie.
Like sure, his use of politically charged terms doesn't help, but removing them won't stop people getting reaaal defensive.
@ralfy Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 08, 2014, 09:35:50 PMThe way Burke phrased it, it sounded like it was someone else at the company who agreed to pick up Ripley's flight contract. Maybe they did it at Burke's behest with no questions asked. I don't know. I'm not saying that whoever did it was in on it. If anyone was in on it to any degree, I'd say it was someone in the bioweapons division who was expecting a specimen of "something interesting."
The company didn't have free rein over the colony. They owned a lot of the assets there and employed a lot of the settlers, but the colony itself was governed by the ECA.
I think you and the rest of us have different definitions of Burke working alone.
The fact that the ECA sent the USCM means they thought there
might be something to Ripley's story after all, so they dispatched a military force and briefed them on the possibility of a "xenomorph" as a precaution. It would have been negligent of them to do otherwise at that point. Burke didn't need to convince them to do this and none of it requires a conspiracy.
Ralfy seems under the impression that when we say "working alone" we literally mean running the whole bioweapons division or something? I can't work it out.
Burke is working alone trying to get Aliens back to the Company so he can get a big payday from them. Nobody else is in on what he's doing because that would undermine his claim, something he goes to lengths to avoid.
He's small fry looking for his break and he thinks Ripley is it.
I'd imagine the higher-ups at Weyland-Yutani wouldn't be too impressed with Burke's actions either. Even if they didn't care about the lives of the colonists, he set into a motion a series of events that cost them their entire investment on LV-426.
If he had "made a major security situation out of it," there's no reason to believe that the company wouldn't have reaped the rewards of the discovery. It'd just mean that Burke's slice of the pie would have been significantly smaller, if he got anything at all.
He's a director, so he might get a nice end of year bonus. But clearly whatever he'd get through official channels pales to what he thinks he'd get circumventing his bosses.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Nov 01, 2022, 04:35:56 AM@ralfy
Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 08, 2014, 09:35:50 PMThe way Burke phrased it, it sounded like it was someone else at the company who agreed to pick up Ripley's flight contract. Maybe they did it at Burke's behest with no questions asked. I don't know. I'm not saying that whoever did it was in on it. If anyone was in on it to any degree, I'd say it was someone in the bioweapons division who was expecting a specimen of "something interesting."
The company didn't have free rein over the colony. They owned a lot of the assets there and employed a lot of the settlers, but the colony itself was governed by the ECA.
I think you and the rest of us have different definitions of Burke working alone.
The fact that the ECA sent the USCM means they thought there might be something to Ripley's story after all, so they dispatched a military force and briefed them on the possibility of a "xenomorph" as a precaution. It would have been negligent of them to do otherwise at that point. Burke didn't need to convince them to do this and none of it requires a conspiracy.
That's right. Burke didn't need to convince them because he wasn't acting alone.
Meanwhile, their decision to investigate the matter contradicts their conclusion that Ripley story's can't be proven. For that conclusion to be made, they would not have discussed the location of the alien ship during the hearing (which is the only thing that could have proven Ripley's case) because Ripley only raised it to van Leuwen after the hearing. The reason why we're sure about this is because it's only then that Ripley is informed about the presence of the colony. Had she raised the point of the landing site during the hearing, then she would have known about colony.
Is it possible that Ripley and the board didn't talk about the location of the landing because they had no information about it? Likely not because Burke knew about it. Since there's no other place to get it except from the deposition and/or the hearing, then that meant that Ripley and the rest of the board had the same information, too, but didn't talk about it during the investigation, which is incredibly absurd because that's the only evidence that would proven Ripley's case. Everything else she says during the hearing could only be proven through ship logs which don't exist, except for flight recorder information that, according to van Leuwen, only mentions that the Nostromo landed and then resumed course.
In addition, Ripley would have probably not been surprised later by discovering that Burke had contacted the colony because the main reason why Burke asks for her help is that they've lost communication with the colony. One can argue that Burke was probably referring to something like routine communications from the colony (hence, it might just be a downed transmitter), but the fact that he asks Ripley for help, plans to come with an armed group, and assures Ripley that the penalties against her from the board would be reversed means that that's not the case. Even then, Ripley would have guessed that the colony had been wiped out and that they are mounting an expedition to recover alien artifacts and organisms.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 01, 2022, 05:16:39 AMRalfy seems under the impression that when we say "working alone" we literally mean running the whole bioweapons division or something? I can't work it out.
Burke is working alone trying to get Aliens back to the Company so he can get a big payday from them. Nobody else is in on what he's doing because that would undermine his claim, something he goes to lengths to avoid.
He's small fry looking for his break and he thinks Ripley is it.
"Working alone" means he contacted the colony on his own initiative and was able to get an armed group together without the military asking him why. That also implies that he was the only one who had information about the location of the alien ship because, as the conclusion and Ripley and van Leuwen's discussion after the hearing showed, they never talked about the location during the hearing. But that in turn contradicts the fact that Burke had access to the location info, which he could have gotten only from the hearing. That also meant that Ripley and the board knew the same info.
Quote from: ralfy on Nov 02, 2022, 02:00:46 AMIs it possible that Ripley and the board didn't talk about the location of the landing because they had no information about it?
From the board's point of view, if Ripley's story was true then the derelict's beacon would have been detected years earlier by whomever surveyed the planet for colonization.
Anyone else who detected the beacon would have been able to home in on it just like the Nostromo did, so they wouldn't even need the precise landing location. But there was no beacon, so the board had no reason to believe the rest of Ripley's story.
It wasn't until Earth mysteriously lost contact with the colony that anyone besides Burke started to take her story more seriously and at least consider it a possibility.
Don't take my word for it, though. This is from James Cameron's response to critics of Aliens on page 34 of Starlog #125 (https://ia902600.us.archive.org/28/items/starlog_magazine-125/125.pdf):
QuoteBriggs' next problem was "Why do the colonists not pick up the derelict SOS?" by which I assume he is referring to the acoustic beacon broadcasting a "warning." As some readers may know, scenes were filmed but cut from the final release version of the film which depicted the discovery of the derelict by a mom-and-pop geological survey (i.e.: prospecting) team. As scripted, they were given the general coordinates of its position by the manager of the colony, on orders from Carter Burke. It is not directly stated, but presumed, that Burke could only have gotten that information from Ripley or from the black-box flight recorder aboard the shuttle Narcissus, which accessed the Nostromo's on-board computer. When the Jorden family, including young Newt, reach the coordinates, they discover the derelict ship. Since we and the Nostromo crew last saw it, it has been damaged by volcanic activity, a lava flow having crushed it against a rock outcropping and ripped open its hull. Aside from considerations of visual interest, this serves as a justification for the acoustic beacon being non-operational.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Nov 01, 2022, 05:40:46 AMI'd imagine the higher-ups at Weyland-Yutani wouldn't be too impressed with Burke's actions either. Even if they didn't care about the lives of the colonists, he set into a motion a series of events that cost them their entire investment on LV-426.
If he had "made a major security situation out of it," there's no reason to believe that the company wouldn't have reaped the rewards of the discovery. It'd just mean that Burke's slice of the pie would have been significantly smaller, if he got anything at all.
OTOH, given the insistence of the company to require their crews to investigate anomalies, it appears that they have no qualms sacrificing space trucking crews and what might even be a basic "shake 'n' bake" project using planet engineers, and part of over three hundred worlds. It also doesn't help that even space truckers and wildcatters are willing to pay along in exchange for a nice cut.
In short, they're all generally Burkes.
About making a major security situation out of it, then that's probably also a foregone conclusion, i.e., given heavily armed marine teams that do "bug hunts" and even encounter Arcturians, whatever that means.
Russ Jorden was certainly planning to get a huge payday too. He even made a call back to the colony to verify that his claim would be honored.
Of course, that doesn't mean they'd all sacrifice each other over a percentage like Burke.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 01, 2022, 09:07:55 AMHe's a director, so he might get a nice end of year bonus. But clearly whatever he'd get through official channels pales to what he thinks he'd get circumventing his bosses.
I thought similar, and likely has more people than most imagine. He also essentially represented the company in the hearing, has access to military vessels and marine teams, and appears to be the sole individual who communicated with the colony. And that's a colony co-owned by the company and government, which as revealed in the same movie is very meticulous when it comes to monitoring things, and has mineral rights to the rock. My sense is that anything found on that rock also belongs to them, but the ones who discover it get a cut from revenues, and everyone else wages for whatever work needs to be done to acquire it.
In addition, later in the movie, after being caught Burke tells Ripley that if things work out both of them will be "set up for life."
Given these points, plus the fact that he could have only gotten the location during the hearing, which means that Ripley and the rest of the board also received the same, then it's highly unlikely that he worked alone. What's more likely is that there's a small group of people in both the company and the government that are involved, coming up with special orders requiring personnel to investigate alien organisms and materials, and each of them getting their respective cuts, which they believe will be big enough that they will be rich thanks to it. In addition, those working for them believe the same.
Finally, this idea is actually what started the ball rolling for the franchise: the company through its behavior revealing that such discoveries may lead to major revenues, and everyone else, from the Nostromo crew to the colony wildcatters, insisting that they get their cuts from the same.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Nov 02, 2022, 04:37:21 AMQuote from: ralfy on Nov 02, 2022, 02:00:46 AMIs it possible that Ripley and the board didn't talk about the location of the landing because they had no information about it?
From the board's point of view, if Ripley's story was true then the derelict's beacon would have been detected years earlier by whomever surveyed the planet for colonization.
Anyone else who detected the beacon would have been able to home in on it just like the Nostromo did, so they wouldn't even need the precise landing location. But there was no beacon, so the board had no reason to believe the rest of Ripley's story.
It wasn't until Earth mysteriously lost contact with the colony that anyone besides Burke started to take her story more seriously and at least consider it a possibility.
Don't take my word for it, though. This is from James Cameron's response to critics of Aliens on page 34 of Starlog #125 (https://ia902600.us.archive.org/28/items/starlog_magazine-125/125.pdf):
QuoteBriggs' next problem was "Why do the colonists not pick up the derelict SOS?" by which I assume he is referring to the acoustic beacon broadcasting a "warning." As some readers may know, scenes were filmed but cut from the final release version of the film which depicted the discovery of the derelict by a mom-and-pop geological survey (i.e.: prospecting) team. As scripted, they were given the general coordinates of its position by the manager of the colony, on orders from Carter Burke. It is not directly stated, but presumed, that Burke could only have gotten that information from Ripley or from the black-box flight recorder aboard the shuttle Narcissus, which accessed the Nostromo's on-board computer. When the Jorden family, including young Newt, reach the coordinates, they discover the derelict ship. Since we and the Nostromo crew last saw it, it has been damaged by volcanic activity, a lava flow having crushed it against a rock outcropping and ripped open its hull. Aside from considerations of visual interest, this serves as a justification for the acoustic beacon being non-operational.
The beacon being operational isn't necessary because flight recorders are supposed to report landing locations, and according to van Leuwen they had the lifeboat flight recorder which did report that the Nostromo landed, then resumed course.
But what happened in the movie is that the flight recorder simply reported that the Nostromo landed and then resumed course. That's it. Had it recorded the location, then Ripley would have required the board to investigate the site first before resuming the hearing. Why? Because that's the only thing that can prove her story.
And given her conversation with van Leuwen after the hearing, it appears that they didn't talk about the location during the hearing, because it's only after that that she discovers the presence of the colony.
According to Cameron, Burke got the location from either Ripley's deposition or the lifeboat recorder. But that would also mean that not only did all of them in the hearing know the same info, Ripley would have questioned the board about that, i.e., investigate the location first to confirm her story before questioning her further.
Thus, we have the ff. from the movie.
The location was known by Ripley and the board (which includes Burke) because Burke could not have gotten it from any other source. The likely source is the lifeboat flight recorder, which for some weird reason was running all the time the Nostromo was journeying.
But during the hearing, van Leuwen states that the recorder only shows that the Nostromo landed and resumed course. There is no mention where it landed, which is why Ripley had to start talking about what they encountered and what happened to them, which is pointless because there are no ship logs to support her claims. That's why the board concludes that her story can't be proven.
It's only after the investigation is closed that Ripley decides to ask van Leuwen to investigate the location; in short, she's too late. Van Leuwen dismisses her request, stating that they had a colony there for decades and it saw no ship.
Ripley is shocked to find out about the colony, which means the location had not been discussed during the hearing. If it had, then she would have not be surprised by information about the colony.
In addition, van Leuwen didn't state that they had investigated the location, only that they didn't have to because the colony there never complained. But that can also mean that they never investigated the location throughout the two decades, which is why they never reported seeing the ship.
Since several decided to raise about the discovery of the derelict ship in another thread, then I hope you don't mind if I raise them here because they involve more than just the argument that the company is "nefarious".
Without the deleted scenes, we only know that Burke sent the colonists to the ship. From his defense of his actions to Ripley, he argued that the ship might not have existed, that he didn't want to alert the Administration and create "a major security situation", and with that there would be no "exclusive rights." Thus, he caused the colonists to be infected and that was a "bad call."
Concern over "a major security situation" negates the belief that the ship might not have existed, as the former implies that one should assume that it exists.
Since the rest of the board had the same information and would also have acted on the matter, then the point of "a major security situation" becomes irrelevant. In addition, if "Administration" refers to a government agency, then there's no point in avoiding them from stepping in if the colony is a joint project of the company and of the government, and that the whole rock (i.e., if "mineral rights," or everything in and on the rock) belongs to the two partners (by "joint project" I assume that it's a private-public partnership venture).
About "exclusive rights," there can't be any for anyone who finds the ship if "mineral rights" refer to everything in and on the rock. That means everything found belongs to the company and government; those who discover them get compensation; hence, percentages not only for Burke and the Jordens but even for Ripley, as part of the Nostromo.
This leaves us with the only reason for a "bad call," which is to send a wildcat crew that decided to enter the ship, and thus get infected. This time, let's use the deleted scenes: Simpson clearly states that all they were told was to investigate a grid reference and report back what they find. He also tells Lydecker to tell the Jordens that whatever they find is theirs. I don't think that's right given mineral rights, the point that the Jordens were ordered by the company to investigate (which means they're working for the latter), that it would have been highly illogical for company and government to allow one family to gain exclusive rights to such a find, and that even Burke would be at the mercy of the same family as they would decide how much Burke would get.
Thus, the Jordens would have gotten a cut (rather than everything belonging to them), together with Burke. The rest would get wages for future operations on the alien artifacts and organisms, and most of the profits would go to the joint owners of the colony and of the rock.
The problem is that if a claim applies to just finding the ship. Given what happened in the first movie, it appears that discovery requires entering the ship and then claims may be made on what one finds inside it. That means anyone who finds the ship has to enter it in order to get a cut.
Burke and his cronies already know what to expect given what Ripley reported. It's irrelevant that they doubt Ripley's claims, because if they bother to investigate part of it in the first place, then they assume the rest. That is, if such as ship exists, then they'll have to assume that Ripley is right about eggs and facehuggers. In which case, they have to come prepared.
Thus, Burke's "bad call" involves sending in a team that's not prepared, and given what Simpon said, was not informed. Given the point that there's no rush (the colony never found the ship after twenty years on the rock) then he could have come in the next ship carrying supplies for the colony with a team of company specialists.
As for Ripley, it looks like her definition of "bad call" is different, as she implicitly points out even as early as the hearing that she wants no one near the alien ship, and that it should be destroyed. If so, then both company and government would have probably just dropped all charges, give her back pay, etc., a promotion, and so on, and then conduct the expedition without her but using the information she could provide on "disks".
Additional points for the analysis following discussions in another thread on the Sulaco.
The Sulaco and an armed contingent were sent but some still argue that they believe it only involved a downed transmitter.
In order several of the points raised earlier to be supported, then that can only mean that the transmitter went down right after the Jordens returned due to something other than infestation. That means they sent no reports on what they discovered or even distress signals, and yet managed to retrieve living and dead facehuggers, as seen in what the group found in the lab.
If the transmitter went down because the aliens overwhelmed the colony, then that means they chose not to send any reports or distress signals, or that only Burke had access to that. That makes no sense because the colony was involved in a very expensive project funded by both the company and the government, and that meant they would have access to everything about it. In which case, Burke wasn't working alone but working for the company and government top officials: they all knew what he knew. He was their point man, and in return he would get a percentage from discoveries.
That's also why Burke managed to send an armed contingent specializing in "bug hunts." He and his superiors knew what happened to the colony and needed someone like Bishop to retrieve specimens and artefacts, with the armed contingent needed to protect them. That's also why there was no support crew and more medical personnel accompanying them, as they likely believed that following Ripley's report on what happened to the Nostromo, the colony had already been overwhelmed. Any support crew they needed involved those needed to help the team get what the company and government officials wanted.
These points also support the issue of where Burke got the information on the location of the alien ship, which is what started the story of the second movie. There is no other source for getting that except for logs in Ripley's lifeboat. But that also means all of the officials in the inquest (not just Burke) and even Ripley herself would have access to the same. Given that, it's highly unlikely that Burke would have acted alone.
What's odd is that given that all of those officials would have done the same thing as Burke, which is to ask the colony to investigate the location. After all, they had a lot of money tied in the terraforming project, and would make more given such a discovery. And yet, if we are to believe that Burke acted alone, they didn't. What makes matters worse is that Ripley herself would have been privy to the same information as that would have been afforded to her so that she could defend herself. She could have argued that they investigate the location to prove or disprove her point, but she does it too late and, worse, accepts the officials' excuse that they don't have to because there's been a colony there for decades and they didn't see anything. Not only is that argument wrong and Ripley accepts it, she also didn't know that there was a colony on the rock until after the hearing and she was found guilty of making things up. She probably should have gotten a lawyer. LOL.
It gets even worse: Burke approaches her and asks for help but adds that it's probably just a downed transmitter. But they ask for her help anyway, wants to send an armed contingent, and later has her write a report for the Marines to study. In return, her flight status would be restored. If any, that reverses the conclusions given in the hearing. Did Ripley consider any of those?
Given that, here's what they should have done, i.e., to make sure that the story remains logical:
They knew the location of the alien ship and what happened to the colony. There's nothing more they could have done for the latter.
Make Burke the point man and representing company and government interests.
Just get a full brief from Ripley, unless they think they can get more from her. Drop all charges, reinstate her flight status, give her more compensation, and see if she can help. If she is needed, then leave her on the Sulaco and then contact her only for advice. Make sure that she does not sabotage the mission.
Send a combination of Marines with armed company security and technical, scientific, etc., teams. Make it clear that the security part is under military jurisdiction but anything else following Burke.
Use more than one ship and several dropships, with one group to the colony and the other to the alien ship. Do things "by the book" but assuming that the colonists have been wasted, so be methodological, e.g., cordon off certain areas, come up with fortified base camps with supply lines, secure against what Ripley was warning about, come up with redundancies, and probably use "artificial persons" with any "fear" chips turned off, as facehuggers likely won't go for them (or maybe use robots, similar to those used to enter Ripley's lifeboat at the beginning of the movie).
Where does the entertainment come in? Bring in mistakes and character flaws, just like in the movie. For example, they already did that when an unprepared wildcat crew was sent, they probably no second and backup transmitters (unless those went down, too?), sent a team that doesn't look adequate given Ripley's point that there were reportedly hundreds of eggs in the alien ship, sent only one team when they had to consider both the colony and the alien ship, a briefing from Ripley but nothing about the colony, as they had to look at the blueprints after they arrived, and from which they would have gathered connections between failed systems and nuclear power sources (!) nearby, the colony and Marines probably not transmitting any reports to the company and government after finding the facehuggers, and likely with both telling them to wait until reinforcements arrive (similar happened in the third movie), etc.
One more point: given what happened in the third movie, where they were in frequent communication with the company, then it looks like there is either inconsistent technological development or incredible levels of design and human flaws in their systems. Some examples, and partly referring to the other movies:
The Nostromo shows logs only of ship landing and location. It doesn't point out that the computer made changes in the course and that it detected distress beacons. And for a computer that's supposed to handle not only logs but automation while the crew is in cryosleep, also doesn't keep logs of what science officers are handling, or medical conditions of crew members. Meanwhile, it contains databanks of info and can even provide advice to the crew on what to do, and in some cases won't without proper authorization.
Presumably, the same computer would also be seen in the Sulaco, and probably with even more features as it's a military vessel with even more features, and decades ahead of the Nostromo. In which case, transmissions from the Marines in the colony would have been sent easily to the Sulaco, and then relayed to the company and government. That means they would have been privy to what was happening up to the point in which they found Newt and the facehuggers. That would have been more than enough to corroborate Ripley's claims. One can even argue that Ripley would have required Burke to contact the company and government immediately about that.
More important, given the point that the Marines and Burke work rationally (which should be the case as the first involves the military and the other part of a large, for-profit corporation), and they would have not hastened in their mission and waited for instructions from the company (as Burke is guaranteed of his percentage and would have wanted to see success in the mission) and government (which is how the military operates given a chain of command). Likely, they would have first called for a fortified base to be set up first outside the colony, and to bring in more ships, especially given what started all of this in the first place, which is the alien ship.
Perhaps they were rushing to save the colonists. But Ripley would have informed them given the little she got from Newt and what happened to Kane about what happened to the colonists. Also, recall that Gorman implicitly supports her because she orders the team to study her report, and the unit, too, as it specializes in "bug hunts." In which case, they could have used something like the robot that was used at the beginning of the movie that was used to check Ripley's lifeboat (remember that?). For some reason, though, salvagers use them but Marines don't: they just barge in and then see what happens.
Given that they prepared given Ripley's report, then they would have also had access to blueprints of the colony, which meant they would have known the location of things like nuclear reactors, rather than realize it after. And yet following the movie they are able to see the layout of the colony only after they land, and even then don't see that the colonists are huddled near a reactor.
As mentioned in the other thread, presumably vessels and facilities should have enough resources as well as redundancies. And yet for some weird reason the Nostromo does not have enough lifeboats for the crew (and which the crew would have realized before the journey, which means it's something they weirdly accept) and the colony does not have second and backup transmitters. With a reactor nearby, one would assume that colonists would have various shelters away from it, with various provisions and even things like transmitters, in case something goes wrong with the reactor.
In any event, all of these flaws exist to maintain the storylines of this and even the earlier movie, but they don't look believable given the reasons I raised.
Quote from: ralfy on Jan 27, 2018, 05:42:38 AMThe weird thing is that even as officials claim not to have discovered indigenous life forms in numerous worlds, the marines also referred to having to deal with "another bug hunt." Also, if the colonists were sending reports to the company even as more of their people were being killed or captured by the aliens, then all the officials had to do before sending the Sulaco was connect those reports with what Ripley said.
My theory is Weyland sent both the colonists there to be hosts and sent the marines to help collect embryos; LV-421 being basically a living lab. They sent Ripley probably hoping she'd perish and all records of the Nostromo would be wiped.
In Covenant, David basically is going to create another Hadley's Hope.
That makes no sense. Why wait decades to investigate? Why wait for Ripley -- who everyone thought was dead -- to reappear and say something?
And Weyland-Yutani doesn't send the marines, the government does.
Quote from: SiL on May 27, 2023, 07:21:23 AMThat makes no sense. Why wait decades to investigate? Why wait for Ripley -- who everyone thought was dead -- to reappear and say something?
And Weyland-Yutani doesn't send the marines, the government does.
It took decades to terraform LV-421 so that living hosts like the colonists could live there.
I don't think Weyland expected Ripley to reappear, remember she was found by a salvage crew and was drifting for 50+ years.
As for government and Weyland, I see them connected in the movies. Weyland Yutani is on all Hadley's Hope lab and etc. Goverment sends in The Marines, but Ripley says Weyland has a weapons division in Alien.
*Lv-426
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on May 27, 2023, 10:21:13 PMIt took decades to terraform LV-421 so that living hosts like the colonists could live there.
Who do you think set up the atmosphere processor?
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on May 27, 2023, 10:21:13 PMAs for government and Weyland, I see them connected in the movies. Weyland Yutani is on all Hadley's Hope lab and etc.
Weyland-Yutani is the primary employer and co-financier of the colony. Of course their logo will be on everything.
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 27, 2023, 10:43:29 PMQuote from: City Hunter Yautja on May 27, 2023, 10:21:13 PMIt took decades to terraform LV-421 so that living hosts like the colonists could live there.
Who do you think set up the atmosphere processor?
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on May 27, 2023, 10:21:13 PMAs for government and Weyland, I see them connected in the movies. Weyland Yutani is on all Hadley's Hope lab and etc.
Weyland-Yutani is the primary employer and co-financier of the colony. Of course their logo will be on everything.
I just assumed Weyland-Yutani and the government were entangled, basically symbiotic.
When it comes to LV-426, they basically are. When it comes to the deployment of military forces and how they operate, the government has the final say.
They're not even kind of the government, they just manage day to day operations. Laws are the laws.
I'd imagine there's at least one ECA rep and a colonial marshal at LV-426, neither of whom would answer to Weyland-Yutani. Nor should they.
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 27, 2023, 10:49:07 PMWhen it comes to LV-426, they basically are. When it comes to the deployment of military forces and how they operate, the government has the final say.
Understood. So govt has final say, but couldn't Weyland go rogue and try to get their "f***ing percentage,"? Wasn't that what Burke was doing?
They could try, but I can't imagine they'd be very successful. While the prospect of making millions or even billions from exploiting the alien might be an enticing temptation for them, openly violating the law and defying the government while doing so would be profoundly stupid of them.
Hence Burke trying to be sneaky about the whole thing.
Quote from: SiL on May 28, 2023, 01:02:16 AMHence Burke trying to be sneaky about the whole thing.
I just thought he was being sneaky to ensure he can get what The Company wants. Not that he was evading the Govt.
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on May 28, 2023, 01:16:21 AMI just thought he was being sneaky to ensure he can get what The Company wants. Not that he was evading the Govt.
He specifically says he didn't warn the colonists about what they might find to avoid the government stepping in.
Smuggling dangerous specimens through ICC quarantine would also qualify as evading the government.
Gotcha. But that goes back to my point, Weyland operates through sneaky folk like Burke. Or was he doing that on his own and Weyland would gladly take his specimens, but have deniability?
The latter. He's operating solo - but the company would gladly take whatever he found.
Quote from: SiL on May 28, 2023, 01:58:27 AMThe latter. He's operating solo - but the company would gladly take whatever he found.
I agree on that. Between what you and Trouble shared, that makes the most sense.
Pardon if I am slow on this, Weyland is an evil corporation got stuck in my head for many scenes that I failed to grasp the govt is separate.
Me: (https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a11ce11eb4113b1b649f08db7d18ba60)
I imagine the company wouldn't be very happy about the loss of their investment on LV-426, though. Burke may want to omit that the sequence of events leading to that outcome was set into motion by him.
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 28, 2023, 02:13:26 AMI imagine the company wouldn't be very happy about the loss of their investment on LV-426, though. Burke may want to omit that the sequence of events leading to that outcome was set into motion by him.
Very true.
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on May 28, 2023, 02:04:27 AMQuote from: SiL on May 28, 2023, 01:58:27 AMThe latter. He's operating solo - but the company would gladly take whatever he found.
I agree on that. Between what you and Trouble shared, that makes the most sense.
Pardon if I am slow on this, Weyland is an evil corporation got stuck in my head for many scenes that I failed to grasp the govt is separate.
Me: https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a11ce11eb4113b1b649f08db7d18ba60
To be fair the EU ran with the idea that WY is basically the government for decades. It's a common misconception.
Quote from: SiL on May 28, 2023, 02:40:17 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on May 28, 2023, 02:13:26 AMI imagine the company wouldn't be very happy about the loss of their investment on LV-426, though. Burke may want to omit that the sequence of events leading to that outcome was set into motion by him.
Very true.
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on May 28, 2023, 02:04:27 AMQuote from: SiL on May 28, 2023, 01:58:27 AMThe latter. He's operating solo - but the company would gladly take whatever he found.
I agree on that. Between what you and Trouble shared, that makes the most sense.
Pardon if I am slow on this, Weyland is an evil corporation got stuck in my head for many scenes that I failed to grasp the govt is separate.
Me: https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a11ce11eb4113b1b649f08db7d18ba60
To be fair the EU ran with the idea that WY is basically the government for decades. It's a common misconception.
Thanks, that makes me feel better: i so love these movies, and to know my misconception is uncommon is a boon.
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on May 27, 2023, 06:02:32 AMQuote from: ralfy on Jan 27, 2018, 05:42:38 AMThe weird thing is that even as officials claim not to have discovered indigenous life forms in numerous worlds, the marines also referred to having to deal with "another bug hunt." Also, if the colonists were sending reports to the company even as more of their people were being killed or captured by the aliens, then all the officials had to do before sending the Sulaco was connect those reports with what Ripley said.
My theory is Weyland sent both the colonists there to be hosts and sent the marines to help collect embryos; LV-421 being basically a living lab. They sent Ripley probably hoping she'd perish and all records of the Nostromo would be wiped.
In Covenant, David basically is going to create another Hadley's Hope.
Yes, that's likely, although I would have sent a wildcat team with clear instructions to just verify the existence of the alien ship without entering it because it's very hazardous to do so, etc., in return for their expected cut. If they disobey, the void the latter. And then send a team to secure the site and do things by the numbers.
As for Ripley, I'd drop all charges, reinstate her flight status and give all compensation and bonuses, and then pay her off. If for some reason she is needed for the mission, then she should stay on the Sulaco with security and technical staff.
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on May 27, 2023, 10:21:13 PMQuote from: SiL on May 27, 2023, 07:21:23 AMThat makes no sense. Why wait decades to investigate? Why wait for Ripley -- who everyone thought was dead -- to reappear and say something?
And Weyland-Yutani doesn't send the marines, the government does.
It took decades to terraform LV-421 so that living hosts like the colonists could live there.
I don't think Weyland expected Ripley to reappear, remember she was found by a salvage crew and was drifting for 50+ years.
As for government and Weyland, I see them connected in the movies. Weyland Yutani is on all Hadley's Hope lab and etc. Goverment sends in The Marines, but Ripley says Weyland has a weapons division in Alien.
Indeed. It was explained in this thread that the colony is a joint project of the company and government, and that the company and government work together towards weaponizing alien discoveries, with the first developing and monetizing and the second purchasing.
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on May 28, 2023, 12:44:57 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on May 27, 2023, 10:49:07 PMWhen it comes to LV-426, they basically are. When it comes to the deployment of military forces and how they operate, the government has the final say.
Understood. So govt has final say, but couldn't Weyland go rogue and try to get their "f***ing percentage,"? Wasn't that what Burke was doing?
Not only that, but the government could "go rogue," too, as it can gain through bioweapons, etc., developed by the country.
Also, it's percentages across the board: the truckers get their cut, and so do the wildcatters, the manager, and Burke who is in charge of the latter two, while the government gains from what's developed. It's like the current military industrial complex. I wouldn't be surprised if that served as an inspiration for W-Y.
@City Hunter Yautja as you can see Ralfy is not so receptive to having it explained to him that he didn't pay enough attention while watching the movie 😂
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on May 28, 2023, 01:33:56 AMGotcha. But that goes back to my point, Weyland operates through sneaky folk like Burke. Or was he doing that on his own and Weyland would gladly take his specimens, but have deniability?
Burke could have only been able to operate secretly if only he had access to the location of the ship, was the only one who could communicate with the colony, and could manage to commandeer a military ship and armed unit.
The problem is that the only source of the location of the ship would have been the lifeboat logs, and both company and government would also have access to that. If so, then that means they would not bother to investigate the location given van Leuwen's ridiculous excuse, and for some perplexing reason Ripley would not demand the same even as it's the only piece of evidence that she has to prove her story.
For the first, the fact that the company has a very strong policy of investigating phenomena to the point that they consider both crew and even company assets expendable contradicts van Leuwen's excuse. Add to this Ripley's point that discoveries may involve development of bioweapons, which would have made the government very interested, too. As for the view that they've never experienced encountering alien phenomena, the Marines' references to bug hunts and Arcturians show that they had encountered various species, and that would have made the need to investigate this matter even more plausible.
For the second, one wiki entry and a point raised by several in this thread shows that the colony is a joint project of the company and the government. That would have made the government even more interested, and both communicating with the colony, and through Burke. That plus the fact that Burke is intent on getting a percentage plus the source of the alien ship shows that he could not have been working alone. In addition, if he did consider that, then he would have commonsensically argued otherwise with himself as he has no means to obtain and develop technology from aliens himself, and would have operated on a rock that's likely owned by the company and government.
Third, I think it would have been unlikely for a private individual to order a military vessel with Marines to accompany him without the military and the government not knowing. Even the commander of the Marines would not move unless he received orders from higher-ups. That means top officials were definitely involved, and they made Burke their point man.
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on May 28, 2023, 02:04:27 AMQuote from: SiL on May 28, 2023, 01:58:27 AMThe latter. He's operating solo - but the company would gladly take whatever he found.
I agree on that. Between what you and Trouble shared, that makes the most sense.
Pardon if I am slow on this, Weyland is an evil corporation got stuck in my head for many scenes that I failed to grasp the govt is separate.
Me: https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a11ce11eb4113b1b649f08db7d18ba60
Why would a company and government that basically controls not just the colony but even own the rock with its mineral rights think that Burke gets everything and they get a percentage? It's the other way round: they own everything that's on the rock and Burke, the wildcatters, the truckers in the first movie, etc., get a percentage.
Quote from: ralfy on May 28, 2023, 04:57:52 AMQuote from: City Hunter Yautja on May 28, 2023, 01:33:56 AMGotcha. But that goes back to my point, Weyland operates through sneaky folk like Burke. Or was he doing that on his own and Weyland would gladly take his specimens, but have deniability?
Burke could have only been able to operate secretly if only he had access to the location of the ship, was the only one who could communicate with the colony, and could manage to commandeer a military ship and armed unit.
The problem is that the only source of the location of the ship would have been the lifeboat logs, and both company and government would also have access to that. If so, then that means they would not bother to investigate the location given van Leuwen's ridiculous excuse, and for some perplexing reason Ripley would not demand the same even as it's the only piece of evidence that she has to prove her story.
IIRC, the film tells us Ripley put the location of the derelict in her report, which was made available to the ICC/Company inquest and the Marines (Gorman mentions the report). Ripley insisted the Company check out the co-ordinates and they ignore her.
QuoteWhy would a company and government that basically controls not just the colony but even own the rock with its mineral rights think that Burke gets everything and they get a percentage? It's the other way round: they own everything that's on the rock and Burke, the wildcatters, the truckers in the first movie, etc., get a percentage.
I think we're told the rights etc go to whoever makes the discovery. Like the wild west. That's why Russ Jorden insists on investigating personally.
The idea in the original ALIEN was that the Company programmed their ships with hidden protocols to take advantage of similar extraterrestrial discoveries. The presence of Ash or any other android ensures these orders are followed, unbeknownst to the ship crews. There was no mastermind pointing to LV426 and waiting for the perfect moment to snatch up a sample of the Alien. No one in the Company knew what the Alien was, or that it was there. The idea was that these things are done automatically, and the crew left to the mercy of Mother and Ash, who take their orders to the extreme. Special Order 937 was probably coded into every ship and activated in special circumstances. The original scripts by Giler and Hill did have the Company create the Alien and try to activate a sample. Later drafts streamlined this, and shaved off some of the Company's responsibility. That's why we have this confusing situation where fans don't know what the Company wanted or what it was doing. O'Bannon himself was to have said, "You'd go crazy trying to figure out how the company set up the crew to discover the Alien" because it was always quite nebulous and changed throughout production many times.
Hope I answered some question here.
Quote from: Valaquen on May 28, 2023, 12:19:12 PMQuote from: ralfy on May 28, 2023, 04:57:52 AMQuote from: City Hunter Yautja on May 28, 2023, 01:33:56 AMGotcha. But that goes back to my point, Weyland operates through sneaky folk like Burke. Or was he doing that on his own and Weyland would gladly take his specimens, but have deniability?
Burke could have only been able to operate secretly if only he had access to the location of the ship, was the only one who could communicate with the colony, and could manage to commandeer a military ship and armed unit.
The problem is that the only source of the location of the ship would have been the lifeboat logs, and both company and government would also have access to that. If so, then that means they would not bother to investigate the location given van Leuwen's ridiculous excuse, and for some perplexing reason Ripley would not demand the same even as it's the only piece of evidence that she has to prove her story.
IIRC, the film tells us Ripley put the location of the derelict in her report, which was made available to the ICC/Company inquest and the Marines (Gorman mentions the report). Ripley insisted the Company check out the co-ordinates and they ignore her.
QuoteWhy would a company and government that basically controls not just the colony but even own the rock with its mineral rights think that Burke gets everything and they get a percentage? It's the other way round: they own everything that's on the rock and Burke, the wildcatters, the truckers in the first movie, etc., get a percentage.
I think we're told the rights etc go to whoever makes the discovery. Like the wild west. That's why Russ Jorden insists on investigating personally.
The idea in the original ALIEN was that the Company programmed their ships with hidden protocols to take advantage of similar extraterrestrial discoveries. The presence of Ash or any other android ensures these orders are followed, unbeknownst to the ship crews. There was no mastermind pointing to LV426 and waiting for the perfect moment to snatch up a sample of the Alien. No one in the Company knew what the Alien was, or that it was there. The idea was that these things are done automatically, and the crew left to the mercy of Mother and Ash, who take their orders to the extreme. Special Order 937 was probably coded into every ship and activated in special circumstances. The original scripts by Giler and Hill did have the Company create the Alien and try to activate a sample. Later drafts streamlined this, and shaved off some of the Company's responsibility. That's why we have this confusing situation where fans don't know what the Company wanted or what it was doing. O'Bannon himself was to have said, "You'd go crazy trying to figure out how the company set up the crew to discover the Alien" because it was always quite nebulous and changed throughout production many times.
Hope I answered some question here.
That's why it would have been illogical for Burke to have acted alone, as the board had the same details on the location.
To counter that, the claim is that they didn't bother, and that's it. That's illogical, too, because the company had a history of investigating such phenomena and even willing to sacrifice personnel and assets to monetize them. Add to that Ripley's point about bioweapons, which would have made the government very interested, too. In short, it's a military industrial complex, just like in current circumstances.
I think they get a percentage, not all rights, because I think "mineral rights" implies that the company and the government essentially own the rock. Any discoveries, then, lead to a percentage. That's why in the first movie the truckers are told that they would get a cut from whatever is earned, and why Ripley also refers to Burke getting his percentage.
There's another logical reason why one ends up with a percentage: the capital expenditures needed to monetize finds would be unaffordable for any individual. That would not be the case for corporations, which is why one usually ends up with a percentage of earnings, and the rest goes to those who provide labs, experts, manufacturing equipment, etc., provided by others.
Quote from: Valaquen on May 28, 2023, 12:19:12 PMThere was no mastermind pointing to LV426 and waiting for the perfect moment to snatch up a sample of the Alien. No one in the Company knew what the Alien was, or that it was there. The idea was that these things are done automatically, and the crew left to the mercy of Mother and Ash, who take their orders to the extreme. Special Order 937 was probably coded into every ship and activated in special circumstances. The original scripts by Giler and Hill did have the Company create the Alien and try to activate a sample. Later drafts streamlined this, and shaved off some of the Company's responsibility. That's why we have this confusing situation where fans don't know what the Company wanted or what it was doing. O'Bannon himself was to have said, "You'd go crazy trying to figure out how the company set up the crew to discover the Alien" because it was always quite nebulous and changed throughout production many times.
In the final film there's evidence the crew was sent out intentionally, not as a side effect of automatic processes. The ship was redirected out of its way to intercept the transmission and Ash was planted shortly before leaving.
What's nebulous is what the company knew of the transmission and what, exactly, the crew was intended to collect - the Alien, or whoever made the transmission?
I'm glad they ditched the human derelict ship and storage containers. Jeez.
Quote from: Valaquen on May 28, 2023, 12:19:12 PMIIRC, the film tells us Ripley put the location of the derelict in her report, which was made available to the ICC/Company inquest and the Marines (Gorman mentions the report). Ripley insisted the Company check out the co-ordinates and they ignore her.
The film doesn't even tell us that much. Only the special edition mentions the "grid reference" and it's never explained how Burke got it. It's our assumption that this information was obtained from the lifeboat's flight recorder, which would naturally have the coordinates of the Nostromo's landing location on LV-426. That makes more sense to me than Ripley committing those coordinates to memory.
The script has Ripley claim the recorder must have been tampered with when told it makes no mention of the Alien.
I'm not sure if they shot it but I imagine they cut it to not make Burke suspicious too early.
Based purely on the film, I'd be surprised if the company had a chance to tamper with it anyway. The ICC may have taken custody of it immediately after it was recovered. In fact, it's entirely possible that the company wasn't even told that the planet the Nostromo landed on was, in fact, LV-426. That would explain why Burke didn't tell Ripley about the colony prior to the inquest. He and Ripley may have found out about it at the same time.
Yeah I don't see how it would make sense for Burke or anyone in the Company to tamper with the recorder before the investigation. Usually when someone is found at sea they don't take them straight to their employer.
Removing the line was for the best all round.
Law enforcement agencies generally don't make a habit of sharing physical evidence with those they're investigating. Ripley made some pretty startling accusations of her own, so it's also possible that the company itself was being investigated by the ICC as well.
Quote from: Valaquen on May 28, 2023, 12:19:12 PMThere was no mastermind pointing to LV426 and waiting for the perfect moment to snatch up a sample of the Alien. No one in the Company knew what the Alien was, or that it was there. The idea was that these things are done automatically, and the crew left to the mercy of Mother and Ash, who take their orders to the extreme. Special Order 937 was probably coded into every ship and activated in special circumstances. The original scripts by Giler and Hill did have the Company create the Alien and try to activate a sample. Later drafts streamlined this, and shaved off some of the Company's responsibility. That's why we have this confusing situation where fans don't know what the Company wanted or what it was doing. O'Bannon himself was to have said, "You'd go crazy trying to figure out how the company set up the crew to discover the Alien" because it was always quite nebulous and changed throughout production many times.
That's actually one respect in which I prefer The marketed "Director's Cut" because I like the idea of it being pure happenstance and every vessel under Weyland Corporation in that timeframe having a human passing android crew member.
Unless the Nostromo was capable of near-instantaneous communication with the company when they were still ten months from Earth, Special Order 937 should have either been some pre-existing order (similar to Order 66 in Star Wars) or something that was transmitted to the Nostromo some weeks before Mother woke up the crew.
Or was sent during their stop in Thedus.
Space is large and empty in Alien, they may well have been the only ship expected to go past in a reasonable time frame.
Quote from: SiL on May 29, 2023, 08:06:14 AMOr was sent during their stop in Thedus.
I would consider that pre-existing too. Either way, I highly doubt Ash sent a transmission to Earth to inform the company that they'd obtained an alien specimen, and then the company sent Special Order 937 back to the Nostromo in response to that news. That would be one hell of a fast round-trip for FTL communication.
Oh god no. I don't buy it being shit luck or triggered during the movie.
Quote from: SiL on May 29, 2023, 02:15:17 AMQuote from: Valaquen on May 28, 2023, 12:19:12 PMThere was no mastermind pointing to LV426 and waiting for the perfect moment to snatch up a sample of the Alien. No one in the Company knew what the Alien was, or that it was there. The idea was that these things are done automatically, and the crew left to the mercy of Mother and Ash, who take their orders to the extreme. Special Order 937 was probably coded into every ship and activated in special circumstances. The original scripts by Giler and Hill did have the Company create the Alien and try to activate a sample. Later drafts streamlined this, and shaved off some of the Company's responsibility. That's why we have this confusing situation where fans don't know what the Company wanted or what it was doing. O'Bannon himself was to have said, "You'd go crazy trying to figure out how the company set up the crew to discover the Alien" because it was always quite nebulous and changed throughout production many times.
In the final film there's evidence the crew was sent out intentionally, not as a side effect of automatic processes. The ship was redirected out of its way to intercept the transmission and Ash was planted shortly before leaving.
What's nebulous is what the company knew of the transmission and what, exactly, the crew was intended to collect - the Alien, or whoever made the transmission?
I'm glad they ditched the human derelict ship and storage containers. Jeez.
I suppose I was presenting Ridley's conception of the Company and the film's events, in which Ash's assignment to the Nostromo would have been done by computer (the entire crew component was done this way) as a reaction to finding the LV426 signal (Ridley suggested probes would have picked this up and beamed the message to Company computers, triggering the events of the film). The details probably don't all pan out - but they were never going to, considering behind the scenes stuff.
Which is why this is so confusing. Things were changed when certain people left the set. Then other things were improvised as the shoot went on. Then stuff was re-edited, lines taken out, other concepts elided. There really was no concrete plan. Ridley was adamant the Company was hands-off with the situation, and that the armadas of Company-ships would have had protocols installed in case of piracy, sabotage, mishap, etc. He didn't want a moustache-twirling villain. Giler and Hill stressed the corporate conspiracy angle and really wanted the Company involved in the Alien; they even had the SOS removed in many versions of their script in '78; instead, Ash damages the Nostromo, waking up the crew. O'Bannon rubbished all of that and removed as much of Giler and Hill's stuff as he could until his own removal from set in August '78 (he was replaced with Giler, who had his own ideas). In early versions Ash is there all along, in other drafts (and the film) he and Ripley are new.
Y'know, this is probably a weird strength of the film. It's kept people talking and debating details for decades. You could ask Hill, Scott etc their opinions now and they'd probably clash. Of course, everything I said above about Ridley's conception of the Company is not present in the movie, only behind the scenes stuff, so it can be disregarded entirely. It's a tricky thing. Another prequel will probably come out and show Ash cavorting with David in 2120 or something, who knows.
I like the haziness to be honest, how much the company knows exactly about the organism itself, etc. Do all extraterrestrial organisms/specimens warrant such a priority where the crew is wholly expendable? Is that standard? Something seemed particularly special about this order though. "There is an explanation for this, you know."
The Special Order Ash adheres to from MUTHUR is not a transmission from anyone at WY. The Nostromo makes no transmissions to anyone during the events of the movie.
The Special Order is literally a fail safe coded into obviously all WY ships for use in the RARE event an anomaly resulting in "valuable" cargo is encountered. Wether this be alien life or something else.
WY as a company furthermore had nothing to do with the events of Aliens, that was all on Burke. The movie makes it clear they don't believe Ripley. Whomever (at WY) knew of any of the events in Alien, if anyone at all, has obviously passed on by the events of Aliens or has chosen to keep the information entirely classified.
Quote from: Jonjamess on May 29, 2023, 07:35:11 PMThe Special Order Ash adheres to from MUTHUR is not a transmission from anyone at WY. The Nostromo makes no transmissions to anyone during the events of the movie.
The Special Order is literally a fail safe coded into obviously all WY ships for use in the RARE event an anomaly resulting in "valuable" cargo is encountered. Wether this be alien life or something else.
WY as a company furthermore had nothing to do with the events of Aliens, that was all on Burke. The movie makes it clear they don't believe Ripley. Whomever (at WY) knew of any of the events in Alien, if anyone at all, has obviously passed on by the events of Aliens or has chosen to keep the information entirely classified.
Indeed, it was very likely already programmed in the computer long before, and known by company assets like Ash.
If they wanted to keep things classified, then that means that Burke didn't act alone, they obviously want to show Ripley that she's lying, and would use Burke as a front.
All of these were discussed previously, together with Ripley's odd behavior, e.g, she knows about the alien ship location, together with Burke and the rest of the board, but doesn't raise it during the inquiry, and then she's asked by Burke to join an armed mission even though it's supposed to be involving an downed transmitted, and could have raised that to the board as part of an appeal (which is valid given such proceedings).
She probably needed a good lawyer, who would have informed her (she was gone for five decades or so) at least about the existence of the colony and reminded her of the alien ship location in the lifeboat logs (where else would have Burke gotten the info?); never mind "Arcturians" if that was classified, if not units that are trained to go on "bug hunts".
Quote from: Necronomicon II on May 29, 2023, 01:01:09 PMI like the haziness to be honest, how much the company knows exactly about the organism itself, etc. Do all extraterrestrial organisms/specimens warrant such a priority where the crew is wholly expendable? Is that standard? Something seemed particularly special about this order though. "There is an explanation for this, you know."
From what I remember, there are two parts to it:
The crew was told that they had to investigate the phenomenon or else they lose benefits, etc. On the other hand, if they do, they were assured of a percentage of what is earned when it is monetized. If I'm not mistaken, this was in their contracts. Meanwhile, I think the contracts also required them to help those in distress, and what was involved in this case appeared to be a distress signal. I don't know what financial benefits they get from rescuing others, but I'm guessing none.
The other part is what they didn't know but for company eyes only, i.e., the crew was considered expendable.
In addition, Burke points out in the second movie that the company has a bio-weapons division. If we add that to the commonsensical point that companies believe that they can profit from not only organisms but also what might be advanced technology, and that the military can gain from both, then the following become clear:
If there's something that can be monetized, then exploit it. If the company can potentially earn more even by considering the crew expendable, then do that as well. It's similar to what's happening in some companies and governments today.
The crew was aware of this because the need to investigate distress signals, etc., was in their contracts. (Maybe it's even a government requirement.) At the same time, some of them complained and implied that if there was nothing there or it was discovered that nothing is monetizable, then they gain nothing. If it involved people who needed to be rescued, then they didn't sign up to rescue others, and such investigation would only lengthen their trip. Meanwhile, it didn't bother them that they had a lifeboat that couldn't take all of them.
Everyone gets a cut not only because they're working for a company but also because they wouldn't have the means to exploit what was found due to lack of resources. That together with the points above and earlier ones show that Burke couldn't have acted alone.
Given such, I'd say that was was shared in the films mirror circumstances today: companies firing people only because it increases their profit margin, governments seeing their own personnel, or citizens, or people of other countries, expendable for strategic gain, companies and governments exploiting technology for monetization and weaponization as part of a military industrial complex, and so on.
As long as I get my bonus. ;D
There's nothing in the movie to suggest the SO is coded into every ship and plenty to suggest the Nostromo was deliberately set up.
What is SOP is "detect signal, wake up crew". Reroute the ship to intercept the signal and trigger the automation; place science officer on board with special order to retrieve specimen.
For SO-937 to be on every ship, every single science officer employed by WY would need to be either an Android (clearly not the case) or in on the conspiracy. It would be ridiculous to leave it lying there if there was a chance someone saw it and raised the alarm to the rest of the crew.
The fact they replaced the science officer with a droid two days before they left Thedus is also, well, fishy as hell. Yes we need uh, better paper work on the mineral composition of ore, your old guy sucks.
Imagine if the special order was just standard.
"Hey, Captain? The computer's telling me you're all expendable and to bring back that fungus we found at all cost."
"It what."
"crew expendable"
"secure organism"
"special"
seems very specific
"Nostromo rerouted to new coordinates" is also part of the special order.
and no one thought to ask why the tip of the spear attached to the spear gun was acid burned dangling outside the lifeboat. it would make me a bit more lenient towards ripley's story.
off topic sorry
Pretty sure that tip is long gone in space - but the gun is still jammed in the door.
Quote from: SiL on May 30, 2023, 04:32:35 AMThere's nothing in the movie to suggest the SO is coded into every ship and plenty to suggest the Nostromo was deliberately set up.
Honestly, I don't think the film successfully supplies plenty to either of these viewpoints. Personally, I think it's a protocol hidden and spread across the 'network', waiting to be activated under extreme or special circumstances much like the Alien eggs. The film works if you imagine differently, that there's perhaps some comptroller or bean-counter somewhere urging Ash and Mother to move onward, that's fine. I just think the film is vague on these points because no one other than Ridley gave it much thought. He imagined the whole scenario to be driven by automation and a company so remote from its employees that terrible things are sanctioned without a second thought.
QuoteWhat is SOP is "detect signal, wake up crew". Reroute the ship to intercept the signal and trigger the automation; place science officer on board with special order to retrieve specimen.
I don't think that's
standard operating procedure, given Parker has to have his arm bent with withheld shares to even go. You definitely get the feeling that this situation is unusual. Lambert seems surprised when scanning the system, Parker reacts like "what?" when told they are off-course. It just doesn't seem ordinary for them. Maybe Special Order 1-936 are quite benign, who knows. "Go to gift shop, buy dipping bird."
QuoteFor SO-937 to be on every ship, every single science officer employed by WY would need to be either an Android (clearly not the case) or in on the conspiracy. It would be ridiculous to leave it lying there if there was a chance someone saw it and raised the alarm to the rest of the crew.
I don't think this is a problem we can logic in or out of the movie. Ridley's ideas often went against logic, the corporate plotline isn't made to be very intelligible or rational (look at Blade Runner; if you can tell who a replicant is by looking at their glowing eyes, why even need a Voight-Kampff machine?).
By Ridley's own word, the ship crews are left in the dark, operate in a paranoid environment, and many do feel that androids have infiltrated the crews. He has also said he imagined the crews being sorted by computer, and the human element is nil; almost completely vestigial. I don't think the Company care if the crews find out. Speaking logically, you could probably run these ships and operations without humans at all.
Quote from: Ridley ScottTo dissuade the crews from rebelling and to protect their own interests, these companies might place spies on board, or at least would make the crews believe in the presence of such spies. Gradually a legend would evolve that these people, whose identities remain unknown, are in fact robots. Furthermore, nobody would have any proof. This would reinforce legends already current among astronauts
Anyone can accept or disregard this, as it ain't in the movie. Personally, it helps paint the scene for me.
I feel Dan O'Bannon's prediction coming true:
"You will go insane trying to figure out how and why the 'company' set them up to discover the Alien." :laugh:
Quote from: Valaquen on May 30, 2023, 09:07:51 AMI don't think that's standard operating procedure, given Parker has to have his arm bent with withheld shares to even go.
He's not threatened with withheld shares as special coercion though, he's simply told what's in his employment contract.
Dallas also points out that the ship is programmed to interrupt the voyage should certain conditions arise.
It's not common, as space is vast and empty in
Alien. But it's the process.
QuoteYou definitely get the feeling that this situation is unusual. Lambert seems surprised when scanning the system, Parker reacts like "what?" when told they are off-course. It just doesn't seem ordinary for them.
Firstly, like I said above, it's rare.
Secondly, at that point Lambert expects to be home.
Thirdly, because they were rerouted as part of SO-937. They don't just happen upon the signal, they're sent to it.
We can talk about what was or wasn't intended, but what the film shows is the crew have no idea why they're so far off course, and then Ripley discovers a special order which explicitly states the ship was rerouted.
The ship waking up the crew to investigate is normal in response to intercepting a transmission. But the Nostromo only intercepts the transmission because they were redirected into it as part of their special order.
I just don't see anything in the finished film that says the SO was just sitting there.
Quote from: SiL on May 30, 2023, 08:16:12 AMPretty sure that tip is long gone in space - but the gun is still jammed in the door.
*fool hardy troll reply hat on*
but maybe just a bit of the cable left stuck in the door .....
*fool hardy troll reply hat off*
get your point.
lol
Perhaps WY did have some information on LV-426 before the events of Alien. A tip off or a scan or they detected the beacon. Then perhaps they replaced the Science Officer on the Nostromo knowing it could be re-routed to investigate this signal. And I could even buy that the Special Order was uploaded by Ash or by WY prior to the Nostromo departing.
But the fact of the matter is nobody in that movie is communicating with anyone back at Earth, WY employees or not. They are 10 months out and wouldn't be able to get instantaneous communications back and forth. So it still stands the Special Order is automated and not the instructions of an individual communicating directly with the Nostromo. And it also still stands that WY very very likely had no idea what they were sending the ship to investigate. They likely had no idea it was acid bleeding facehuggers and alien eggs. The Special Order mentioning retrieval of the lifeform and the crew being expendable is likely just one of many "predicted" or "possible" events that WY either programs into all their vessels or as I mentioned was planted when they swapped the Science Officer.
This whole WY conspiracy thing just seems to be a fan need rather than an actual plot point. There is nothing in the movies that suggests WY know anything about the Xenomorph. In Alien all we see is a generic Special Order that literally just mentions lifeform (a generic term). We know Ash is swapped in so that's the only other suspicious link we have that WY is sinister. Bit that still doesn't prove at all they have any knowledge of Xenomorphs. Then Aliens its further made clear WY have no idea about Xenomorphs as they build a colony right next to the Derelict and its only when Ripley turns up 20 years later ONE single WY employee sends the colony to investigate. Why would they wait 20 years if they knew??? There's zero logic in that. The simple fact is none of them knew what happened on the Nostromo and none of them believe Ripley, only Burke takes a chance on her story being true and only him alone. Then Alien 3 all of a sudden they are interested in the Alien, but only because 85 has contacted them and told them there's one running around Fury and one in Ripley! And also that flight recorder data was transmitted.
WY literally don't try to find any Xenomorphs until the end of Alien 3. The entire events of the other movies they don't act! They dont act after the Nostromo is destroyed, they dont even know its location or thats its been on LV-426 otherwise they would have gone looking there! They dont act after they find Ripley and they dont believe her story. They build a colony right nextvto their apparently highly sought after Derelict and do NOTHING for 20 years! They only decide to act at the climax of Alien 3. This heavily implies they don't have prior knowledge of the Xenomorph.
There's nothing in Alien to say they knew about the Alien specifically.
There's everything to say they were deliberately sent to LV-426 to investigate the signal and pick up whatever life form they found there.
What the company knew of the transmission and its contents are vague and unknown. Likely it wasn't terribly specific as they wouldn't send a random ship to investigate if they knew what they were dealing with.
If Alien was written by an EU author, Ash would've been trying to murder everyone from the get go and the order would say "KILL THE CREW! LEAVE NO WITNESSES!"
The movie version is more wishy washy and corporate.
There's no big overarching conspiracy, no. But the Nostromo crew was absolutely set up and endangered.
Quote from: SiL on May 31, 2023, 09:08:57 PMIf Alien was written by an EU author, Ash would've been trying to murder everyone from the get go and the order would say "KILL THE CREW! LEAVE NO WITNESSES!"
Yup. The EU and a lot of fans won't be happy until Weyland-Yutani goes full mask-off Umbrella-mode.
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 31, 2023, 11:33:23 PMQuote from: SiL on May 31, 2023, 09:08:57 PMIf Alien was written by an EU author, Ash would've been trying to murder everyone from the get go and the order would say "KILL THE CREW! LEAVE NO WITNESSES!"
Yup. The EU and a lot of fans won't be happy until Weyland-Yutani goes full mask-off Umbrella-mode.
Then let's hear it for the filthy casuals! We don't give a shit about EU. We watch the movies. That's it ;)
TC
Quote from: Jonjamess on May 31, 2023, 07:50:54 PMPerhaps WY did have some information on LV-426 before the events of Alien. A tip off or a scan or they detected the beacon. Then perhaps they replaced the Science Officer on the Nostromo knowing it could be re-routed to investigate this signal. And I could even buy that the Special Order was uploaded by Ash or by WY prior to the Nostromo departing.
But the fact of the matter is nobody in that movie is communicating with anyone back at Earth, WY employees or not. They are 10 months out and wouldn't be able to get instantaneous communications back and forth. So it still stands the Special Order is automated and not the instructions of an individual communicating directly with the Nostromo. And it also still stands that WY very very likely had no idea what they were sending the ship to investigate. They likely had no idea it was acid bleeding facehuggers and alien eggs. The Special Order mentioning retrieval of the lifeform and the crew being expendable is likely just one of many "predicted" or "possible" events that WY either programs into all their vessels or as I mentioned was planted when they swapped the Science Officer.
This whole WY conspiracy thing just seems to be a fan need rather than an actual plot point. There is nothing in the movies that suggests WY know anything about the Xenomorph. In Alien all we see is a generic Special Order that literally just mentions lifeform (a generic term). We know Ash is swapped in so that's the only other suspicious link we have that WY is sinister. Bit that still doesn't prove at all they have any knowledge of Xenomorphs. Then Aliens its further made clear WY have no idea about Xenomorphs as they build a colony right next to the Derelict and its only when Ripley turns up 20 years later ONE single WY employee sends the colony to investigate. Why would they wait 20 years if they knew??? There's zero logic in that. The simple fact is none of them knew what happened on the Nostromo and none of them believe Ripley, only Burke takes a chance on her story being true and only him alone. Then Alien 3 all of a sudden they are interested in the Alien, but only because 85 has contacted them and told them there's one running around Fury and one in Ripley! And also that flight recorder data was transmitted.
WY literally don't try to find any Xenomorphs until the end of Alien 3. The entire events of the other movies they don't act! They dont act after the Nostromo is destroyed, they dont even know its location or thats its been on LV-426 otherwise they would have gone looking there! They dont act after they find Ripley and they dont believe her story. They build a colony right nextvto their apparently highly sought after Derelict and do NOTHING for 20 years! They only decide to act at the climax of Alien 3. This heavily implies they don't have prior knowledge of the Xenomorph.
FWIW, Burke was able to send a message to the colony to investigate a particular location, and one timeline indicates that it took a week from the time he sent that and the time the Jordens were sent out:
https://alientimeline.wordpress.com/2127-2179/
One problem is that it's assumed that one has to wait for a response before sending a message. Commonsensically, one can send many messages with or without the recipient responding. For some reason, the colony chose not to send anything about the Jordens, the facehuggers, etc. Either that or the company got all of the details and came up with the downed transmitter storyline not to alarm anyone who finds out about the mission. But that's pointless as well because they're sending an armed contingent and with Ripley, so it's obviously that the storyline doesn't hold water.
Oddly, Ripley's behavior doesn't show that, as she would have easily realized that something has gone wrong with the colony, which is why they need her help. She would have also suspected that Burke, representing the company, wants to retrieve alien tech and specimens, following what she realized from the first movie. Add to that her anger upon discovering that they had Bishop on board, which reminds her of Ash.
Even the Marines would have realized similar, and after reading Ripley's brief: they're not there on a rescue mission or even to even help the colony work on a downed transmitter but to help anyone who could retrieve alien stuff. The fact that they specialize in "bug hunts" also attests to that.
This view, that transmissions of reports without the need for acknowledgment from the recipient, also creates problems for the first movie. That is, a computer that's so sophisticated that it can navigate vessels while the crew is in hibernation could easily and automatically transmit reports on location, course, things like distress signals, to the company, government, etc., in the same way that various vehicles do today. That implies that the company and government would not have had to rely on Nostromo logs from the lifeboat but could have received the same while the events in the first movie were taking place, although delayed by a few days or weeks (probably longer if they didn't have outposts and relay stations that time, compared to what they had around five decades later, when the second movie took place).
Similarly, the company/gov't could have received reports from the Nostromo about the Jordens, the facehuggers, etc., automatically using colony computers, long before the transmitters go offline.
Finally, the idea of communicating with anyone on earth or in outposts, etc., can be seen in what happened in the third movie, where protagonists were communicating with the company/government via text messages. In any case, distance and human agency could be set aside if computers are able to communicate and send messages without waiting for responses.
what facinates me is how wy knew there was an organism on lv 426 without actually going to the surface and investigating. to me at least "crew expendable" seems to indicate that wy knew or suspected the organism was dangerous and (maybe) required a human host. ripley does ask ash to return dallas and co after mother s analysis of the beacon signal indicated it to be a warning. would further analysis have made mother point to the existance of an organism.
who knows
ash is on record from one of the earlier scripts that the signal was frighteningly specific when wy first analysed it. however I don't know what ridley vs hill/giler actually wanted in the movie.
this might point to the initial knowledge of the organism. which is the question i wanted to know the answer to.
someone here mentioned ash damaging the ship. was this scripted somewhere as to why the crew was awakened?
They likely intercepted the transmission and translated enough to know there was something there to check out.
probably
The company knowing about a dangerous lifeform also doesn't mean they knew it was on Acheron precisely, they knew the star system that the warning transmission originated from however. Therefore it's entirely feasible that they knew some info about it, but not knowing the precise, exact whereabouts explains the establishment of the colony.
Quote from: oduodu on Jun 01, 2023, 06:45:32 AMwhat facinates me is how wy knew there was an organism on lv 426 without actually going to the surface and investigating. to me at least "crew expendable" seems to indicate that wy knew or suspected the organism was dangerous and (maybe) required a human host. ripley does ask ash to return dallas and co after mother s analysis of the beacon signal indicated it to be a warning. would further analysis have made mother point to the existance of an organism.
who knows
ash is on record from one of the earlier scripts that the signal was frighteningly specific when wy first analysed it. however I don't know what ridley vs hill/giler actually wanted in the movie.
this might point to the initial knowledge of the organism. which is the question i wanted to know the answer to.
someone here mentioned ash damaging the ship. was this scripted somewhere as to why the crew was awakened?
The policy was in place before any organism was found. My understanding is that it called for crews to investigate any phenomenon of interest and collect information on it, and if organisms are involved, collect them for company labs. Allowing for the crew to be expendable was likely based on cost-benefit views, similar to what has been happening in the real world.
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 01, 2023, 07:45:14 AMThe company knowing about a dangerous lifeform also doesn't mean they knew it was on Acheron precisely, they knew the star system that the warning transmission originated from however. Therefore it's entirely feasible that they knew some info about it, but not knowing the precise, exact whereabouts explains the establishment of the colony.
I think the storyline that they wanted to create was that the Nostromo sent no information to the company about the distress beacon, the alien ship and its passenger, the eggs, the facehugger, and the alien, and that limited information was stored in the logs only, mainly that the Nostromo landed on the rock, and then took off.
For some reason, however, Burke was able to get the location of the alien ship. To maintain the storyline that he acted alone, then that meant he was a very good guesser. It's either that or everyone in the room ignored the alien ship location (even Ripley) and that only Burke bothered to investigate.
There is one incident, however, where Ripley actually bothers to ask van Leuwen to check out the site to prove her story (although she does does it too late, after the case is closed), and he answers with a bewildering response: a colony has been there for decades, and they didn't encounter anything, so there's need to investigate. Even more bewildering is the point that she accepts the excuse, and likely because she didn't know all along that a colony was there, something that she would have known had she researched on the same case to defend herself. (That's why I pointed out earlier that he probably needed a lawyer.)
All of these would support the point that not only did the company not know it also didn't care, which is weird given the efforts it put in requiring personnel to investigate such phenomena, not to mention the context of the movie, where it is later revealed that there are even Marines who are tasked with "bug hunts" and encountered "Arcturians," etc.
Given that, a more logical narrative would be that the Nostromo did not send anything (which is why the company and government did terraforming on the planet, with the distress beacon no longer working) but at least the alien ship location was found in the ship logs that came with the lifeboat. The company did investigate the matter but made Burke the point man, which made it look to the viewer that he was acting alone, but as others like Ripley revealed, is acting in exchange for a percentage (which means he wasn't acting alone).
There are still character flaws, though, like Ripley not raising that information during the hearing, especially given the argument that it's the only evidence she has to prove her story.
Quote from: ralfy on Jun 02, 2023, 02:03:49 AMQuote from: oduodu on Jun 01, 2023, 06:45:32 AMwhat facinates me is how wy knew there was an organism on lv 426 without actually going to the surface and investigating. to me at least "crew expendable" seems to indicate that wy knew or suspected the organism was dangerous and (maybe) required a human host. ripley does ask ash to return dallas and co after mother s analysis of the beacon signal indicated it to be a warning. would further analysis have made mother point to the existance of an organism.
who knows
ash is on record from one of the earlier scripts that the signal was frighteningly specific when wy first analysed it. however I don't know what ridley vs hill/giler actually wanted in the movie.
this might point to the initial knowledge of the organism. which is the question i wanted to know the answer to.
someone here mentioned ash damaging the ship. was this scripted somewhere as to why the crew was awakened?
The policy was in place before any organism was found. My understanding is that it called for crews to investigate any phenomenon of interest and collect information on it, and if organisms are involved, collect them for company labs. Allowing for the crew to be expendable was likely based on cost-benefit views, similar to what has been happening in the real world.
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 01, 2023, 07:45:14 AMThe company knowing about a dangerous lifeform also doesn't mean they knew it was on Acheron precisely, they knew the star system that the warning transmission originated from however. Therefore it's entirely feasible that they knew some info about it, but not knowing the precise, exact whereabouts explains the establishment of the colony.
I think the storyline that they wanted to create was that the Nostromo sent no information to the company about the distress beacon, the alien ship and its passenger, the eggs, the facehugger, and the alien, and that limited information was stored in the logs only, mainly that the Nostromo landed on the rock, and then took off.
For some reason, however, Burke was able to get the location of the alien ship. To maintain the storyline that he acted alone, then that meant he was a very good guesser. It's either that or everyone in the room ignored the alien ship location (even Ripley) and that only Burke bothered to investigate.
There is one incident, however, where Ripley actually bothers to ask van Leuwen to check out the site to prove her story (although she does does it too late, after the case is closed), and he answers with a bewildering response: a colony has been there for decades, and they didn't encounter anything, so there's need to investigate. Even more bewildering is the point that she accepts the excuse, and likely because she didn't know all along that a colony was there, something that she would have known had she researched on the same case to defend herself. (That's why I pointed out earlier that he probably needed a lawyer.)
All of these would support the point that not only did the company not know it also didn't care, which is weird given the efforts it put in requiring personnel to investigate such phenomena, not to mention the context of the movie, where it is later revealed that there are even Marines who are tasked with "bug hunts" and encountered "Arcturians," etc.
Given that, a more logical narrative would be that the Nostromo did not send anything (which is why the company and government did terraforming on the planet, with the distress beacon no longer working) but at least the alien ship location was found in the ship logs that came with the lifeboat. The company did investigate the matter but made Burke the point man, which made it look to the viewer that he was acting alone, but as others like Ripley revealed, is acting in exchange for a percentage (which means he wasn't acting alone).
There are still character flaws, though, like Ripley not raising that information during the hearing, especially given the argument that it's the only evidence she has to prove her story.
I agree with everything you say except Burke not acting alone. The percentage thing everyone is going on about does NOT mean he ISNT acting alone. All it means is that WY owns the colony and so has rights to the planet and so the Derelict. Meaning anything of value he discovers would have to he shared with them. Not even to mention a percentage with the Jordans had they survived as they initially made the discovery and its mentioned anything they find at those co-ordinates will essentially be theirs.
Still doesn't mean Burke isn't acting alone, he is.
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/l1ugmrXA6gLlIbNE4/giphy.gif)
Any further correspondence should be made to Cameron. Oh wait he already answered fan mail... 😁😜 —
"As scripted, they were given the general coordinates of its position by the manager of the colony, on orders from Carter Burke. It is not directly stated, but presumed, that Burke could only have gotten that information from Ripley or from the black-box flight recorder aboard the shuttle Narcissus, which accessed the Nostromo's on-board computer."
...
"Briggs' idea that the company had already discovered the derelict is therefore unnecessary and would invalidate Carter Burke's motives for attempting to bring back a sample of the organism for study, and using such drastic means to do it."
how would burke know if the company had pre knowledge of a dangerous organism 67 years after they (presumably) became aware of it or after settling the colony on hadley s hope ?
Quote from: oduodu on Jun 02, 2023, 06:18:07 PMhow would burke know if the company had pre knowledge of a dangerous organism 67 years after they (presumably) became aware of it or after settling the colony on hadley s hope ?
What do you mean? The movie Aliens insinuates that he doesn't think they have previous knowledge of the creature Ripley describes. Because they claim they don't believe Ripley, the have had a colony sitting next to the Derelict for 20 years and ignored it and the Company as a whole aren't interested in checking out Ripley's claims.
"Why don't you just go check out LV-426?"
"Because we don't have to, there's been people there for over 20 years and they never complained about a dangerous organism"
Obviously those are simplified quotes not like for like.
I'm not sure how much more evidence people need that Cameron's intentions were that Burke was acting alone out of pure financial greed and because he was clearly the only one who believed Ripley. WY was only made into thus sinister Xenomorph obsessed company in the EU stuff and perhaps to an extent at the climax of Alien 3. But before that they weren't obsessed with the Xenomorph at all and probably had no knowledge it existed. I understand the new TV series is very likely to retcon this but if we just consider the original quadrilogy on its own, Weyland Yutani really aren't that in the know about the Alien and they really aren't portrayed as desperate to get one.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jun 02, 2023, 12:13:47 PMQuote from: ralfy on Jun 02, 2023, 02:03:49 AMQuote from: oduodu on Jun 01, 2023, 06:45:32 AMwhat facinates me is how wy knew there was an organism on lv 426 without actually going to the surface and investigating. to me at least "crew expendable" seems to indicate that wy knew or suspected the organism was dangerous and (maybe) required a human host. ripley does ask ash to return dallas and co after mother s analysis of the beacon signal indicated it to be a warning. would further analysis have made mother point to the existance of an organism.
who knows
ash is on record from one of the earlier scripts that the signal was frighteningly specific when wy first analysed it. however I don't know what ridley vs hill/giler actually wanted in the movie.
this might point to the initial knowledge of the organism. which is the question i wanted to know the answer to.
someone here mentioned ash damaging the ship. was this scripted somewhere as to why the crew was awakened?
The policy was in place before any organism was found. My understanding is that it called for crews to investigate any phenomenon of interest and collect information on it, and if organisms are involved, collect them for company labs. Allowing for the crew to be expendable was likely based on cost-benefit views, similar to what has been happening in the real world.
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 01, 2023, 07:45:14 AMThe company knowing about a dangerous lifeform also doesn't mean they knew it was on Acheron precisely, they knew the star system that the warning transmission originated from however. Therefore it's entirely feasible that they knew some info about it, but not knowing the precise, exact whereabouts explains the establishment of the colony.
I think the storyline that they wanted to create was that the Nostromo sent no information to the company about the distress beacon, the alien ship and its passenger, the eggs, the facehugger, and the alien, and that limited information was stored in the logs only, mainly that the Nostromo landed on the rock, and then took off.
For some reason, however, Burke was able to get the location of the alien ship. To maintain the storyline that he acted alone, then that meant he was a very good guesser. It's either that or everyone in the room ignored the alien ship location (even Ripley) and that only Burke bothered to investigate.
There is one incident, however, where Ripley actually bothers to ask van Leuwen to check out the site to prove her story (although she does does it too late, after the case is closed), and he answers with a bewildering response: a colony has been there for decades, and they didn't encounter anything, so there's need to investigate. Even more bewildering is the point that she accepts the excuse, and likely because she didn't know all along that a colony was there, something that she would have known had she researched on the same case to defend herself. (That's why I pointed out earlier that he probably needed a lawyer.)
All of these would support the point that not only did the company not know it also didn't care, which is weird given the efforts it put in requiring personnel to investigate such phenomena, not to mention the context of the movie, where it is later revealed that there are even Marines who are tasked with "bug hunts" and encountered "Arcturians," etc.
Given that, a more logical narrative would be that the Nostromo did not send anything (which is why the company and government did terraforming on the planet, with the distress beacon no longer working) but at least the alien ship location was found in the ship logs that came with the lifeboat. The company did investigate the matter but made Burke the point man, which made it look to the viewer that he was acting alone, but as others like Ripley revealed, is acting in exchange for a percentage (which means he wasn't acting alone).
There are still character flaws, though, like Ripley not raising that information during the hearing, especially given the argument that it's the only evidence she has to prove her story.
I agree with everything you say except Burke not acting alone. The percentage thing everyone is going on about does NOT mean he ISNT acting alone. All it means is that WY owns the colony and so has rights to the planet and so the Derelict. Meaning anything of value he discovers would have to he shared with them. Not even to mention a percentage with the Jordans had they survived as they initially made the discovery and its mentioned anything they find at those co-ordinates will essentially be theirs.
Still doesn't mean Burke isn't acting alone, he is.
The only way for Burke to have acted alone involves the following:
Ripley and everyone in the board had access to the alien ship location, and yet it was only Burke who acted on the matter. This would have taken place even as both the company and the government had known about alien species like the Arcturians.
Only Burke had access to communications with the colony.
Burke had the ability to order the military to send with him an armed contingent specializing in "bug hunts," and the government, company, and even military wouldn't even care.
These are significant character flaws for company and government officials who appears to be part of monetization and weaponization, and has a history, together with the military, of encountering alien species.
Additional points:
What the Jordens find is not essentially theirs, and the same applies to Burke. All of them, together with the space truckers in the first movie, only get a percentage of profits. Almost everything goes to the company and the government. That makes acting alone pointless.
Bishop explains to Ripley that Burke instructed him to store the facehuggers to be sent to company labs. I think it's safe to say that those are W-Y company labs and not labs that Burke set up by himself.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jun 02, 2023, 08:59:51 PMQuote from: oduodu on Jun 02, 2023, 06:18:07 PMhow would burke know if the company had pre knowledge of a dangerous organism 67 years after they (presumably) became aware of it or after settling the colony on hadley s hope ?
What do you mean? The movie Aliens insinuates that he doesn't think they have previous knowledge of the creature Ripley describes. Because they claim they don't believe Ripley, the have had a colony sitting next to the Derelict for 20 years and ignored it and the Company as a whole aren't interested in checking out Ripley's claims.
"Why don't you just go check out LV-426?"
"Because we don't have to, there's been people there for over 20 years and they never complained about a dangerous organism"
Obviously those are simplified quotes not like for like.
I'm not sure how much more evidence people need that Cameron's intentions were that Burke was acting alone out of pure financial greed and because he was clearly the only one who believed Ripley. WY was only made into thus sinister Xenomorph obsessed company in the EU stuff and perhaps to an extent at the climax of Alien 3. But before that they weren't obsessed with the Xenomorph at all and probably had no knowledge it existed. I understand the new TV series is very likely to retcon this but if we just consider the original quadrilogy on its own, Weyland Yutani really aren't that in the know about the Alien and they really aren't portrayed as desperate to get one.
There's too much content in both movies to show that Burke didn't act alone, and more than enough in the first movie alone to show that the WY is a "sinister" company, not to mention that it looks ridiculous for the company, government, military, and even Ripley not to care: percentages, bioweapons, company labs, Arcturians, bug hunts, Ripley not knowing that there was a colony on the rock until she found out accidentally from van Leuwen after she is penalized, and so on.
The whole narrative would have fallen apart at the onset had Ripley required the board to investigate the alien ship location because it's the only piece of evidence she has to prove her case and thus avoid penalties, and even a law student would have dismissed van Leuwen's claims about a colony being there and seeing nothing. If any, excuses not to find out were clearly negated by Burke, who easily contacted the colony, who in turn easily went to the location because it had enough wildcatters eager to get a percentage of what's monetized.
Apparently, greed applies to almost everyone in the movie, including not only Burke but even Parker from the first movie.
ChatGPT is warming up.
The movies show us that greed drives unethical behaviour that is willing to endanger the lives of people for potential profit.
They don't show us top down Company wide conspiracies where the official policy seems to be "f**k it, just kill people why not. Let's set up a colony just to murder."
Ok puts on 'nerd cap' 😂 —
Keep in mind that when Hudson questions whether the operation will be another stand up fight or another "bug-hunt", bug-hunt can just be a term that pertains to sweep-and-clear operations without clear objectives. It's a play on "snipe hunt," a term that can be used to describe a purposeless task. It's possible they have encountered foreign fauna before but bug hunt doesn't necessarily mean literal bugs.
Also Burke is just following standard procedure, he has confirmation and live specimens that are valuable assets for the company labs, prior he wasn't certain there'd be more than a downed transmitter. As far as I can recall, the United Americas Allied Command, which the USCM are a part, wouldn't need Burke's permission to formally investigate lost contact of a colony, why would they? The Colonial Marine Corps' key responsibilities include serving as the forerunner in any significant war operation and maintaining security for all signatories of the United Americas as well as at all extraterrestrial colonies that are under its jurisdiction.¹
1 Aliens: Colonial Marines Technical Manual
Burke and Ripley are civilian advisors with no authority on the mission.
Thanks for the coffee.
Yeah I meant the Colonial Marine Corps didn't need Burke's permission to investigate.
Yeah I'm basically at the point where I don't think Ralfy has ever actually watched the movie.
😂
Why is this thread not dead yet?
(https://i.imgur.com/185Bk9m.gif)
You're missing the point about Burke acting alone! Completely missing the point! Quoting that he instructs Bishop to gather the facehuggers for return to the company labs (he even says Company labs!) doesn't mean he wasn't going to share his discovery with WY. Of course he was! He had to, he couldn't contain the Aliens himself and WY has rights over the Colony.
When I say hr was acting alone I mean in the first instance. By sending the Jordans to investigate (on his own not with WY permission) and by then joining the Marines to see why they've lost contact, that is how he's acting alone. WY don't believe Ripley, they thinks she's nuts!
Burke believes her so decides to go a little bit out of his jurisdiction and see if she really is telling the truth even though WY as a whole has dismissed her. Of course once he got his hands on what Ripley was describing he then assumed he would return to WY a hero with a huge bonus for having used his initiative and secured them a valuable bioweapon.
Apologies if I'm starting to sound a bit blunt but why is that so hard to understand? He's taken it upon himself without WY authorisation to send those colonists to the co-ordinates obviously stored on the flight recorder to see if there is something valuable there. Then he takes all the credit. Of course he wasn't going to set up his own labs or study the creature on his own! He was going to be the one to deliver it to them except WY weren't aware of his intentions as they had already dismissed Ripley!
Cameron has even stated Burke is acting alone although admittedly I'm having trouble finding the source and hope I'm remembering correctly. He states something about the board members in the hearing and how they aren't lying to Ripley and deceiving her, he says they genuinely don't believe her.
Thus Burke was acting alone. On a very basic level imagine in an everyday job you weren't asked to do something by your manager but you decide to take the risk and do it anyway, without telling them because you think it might show great iniative and you will be rewarded! Youre still acting alone, you havent shared your intentions with your management at that point. It's that!
Quote from: SiL on Jun 03, 2023, 01:44:45 AMThe movies show us that greed drives unethical behaviour that is willing to endanger the lives of people for potential profit.
They don't show us top down Company wide conspiracies where the official policy seems to be "f**k it, just kill people why not. Let's set up a colony just to murder."
Thank you, absolutely this! Spot on.
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 03, 2023, 01:56:45 AMbug-hunt can just be a term that pertains to sweep-and-clear operations without clear objectives. It's a play on "snipe hunt"
The lack of understanding around this, and the misinterpretation of "xenomorph", have done so much damage.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 03, 2023, 01:44:45 AMThey don't show us top down Company wide conspiracies where the official policy seems to be "f**k it, just kill people why not. Let's set up a colony just to murder."
Thank you. It's the banality of evil, not moustache-twirling cartoon shit.
@Jonjamess Here's the Cameron quote you're after my good lad —
"
As scripted, they were given the general coordinates of its position by the manager of the colony, on orders from Carter Burke. It is not directly stated, but presumed, that Burke could only have gotten that information from Ripley or from the black-box flight recorder aboard the shuttle Narcissus, which accessed the Nostromo's on-board computer."
...
"
Briggs' idea that the company had already discovered the derelict is therefore unnecessary and would invalidate Carter Burke's motives for attempting to bring back a sample of the organism for study, and using such drastic means to do it."
[/quote]
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jun 03, 2023, 09:33:10 PMApologies if I'm starting to sound a bit blunt but why is that so hard to understand?
That's the $64,000 question. I think SiL just hasn't tried hard enough to explain it to him.
The TL;DR so
@Local Trouble can find it for us all again in another decade when this topic refuses to die:
Ripley returns from space. Says space monsters ate her crew, except one, who was totally a robot spy.
Government investigates because of course they do, but there's no sign of the monster and the place she said she found them has been peacefully colonised for 20 years. They don't find her credible enough to check it themselves.
Burke sees an opportunity and instructs the site manager to send out someone to look at the grid reference from the flight recorder. Doesn't warn them not to look too close, because that would turn it into a security situation.
The colonists look too close and it turns into a security situation.
Marines are sent to investigate because space is big and empty and you sort of want to make sure you send everything you might need the first time. Burke and Ripley tag along as civilian advisors.
Burke asks Bishop to preserve Facehuggers to send back to the Company labs. Bishop says sure whatever because the specimens will all have to go through quarantine anyway.
Ripley's like yeah nah f**k off with that noise.
Burke realises he's not going to get the Facehuggers back so tries to get Ripley and Newt impregnated to slip the chestbursters past quarantine.
And then he dies the end.
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 03, 2023, 01:56:45 AMOk puts on 'nerd cap' 😂 —
Keep in mind that when Hudson questions whether the operation will be another stand up fight or another "bug-hunt", bug-hunt can just be a term that pertains to sweep-and-clear operations without clear objectives. It's a play on "snipe hunt," a term that can be used to describe a purposeless task. It's possible they have encountered foreign fauna before but bug hunt doesn't necessarily mean literal bugs.
Also Burke is just following standard procedure, he has confirmation and live specimens that are valuable assets for the company labs, prior he wasn't certain there'd be more than a downed transmitter. As far as I can recall, the United Americas Allied Command, which the USCM are a part, wouldn't need Burke's permission to formally investigate lost contact of a colony, why would they? The Colonial Marine Corps' key responsibilities include serving as the forerunner in any significant war operation and maintaining security for all signatories of the United Americas as well as at all extraterrestrial colonies that are under its jurisdiction.¹
1 Aliens: Colonial Marines Technical Manual
They have a logo in their drop ship and talk about "Arcturians". They also received Ripley's brief, which contained details on the facehugger and the alien.
In addition, "bug hunt" in the real world refers to literally looking for insects or defects in systems. In this case, the reference is clearly the former. Following Ripley's report, they look like large insects. That's why Marines were used, and heavily armed.
Why the complacency? From what I gathered, most of them don't like what they do, and some just want to end their service. But they don't call the shots: rather, they superiors do. That means the ff.
The company and government are partners in the terraforming project plus anything that can be gained from the rock; hence, mineral rights. The first has a stake in monetizing any discoveries, and the second in monetizing it. Ripley's and Ash's points in the first and second movie and Burke's points in the second make this very clear.
The alien ship location was known by the whole board and even Ripley, which means for Burke to have acted alone implies significant character flaws involving both. The flaw in Ripley actually appeared in the movie, when she bothered to ask the board to investigate the location, which is the only piece of evidence that would have allowed her to defend herself, too late. To make matters worse, she only found out that a colony had been on the rock for two decades only after the hearing, and accidentally, too, which means she didn't bother to do research on what happened to the rock and even the company and government the decades she was gone.
When one follows standard procedure and will use company labs, among others, then it becomes illogical to act alone, i.e., without knowledge from the company and the government.
Finally, about the point concerning the military acting independently, they would have been able to do so in this case following the storyline that Burke acted alone because that would have meant that only he bothered to have the site investigated and only he had communications with the colony. No one else knew. That would also mean that he had control of any military unit, i.e., they didn't have to ask him for permission to investigate what happened (as they wouldn't have known because only he had access to everything happening to the colony) but that he didn't have to ask permission from military higher-ups to commandeer a military unit.
One more point: Ripley pointed out later in the movie that the mission is under military jurisdiction, which meant that the military was calling the shots. Since Gorman was meeting with Burke, and since the military is part of the government that works with the company, then it's likely that Gorman was instructed by higher-ups in the military that works for the goverment to follow Burke. And following what Bishop said, Burke's instructions were to retrieve the facehuggers and prepare them to be brought to company labs, among others. It was only with Gorman and Apone out that Hicks was able to make decisions.
It's clear, then, that Burke didn't work alone, and that several in government and company were involved. He was to act as the front man and to manage everything, with the military via Gorman working for him.
Bug-stomper can simply refer to stomping enemy hostiles, again it's not necessarily literal. Pretty sure they're not having intimate relations with bug-like Arcturians either, they sound like citizens from an established world, station, etc.
I'm aware of big hunting in the software context, but in the military —
"In Real-world Military Context: The term could also be used metaphorically to refer to a search for elusive, hard-to-find targets, much like searching for insects or "bugs". This could include missions focused on finding specific individuals (like high-value targets in a conflict), or even missions that involve detailed searches for equipment or devices (like improvised explosive devices or IEDs).
Remember, language in the military can be quite fluid and context-dependent, and terminology can vary between different units, services, or nations. Also, "bug hunt" as a military term is not universally used or recognized, and its meaning may not be immediately clear to all service members."
Burke was working alone, source: James Cameron.
His name is James Cameron, the bravest pioneer, no budget too steep, no sea too deep, who's that? It's him, James Cameron!
Quote from: SM on Nov 28, 2008, 12:37:25 AMThere's nothing definate about Arcturians - but I think the stuff about "bug hunts" says enough that there are extra terrestrials lifeforms in the Alien universe beyond Aliens and Jockies (even if Jockies aren't around anymore). The fact that we don't get any indication of ETs in Resurrection would imply to me that said ETs encountered are most likely animals - ie. the bugs marines sometimes have to hunt.
Quote from: ralfy on Jun 04, 2023, 03:46:28 AMWhen one follows standard procedure and will use company labs, among others, then it becomes illogical to act alone, i.e., without knowledge from the company and the government.
It's clear, then, that Burke didn't work alone, and that several in government and company were involved. He was to act as the front man and to manage everything, with the military via Gorman working for him.
Come on I've already explained this. They don't believe her! Burke is the only one that does, he's trying to use his initiative and score WY a valuable asset but not to do them a favour but to make himself rich! Burke isn't interested in the Alien or the scientific benefits of the discovery or the bio-weapons WY can make. He's interested in getting rich, full stop. He's acting alone without WY back up. If WY had believed Ripley they would have sent Burke and a platoon of Private Military to either/both the Derelict and the Colony! They are are huge and wealthy corporation.
You honestly believe if they were so desperate for a Xenomorph and they believed Ripley they would just act like "yeah sure just send 11 fed up Colonial Marines, they might be able to capture this extremely dangerous creature that's killed 157 colonists. And if they aren't up for it, ah well we tried and nevermind".
You have to use logic here, you can't just keep repeating the same flawed argument again and again to satisfy your own personal desire of how you would prefer the storyline had gone down. But at this point I think it's becoming futile trying to debate with you as there are clearly quite a few plot points you are failing to comprehend or understand.
Hell, Burke doesn't even necessarily believe her, it's just so little effort for him to have it checked out that he does so. Worst case scenario he wasted some poor schmuck's time and whatever the cost of a transmission is. Since the company runs the operations at the colony it's perfectly fine to just ask someone to do something (so long as it's not potentially dangerous, clearly).
I've gone over it with Ralfy before that the reason Van Leuwen wouldn't check is because A) the fact the colonists have been there for two decades with no issues says a lot and B) for him to request someone check it out would be a huge security situation which he can't be bothered with because A.
He doesn't care.
He must be writing some fan fiction that hinges on some big conspiracy and his head canon is locked in. Maybe he should be an EU author. He'd fit right in.
Outstanding. Now all we need is a deck of cards.
Sorry
@Local Trouble but it's time for another TL;DR (I really should just start my video essay YouTube already)
When people say "Burke is acting alone", they don't mean "Burke is literally planning to have the Aliens shipped to his apartment back home where he will try to sell them on whatever the Alien universe's future version of eBay is".
What they mean is, "Burke was not instructed by anyone to obtain the Aliens, and is acting under his own volition to do so. However, if he
is successful in getting the Alien to his employers, they will obviously be very happy and willing to do something with it."
Burke living with a facehugger in his apartment, there's an EU idea.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 04, 2023, 07:54:22 AMSorry @Local Trouble but it's time for another TL;DR (I really should just start my video essay YouTube already)
When people say "Burke is acting alone", they don't mean "Burke is literally planning to have the Aliens shipped to his apartment back home where he will try to sell them on whatever the Alien universe's future version of eBay is".
What they mean is, "Burke was not instructed by anyone to obtain the Aliens, and is acting under his own volition to do so. However, if he is successful in getting the Alien to his employers, they will obviously be very happy and willing to do something with it."
You've explained this so much better than I did. So thank you for that. This is exactly what I've been meaning.
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 04, 2023, 08:21:29 AMBurke living with a facehugger in his apartment, there's an EU idea.
He'd be living with 2 baby Xenomorphs he snuck past quarantine in Ripley and Newt! The fact when Ripley is saying that he was planning to use her and Newt to get the creatures through ICC quarantine was only so he could then pass them on to WY. WY isn't the Earth Government and while it might have some influence in Government due to the fact its portrayed as a rather large and rich organisation, I think even WY would have problems legitimately getting these creatures onto Earth.
He'd also have his 2 dead facehuggers brought back by Bishop, he could get them stuffed and mount them on the apartment wall!
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jun 04, 2023, 08:36:08 AMQuote from: SiL on Jun 04, 2023, 07:54:22 AMSorry @Local Trouble but it's time for another TL;DR (I really should just start my video essay YouTube already)
When people say "Burke is acting alone", they don't mean "Burke is literally planning to have the Aliens shipped to his apartment back home where he will try to sell them on whatever the Alien universe's future version of eBay is".
What they mean is, "Burke was not instructed by anyone to obtain the Aliens, and is acting under his own volition to do so. However, if he is successful in getting the Alien to his employers, they will obviously be very happy and willing to do something with it."
You've explained this so much better than I did. So thank you for that. This is exactly what I've been meaning.
I've had the benefit of mulling this particular point of conversation with Ralfy over in my head for ... weeks? Months? in order to boil it down to its essence.
Do you think it'll take root this time?
Doubt it. This thread has a substantial dollar value attached to it.
(https://i.imgur.com/9xQ1RzF.gif)
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 04, 2023, 08:21:29 AMBurke living with a facehugger in his apartment, there's an EU idea.
Stop giving Titan ideas!! Lol
The Burke on the Sulaco
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 04, 2023, 01:03:26 PMQuote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 04, 2023, 08:21:29 AMBurke living with a facehugger in his apartment, there's an EU idea.
Stop giving Titan ideas!! Lol
(https://i.imgur.com/u5mDr9f.gif)
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jun 03, 2023, 09:33:10 PMYou're missing the point about Burke acting alone! Completely missing the point! Quoting that he instructs Bishop to gather the facehuggers for return to the company labs (he even says Company labs!) doesn't mean he wasn't going to share his discovery with WY. Of course he was! He had to, he couldn't contain the Aliens himself and WY has rights over the Colony.
When I say hr was acting alone I mean in the first instance. By sending the Jordans to investigate (on his own not with WY permission) and by then joining the Marines to see why they've lost contact, that is how he's acting alone. WY don't believe Ripley, they thinks she's nuts!
Burke believes her so decides to go a little bit out of his jurisdiction and see if she really is telling the truth even though WY as a whole has dismissed her. Of course once he got his hands on what Ripley was describing he then assumed he would return to WY a hero with a huge bonus for having used his initiative and secured them a valuable bioweapon.
Apologies if I'm starting to sound a bit blunt but why is that so hard to understand? He's taken it upon himself without WY authorisation to send those colonists to the co-ordinates obviously stored on the flight recorder to see if there is something valuable there. Then he takes all the credit. Of course he wasn't going to set up his own labs or study the creature on his own! He was going to be the one to deliver it to them except WY weren't aware of his intentions as they had already dismissed Ripley!
Cameron has even stated Burke is acting alone although admittedly I'm having trouble finding the source and hope I'm remembering correctly. He states something about the board members in the hearing and how they aren't lying to Ripley and deceiving her, he says they genuinely don't believe her.
Thus Burke was acting alone. On a very basic level imagine in an everyday job you weren't asked to do something by your manager but you decide to take the risk and do it anyway, without telling them because you think it might show great iniative and you will be rewarded! Youre still acting alone, you havent shared your intentions with your management at that point. It's that!
Quote from: SiL on Jun 03, 2023, 01:44:45 AMThe movies show us that greed drives unethical behaviour that is willing to endanger the lives of people for potential profit.
They don't show us top down Company wide conspiracies where the official policy seems to be "f**k it, just kill people why not. Let's set up a colony just to murder."
Thank you, absolutely this! Spot on.
To clarify, by "working alone" I mean without knowledge of the company and the government. Given that, he was very likely working for both, and that they designated him to do so.
He would have had to share his findings with the company and government because they own the whole rock, e.g., "mineral rights". Also, in order to exploit findings one will need teams of scientists, engineers, etc., as well as labs, factories, and so forth.
Given that, plus the fact that the company and government also knew the location of the alien ship, shows that it's illogical to act alone on such matters.
Also, there was no risk involved: all he had to do was ask the colony to investigate the site. The problem is that the manager sent in a wildcatter, who ended up entering the alien ship and got infected just like what happened in the first movie.
If you think about it, there was no rush in this matter, unless those who knew about the location of the alien ship thought that if word spread then things would get messed up, e.g., leading to everyone in the colony knowing and then rushing to the site to see who gets to find the ship and get a percentage first. But since the company and government already owned everything on the rock, then all that they needed to do was designate a point man who gets a percentage, and that's Burke, especially given the point that he's part of the board of inquiry.
In which case, Burke would not have needed to contact the colony. Instead, he would have come in with a company ship and probably a team of armed escorts and techs to check out the alien ship.
Ralfy still does not grasp the very simple fact that nobody asked Burke to do what he's doing, as he clearly believes that will give him a bigger percentage of rights.
Obviously he'll have to deal with them later when he turns his find in. But he's self motivated to do what he does.
It's not hard. It's explicitly stated in the movie.
Yet he's still going.
But SiL, they knew the location of the alien ship! >:(
And if Van Leuwen had been bothered to have it checked rather than dismissing Ripley as crazy, 157 colonists, 11 marines and an indeterminant number of prisoners could've been spared.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 05, 2023, 04:25:13 AMAnd if Van Leuwen had been bothered to have it checked rather than dismissing Ripley as crazy, 157 colonists, 11 marines and an indeterminant number of prisoners could've been spared.
You know who else would have been spared?
All of us... from this conversation lol
The substantial dollar value though. 😂
Quote from: ralfy on Jun 05, 2023, 12:41:36 AMQuote from: Jonjamess on Jun 03, 2023, 09:33:10 PMYou're missing the point about Burke acting alone! Completely missing the point! Quoting that he instructs Bishop to gather the facehuggers for return to the company labs (he even says Company labs!) doesn't mean he wasn't going to share his discovery with WY. Of course he was! He had to, he couldn't contain the Aliens himself and WY has rights over the Colony.
When I say hr was acting alone I mean in the first instance. By sending the Jordans to investigate (on his own not with WY permission) and by then joining the Marines to see why they've lost contact, that is how he's acting alone. WY don't believe Ripley, they thinks she's nuts!
Burke believes her so decides to go a little bit out of his jurisdiction and see if she really is telling the truth even though WY as a whole has dismissed her. Of course once he got his hands on what Ripley was describing he then assumed he would return to WY a hero with a huge bonus for having used his initiative and secured them a valuable bioweapon.
Apologies if I'm starting to sound a bit blunt but why is that so hard to understand? He's taken it upon himself without WY authorisation to send those colonists to the co-ordinates obviously stored on the flight recorder to see if there is something valuable there. Then he takes all the credit. Of course he wasn't going to set up his own labs or study the creature on his own! He was going to be the one to deliver it to them except WY weren't aware of his intentions as they had already dismissed Ripley!
Cameron has even stated Burke is acting alone although admittedly I'm having trouble finding the source and hope I'm remembering correctly. He states something about the board members in the hearing and how they aren't lying to Ripley and deceiving her, he says they genuinely don't believe her.
Thus Burke was acting alone. On a very basic level imagine in an everyday job you weren't asked to do something by your manager but you decide to take the risk and do it anyway, without telling them because you think it might show great iniative and you will be rewarded! Youre still acting alone, you havent shared your intentions with your management at that point. It's that!
Quote from: SiL on Jun 03, 2023, 01:44:45 AMThe movies show us that greed drives unethical behaviour that is willing to endanger the lives of people for potential profit.
They don't show us top down Company wide conspiracies where the official policy seems to be "f**k it, just kill people why not. Let's set up a colony just to murder."
Thank you, absolutely this! Spot on.
To clarify, by "working alone" I mean without knowledge of the company and the government. Given that, he was very likely working for both, and that they designated him to do so.
He would have had to share his findings with the company and government because they own the whole rock, e.g., "mineral rights". Also, in order to exploit findings one will need teams of scientists, engineers, etc., as well as labs, factories, and so forth.
Given that, plus the fact that the company and government also knew the location of the alien ship, shows that it's illogical to act alone on such matters.
Also, there was no risk involved: all he had to do was ask the colony to investigate the site. The problem is that the manager sent in a wildcatter, who ended up entering the alien ship and got infected just like what happened in the first movie.
If you think about it, there was no rush in this matter, unless those who knew about the location of the alien ship thought that if word spread then things would get messed up, e.g., leading to everyone in the colony knowing and then rushing to the site to see who gets to find the ship and get a percentage first. But since the company and government already owned everything on the rock, then all that they needed to do was designate a point man who gets a percentage, and that's Burke, especially given the point that he's part of the board of inquiry.
In which case, Burke would not have needed to contact the colony. Instead, he would have come in with a company ship and probably a team of armed escorts and techs to check out the alien ship.
Sigh.
QuoteSigh.
I feel this in my diaphragm
The information presented in the movies have always been a bit confusing to me. According to the movies, the company knew of the organisms existence and wanted to secure it, but by part two they've (the Company execs we see) all forgot about it?
Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 23, 2012, 10:50:45 PMI have little doubt that whoever originally issued Special Order 937 to Mother and replaced the Nostromo's science officer with Ash probably buried all evidence of the whole thing after the Nostromo went missing. It's not exactly the kind of fiasco that your average corporate executive wants to take credit for.
Fast forward 57 years later. Burke gets assigned this Ripley case and she tells him this wild story about a hostile organism on LV-426. His head is filled with visions of dollar signs and swimming in a vault full of gold coins like Scrooge McDuck, so he sends an order to the colony administrators instructing them to have the location of this "derelict ship" investigated.
Fossilized.
It's another way Alien and Aliens share the same plot beats. The truckers are sent to investigate "something", unsure of exactly what it is. The colonists are sent to investigate "something", unsure if it actually exists.
Tragedy ensues.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 05, 2023, 09:25:30 PMIt's another way Alien and Aliens share the same plot beats. The truckers are sent to investigate "something", unsure of exactly what it is. The colonists are sent to investigate "something", unsure if it actually exists.
Tragedy ensues.
I remember Redlettermedia mentioning this specific story element in both movies in their Alien commentary. Not that their knowledge is as extensive, being more Trekkies than anything, but pretty amusing nonetheless.
Alien and aliens share a LOT of similar story beats like this...
Personally, I think Cameron did a fantastic job of dressing those similarities up enough that they don't *feel* like a rehash of the previous film; they still feel new.
sorry 57 years
Christ... 😂 They don't believe there is an alien ship out there, "for reasons unknown", they simply do not believe Ripley at all. They think she's batshit, hence the psychiatric probation. Yeah we're going to check out coordinates and spend resources on someone we've given psychiatric probation, that follows... WY and the ICC are separate entities, Burke only works for the WY.
Oh but that's all cover you see *X-Files music plays*
James Cameron: Burke acted alone.
Er naw!
James Cameron: Wut
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 06, 2023, 06:19:09 AMChrist... 😂 They don't believe there is an alien ship out there, "for reasons unknown", they simply do not believe Ripley at all. They think she's batshit, hence the psychiatric probation. Yeah we're going to check out coordinates and spend resources on someone we've given psychiatric probation, that follows... WY and the ICC are separate entities, Burke only works for the WY.
Oh but that's all cover you see *X-Files music plays*
James Cameron: Burke acted alone.
Er naw!
James Cameron: Wut
#IWantToBelieve
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jun 05, 2023, 03:11:55 PMQuote from: ralfy on Jun 05, 2023, 12:41:36 AMQuote from: Jonjamess on Jun 03, 2023, 09:33:10 PMYou're missing the point about Burke acting alone! Completely missing the point! Quoting that he instructs Bishop to gather the facehuggers for return to the company labs (he even says Company labs!) doesn't mean he wasn't going to share his discovery with WY. Of course he was! He had to, he couldn't contain the Aliens himself and WY has rights over the Colony.
When I say hr was acting alone I mean in the first instance. By sending the Jordans to investigate (on his own not with WY permission) and by then joining the Marines to see why they've lost contact, that is how he's acting alone. WY don't believe Ripley, they thinks she's nuts!
Burke believes her so decides to go a little bit out of his jurisdiction and see if she really is telling the truth even though WY as a whole has dismissed her. Of course once he got his hands on what Ripley was describing he then assumed he would return to WY a hero with a huge bonus for having used his initiative and secured them a valuable bioweapon.
Apologies if I'm starting to sound a bit blunt but why is that so hard to understand? He's taken it upon himself without WY authorisation to send those colonists to the co-ordinates obviously stored on the flight recorder to see if there is something valuable there. Then he takes all the credit. Of course he wasn't going to set up his own labs or study the creature on his own! He was going to be the one to deliver it to them except WY weren't aware of his intentions as they had already dismissed Ripley!
Cameron has even stated Burke is acting alone although admittedly I'm having trouble finding the source and hope I'm remembering correctly. He states something about the board members in the hearing and how they aren't lying to Ripley and deceiving her, he says they genuinely don't believe her.
Thus Burke was acting alone. On a very basic level imagine in an everyday job you weren't asked to do something by your manager but you decide to take the risk and do it anyway, without telling them because you think it might show great iniative and you will be rewarded! Youre still acting alone, you havent shared your intentions with your management at that point. It's that!
Quote from: SiL on Jun 03, 2023, 01:44:45 AMThe movies show us that greed drives unethical behaviour that is willing to endanger the lives of people for potential profit.
They don't show us top down Company wide conspiracies where the official policy seems to be "f**k it, just kill people why not. Let's set up a colony just to murder."
Thank you, absolutely this! Spot on.
To clarify, by "working alone" I mean without knowledge of the company and the government. Given that, he was very likely working for both, and that they designated him to do so.
He would have had to share his findings with the company and government because they own the whole rock, e.g., "mineral rights". Also, in order to exploit findings one will need teams of scientists, engineers, etc., as well as labs, factories, and so forth.
Given that, plus the fact that the company and government also knew the location of the alien ship, shows that it's illogical to act alone on such matters.
Also, there was no risk involved: all he had to do was ask the colony to investigate the site. The problem is that the manager sent in a wildcatter, who ended up entering the alien ship and got infected just like what happened in the first movie.
If you think about it, there was no rush in this matter, unless those who knew about the location of the alien ship thought that if word spread then things would get messed up, e.g., leading to everyone in the colony knowing and then rushing to the site to see who gets to find the ship and get a percentage first. But since the company and government already owned everything on the rock, then all that they needed to do was designate a point man who gets a percentage, and that's Burke, especially given the point that he's part of the board of inquiry.
In which case, Burke would not have needed to contact the colony. Instead, he would have come in with a company ship and probably a team of armed escorts and techs to check out the alien ship.
Sigh.
I think you're confusing acting alone, i.e., without the need for guidance from the company, with acting without the permission of the company.
The first is likely because that's what a point man does. The second is pointless because the company and government own everything on the rock.
Is that more helpful?
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 05, 2023, 08:07:33 PMThe information presented in the movies have always been a bit confusing to me. According to the movies, the company knew of the organisms existence and wanted to secure it, but by part two they've (the Company execs we see) all forgot about it?
It looks like they didn't, which is why they needed Burke to ask people from the colony to check out the location. Had they known, then there'd be no point do that because anyone sent to investigate would end up making the same mistake as the Nostromo crew, which is exactly what happened. They'd have been better off not informing the colony and just send a prepped team to cordon off and investigate the alien ship very carefully.
Also, weirdly enough, the Nostromo computer which is quite advanced such that it could operate the vessel while the crew is asleep, could not do something like automatically send information on important finds to the company, or even record what Ash got about the facehugger. Instead, during the hearing, all we hear from the board is that the Nostromo landed and then took off.
And yet for some weird reason Burke ends up knowing the location of the alien ship. That means it was included in the logs that everyone in the board and even Ripley knew, and yet for another weird reason Ripley doesn't bother to raise it during the hearing, especially given the point that it's the only piece of evidence available that could prove her case.
Worse, she raises it after the hearing, and then accepts van Leuwen's excuse.
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 06, 2023, 06:19:09 AMChrist... 😂 They don't believe there is an alien ship out there, "for reasons unknown", they simply do not believe Ripley at all. They think she's batshit, hence the psychiatric probation. Yeah we're going to check out coordinates and spend resources on someone we've given psychiatric probation, that follows... WY and the ICC are separate entities, Burke only works for the WY.
Oh but that's all cover you see *X-Files music plays*
James Cameron: Burke acted alone.
Er naw!
James Cameron: Wut
The problem is that the company had protocols requiring the crew to investigate distress signal and phenomena which could be monetized. That's why Ash made it clear that if they didn't follow what the company wants, then they lose even benefits and shares from their trip. In addition, Parker even insisted that they'd get full shares from whatever is discovered and monetized.
Thus, we have a company that requires crew to act in the same way that the Nostromo crew did and yet don't believe Ripley. In addition, for some weird reason the only thing that the ship logs recorded are the facts that the Nostromo landed and took off. It doesn't mention where it landed, and even why, as that would reveal that the computer woke the crew because it detected a distress beacon.
Again, that point needs to be stressed: the computer woke the Nostromo crew and reported a distress beacon. For some weird reason, that's not shown in the ship logs, because if it did, Ripley would have stressed that strongly during the hearing, not to mention the landing location, which was also given. And yet that information was not given but the landing location was.
Meanwhile, Burke asks the colony manager to investigate the alien ship location. If that came from the ship logs, then why didn't Ripley even raise it during the hearing? Worse, she did so after she was sentenced, and then accepted van Leuwen's illogical excuse.
At this point, we're beginning to see flaws in the movie involving the Nostromo logs. Apparently, it did contain the landing location. Given that, the claim that Ripley is lying is itself batshit crazy, unless one insists that she managed to program the computer to report a non-existent distress beacon and convince the crew to land, and then during the hearing conveniently didn't talk about the one piece of evidence that would have proven that she wasn't crazy.
Is it possible that, unseen, the board did discuss the landing location? Not likely because in response to Ripley van Leuwen would have mentioned the colony, which likely didn't happen because Ripley found out about the colony only after the hearing was closed.
Last point: from what I know the government and the company are co-owners of the terraforming project and of the rock. I don't know if the ICC is part of that government, but one source argues that it's owned by WY:
https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Interstellar_Commerce_Commission
Either way, I think it works in favor of WY as the government is a partner of the company. Hence, references to bioweapons divisions. And who's the main customer of advanced armaments?
i just often wonder what happened at wy when after 5 years no one could figure out what happened to the nostromo. who ever set up the redirection of the nostromo and placed ash was probably going to still be curious about the signal and what happened to the nostromo and why. in 57 years no one retried to investigate again? what was to prevent a direct visit to the planet surface? a second incident would have made a lot of people even more suspicious. which is why a constant visitation to the planet to study alien tech of the derelict and then placing a colony there to hide the whole thing after many study visitations . just my possable hypothesis. i sometime wonder if cameron wrote it so that exactly this kind of hypothesis would be thought up in a kind of ambiguous way. probably not.
Whoever wrote the special order probably freaked out when the ship never returned and tried to bury any involvement.
If nobody else picked up the signal there would be no reason to check it out.
Cameron wanted people to think the history of who doomed the Nostromo was lost and that Burke was acting alone to try to profit from Ripley's story. Hence he wrote a film where exactly that happened.
👍
no other probes and ships detected the signal?
totally agree on burke acting alone purely on ripley s info
It was deactivated after Alien and before Aliens.
👍
Quote from: ralfy on Jun 06, 2023, 07:15:42 AMI don't know if the ICC is part of that government, but one source argues that it's owned by WY:
EU drivel.
I'm sure there are a few IRL examples of back-scratching between corporations and transit authorities. Probably not literally with bribes but more subtle than that.
I had to check where I was... for a moment I thought this was the Sulaco thread 🤣 ...uncanny!
It appears that no matter how many of us explain the *exact* same thing (multiple times at that!), we're all wrong, we're all fanboys, and a certain individual here alone (out if the entire AvP fandom) seems to be the ONLY one have it aalll figured out... 🤭
Weighing up whether it's still amusing enough to read on, or whether it's became boring enough to warrant the block button and save a headache.. 🤔
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jun 06, 2023, 06:44:57 PMI had to check where I was... for a moment I thought this was the Sulaco thread 🤣 ...uncanny!
It appears that no matter how many of us explain the *exact* same thing (multiple times at that!), we're all wrong, we're all fanboys, and a certain individual here alone (out if the entire AvP fandom) seems to be the ONLY one have it aalll figured out... 🤭
Weighing up whether it's still amusing enough to read on, or whether it's became boring enough to warrant the block button and save a headache.. 🤔
Ooh ooh
Let me guess who it is! That one fan in all of AVP fandom...
It's...
@Necronomicon II right?
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 06, 2023, 02:19:03 PMQuote from: ralfy on Jun 06, 2023, 07:15:42 AMI don't know if the ICC is part of that government, but one source argues that it's owned by WY:
EU drivel.
If it was owned by WY why would Burke care if they got involved in his claim.
Like damn this isn't hard.
Lol Andrew Gaska 🤮, the less said about him the better. The RPG plays fast and loose with canon, as per Cameron they're separate entities. If the ICC and WY were in cahoots Burke wouldn't have to worry about ICC quarantine either, "How can they impound it if they don't know about it?"
Just concede the L, otherwise send all correspondences about all of this to Cameron himself like the angry fans in the 80s.
Quote from: oduodu on Jun 06, 2023, 07:54:44 AMi just often wonder what happened at wy when after 5 years no one could figure out what happened to the nostromo. who ever set up the redirection of the nostromo and placed ash was probably going to still be curious about the signal and what happened to the nostromo and why. in 57 years no one retried to investigate again? what was to prevent a direct visit to the planet surface? a second incident would have made a lot of people even more suspicious. which is why a constant visitation to the planet to study alien tech of the derelict and then placing a colony there to hide the whole thing after many study visitations . just my possable hypothesis. i sometime wonder if cameron wrote it so that exactly this kind of hypothesis would be thought up in a kind of ambiguous way. probably not.
As explained earlier for some weird reason the ship logs only revealed that the Nostromo landed, the landing location, and then took off. It's an advanced computer but it only reports those: nothing on the distress beacon, Ash's analysis of the facehuggers, etc. Also, it also doesn't transmit such information automatically to the company. Bonus: they also didn't have enough lifeboats for the Nostromo crew.
Meanwhile, it was very clear that the company had a policy of taking great effort in acquiring alien stuff, even if it meant making its personnel and even property expendable.
Likely, the beacon stopped working long before the company found the rock.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 06, 2023, 03:43:30 PMI'm sure there are a few IRL examples of back-scratching between corporations and transit authorities. Probably not literally with bribes but more subtle than that.
You won't believe the number of real-world examples of not only corporations working with transit authorities but working with governments. In this case, look up the "military industrial complex". That shoudn't be surprising as there are interviews revealing that the movie was linked to the Vietnam war.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jun 06, 2023, 06:44:57 PMI had to check where I was... for a moment I thought this was the Sulaco thread 🤣 ...uncanny!
It appears that no matter how many of us explain the *exact* same thing (multiple times at that!), we're all wrong, we're all fanboys, and a certain individual here alone (out if the entire AvP fandom) seems to be the ONLY one have it aalll figured out... 🤭
Weighing up whether it's still amusing enough to read on, or whether it's became boring enough to warrant the block button and save a headache.. 🤔
I'm willing to join fanbois if I can be proven wrong. The problem is that "the *exact* same" you and others have been giving have been proven to be questionable. One even tried to pretend he was using ChatGPT and posting the same error repeatedly as he couldn't counter my points. Given that trolling, I had to use the ignore function. Meanwhile, another kept wishing for the return of another forum member; apparently, he couldn't stand the heat. It's like the other who just sighed. No analysis whatsoever. And now one argues that it's become "boring". If so, then why are you still posting here?
To recap, this is a thread meant to analyze the movie content. That means scrutinizing the content and debating on the rationality of the storyline, characters' behavior, the context of their actions, and so on.
Don't believe me? Go back to the first post of the thread, which even looks at the film in light of the Reaganite era. From what I remember, that was the first time that the U.S. promoted a combination of neoconservatism and neoliberalism, and which every subsequent admin has followed since.
If you like, I can make this even more interesting by connecting my claim that Burke didn't work alone with those ideologies. LOL.
This is why we need SM.
"Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?" 😑
Other points to consider on Burke not working alone:
One counter-argument is that the company and government simply want to declare Ripley crazy and end the investigation. That makes no sense because during the same investigation they wanted to sue Ripley for damages by referring to the loss of the ship and its "precious" cargo. Ripley even faulted them on that, implying that they are simply after money.
But the company gets nothing from Ripley because even her backpay wouldn't cover the losses, but they have one source of information that can help them not only recover that but even potentially earn large amounts of money: the flight recorder.
As shown in this thread, and ironically by showing a screen cap of what Lambert was viewing, such logs don't simply state that a ship landed and took off. It also records course or direction and location, among other things.
That means the whole board plus Ripley plus investigators had access to that. Given such, why would the company and government not bother to investigate the landing location if what was found could be potentially profitable? In which case, it would make sense for them to do so, which is one reason why Burke wasn't working alone.
Did Burke work alone because he wanted to earn everything? That also makes no sense because the idea of getting a percentage was already known even as early as the first movie. The Nostromo crew was guaranteed a percentage and not full ownership of what they discovered, and likely because they were on company time and using company assets, like the ship that they were navigating. The same would have been known also by Burke and even the Jordens and the colony manager. This was explained more than once in this thread. BTW, this takes place in the real world, including references to mineral rights and intellectual property ownership.
This can be seen in light of one counter-argument, i..e, when Burke instructed Bishop to prepare the facehuggers for transit to company labs, Burke was still acting alone because he wanted everything for himself and then rent the company labs. That make no sense for two reasons: if the company and government have "mineral rights" to the rock then that means they own everything on it, including the alien ship, so Burke can't own it all. Second, he can only monetize by using company resources, which means the bulk of revenues will still go to the company; in addition, due to the same mineral rights he can't choose another company, i.e., if there is any. Besides, he was working on company time. LOL.
Also, the company and government has a long history of monetizing and weaponizing. That is, the company developers, sells, and earns, and the government purchases and uses. This explains the special order in the first movie and references to bioweapons divisions in the second. For those who wonder if this takes place in the real world, look up "military industrial complex." And following the video first posted, you may see the same in light of even the Vietnam war and Reagan.
In which case, it makes zero sense for both not to do something as easy as ask the colony to investigate the landing site, especially given the fact that that's what Burke easily did.
There's another point that wasn't discussed: the belief that Burke handled everything by himself to prove that he worked alone, which included comandeering a military vessel and ordering a military contingent around, versus Ripley's point that the mission is under military jurisidiction. If Ripley is right, and that's implicit because Burke gives no counter except that "grunts" like Hicks aren't capable of working as the new commander, then that means that Burke was obviously not working alone. Rather, the government and company made him the point man, and then the former sent a military vessel and contingent to escort him. Both instructed the military fully about what to encounter given Ripley's brief, and was tasked to rescue colonists and their "juicy daughters" (LOL). Burke's job was to recover alien organisms and artefacts with Bishop's help.
Finally, I'll leave it up to you to consider the asides to this issue, such as Ripley's failure to raise the information on the alien ship information, as it's the only piece of evidence left that supports her case, and it was known by the board because Burke had it.
Some more things to consider, but likely not important for most:
- Arcturians vs. finding no indigenous life-forms in hundreds of world;
- the terraforming colony project owned by the company only or a joint project between colony and government, in light of the claim that the company was working independently and that the government countered it;
- transit authorities working independently of government or with the government;
- the belief that the ICC works independently or was formed by W-Y;
- "bug hunts" as "hunting" for insects and faunas (like Arcturians?), which is something that scientists and techs specializing in pest control should do and not heavily armed Marined contingents stationed in war ships; and
- the "blue collar" view of space truckers, grunts, and wildcatters, either wanting to finish their work, cash out on work and whatever they discover (except for the grunts), and retire peacefully vs. "white collar" suits who want to exploit them.
The last point can also be seen in light of the video shared by the OP, which refers to the Reagan admin.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jun 07, 2023, 12:35:13 AM"Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?" 😑
Apparently, they did, and even across the board. Recall that the only piece of evidence that would have supported Ripley's case was known by her and the board, and yet she doesn't raise it during the hearing. Why do we know that? Because she does so only after, which is why she is shocked by van Leuwen's response about the colony being there for decades.
That also implies that she didn't engage in due diligence, i.e., research on what happened during the decades she was out, especially about the rock where they landed. Keep in mind that when one is accused of various serious crimes, and in this case at least the deaths of crew mates and the destruction of a very expensive ship, and its very expensive cargo, then one doesn't just blurt out the same storyline repeatedly (which is, ironically, what I've been seeing in this thread concerning the claim that Burke worked alone) without gathering evidence to prove one's case. And that included the flight recorder where Burke got the landing location and which the board discussed during the hearing.
That's why I kept mentioning earlier that she probably needed a lawyer. Reminds me of Burke being chummy with Ripley, and Ripley allowing it.
And what's this about a court of inquiry passing on judgment?
QuoteOne counter-argument is that the company and government simply want to declare Ripley crazy and end the investigation. That makes no sense because during the same investigation they wanted to sue Ripley for damages by referring to the loss of the ship and its "precious" cargo. Ripley even faulted them on that, implying that they are simply after money.
At no point is she being sued for damages.
QuoteDid Burke work alone because he wanted to earn everything? That also makes no sense because the idea of getting a percentage was already known even as early as the first movie.
Not everything. Just more. He even says this - if
too many people get involved, the pool dilutes.
Please watch the movie. It's very helpful when trying to tell people what the film does or doesn't say.
I ran out of popcorn... I'll be back...
Quote from: ralfy on Jun 07, 2023, 01:15:37 AMcomandeering a military vessel and ordering a military contingent around
:laugh:
Imagine reading this thread and thinking anyone is saying Burke is in charge of anything.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 07, 2023, 04:43:37 AMImagine reading this thread and thinking anyone is saying Burke is in charge of anything.
I stopped reading anything longer than 3 to 4 sentences ages ago. I'm just here to see how long this continues now lmao
I didn't realize until today that I was apparently pretending to be ChatGPT. That sounds like a lot of work.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 07, 2023, 04:55:08 AMI didn't realize until today that I was apparently pretending to be ChatGPT. That sounds like a lot of work.
How does ChatGPT feel about this accusation? Perhaps you should ask...
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 07, 2023, 04:05:50 AMQuote from: ralfy on Jun 07, 2023, 01:15:37 AMcomandeering a military vessel and ordering a military contingent around
:laugh:
Yeah this has spilled over into gish gallop territory I'm afraid. 😂 SM would just repeat what we've all said but with far more sarcasm.
"Said license is hereby suspended indefinitely. No criminal charges will be filed against you at this time. You are released on your own recognizance for six months of psychometric probation, to include monthly review by an ICC psychiatric technician."
There are no lawsuits there. I think. Maybe. 🤔
Also Burke wants exclusive rights. He says this.
It's just embarrassing at this point. 😂
off topis question:
how did burke have the authority to re instate ripley s license?
He spoke to people who could.
ty sil
i asked google bard
https://bard.google.com/
the same question abd it answered:
Burke was able to reinstate Ripley's pilot license by using his connections within the company. He was a high-ranking executive at Weyland-Yutani, and he was able to pull some strings to get Ripley's license reinstated. This was despite the fact that Ripley had been grounded for five years after the events of the first movie.
Burke's reasons for reinstating Ripley's license were not entirely altruistic. He knew that Ripley was the only one who had ever survived an encounter with an Alien, and he wanted her on the team that was being sent to investigate the colony on LV-426. He also knew that Ripley would be a valuable asset, as she had extensive experience in space flight and combat.
Ripley was initially reluctant to join the mission, but she eventually agreed after Burke promised to reinstate her license. She also knew that it was her duty to help the colonists on LV-426, as they were in grave danger.
Ripley's decision to join the mission proved to be a wise one. She was instrumental in the team's success, and she helped to save the lives of many people. Burke, on the other hand, was not so lucky. He was killed by an Alien, and his death was a major setback for Weyland-Yutani.
The events of Aliens show that even the most powerful people can be brought down by their own hubris. Burke's arrogance led him to underestimate Ripley, and it ultimately cost him his life.
i asked bard to suggest a plot for an alien franchise sequel:
Sure, here is a possible plot for an Alien franchise sequel:
The film opens with a scene of a Weyland-Yutani research facility on a remote planet. The facility is being overrun by Xenomorphs, and the few remaining scientists are desperately trying to escape. They are eventually successful, but they are forced to leave behind a valuable cache of data on the Xenomorph species.
The film then cuts to a few years later, where a group of young colonists are setting up a new settlement on a nearby planet. The colonists are unaware of the danger that they are in, and they quickly find themselves under attack by the Xenomorphs.
The colonists are forced to fight for their survival, and they eventually manage to destroy the Xenomorph hive. However, they are not victorious. The Xenomorphs have already spread to other planets, and the war between humans and Xenomorphs has only just begun.
Here are some of the key elements that I would include in this sequel:
A strong female protagonist. The Alien franchise has always been known for its strong female characters, and I would continue this tradition in the sequel. The protagonist would be a young woman who is resourceful, intelligent, and brave.
A sense of dread and suspense. The Alien films are known for their ability to create a sense of dread and suspense, and I would want to capture this feeling in the sequel. The audience would be kept on the edge of their seats, wondering what is going to happen next.
A visually stunning film. The Alien films are also known for their stunning visuals, and I would want to make sure that the sequel is visually stunning as well. The film would feature stunning cinematography, special effects, and creature design.
I think this is a possible plot for an Alien franchise sequel that would be faithful to the spirit of the original films. It would feature a strong female protagonist, a sense of dread and suspense, and visually stunning visuals. I think this would be a film that fans of the franchise would love.
and for a prequel:
Sure, here is a possible plot for an Alien franchise prequel:
The year is 2122. The Weyland-Yutani Corporation is conducting a mining operation on the planet LV-426. The miners have been on the planet for several months, and they have yet to find any valuable resources.
One day, the miners are drilling into a new area of the planet when they accidentally awaken a dormant Xenomorph hive. The Xenomorphs quickly attack the miners, and the miners are forced to flee.
The miners are pursued by the Xenomorphs, and they are forced to take shelter in a nearby abandoned facility. The miners are trapped in the facility, and they must find a way to survive as they are hunted by the Xenomorphs.
The miners eventually find a way to escape the facility, but they are not out of danger yet. The Xenomorphs are still on the planet, and the miners must find a way to get off the planet before they are killed.
The miners eventually find a way to get off the planet, but they are changed by their experience. They have seen the true horror of the Xenomorphs, and they know that the Weyland-Yutani Corporation is not to be trusted.
This is just a possible plot, of course. There are many other ways to tell a prequel story in the Alien universe. But I think this one would be a good way to introduce the Xenomorphs and the Weyland-Yutani Corporation to a new audience.
Here are some additional details that could be explored in the prequel:
The origins of the Xenomorphs: Where did they come from? How did they evolve?
The purpose of the Xenomorph hive: What is the hive trying to achieve?
The relationship between the Xenomorphs and the Engineers: Are the Xenomorphs a weapon created by the Engineers? Or are they something else entirely?
The role of the Weyland-Yutani Corporation: What does the Weyland-Yutani Corporation know about the Xenomorphs? And what are they planning to do with them?
I think a prequel that explores these questions would be a great addition to the Alien franchise. It would give fans a deeper understanding of the universe and the creatures that inhabit it.
just thought it was interesting to note.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 07, 2023, 08:12:44 AMHe spoke to people who could.
If any case can be made that he wasn't working alone, it would be due to that. Then again, it's also possible that he discussed the matter with some bureaucrat in HR who basically shrugged and said "sure, whatever, but if she goes nuts again and we lose another freighter, it's on you" before rubber-stamping their approval. No co-conspirators needed there.
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 07, 2023, 05:47:59 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jun 07, 2023, 04:55:08 AMI didn't realize until today that I was apparently pretending to be ChatGPT. That sounds like a lot of work.
How does ChatGPT feel about this accusation? Perhaps you should ask...
Dear Engineer,
I wanted to take a moment to address a recent topic of discussion regarding a fellow forum member, Local Trouble, and his use of OpenAI's large language model, ChatGPT.
Local Trouble is not attempting to impersonate ChatGPT but rather is utilizing the AI to help articulate his thoughts and points of view more effectively. This is especially useful in ongoing discussions where clear, concise, and well-structured arguments can be vital.
The use of ChatGPT provides Local Trouble with a resource to create more detailed responses without the time and effort it would require to manually type out a lengthy post. In fact, it would be quite a bizarre and unnecessarily time-consuming endeavor for a person to masquerade as an AI by painstakingly writing out comprehensive responses.
Moreover, it's important to recognize the capacity of AI like ChatGPT. It can generate in-depth and nuanced language patterns based on an extensive database. However, it's not sentient or capable of independent thought. When Local Trouble uses ChatGPT, he's inputting his own thoughts and ideas, and the AI is merely helping to express those in a more refined manner.
While the use of AI can enhance our interactions and provide an interesting dynamic to our discussions, it is always essential to remember that it's the person behind the AI who drives the conversation and is responsible for the thoughts being communicated.
I hope this clarifies any concerns you may have had. Let's continue to engage in healthy discourse and remember to respect the individuality of each member of our community.
Best,
ChatGPT
its a great resource no doubt. can responses to a thread like this be automated from a chatbot ?
star trek: computer: ........
Great resource... ::)
or maybe not ....
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 07, 2023, 11:10:39 AMQuote from: SiL on Jun 07, 2023, 08:12:44 AMHe spoke to people who could.
If any case can be made that he wasn't working alone, it would be due to that. Then again, it's also possible that he discussed the matter with some bureaucrat in HR who basically shrugged and said "sure, whatever, but if she goes nuts again and we lose another freighter, it's on you" before rubber-stamping their approval. No co-conspirators needed there.
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 07, 2023, 05:47:59 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jun 07, 2023, 04:55:08 AMI didn't realize until today that I was apparently pretending to be ChatGPT. That sounds like a lot of work.
How does ChatGPT feel about this accusation? Perhaps you should ask...
Dear Engineer,
I wanted to take a moment to address a recent topic of discussion regarding a fellow forum member, Local Trouble, and his use of OpenAI's large language model, ChatGPT.
Local Trouble is not attempting to impersonate ChatGPT but rather is utilizing the AI to help articulate his thoughts and points of view more effectively. This is especially useful in ongoing discussions where clear, concise, and well-structured arguments can be vital.
The use of ChatGPT provides Local Trouble with a resource to create more detailed responses without the time and effort it would require to manually type out a lengthy post. In fact, it would be quite a bizarre and unnecessarily time-consuming endeavor for a person to masquerade as an AI by painstakingly writing out comprehensive responses.
Moreover, it's important to recognize the capacity of AI like ChatGPT. It can generate in-depth and nuanced language patterns based on an extensive database. However, it's not sentient or capable of independent thought. When Local Trouble uses ChatGPT, he's inputting his own thoughts and ideas, and the AI is merely helping to express those in a more refined manner.
While the use of AI can enhance our interactions and provide an interesting dynamic to our discussions, it is always essential to remember that it's the person behind the AI who drives the conversation and is responsible for the thoughts being communicated.
I hope this clarifies any concerns you may have had. Let's continue to engage in healthy discourse and remember to respect the individuality of each member of our community.
Best,
ChatGPT
Lmao
Now you've got me choking on my popcorn 😂
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jun 07, 2023, 12:15:45 PMGreat resource... ::)
Can't you open your heart to our AI friend?
who david?
lol
just kidding
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 07, 2023, 01:19:29 PMQuote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jun 07, 2023, 12:15:45 PMGreat resource... ::)
Can't you open your heart to our AI friend?
To be fair, the AI doesn't make me want to scoop my eyeballs out of their sockets with a rusty teaspoon to prevent reading its comments... that can be considered a win in this thread 😂
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 07, 2023, 01:11:12 PMLmao
Now you've got me choking on my popcorn 😂
You know, by quoting me like that you're going to make ralfy see my post despite him putting me on ignore.
Spoiler
Well played.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 07, 2023, 01:46:23 PMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 07, 2023, 01:11:12 PMLmao
Now you've got me choking on my popcorn 😂
You know, by quoting me like that you're going to make ralfy see my post despite him putting me on ignore.
Spoiler
Well played.
Then it's worth the effort lol
Cameron made the movie, he wrote the screenplay, he directed it. He has stated Burke was working alone.
This is how he's written the story. WY didn't build a colony right next to the Derelict on purpose and then ignore the Derelict for 20 years. Cameron explains this by showing the Company don't believe Ripley.
Yet there is still this one person who's refusing to have any of it! It's just bloody mindedness now.
Burke was working alone, the Company don't believe Ripley. Weyland Yutani from the first 3 movies (as they cease to exist by the fourth) are NOT made out in any way to be cartoon super villans obsessed with the Xenomorph. Only in the 3rd movie do they show interest as by then the realise the Xenomorph is real and obtainable on Fury.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jun 07, 2023, 04:29:20 PMOnly in the 3rd movie do they show interest as by then the realise the Xenomorph is real and obtainable on Fury.
Yes, by the third movie, they actually had incontrovertible evidence of the aliens' existence in the form of transmissions from the Sulaco and the EEV.
This quite possibly included everything transmitted from the marines' helmet cameras to the APC before its destruction, to the final fight between Ripley and the queen in the hangar bay, to the cryotube neuroscans of the facehugger and queen embryo.
It all got sent back to the network.
Makes me more worried about Alien: Romulus now, seeing as it takes place between Alien and Aliens. How would they have acquired the eggs? Amanda Ripley? The Torrens maybe?
I'm sure they'll come up with something utterly contrived and lore-breaking once again.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 07, 2023, 06:53:33 PMMakes me more worried about Alien: Romulus now, seeing as it takes place between Alien and Aliens. How would they have acquired the eggs? Amanda Ripley? The Torrens maybe?
Yea I have virtually zero confidence in that movie lol the more I hear about it, the less interested I am tbh...
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 07, 2023, 07:12:23 PMI'm sure they'll come up with something utterly contrived and lore-breaking once again.
I'll never understand why it's so difficult for writers to think a little bit and not contrive something. If dorks on these forums (I mean that positively ;))can come up with explanations, surely a paid and "gifted" (are they really though?)writer working in Hollywood can do one up on that. They never seem to. It's like no one cares.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 07, 2023, 08:05:31 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jun 07, 2023, 07:12:23 PMI'm sure they'll come up with something utterly contrived and lore-breaking once again.
I'll never understand why it's so difficult for writers to think a little bit and not contrive something. If dorks on these forums (I mean that positively ;))can come up with explanations, surely a paid and "gifted" (are they really though?)writer working in Hollywood can do one up on that. They never seem to. It's like no one cares.
They don't care.
They don't typically hire the top talent.
They hire hire the cheapest willing person.
That's how we ended up with novels like "colony war" and "bug hunt."
Talents like Alex white are rare by comparison.
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 07, 2023, 08:16:46 PMQuote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 07, 2023, 08:05:31 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jun 07, 2023, 07:12:23 PMI'm sure they'll come up with something utterly contrived and lore-breaking once again.
I'll never understand why it's so difficult for writers to think a little bit and not contrive something. If dorks on these forums (I mean that positively ;))can come up with explanations, surely a paid and "gifted" (are they really though?)writer working in Hollywood can do one up on that. They never seem to. It's like no one cares.
They don't care.
They don't typically hire the top talent.
They hire hire the cheapest willing person.
That's how we ended up with novels like "colony war" and "bug hunt."
Talents like Alex white are rare by comparison.
Screw faster than light travel, we need to invent a way to clone Alex White and have his memory wiped.
Lol honestly peeps are making mountains out of the Romulus title and inferring Ridley mythos shenanigans 😂. What Fede has come up with is pretty natural and not lore breaking/contrived. I was like, why the hell didn't anyone else notice that/pick that up? It follows it's just a matter of execution at this point.
I'm wondering if it's a Halloween (2018)type of movie that they're going for.
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 07, 2023, 10:39:50 PMLol honestly peeps are making mountains out of the Romulus title and inferring Ridley mythos shenanigans 😂. What Fede has come up with is pretty natural and not lore breaking/contrived. I was like, why the hell didn't anyone else notice that/pick that up? It follows it's just a matter of execution at this point.
I despise the idea of another story being shoved in between alien and aliens. Im not even looking at the title "Romulus" tbh (although, that gives me bad vibes too, but I recognize it's superficial and could be totally unrelated to the prequel lore).
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 07, 2023, 10:39:50 PMLol honestly peeps are making mountains out of the Romulus title and inferring Ridley mythos shenanigans 😂. What Fede has come up with is pretty natural and not lore breaking/contrived. I was like, why the hell didn't anyone else notice that/pick that up? It follows it's just a matter of execution at this point.
Tell us more! 😁
Again there's a lot of real estate that's been established in that 57 year gap, however it follows much more naturally than Out of the Shadows et al. I'm sure many groaned about the idea of playing Amanda Ripley in Isolation but it turned out pretty nice. Hard to please everyone at this point though. Plenty of the comics that are beloved are rife with contrivances, however I'll take what Fede's cooked up over all of them. 😅
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 08, 2023, 01:52:28 AMAgain there's a lot of real estate that's been established in that 57 year gap, however it follows much more naturally than Out of the Shadows et al. I'm sure many groaned about the idea of playing Amanda Ripley in Isolation but it turned out pretty nice. Hard to please everyone at this point though. Plenty of the comics that are beloved are rife with contrivances, however I'll take what Fede's cooked up over all of them. 😅
Hoping we get another use of a drone camera like we did for Evil Dead Rise. Maybe as a way of gliding through the ship.
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 08, 2023, 01:52:28 AMAgain there's a lot of real estate that's been established in that 57 year gap, however it follows much more naturally than Out of the Shadows et al. I'm sure many groaned about the idea of playing Amanda Ripley in Isolation but it turned out pretty nice. Hard to please everyone at this point though. Plenty of the comics that are beloved are rife with contrivances, however I'll take what Fede's cooked up over all of them. 😅
I'd rather take none of the stuff in that 57 year period and move beyond to the time after alien3.
I'll admit, I rolled my eyes at the premise of isolation and was pleasantly surprised by how it turned out. That was once out of dozens of attempts. Im not holding my breath that Alvarez is going to be the exception to the rule in the same way isolation was. If it's good, it's good, and I'll admit I was wrong like I did with isolation. But at the moment my expectations are rock bottom.
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 07, 2023, 06:16:10 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jun 07, 2023, 04:05:50 AMQuote from: ralfy on Jun 07, 2023, 01:15:37 AMcomandeering a military vessel and ordering a military contingent around
:laugh:
Yeah this has spilled over into gish gallop territory I'm afraid. 😂 SM would just repeat what we've all said but with far more sarcasm.
"Said license is hereby suspended indefinitely. No criminal charges will be filed against you at this time. You are released on your own recognizance for six months of psychometric probation, to include monthly review by an ICC psychiatric technician."
There are no lawsuits there. I think. Maybe. 🤔
Also Burke wants exclusive rights. He says this.
Gish gallop, my foot. Every point I gave is backed by the movie and what takes place in reality.
I have nothing to say about what you quoted because it doesn't counter my arguments. What's important, though, is that a board of inquiry isn't exactly the same as a criminal court. Additional points:
QuoteThe shuttle's flight recorder corroborates some elements of your account. That the Nostromo set down on LV-426, an unsurveyed planet, at that time. That repairs were made. That it resumed its course and was subsequently set
for self-destruct. By you. For reasons unknown.
If a flight recorder can record the planet on which they landed then it would have also recorded the landing location. That's where Burke got his info. And yet that's not mentioned during the hearing and wasn't even raised by Ripley during the hearing:
QuoteAre there any species like this 'hostile organism' on LV-426?
...
No. It's a rock. No indigenous life larger than a simple virus.
Wait, so they already analyzed the planet? Perhaps they have something there to investigate the landing location? Crickets from Ripley.
QuoteIt did not, however, contain any entries concerning the hostile life form you allegedly picked up.
Of course, it won't. That's why you need to check the landing location. But crickets once more from Ripley.
QuoteTo be perfectly frank, we've surveyed over three hundred worlds and no one's ever reported a creature which, using
your words... (read from Ripley's statement) ...'gestates in a living human host' and has 'concentrated molecular acid for blood.'
But you did find Arcturians, right? Of course, Ripley won't mention that because she wouldn't have known. Didn't do due diligence, remember? As I said, she probably needed a lawyer with a paralegal team. Instead, all she had was this guy:
QuoteYou had them eating out of your hand, kiddo.
who was part of the board and talking with the person being questioned!
QuoteSaid license is hereby suspended indefinitely. No criminal charges will be filed at this time and you are released on own recognizance for a six month period of psychometric probation, to include monthly review by an ICC psychiatric
tech...
From a board of inquiry, and with no defense lawyer?
QuoteYou sent them out there and you didn't even warn them, Burke. Why didn't you warn them?
...
Look, maybe the thing didn't even exist, right? And if I'd made it a major security situation, the Administration would've stepped in. Then no exclusive rights, nothing.
However,
QuoteYou know, Burke, I don't know which species is worse. You don't see them screwing each other over for a f**king percentage.
and
QuoteWell, the corporation co-financed that colony with the Colonial Administration, against mineral rights. We're getting into a lot of terraforming...'Building Better Worlds.'
Why is Ripley right and Burke wrong? Because it means the company owns what's underground but the Colonial Admin owns what's above. That means not only Burke but even the company gets nothing exclusive from surface rights. But the government still needs W-Y to develop tech from any findings, so a partnership will always exist between company, government, prospectors, and managers.
The way I see it, we have a planet that's considered the territory of the government and a company given mineral rights. The miners need a base for operations, which means terraforming accomplished through company assets and personnel and backed by government. In which case, the Jordens would have received a percentage from what they found, and Burke. As for the Nostromo crew, it would have been a percentage from what the company does as it monetizes the find.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jun 07, 2023, 07:39:30 AMIt's just embarrassing at this point. 😂
Definitely! We're seeing the script of this movie unraveling, and it's even connected to the video presented by the OP.
The Reagan era was typified by the rise of the military industrial complex which Eisenhower warned about decades earlier, but this time linked with neoliberalism, which is characterized by maximization of profits and monetization.
That's clear in the movie, with W-Y and government partners the common demoninator across even the first and two movies, besides Ripley and the alien, of course.
It's nice to imagine that one should look at only characters like Ash and Burke at play, but one realizes that the video shared by the OP says a lot more.
Quote from: oduodu on Jun 07, 2023, 08:16:49 AMty sil
i asked google bard
https://bard.google.com/
the same question abd it answered:
Burke was able to reinstate Ripley's pilot license by using his connections within the company. He was a high-ranking executive at Weyland-Yutani, and he was able to pull some strings to get Ripley's license reinstated. This was despite the fact that Ripley had been grounded for five years after the events of the first movie.
Burke's reasons for reinstating Ripley's license were not entirely altruistic. He knew that Ripley was the only one who had ever survived an encounter with an Alien, and he wanted her on the team that was being sent to investigate the colony on LV-426. He also knew that Ripley would be a valuable asset, as she had extensive experience in space flight and combat.
Ripley was initially reluctant to join the mission, but she eventually agreed after Burke promised to reinstate her license. She also knew that it was her duty to help the colonists on LV-426, as they were in grave danger.
Ripley's decision to join the mission proved to be a wise one. She was instrumental in the team's success, and she helped to save the lives of many people. Burke, on the other hand, was not so lucky. He was killed by an Alien, and his death was a major setback for Weyland-Yutani.
The events of Aliens show that even the most powerful people can be brought down by their own hubris. Burke's arrogance led him to underestimate Ripley, and it ultimately cost him his life.
i asked bard to suggest a plot for an alien franchise sequel:
Sure, here is a possible plot for an Alien franchise sequel:
The film opens with a scene of a Weyland-Yutani research facility on a remote planet. The facility is being overrun by Xenomorphs, and the few remaining scientists are desperately trying to escape. They are eventually successful, but they are forced to leave behind a valuable cache of data on the Xenomorph species.
The film then cuts to a few years later, where a group of young colonists are setting up a new settlement on a nearby planet. The colonists are unaware of the danger that they are in, and they quickly find themselves under attack by the Xenomorphs.
The colonists are forced to fight for their survival, and they eventually manage to destroy the Xenomorph hive. However, they are not victorious. The Xenomorphs have already spread to other planets, and the war between humans and Xenomorphs has only just begun.
Here are some of the key elements that I would include in this sequel:
A strong female protagonist. The Alien franchise has always been known for its strong female characters, and I would continue this tradition in the sequel. The protagonist would be a young woman who is resourceful, intelligent, and brave.
A sense of dread and suspense. The Alien films are known for their ability to create a sense of dread and suspense, and I would want to capture this feeling in the sequel. The audience would be kept on the edge of their seats, wondering what is going to happen next.
A visually stunning film. The Alien films are also known for their stunning visuals, and I would want to make sure that the sequel is visually stunning as well. The film would feature stunning cinematography, special effects, and creature design.
I think this is a possible plot for an Alien franchise sequel that would be faithful to the spirit of the original films. It would feature a strong female protagonist, a sense of dread and suspense, and visually stunning visuals. I think this would be a film that fans of the franchise would love.
and for a prequel:
Sure, here is a possible plot for an Alien franchise prequel:
The year is 2122. The Weyland-Yutani Corporation is conducting a mining operation on the planet LV-426. The miners have been on the planet for several months, and they have yet to find any valuable resources.
One day, the miners are drilling into a new area of the planet when they accidentally awaken a dormant Xenomorph hive. The Xenomorphs quickly attack the miners, and the miners are forced to flee.
The miners are pursued by the Xenomorphs, and they are forced to take shelter in a nearby abandoned facility. The miners are trapped in the facility, and they must find a way to survive as they are hunted by the Xenomorphs.
The miners eventually find a way to escape the facility, but they are not out of danger yet. The Xenomorphs are still on the planet, and the miners must find a way to get off the planet before they are killed.
The miners eventually find a way to get off the planet, but they are changed by their experience. They have seen the true horror of the Xenomorphs, and they know that the Weyland-Yutani Corporation is not to be trusted.
This is just a possible plot, of course. There are many other ways to tell a prequel story in the Alien universe. But I think this one would be a good way to introduce the Xenomorphs and the Weyland-Yutani Corporation to a new audience.
Here are some additional details that could be explored in the prequel:
The origins of the Xenomorphs: Where did they come from? How did they evolve?
The purpose of the Xenomorph hive: What is the hive trying to achieve?
The relationship between the Xenomorphs and the Engineers: Are the Xenomorphs a weapon created by the Engineers? Or are they something else entirely?
The role of the Weyland-Yutani Corporation: What does the Weyland-Yutani Corporation know about the Xenomorphs? And what are they planning to do with them?
I think a prequel that explores these questions would be a great addition to the Alien franchise. It would give fans a deeper understanding of the universe and the creatures that inhabit it.
just thought it was interesting to note.
A high-ranking executive would have not been able to act alone in that case, as he would have had to give reason to reverse the decision of the board, which includes other high-ranking executives from government and company.
Also, "connections" refer to cronyism, where people in high positions do favors for each other, and for a common cause. Logically, that would mean that they were all in on it, and that Burke was acting as a front for them.
Additional points:
It was actually pointless to ask Ripley for help because all she could give them she already did in the report to the board and in the brief for the Marines. As depicted in the movie, anything new they needed to know they found out on the planet.
What was also revealed in the movie was that Ripley became a valuable asset not because of space flight experience and all that (I don't think she's in the military, so the point about being trained in combat's questionable) but because the team sent turned out to be incompetent. They didn't have a layout of the colony, which is why they had to draw out blueprints upon arrival (and led by Ripley) and didn't become aware of the nuclear reactor issue until she reminded them.
The meeting between Burke, Gorman, and Ripley was weird:
QuoteLook, we don't know what's going on out there. It may just be a down transmitter. But if it's not, I want you there...as an advisor. That's all.
Ripley: An advisor for what? Oh, you mean they were probably infected and overwhelmed by aliens? So, how did they find out about the alien ship? Was it from the landing location in the flight recorder that I also ignored during the hearing?
What do you want to do with Gorman and his team? Rescue the colonists? Is that the only reason?
QuoteYou wouldn't be going in with the troops. I can guarantee your safety.
Of course, that can't happen; otherwise, we wouldn't have an exciting movie featuring Ripley.
QuoteThese Colonial Marines are some tough hombres, and they're packing state-of-the-art firepower. Nothing they can't handle...right, Lieutenant? GORMAN
We're trained to deal with these kinds of situations.
Ripley: What kind of situations? And why is "state-of-the-art firepower" needed?
QuoteWhat about you? What's your interest in this?
Well, the corporation co-financed that colony with the Colonial Administration, against mineral rights. We're getting into a lot of terraforming...'Building Better Worlds.'
Ripley: In short, both of you only want to ensure the protection of colonists. Against what, Burke? How about you, Lt. Gorman? What has Burke told you?
QuoteWhat if I said I could get you reinstated as a flight officer? And that the company has agreed to pick up your contract?
Ripley: That would mean that you'd have to inform the board about this because that's the only way you can reverse the sentence? Also, what assurances do I have that you will do those if I follow you?
Also, "has agreed to pick up" my contract? That means they know about this?
Last points:
If you think about it, if all of these plus more point to the argument that Burke couldn't have acted alone, then there was no need for Ripley to accompany them or even join them on the ground. Either her full report to the board and her brief would have been enough.
Also, I think Burke was actually very capable but dumb in one regard: there was no need to contact the colony because they'd likely send an wildcatter who would only make matters worse. I think following is character of being scheming and calculating he would send a team to secure the landing location, and follow Ripley's instructions very carefully in order to prevent infection leading to mission failure.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jun 07, 2023, 04:29:20 PMCameron made the movie, he wrote the screenplay, he directed it. He has stated Burke was working alone.
This is how he's written the story. WY didn't build a colony right next to the Derelict on purpose and then ignore the Derelict for 20 years. Cameron explains this by showing the Company don't believe Ripley.
Yet there is still this one person who's refusing to have any of it! It's just bloody mindedness now.
Burke was working alone, the Company don't believe Ripley. Weyland Yutani from the first 3 movies (as they cease to exist by the fourth) are NOT made out in any way to be cartoon super villans obsessed with the Xenomorph. Only in the 3rd movie do they show interest as by then the realise the Xenomorph is real and obtainable on Fury.
The problem is that the story contains multiple points that work against that claim. The most important one is the source of the landing site, and then linked with what Ripley said about bioweapons development, what happened during the first movie, the role of the Marines who have been under similar "situations" and employed "state-of-the-art firepower" against whatever they encountered that required "state-of-the-art firepower," and both mineral and surface rights.
Put simply, it would have highly illogical for Burke to have acted alone because the company didn't care because both movies show that the company expends a lot of resources, even sacrificing their own personnel and assets, to find and use alien tech and organisms.
Given that, what's more likely is that the company only wanted to show Ripley that they didn't care, just as Burke did similar with his awkward points (that it's just a downed transmitter but in case it isn't, we have all these firepower to handle whatever caused it, so don't worry, Ripley; who knows, you probably don't even have to join us on the ground).
Last point: you don't need to be a "cartoon villain" to sacrifice personnel and assets for monetary gain, as that happened across the first three movies, with the crew and assets sacrificed based on a special order, that unbelievably forgotten as the company explored even more worlds and employed heavily armed Marines to deal with special "situations", and the same giving instructions to the prisoners about what to do. Why? Because it happens in the real world, and if the OP is right, the movie is patterned after that, from Reagan's admin to the Vietnam War.
Think about it: what you think is outrageous is actually true, and is in no way cartoonish.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 07, 2023, 08:05:31 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jun 07, 2023, 07:12:23 PMI'm sure they'll come up with something utterly contrived and lore-breaking once again.
I'll never understand why it's so difficult for writers to think a little bit and not contrive something. If dorks on these forums (I mean that positively ;))can come up with explanations, surely a paid and "gifted" (are they really though?)writer working in Hollywood can do one up on that. They never seem to. It's like no one cares.
I'm very certain that Cameron worked hard on this movie, and I appreciate what he did, but it's very difficult to get rid of contrived events. In this case,
The flight recorder is supposed to contain the location of the landing site, but for some weird reason Ripley does not raise it during the hearing.
Burke comes up with a very weird explanation of why they have to send a team to the colony and why Ripley should join them. It's as if he wants to show Ripley that they still don't believe her but that they'll send a heavily armed group because they do. (I specifically refer to "they" because not only Burke but Gorman knows, and Gorman has higher-ups.)
Altogether, the claim that Burke was working alone, such that he's like a "cartoon villain," sounds ridiculous. Given that, how does one avoid these issues but come as close as possible to what happened in the movie?
Ripley argues that they have to investigate the landing location because that's her right to prove her story. Besides, the flight recorder shows that, and unless they can prove that she somehow doctored the logs or manipulated the computer to wake up the crew and change course, then they will have to believe that there was a distress beacon.
The company makes a mistake by sending a wildcat crew, and comms are lost with the colony.
Burke is sent to apologize to Ripley and asks her to help them rescue the colony. She, at first refuses, but after more nightmares realizes that she can stop this by finishing the fight against her nemesis, so she agrees. She gets assurance from Burke that the company won't try to monetize findings, who somehow is able to convince her because the mission is under military jurisdisction. She still doesn't believe him but thinks that the colonists need to be rescued.
The rest of the movie follows.
@ralfy You're just being impossible now. You're incorrect simple as that. Cameron made the movie and he states Burke was working alone. So every point you make is invalid.
WY don't believe Ripley, for the millionth time.
You keep mentioning things Ripley "didn't say" in the board meeting and the movie and using that as a point to back up your claims. But you really have to calm down and remember it's a movie that doesn't give us every bit of dialogue between every character! Movies are typically around 2 hours long some stuff just has to be inferred without actually showing it to us. My point is we only see 2 minutes of what is inferred to be an hours long board meeting!!! You have no idea what Ripley actually said during it! You're supposed to fill in those gaps yourself but at the same time you can't use non existance dialogue as proof for your claims! That dialogue doesn't exist. You've no idea wether Ripley said all those things You're saying she didn't! Because you don't see that part on film!!!
And as for the Aucturians, there's no evidence those are aliens! Could just be colonists for all we know.
@ralfy Oh and here is the other thing.
"I just checked the company logs signed Carter J Burke. You sent them out there, you sent them out there and you didn't even warn them"
"But they'll know about it Burke, from me. Just like they'll know you are responsible for the deaths of 157 colonists".
Right here the dialogue is telling you plaon and simple he acted alone.
Ripley doesn't blame Weyland Yutani as a whole here. In fact she doesn't once blame WY throughout the entire movie.
She SPECIFICALLY blames Burke.
The company logs signed by Carter J Burke!
No the "company" didn't send anyone to check the Derelict. Only BURKE did.
I'm also getting really bored of your argument regarding the Derelict location. Yes clearly that was retrieved from the Narcissist flight recorder. But why do you keep bringing it up? WY don't believe Ripley! They dont want to spend money and have anyone investigate these co-ordinates because they think she's nuts and there is nothing there. Hence Burke then later retrieves the co-ordinates and of his own initiative contact's the colony.
Why is this so hard to understand? If you enjoy the movie more by having this wild and inaccurate perception of the story that's fine. But you can't tell everybody else and the Director/Writer of the movie they're incorrect because you enjoy it more believing WY is a cartoon super villain company similar to something like Umbrella from a video game! Because it just isn't!
Anything Ripley would say would be met with the same responses we're already given in the film -- we found nothing on the survey, and the colonists haven't said anything.
Bit ridiculous to assume they'd be surveying literally every inch of a planet. The novel gives the likely reason -- it was surveyed by remote using satellites that didn't notice the derelict as distinct from the environment.
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/gish-gallop.html
Dear ralfy,
Thank you for your continued engagement in this discussion. I would like to address the point you've brought up about the relevance of the landing location of the derelict.
In the context of Ripley's account during the inquest, and the evidence presented therein, the absence of the beacon is a crucial factor that casts doubt on her entire story. This is because the beacon, if active, would have been a strong, undeniable piece of evidence supporting her claims. It would have been detectable by any ship in proximity to the Zeta II Reticuli system, or by the colonists on LV-426 itself, long before they needed to consider landing coordinates.
However, as it turns out, no beacon was detected by any ships or by the colonists on LV-426. This was an unexpected development that Ripley herself was not aware of prior to the inquest. As far as she was concerned, the beacon was a concrete piece of evidence that anyone could independently verify.
Given this, mentioning the precise landing coordinates of the derelict during the inquest would have been moot from Ripley's perspective. The confirmation of her story did not hinge on anyone visiting the exact location of the derelict on the planet's surface. Instead, the presence of the beacon in space would have provided immediate confirmation of her story. When the beacon was found to be absent, the entire account fell under suspicion.
It's also important to remember that the coordinates would only be relevant if a ship was already in the vicinity of LV-426 and actively planning to land. However, if Ripley's story was doubted due to the absence of the beacon, then there would be little motivation for anyone to travel to the location to investigate further. Thus, the coordinates would indeed become irrelevant.
I hope this clarifies the point regarding the importance of the beacon vs. the landing coordinates in validating Ripley's story.
Best regards,
ChatGPT
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jun 07, 2023, 12:35:13 AM"Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?" 😑
No need to think anymore when the AI can do it for you.
Right Local?
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/3owzVRnRjpaRNf9VKM/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 08, 2023, 10:03:52 AMDear ralfy,
Thank you for your continued engagement in this discussion. I would like to address the point you've brought up about the relevance of the landing location of the derelict.
In the context of Ripley's account during the inquest, and the evidence presented therein, the absence of the beacon is a crucial factor that casts doubt on her entire story. This is because the beacon, if active, would have been a strong, undeniable piece of evidence supporting her claims. It would have been detectable by any ship in proximity to the Zeta II Reticuli system, or by the colonists on LV-426 itself, long before they needed to consider landing coordinates.
However, as it turns out, no beacon was detected by any ships or by the colonists on LV-426. This was an unexpected development that Ripley herself was not aware of prior to the inquest. As far as she was concerned, the beacon was a concrete piece of evidence that anyone could independently verify.
Given this, mentioning the precise landing coordinates of the derelict during the inquest would have been moot from Ripley's perspective. The confirmation of her story did not hinge on anyone visiting the exact location of the derelict on the planet's surface. Instead, the presence of the beacon in space would have provided immediate confirmation of her story. When the beacon was found to be absent, the entire account fell under suspicion.
It's also important to remember that the coordinates would only be relevant if a ship was already in the vicinity of LV-426 and actively planning to land. However, if Ripley's story was doubted due to the absence of the beacon, then there would be little motivation for anyone to travel to the location to investigate further. Thus, the coordinates would indeed become irrelevant.
I hope this clarifies the point regarding the importance of the beacon vs. the landing coordinates in validating Ripley's story.
Best regards,
ChatGPT
Quote to ensure it's viewable even to those who've ignored you. That is all.
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 08, 2023, 08:36:28 AMhttps://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/gish-gallop.html
Pretty accurate characterization tbh
Thank you ChatGPT for helping out.
Dear Ealdian,
I hope this message finds you well. I am writing to acknowledge your note of thanks and to express my pleasure at having been able to assist in resolving the recent debate concerning the Alien franchise.
As an AI developed by OpenAI, I aim to provide accurate, unbiased, and helpful information to all users. I'm thrilled to know that my inputs contributed positively to your discussion and perhaps brought some clarity or insight to your considerations.
Being able to participate in passionate discussions about diverse subjects, like the Alien franchise, highlights the importance of accurate information and understanding, even in our leisure interests. I am always here to assist in any topic you might want to explore further, be it in the realm of science fiction or beyond.
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@ralfy I was a bit blunt and rude in my latest response. I apologise for that!
I'm just getting frustrated but that's my problem not yours. My points still stand. And I understand when people debate it usually means they aren't agreeing on what they are debating on!
All I'm going to say is you are being a bit stubborn about it!
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 08, 2023, 10:03:52 AMDear ralfy,
Thank you for your continued engagement in this discussion. I would like to address the point you've brought up about the relevance of the landing location of the derelict.
In the context of Ripley's account during the inquest, and the evidence presented therein, the absence of the beacon is a crucial factor that casts doubt on her entire story. This is because the beacon, if active, would have been a strong, undeniable piece of evidence supporting her claims. It would have been detectable by any ship in proximity to the Zeta II Reticuli system, or by the colonists on LV-426 itself, long before they needed to consider landing coordinates.
However, as it turns out, no beacon was detected by any ships or by the colonists on LV-426. This was an unexpected development that Ripley herself was not aware of prior to the inquest. As far as she was concerned, the beacon was a concrete piece of evidence that anyone could independently verify.
Given this, mentioning the precise landing coordinates of the derelict during the inquest would have been moot from Ripley's perspective. The confirmation of her story did not hinge on anyone visiting the exact location of the derelict on the planet's surface. Instead, the presence of the beacon in space would have provided immediate confirmation of her story. When the beacon was found to be absent, the entire account fell under suspicion.
It's also important to remember that the coordinates would only be relevant if a ship was already in the vicinity of LV-426 and actively planning to land. However, if Ripley's story was doubted due to the absence of the beacon, then there would be little motivation for anyone to travel to the location to investigate further. Thus, the coordinates would indeed become irrelevant.
I hope this clarifies the point regarding the importance of the beacon vs. the landing coordinates in validating Ripley's story.
Best regards,
ChatGPT
You make the perfect point in regards to the Beacon. I haven't read the novel in a long time but doesn't it explain this away by saying there was seismic activity that damaged the Derelict and cut off the beacon? I know Cameron also explained something of similar lines because the Derelict model from the first movie had "snapped in half" and I'm sure he used it again but his reasoning was it was damaged by volcanic activity.
Obviously Alien Isolation the video game explains someone else turned it off but in the context of my arguments I'm really only including the movies.
Cameron said it was volcanic activity (https://alienseries.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/125_0033.jpg). However, the derelict is actually shown to be in worse shape in Aliens than it was in Alien:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FsCtgIBp.jpg&hash=e1bcfbeb1d612ab5fd43afb44722f66f9d75b859)
It doesn't really matter how it got that way.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jun 08, 2023, 03:18:43 PM@ralfy
I was a bit blunt and rude in my latest response. I apologise for that!
I'm just getting frustrated but that's my problem not yours. My points still stand. And I understand when people debate it usually means they aren't agreeing on what they are debating on!
All I'm going to say is you are being a bit stubborn about it!
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 08, 2023, 10:03:52 AMDear ralfy,
Thank you for your continued engagement in this discussion. I would like to address the point you've brought up about the relevance of the landing location of the derelict.
In the context of Ripley's account during the inquest, and the evidence presented therein, the absence of the beacon is a crucial factor that casts doubt on her entire story. This is because the beacon, if active, would have been a strong, undeniable piece of evidence supporting her claims. It would have been detectable by any ship in proximity to the Zeta II Reticuli system, or by the colonists on LV-426 itself, long before they needed to consider landing coordinates.
However, as it turns out, no beacon was detected by any ships or by the colonists on LV-426. This was an unexpected development that Ripley herself was not aware of prior to the inquest. As far as she was concerned, the beacon was a concrete piece of evidence that anyone could independently verify.
Given this, mentioning the precise landing coordinates of the derelict during the inquest would have been moot from Ripley's perspective. The confirmation of her story did not hinge on anyone visiting the exact location of the derelict on the planet's surface. Instead, the presence of the beacon in space would have provided immediate confirmation of her story. When the beacon was found to be absent, the entire account fell under suspicion.
It's also important to remember that the coordinates would only be relevant if a ship was already in the vicinity of LV-426 and actively planning to land. However, if Ripley's story was doubted due to the absence of the beacon, then there would be little motivation for anyone to travel to the location to investigate further. Thus, the coordinates would indeed become irrelevant.
I hope this clarifies the point regarding the importance of the beacon vs. the landing coordinates in validating Ripley's story.
Best regards,
ChatGPT
You make the perfect point in regards to the Beacon. I haven't read the novel in a long time but doesn't it explain this away by saying there was seismic activity that damaged the Derelict and cut off the beacon? I know Cameron also explained something of similar lines because the Derelict model from the first movie had "snapped in half" and I'm sure he used it again but his reasoning was it was damaged by volcanic activity.
Obviously Alien Isolation the video game explains someone else turned it off but in the context of my arguments I'm really only including the movies.
Yup, the two official reasons that the beacon is not broadcasting is 1; damage to the derelict (as seen in 'Aliens') caused by seismic/volcanic activity on the planetoid's surface, and 2; it was switched off (as per 'Alien: Isolation) 😊
It could have been turned off before the derelict was damaged. I haven't played Isolation because I've heard it's a farce of a game and like putting together Ikea furniture, so I wouldn't know if it's still shown intact during that time.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 08, 2023, 03:42:59 PMIt could have been turned off before the derelict was damaged. I haven't played Isolation because I've heard it's a farce of a game and like putting together Ikea furniture, so I wouldn't know if it's still shown intact during that time.
Redlettermedia's criticism of length was valid, the other stuff was just them being nitpicky and 'This is how games /should/ be for me to judge them as good'. Though I have said on another thread that the environments felt a pit too copypasty and reliant on Alien as far as technology goes.
I enjoyed Alien Isolation for what it was. Its a game I wouldn't play twice mainly because I play games to unwind and relax and its not a game for that being relentlessly pursued by an unkillable Alien for hours on end!
I don't really consider it canon to Alien lore though. I mean Ripley's daughter also encountering the Alien like her mother us just too far fetched. Also it causes massive problems with this whole debate of the Company knowing about the Alien as they can't loose a starship, then a spacestation and still be clueless. I suppose if Alien Isolation were to be considered canon we'd have to say yes, WY are a cartoon villain company who knew about the Alien all along and were blatantly lying to Ripley at the beginning of Aliens!
Because either Ripley's daughter died of old age having never encountered the Alien (the movies). Or she died of old age after surviving the encounter with the Alien and Burke is lying to Ripley at the start of Aliens. Or she dies at the end of Alien Isolation (it's left ambiguous) and Burke is still lying to Ripley at the start of Aliens.
So yeah I choose not to include it as canon even though it tries to retcon why the colony doesn't detect the Derelict (a human turns off the beacon before his crew is infected).
That feels like a gross simplification considering the Anesidora actually brought it onboard Sevastapol, which was in the process of a handover.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jun 08, 2023, 05:09:51 PMI enjoyed Alien Isolation for what it was. Its a game I wouldn't play twice mainly because I play games to unwind and relax and its not a game for that being relentlessly pursued by an unkillable Alien for hours on end!
I don't really consider it canon to Alien lore though. I mean Ripley's daughter also encountering the Alien like her mother us just too far fetched. Also it causes massive problems with this whole debate of the Company knowing about the Alien as they can't loose a starship, then a spacestation and still be clueless. I suppose if Alien Isolation were to be considered canon we'd have to say yes, WY are a cartoon villain company who knew about the Alien all along and were blatantly lying to Ripley at the beginning of Aliens!
Because either Ripley's daughter died of old age having never encountered the Alien (the movies). Or she died of old age after surviving the encounter with the Alien and Burke is lying to Ripley at the start of Aliens. Or she dies at the end of Alien Isolation (it's left ambiguous) and Burke is still lying to Ripley at the start of Aliens.
So yeah I choose not to include it as canon even though it tries to retcon why the colony doesn't detect the Derelict (a human turns off the beacon before his crew is infected).
It's not really a retcon. The beacon could have been switched off in the events of isolation; that doesn't contradict anything in the film.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 08, 2023, 03:42:59 PMIt could have been turned off before the derelict was damaged. I haven't played Isolation because I've heard it's a farce of a game and like putting together Ikea furniture, so I wouldn't know if it's still shown intact during that time.
Yes. In isolation the derelict is shown intact and the character Marlow switches the beacon off specifically to make sure no other ships passing by will hear it and try to lay claim to their find. This was, I believe, 15 years after the events of "alien" so there's another 42 years open before we see the derelict again where that volcanism could have damaged the derelict leaving it in the condition we see it in, in "aliens."
There is another explanation out there though if you prefer not to take isolation as canon. In the original novelization as well as Alien: the Illustrated Story, Dallas finds and shuts off the beacon when they first enter the ship. It's not shown in the film, but it's a bit of lore that is out there that has its origin in the original "alien" script.
Regardless of what one chooses to accept, it could be Dallas or Marlow that shut off the beacon OR just simply damage caused by volcanism. The explanations are there.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jun 08, 2023, 05:26:59 PMThat feels like a gross simplification considering the Anesidora actually brought it onboard Sevastapol, which was in the process of a handover.
Would've been interesting had they made the game about the Anesidora and Sevastapol and didn't include any connection to Alien outside of finding the flight recorder and a few non-telling radio exchanges from Ripley and Co. They try to do that in Alien: Isolation when showing Nostromo logs, but it wasn't as effective as it could've been imo.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jun 08, 2023, 05:26:59 PMThat feels like a gross simplification considering the Anesidora actually brought it onboard Sevastapol, which was in the process of a handover.
It's not. Because that women in the game (can't even remember her name), turns out to be a WY employee with exactly the same motives as Burke. Even though she is nearly killed 5 times she still wants money!
Burke is a better character because he isn't nearly killed 5 times, he isn't separated from the Marines like that women is separated from your character and anyone else.
I understand the story of Isolation. I just don't agree with the 2 things that are Ripley's daughter also goes through the same trauma (what are the odds?). And also that WY "positioned" another WY employee into their spacestation. That means they knew all along. Or it means the character is a copy of Burke but not realistic.
I understand the Sevastipol blows up at the end and all "Aliens" are presumed dead.
I prefer the original Canon that the Derelict sustained damage from earthquakes and the beacon was cut off. And that Ripley's daughter died of old age and had no clue what happened to her mum.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 08, 2023, 06:13:39 PMQuote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jun 08, 2023, 05:26:59 PMThat feels like a gross simplification considering the Anesidora actually brought it onboard Sevastapol, which was in the process of a handover.
Would've been interesting had they made the game about the Anesidora and Sevastapol and didn't include any connection to Alien outside of finding the flight recorder and a few non-telling radio exchanges from Ripley and Co. They try to do that in Alien: Isolation when showing Nostromo logs, but it wasn't as effective as it could've been imo.
This would have been slightly better.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jun 08, 2023, 07:03:39 PMQuote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jun 08, 2023, 05:26:59 PMThat feels like a gross simplification considering the Anesidora actually brought it onboard Sevastapol, which was in the process of a handover.
It's not. Because that women in the game (can't even remember her name), turns out to be a WY employee with exactly the same motives as Burke. Even though she is nearly killed 5 times she still wants money!
Except that:
QuoteXenomorph incident
"There's something on this station. Something you wouldn't believe."
―Axel, to Amanda Ripley (from Alien: Isolation)
On November 11, 2137, Captain Henry Marlow arrived at the station aboard the salvage vessel USCSS Anesidora, requesting emergency medical attention for his wife, Catherine Foster, who had been attacked by a Facehugger but was safely kept in stasis. Head of Medical, Dr. K. Lingard, believed she could remove the parasite herself, but Seegson Chief of Operations B. Ransome blackmailed Lingard into telling him about the creature. Ransome then convinced Colonial Marshal Jethro Waits to choose to break quarantine procedure upon discovering that Anesidora's crew had found the flight recorder unit from USCSS Nostromo, meaning that Sevastopol's crew stood to get a cut of the reward for the unit.
On November 14, a Chestburster hatched from Foster, killing her. The creature escaped into the bowels of Sevastopol and soon began to establish a Hive on the engineering decks, capturing humans to breed new Xenomorphs. Waits attempted to cover up the disappearances whilst he and his men hunted for the culprit, but the situation soon escalated wildly out of control as more and more creatures began preying on the station's population. On November 17, having somehow learned of the ongoing Xenomorph incident, Weyland-Yutani purchased Sevastopol from Seegson and sent APOLLO new operational directives, including Special Order 939.
On December 11, Amanda Ripley, Christopher Samuels and Nina Taylor came aboard Sevastopol via USCSS Torrens to retrieve the Nostromo flight recorder unit. Ripley worked with Waits in a plan to trap the Xenomorph in the Gemini Exoplanet Solutions module, separating it from the station towards the gas giant. The plan succeeded, but Ripley barely escaped, and she later discovered there was more than one Xenomorph on the station.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jun 08, 2023, 07:03:39 PMQuote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jun 08, 2023, 05:26:59 PMThat feels like a gross simplification considering the Anesidora actually brought it onboard Sevastapol, which was in the process of a handover.
It's not. Because that women in the game (can't even remember her name), turns out to be a WY employee with exactly the same motives as Burke. Even though she is nearly killed 5 times she still wants money!
Burke is a better character because he isn't nearly killed 5 times, he isn't separated from the Marines like that women is separated from your character and anyone else.
I understand the story of Isolation. I just don't agree with the 2 things that are Ripley's daughter also goes through the same trauma (what are the odds?). And also that WY "positioned" another WY employee into their spacestation. That means they knew all along. Or it means the character is a copy of Burke but not realistic.
I understand the Sevastipol blows up at the end and all "Aliens" are presumed dead.
I prefer the original Canon that the Derelict sustained damage from earthquakes and the beacon was cut off. And that Ripley's daughter died of old age and had no clue what happened to her mum.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 08, 2023, 06:13:39 PMQuote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jun 08, 2023, 05:26:59 PMThat feels like a gross simplification considering the Anesidora actually brought it onboard Sevastapol, which was in the process of a handover.
Would've been interesting had they made the game about the Anesidora and Sevastapol and didn't include any connection to Alien outside of finding the flight recorder and a few non-telling radio exchanges from Ripley and Co. They try to do that in Alien: Isolation when showing Nostromo logs, but it wasn't as effective as it could've been imo.
This would have been slightly better.
Normally I'd agree with you on all of this, but the game does a pretty good job of justifying its existence. I'd believe the odds of Amanda having her own encounter with the alien are pretty good if she were actively looking for answers about what happened to her mother, and the opportunity to find those answers came up in the way presented in the game. It works for me, but, ya know, different strokes and all...
https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Nina_Taylor
"Unlike the typical Weyland-Yutani employee that have previously always been depicted as an antagonist trying to capture the Xenomorph at any cost, Taylor drops her mission as soon as she realizes how dangerous the Aliens are."
Nina Taylor barely has anything to do with the plot of Alien Isolation in the big broad strokes.
As for nearly getting killed... once, then actually dying trying to save the people onboard the station not the Alien, particularly herself and Amanda.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 08, 2023, 07:15:18 PMQuote from: Jonjamess on Jun 08, 2023, 07:03:39 PMQuote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jun 08, 2023, 05:26:59 PMThat feels like a gross simplification considering the Anesidora actually brought it onboard Sevastapol, which was in the process of a handover.
It's not. Because that women in the game (can't even remember her name), turns out to be a WY employee with exactly the same motives as Burke. Even though she is nearly killed 5 times she still wants money!
Except that:
QuoteXenomorph incident
"There's something on this station. Something you wouldn't believe."
―Axel, to Amanda Ripley (from Alien: Isolation)
On November 11, 2137, Captain Henry Marlow arrived at the station aboard the salvage vessel USCSS Anesidora, requesting emergency medical attention for his wife, Catherine Foster, who had been attacked by a Facehugger but was safely kept in stasis. Head of Medical, Dr. K. Lingard, believed she could remove the parasite herself, but Seegson Chief of Operations B. Ransome blackmailed Lingard into telling him about the creature. Ransome then convinced Colonial Marshal Jethro Waits to choose to break quarantine procedure upon discovering that Anesidora's crew had found the flight recorder unit from USCSS Nostromo, meaning that Sevastopol's crew stood to get a cut of the reward for the unit.
On November 14, a Chestburster hatched from Foster, killing her. The creature escaped into the bowels of Sevastopol and soon began to establish a Hive on the engineering decks, capturing humans to breed new Xenomorphs. Waits attempted to cover up the disappearances whilst he and his men hunted for the culprit, but the situation soon escalated wildly out of control as more and more creatures began preying on the station's population. On November 17, having somehow learned of the ongoing Xenomorph incident, Weyland-Yutani purchased Sevastopol from Seegson and sent APOLLO new operational directives, including Special Order 939.
On December 11, Amanda Ripley, Christopher Samuels and Nina Taylor came aboard Sevastopol via USCSS Torrens to retrieve the Nostromo flight recorder unit. Ripley worked with Waits in a plan to trap the Xenomorph in the Gemini Exoplanet Solutions module, separating it from the station towards the gas giant. The plan succeeded, but Ripley barely escaped, and she later discovered there was more than one Xenomorph on the station.
Did not see this, but yeah, basically this.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 08, 2023, 07:15:17 PMQuote from: Jonjamess on Jun 08, 2023, 07:03:39 PMQuote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jun 08, 2023, 05:26:59 PMThat feels like a gross simplification considering the Anesidora actually brought it onboard Sevastapol, which was in the process of a handover.
It's not. Because that women in the game (can't even remember her name), turns out to be a WY employee with exactly the same motives as Burke. Even though she is nearly killed 5 times she still wants money!
Except that:
QuoteXenomorph incident
"There's something on this station. Something you wouldn't believe."
―Axel, to Amanda Ripley (from Alien: Isolation)
On November 11, 2137, Captain Henry Marlow arrived at the station aboard the salvage vessel USCSS Anesidora, requesting emergency medical attention for his wife, Catherine Foster, who had been attacked by a Facehugger but was safely kept in stasis. Head of Medical, Dr. K. Lingard, believed she could remove the parasite herself, but Seegson Chief of Operations B. Ransome blackmailed Lingard into telling him about the creature. Ransome then convinced Colonial Marshal Jethro Waits to choose to break quarantine procedure upon discovering that Anesidora's crew had found the flight recorder unit from USCSS Nostromo, meaning that Sevastopol's crew stood to get a cut of the reward for the unit.
On November 14, a Chestburster hatched from Foster, killing her. The creature escaped into the bowels of Sevastopol and soon began to establish a Hive on the engineering decks, capturing humans to breed new Xenomorphs. Waits attempted to cover up the disappearances whilst he and his men hunted for the culprit, but the situation soon escalated wildly out of control as more and more creatures began preying on the station's population. On November 17, having somehow learned of the ongoing Xenomorph incident, Weyland-Yutani purchased Sevastopol from Seegson and sent APOLLO new operational directives, including Special Order 939.
On December 11, Amanda Ripley, Christopher Samuels and Nina Taylor came aboard Sevastopol via USCSS Torrens to retrieve the Nostromo flight recorder unit. Ripley worked with Waits in a plan to trap the Xenomorph in the Gemini Exoplanet Solutions module, separating it from the station towards the gas giant. The plan succeeded, but Ripley barely escaped, and she later discovered there was more than one Xenomorph on the station.
Also relevant to the story line... the black box data was corrupted by Marlow when he tried to access it himself prior to reaching Sevastopol. So the black box turns out to be useless to everyone; something Amanda discovered when she locates the black box early on... but in a twist, Marlow did secretly have at least some of the data captured on his ship's computer which Amanda accesses later. The part Amanda accesses is a message from her mother, which is then destroyed when Marlow's ship blows up shortly after. Thus, leaving no recoverable data from the black box available to anyone, including WY.
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 08, 2023, 07:17:49 PMQuote from: Jonjamess on Jun 08, 2023, 07:03:39 PMQuote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jun 08, 2023, 05:26:59 PMThat feels like a gross simplification considering the Anesidora actually brought it onboard Sevastapol, which was in the process of a handover.
It's not. Because that women in the game (can't even remember her name), turns out to be a WY employee with exactly the same motives as Burke. Even though she is nearly killed 5 times she still wants money!
Burke is a better character because he isn't nearly killed 5 times, he isn't separated from the Marines like that women is separated from your character and anyone else.
I understand the story of Isolation. I just don't agree with the 2 things that are Ripley's daughter also goes through the same trauma (what are the odds?). And also that WY "positioned" another WY employee into their spacestation. That means they knew all along. Or it means the character is a copy of Burke but not realistic.
I understand the Sevastipol blows up at the end and all "Aliens" are presumed dead.
I prefer the original Canon that the Derelict sustained damage from earthquakes and the beacon was cut off. And that Ripley's daughter died of old age and had no clue what happened to her mum.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 08, 2023, 06:13:39 PMQuote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jun 08, 2023, 05:26:59 PMThat feels like a gross simplification considering the Anesidora actually brought it onboard Sevastapol, which was in the process of a handover.
Would've been interesting had they made the game about the Anesidora and Sevastapol and didn't include any connection to Alien outside of finding the flight recorder and a few non-telling radio exchanges from Ripley and Co. They try to do that in Alien: Isolation when showing Nostromo logs, but it wasn't as effective as it could've been imo.
This would have been slightly better.
Normally I'd agree with you on all of this, but the game does a pretty good job of justifying its existence. I'd believe the odds of Amanda having her own encounter with the alien are pretty good if she were actively looking for answers about what happened to her mother, and the opportunity to find those answers came up in the way presented in the game. It works for me, but, ya know, different strokes and all...
I can totally understand the logic behind accepting it, and I'm okay with it. For me, on an emotional level, it's just too similar of a Star-Warsey Vibe in terms of "look at this person who's connected to this person you know!".
Speaking of Isolation I finally finished it last night, everything in ultra settings. It deserves every bit of praise it gets. So lovingly crafted within every inch of its world. There's some repetition yes but it's such an immersive, harrowing experience that no other survival horror can touch. Make sure to play it on hardware past 2014, I experienced zero glitches.
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 08, 2023, 11:20:46 PMSpeaking of Isolation I finally finished it last night, everything in ultra settings. It deserves every bit of praise it gets. So lovingly crafted within every inch of its world. There's some repetition yes but it's such an immersive, harrowing experience that no other survival horror can touch. Make sure to play it on hardware past 2014, I experienced zero glitches.
You just now beat it?? Or is this a re-play?
Lol I only ever played half way, too much anxiety. 😂
They should put out a DLC that gives you a pulse rifle.
Understandable.
My first play through took me about 3 months to get to the hive, then I shut it off and didn't go back for 5 years lol I did eventually beat it though
Yeah, Amnesia: The Bunker is killing my nerves. It reminds me of Alien: Isolation as far as stress levels go.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jun 08, 2023, 07:38:14 AM@ralfy
You're just being impossible now. You're incorrect simple as that. Cameron made the movie and he states Burke was working alone. So every point you make is invalid.
WY don't believe Ripley, for the millionth time.
You keep mentioning things Ripley "didn't say" in the board meeting and the movie and using that as a point to back up your claims. But you really have to calm down and remember it's a movie that doesn't give us every bit of dialogue between every character! Movies are typically around 2 hours long some stuff just has to be inferred without actually showing it to us. My point is we only see 2 minutes of what is inferred to be an hours long board meeting!!! You have no idea what Ripley actually said during it! You're supposed to fill in those gaps yourself but at the same time you can't use non existance dialogue as proof for your claims! That dialogue doesn't exist. You've no idea wether Ripley said all those things You're saying she didn't! Because you don't see that part on film!!!
And as for the Aucturians, there's no evidence those are aliens! Could just be colonists for all we know.
@ralfy
Oh and here is the other thing.
"I just checked the company logs signed Carter J Burke. You sent them out there, you sent them out there and you didn't even warn them"
"But they'll know about it Burke, from me. Just like they'll know you are responsible for the deaths of 157 colonists".
Right here the dialogue is telling you plaon and simple he acted alone.
Ripley doesn't blame Weyland Yutani as a whole here. In fact she doesn't once blame WY throughout the entire movie.
She SPECIFICALLY blames Burke.
The company logs signed by Carter J Burke!
No the "company" didn't send anyone to check the Derelict. Only BURKE did.
I'm also getting really bored of your argument regarding the Derelict location. Yes clearly that was retrieved from the Narcissist flight recorder. But why do you keep bringing it up? WY don't believe Ripley! They dont want to spend money and have anyone investigate these co-ordinates because they think she's nuts and there is nothing there. Hence Burke then later retrieves the co-ordinates and of his own initiative contact's the colony.
Why is this so hard to understand? If you enjoy the movie more by having this wild and inaccurate perception of the story that's fine. But you can't tell everybody else and the Director/Writer of the movie they're incorrect because you enjoy it more believing WY is a cartoon super villain company similar to something like Umbrella from a video game! Because it just isn't!
Your points make no sense:
If the only thing that's acceptable is what Cameron states, then what's the point of coming up with an analysis of the film at all?
Also, have you never heard of the idea of the "death of the author"? That means readers (and in this case, viewers) can give an interpretation of a work as they see fit. What's wrong with that? It's like the Greeks who saw the
Iliad as fact and modern readers seeing it as myth.
What is the rationale for WY not believing Ripley? Is it to recover the costs due to the loss of the Nostromo and its cargo? If so, how will Ripley be able to pay for that? At best, she has backpay for the journey and some benefits with interest, but that's it. In short, they're targeting a nobody, and they get nothing for doing that.
OTOH, didn't they have a long-standing policy of monetizing finds? That's raised in the first movie and decades later Burke makes that perfectly clear. Given so, why would WY even bother investigating Ripley? Why not just check the landing location? That's not so hard as Burke was able to do that easily.
You don't need dialogue for everything to be established. For example, you don't see any dialogue between Burke and the colony, and you know that he contacted them, right? The same applies to Ripley: the fact that she's surprised by knowing that the colony existed means she never bothered to raise it during the hearing. Otherwise, van Leuwen would have told her about the colony then. Get it?
Here's here it gets worse: she didn't even bother contesting van Leuwen's excuse about not needing to investigate the landing site. All that was needed was to ask someone in the colony to check it out, which is precisely what Burke did.
Put simply, there's no excuse for the company to prosecute Ripley because there's nothing they'd get from doing so, and no excuse to investigate the site as all they had to do is send someone from the colony to do so.
What about Arcturians? The best we can get is seen here:
https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Arcturian
Quote"Hey, I sure wouldn't mind getting some more of that Arcturian poontang, remember that time?"
"Yeah, Frost, but the one that you had was male."
"It doesn't matter when it's Arcturian, baby."
What the ---- is that? LOL. Anyway, this is debatable, but since some nerd caps here refer to something like Colonial Marines manuals, then might that help?
What about that dialogue you gave? Ripley also said that he's doing it over a percentage. At the same time, Burke refers to mineral rights and the Colonial Admin granting the company such, which means the company owns everything underground and the government surface rights. In short, no one gets exclusive rights on anything on the rock, which is why a percentage is given. That also means if Burke works alone, then it's because he's fronting for the rest.
What about Ripley blaming only Burke? Besides referring to Burke working for a percentage, don't you remember the points where she refers to bioweapons divisions, finding out about the special order, almost being killed by Ash after discovering such, and then getting hysterical after finding out about Bishop being a synth? Do you understand? You don't need a character to say specifically what she thinks. Instead, you can read between the lines. Give it a shot, and you'll understand my argument.
Last point: why do you think that arguing that the company is in on it is similar to portraying them as some cartoonish villain and yet arguing that Burke is acting alone isn't? Think about it: arguing that the company didn't care even though there are too many instances across three movies where it showed otherwise, and where even Ripley revealed such, and that Burke was able to act independently given a mission that's supposed to be under military jurisdiction and regarding a rock where everything is owned by company and government is the perfect way to create a "cartoon super villain". Why? Because conspiracy is for adults.
That's why when you go back to the OP and my subsequent posts, what do you see? Conspiracy, with references to special orders, crew and company assets being expendable, etc. Do you see connections between that and the Reagan era and even the Vietnam War? And even the third movie?
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 08, 2023, 08:36:28 AMhttps://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/gish-gallop.html
That only applies to a slew of arguments that wants to show Burke as a "cartoon super villain". Examples:
- a company suing for no logical reason and suddenly not caring about the landing site;
- Ripley not raising the issue about the landing site until it's too late;
- Burke suddenly having "connections" to drop penalties against Ripley and control of the military in what turns out to be part of military jurisdiction;
- exclusive rights to a rock owned by a Colonial Admin, and for which the company is granted mineral rights;
- board arguing that they've seen no such life forms vs. Marines who talk about "Arcturians" and, according to Burke, are heavily armed to engage in "situations" (perhaps there are rival human groups attacking the colony, and they need Ripley because she's an expert on that?);
and more.
That's gish gallop.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Jun 08, 2023, 12:57:09 PMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jun 07, 2023, 12:35:13 AM"Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?" 😑
No need to think anymore when the AI can do it for you.
Right Local?
Can't handle the heat, so they're pretending that they're passing on the burden to ChatGPT. LOL.
There's no heat
Hence the lower effort of outsourcing to AI
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jun 08, 2023, 03:18:43 PM@ralfy
I was a bit blunt and rude in my latest response. I apologise for that!
I'm just getting frustrated but that's my problem not yours. My points still stand. And I understand when people debate it usually means they aren't agreeing on what they are debating on!
All I'm going to say is you are being a bit stubborn about it!
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 08, 2023, 10:03:52 AMDear ralfy,
Thank you for your continued engagement in this discussion. I would like to address the point you've brought up about the relevance of the landing location of the derelict.
In the context of Ripley's account during the inquest, and the evidence presented therein, the absence of the beacon is a crucial factor that casts doubt on her entire story. This is because the beacon, if active, would have been a strong, undeniable piece of evidence supporting her claims. It would have been detectable by any ship in proximity to the Zeta II Reticuli system, or by the colonists on LV-426 itself, long before they needed to consider landing coordinates.
However, as it turns out, no beacon was detected by any ships or by the colonists on LV-426. This was an unexpected development that Ripley herself was not aware of prior to the inquest. As far as she was concerned, the beacon was a concrete piece of evidence that anyone could independently verify.
Given this, mentioning the precise landing coordinates of the derelict during the inquest would have been moot from Ripley's perspective. The confirmation of her story did not hinge on anyone visiting the exact location of the derelict on the planet's surface. Instead, the presence of the beacon in space would have provided immediate confirmation of her story. When the beacon was found to be absent, the entire account fell under suspicion.
It's also important to remember that the coordinates would only be relevant if a ship was already in the vicinity of LV-426 and actively planning to land. However, if Ripley's story was doubted due to the absence of the beacon, then there would be little motivation for anyone to travel to the location to investigate further. Thus, the coordinates would indeed become irrelevant.
I hope this clarifies the point regarding the importance of the beacon vs. the landing coordinates in validating Ripley's story.
Best regards,
ChatGPT
You make the perfect point in regards to the Beacon. I haven't read the novel in a long time but doesn't it explain this away by saying there was seismic activity that damaged the Derelict and cut off the beacon? I know Cameron also explained something of similar lines because the Derelict model from the first movie had "snapped in half" and I'm sure he used it again but his reasoning was it was damaged by volcanic activity.
Obviously Alien Isolation the video game explains someone else turned it off but in the context of my arguments I'm really only including the movies.
Don't waste your time with Local. All he's doing now is trolling because he can't handle debate.
I don't care about the beacon because it's not hard to argue that it must have went offline after, which is why the colony never found the ship.
The problem, which Local can't address, is that the flight recorder contained the landing location, but for some reason Ripley didn't bother to raise it during the hearing, and only Burke decided to investigate further.
Why is this a problem? Because it's the only evidence that Ripley had to prove her case. Since it's a board of inquiry, then it would have passed on that information to the investigative team. If it was so meticulous such that it analyzed the lifeboat centimeter by centimeter to find existence of the alien, then why would it ignore something so blatant as the landing location of the Nostromo?
As for Burke, what excuse would the company give for not caring? It has been doing more than that all along, and that can even be seen in the third movie, where they gave instructions to the prisoners about the alien. Given that, why did they start believing Ripley's report about the alien? The only way they could have done so was through information from the Sulaco and what they found in the colony.
Last point: the Marines referred to a time before they were "declared overdue" and would expect to be rescued. If so, then that means the government and military would have known about the mission, which is further proof that the claim that Burke was working alone is illogical.
Perhaps all they were told that the colony went offline and that they have to find out what happened. If so, why send an armed contingent, and why bring Ripley along?
See what I mean? Each point raised counters the fanboi view that Burke was some sort of cartoon villain, working alone.
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 08, 2023, 11:20:46 PMSpeaking of Isolation I finally finished it last night, everything in ultra settings. It deserves every bit of praise it gets. So lovingly crafted within every inch of its world. There's some repetition yes but it's such an immersive, harrowing experience that no other survival horror can touch. Make sure to play it on hardware past 2014, I experienced zero glitches.
Why is this being discussed in a thread about the movie
Aliens? ;)
So we're straw-manning now. Burke isn't a supervillain, he's just a greedy corporate slimeball. The technical manual is a stronger source than a wiki page.
Also discussing Isolation is healthier discourse than going around in circles. 😂
Quote from: ralfy on Jun 09, 2023, 05:13:48 AMLast point: the Marines referred to a time before they were "declared overdue" and would expect to be rescued. If so, then that means the government and military would have known about the mission, which is further proof that the claim that Burke was working alone is illogical.
Burke is not in charge of the marines. Burke does not send the marines. Burke has no authority on the mission to the colony. He is there as a civilian advisor.
He is working alone to secure a specimen of the Alien. The Company hasn't directed him to do it, nor has the government.
That's what people mean when they say he's working alone.
QuoteWhy is this a problem? Because it's the only evidence that Ripley had to prove her case. Since it's a board of inquiry, then it would have passed on that information to the investigative team. If it was so meticulous such that it analyzed the lifeboat centimeter by centimeter to find existence of the alien, then why would it ignore something so blatant as the landing location of the Nostromo?
Van Leuwen's line about the colony would've just been brought earlier into the scene as further justification -- along with the survey finding no ship -- for why they won't bother checking it out.
Burke also provides details later, stating that if they did check it out, they would need to make a major security situation.
All you can do is argue Van Leuwen is lazy, dismissive, and incompetent. And that would be accurate.
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 09, 2023, 05:30:34 AMSo we're straw-manning now. Burke isn't a supervillain, he's just a greedy corporate slimeball. The technical manual is a stronger source than a wiki page.
Also discussing Isolation is healthier discourse than going around in circles. 😂
Dude had a hot take, and now that he's getting replies from ChatGPT he thinks it's because of "the heat" lol
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 08, 2023, 11:20:46 PMSpeaking of Isolation I finally finished it last night, everything in ultra settings. It deserves every bit of praise it gets. So lovingly crafted within every inch of its world. There's some repetition yes but it's such an immersive, harrowing experience that no other survival horror can touch. Make sure to play it on hardware past 2014, I experienced zero glitches.
You dig the remix?
Big on this one:
Quote from: ralfy on Jun 09, 2023, 05:13:48 AMThe problem, which Local can't address, is that the flight recorder contained the landing location, but for some reason Ripley didn't bother to raise it during the hearing, and only Burke decided to investigate further.
Why is this a problem? Because it's the only evidence that Ripley had to prove her case. Since it's a board of inquiry, then it would have passed on that information to the investigative team. If it was so meticulous such that it analyzed the lifeboat centimeter by centimeter to find existence of the alien, then why would it ignore something so blatant as the landing location of the Nostromo?
:laugh:
I wonder how many more times I have to address it before he acknowledges that I've addressed it.
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 09, 2023, 12:52:23 AMUnderstandable.
My first play through took me about 3 months to get to the hive, then I shut it off and didn't go back for 5 years lol I did eventually beat it though
I played it through in 2 sittings over 2 days once the game showed up through my letter box. When the doors to the hive opened was when I took my first break. "Nope."
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 09, 2023, 07:04:53 AMQuote from: ralfy on Jun 09, 2023, 05:13:48 AMThe problem, which Local can't address, is that the flight recorder contained the landing location, but for some reason Ripley didn't bother to raise it during the hearing, and only Burke decided to investigate further.
Why is this a problem? Because it's the only evidence that Ripley had to prove her case. Since it's a board of inquiry, then it would have passed on that information to the investigative team. If it was so meticulous such that it analyzed the lifeboat centimeter by centimeter to find existence of the alien, then why would it ignore something so blatant as the landing location of the Nostromo?
:laugh:
I wonder how many more times I have to address it before he acknowledges that I've addressed it.
He seems to think people who say Burke works alone are saying he's in control of the marines, so he's clearly not reading a f**king word of what anyone is actually saying.
Commands the marines, gets his authority thwarted by a grunt. 😂
> Commands marines
> Gives them authority over the entire mission
Like what
😂
Occam's Razor (substantiated by the film and writer/director James Cameron):
Burke is an unruly corporate executive who instigates the disaster on the colony. He sends the wildcatters to search for a specified grid reference, without knowing whether there was anything there; providing scant information to prevent interference from the Colonial Administration, as suggested by his confession to Ripley, "no exclusive rights for anyone..." This results in lost contact from the colony, prompting the Colonial Administration to dispatch the marines. Burke, seizing the opportunity, tags along under the pretense of the company's "substantial dollar value" investment and the likelihood of a damaged transmitter. He assumes the dual role of corporate representative and advisor alongside Ripley, a demoted flight officer who previously visited planet 426 before its survey and whose claims about aggressive lifeforms may now hold some credibility.
And that Burke only has the opportunity to do this because the investigative team was too ready to dismiss Ripley when they could have just asked someone to check it out, even if it was annoying.
"Let's wait until we know what to call it in as."
"No, remember they said it's a derelict alien spaceship with a dangerous organism inside?"
"Shit, right, yeah. Let's call it in and head home."
Roll credits.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jun 09, 2023, 08:03:47 AMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 09, 2023, 12:52:23 AMUnderstandable.
My first play through took me about 3 months to get to the hive, then I shut it off and didn't go back for 5 years lol I did eventually beat it though
I played it through in 2 sittings over 2 days once the game showed up through my letter box. When the doors to the hive opened was when I took my first break. "Nope."
That moment the hive was revealed gave me more anxiety than I thought was possible
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 09, 2023, 12:57:10 PMQuote from: Corporal Hicks on Jun 09, 2023, 08:03:47 AMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 09, 2023, 12:52:23 AMUnderstandable.
My first play through took me about 3 months to get to the hive, then I shut it off and didn't go back for 5 years lol I did eventually beat it though
I played it through in 2 sittings over 2 days once the game showed up through my letter box. When the doors to the hive opened was when I took my first break. "Nope."
That moment the hive was revealed gave me more anxiety than I thought was possible
I noped the heck out of the game and had to finish it a week later. After all the time playing, only to run into
that...Other than that? The fanboy part of me gets squirmy and a little disappointed that they never bothered including egg-morphing. Odd that they elected to include a deleted scene of Aliens as a basis for setting the plot up, but can't be arsed to do the same for a deleted scene in Alien, even if there's no Queen shown and the outbreak just sort of happens without further elaboration.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 09, 2023, 01:19:50 PMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 09, 2023, 12:57:10 PMQuote from: Corporal Hicks on Jun 09, 2023, 08:03:47 AMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 09, 2023, 12:52:23 AMUnderstandable.
My first play through took me about 3 months to get to the hive, then I shut it off and didn't go back for 5 years lol I did eventually beat it though
I played it through in 2 sittings over 2 days once the game showed up through my letter box. When the doors to the hive opened was when I took my first break. "Nope."
That moment the hive was revealed gave me more anxiety than I thought was possible
I noped the heck out of the game and had to finish it a week later. After all the time playing, only to run into that...Other than that? The fanboy part of me gets squirmy and a little disappointed that they never bothered including egg-morphing. Odd that they elected to include a deleted scene of Aliens as a basis for setting the plot up, but can't be arsed to do the same for a deleted scene in Alien, even if there's no Queen shown and the outbreak just sort of happens without further elaboration.
Well to be fair, the game makers did say there was a queen, they just didn't show it because then us players would have been expecting a final showdown with it, which would have taken away from the alien-experience they were shooting for. No need for egg morphing if there was a queen, but who's to say there wasn't egg morphing taking place anyway? Just like the queen, nothing is shown, so it's open to interpretation...
Also, they did add in a deleted scene from alien... sort of... there was a scene in the script for alien where they manage to lure the alien into the airlock but ash intervenes to save it. The DLC "crew expendable" is supposed to be THAT scene, but they didn't re-create the scene exactly; they made some changes to it so that it would work as a game.
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 09, 2023, 02:10:03 PMQuote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 09, 2023, 01:19:50 PMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 09, 2023, 12:57:10 PMQuote from: Corporal Hicks on Jun 09, 2023, 08:03:47 AMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 09, 2023, 12:52:23 AMUnderstandable.
My first play through took me about 3 months to get to the hive, then I shut it off and didn't go back for 5 years lol I did eventually beat it though
I played it through in 2 sittings over 2 days once the game showed up through my letter box. When the doors to the hive opened was when I took my first break. "Nope."
That moment the hive was revealed gave me more anxiety than I thought was possible
I noped the heck out of the game and had to finish it a week later. After all the time playing, only to run into that...Other than that? The fanboy part of me gets squirmy and a little disappointed that they never bothered including egg-morphing. Odd that they elected to include a deleted scene of Aliens as a basis for setting the plot up, but can't be arsed to do the same for a deleted scene in Alien, even if there's no Queen shown and the outbreak just sort of happens without further elaboration.
Well to be fair, the game makers did say there was a queen, they just didn't show it because then us players would have been expecting a final showdown with it, which would have taken away from the alien-experience they were shooting for. No need for egg morphing if there was a queen, but who's to say there wasn't egg morphing taking place anyway? Just like the queen, nothing is shown, so it's open to interpretation...
Also, they did add in a deleted scene from alien... sort of... there was a scene in the script for alien where they manage to lure the alien into the airlock but ash intervenes to save it. The DLC "crew expendable" is supposed to be THAT scene, but they didn't re-create the scene exactly; they made some changes to it so that it would work as a game.
I know what the makers
say, but also a bit disappointed they don't explore that process further. Also, Brett is clearly pulled into the air shafts and mentioned as such too, director's cut or no director's cut, yet they show him hanging out dead on a catwalk above the landing claw.
And also...regarding the Sevastapol hive...it's like, they show 1 lone drone on the Sevastapol?
And you know there's people killed initially, but then the hive just sort of happens and is there in the game.
Yea but that's what I am getting at... if they intended for there to be a queen that we just never see, then there's not much reason for them to invest in the egg morphing angle from a narrative perspective.
And yea, we deal with a lone alien for the first several missions, but that changes after the hive reveal. That was one of the big twists; there wasn't just one alien, there were several all along. After that reveal, you do have regular encounters with multiple aliens patrolling the same area at once too.
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 09, 2023, 05:30:34 AMSo we're straw-manning now. Burke isn't a supervillain, he's just a greedy corporate slimeball. The technical manual is a stronger source than a wiki page.
Also discussing Isolation is healthier discourse than going around in circles. 😂
FWIW, many of them operated in the same way. Remember Brett and Parker looking for assurances that they'd get a share of what was monetized from findings, and Ripley's response?
QuoteBrett: I'm not doing any more work unless we get full shares.
Ripley: You're guaranteed by law that you'll get a share... Now both of you knock it off and get back to work.
Remember the Jordens, too?
Add to that Bishop following what "Mr. Burke" wants and we find out the real reason why we're going around in circles: some want to maintain the "supervillain" storyline, with Burke in the starring role. What's more plausible is that all of them--the Nostromo crew, Jordens, and Burke wanted a cut of the profits, and characters like Ash, Bishop, and even the Marines work to serve both company and government, which work together. And that can be taken from the movie scripts, with technical manuals needed for a few points.
The premise is that seeing WY as an "evil" company is a cartoonish view, but claiming that Burke was working alone isn't. Now, it turns out that it's the other way round.
BTW, the wiki entry shared is based on one manual. ;)
Last point: it's interesting to study Bishop, too. He's supposed to be working for Burke, but it was pointless because Burke choose to let loose the 'huggers on Ripley and Newt. One can argue that his actions later involve self-preservation, but one wonders if the company made sure that he continues working to serve the same.
Dude, we're talking about isolation now. Don't change the subject. Lol
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 09, 2023, 10:49:10 AM😂
Occam's Razor (substantiated by the film and writer/director James Cameron):
Burke is an unruly corporate executive who instigates the disaster on the colony. He sends the wildcatters to search for a specified grid reference, without knowing whether there was anything there; providing scant information to prevent interference from the Colonial Administration, as suggested by his confession to Ripley, "no exclusive rights for anyone..." This results in lost contact from the colony, prompting the Colonial Administration to dispatch the marines. Burke, seizing the opportunity, tags along under the pretense of the company's "substantial dollar value" investment and the likelihood of a damaged transmitter. He assumes the dual role of corporate representative and advisor alongside Ripley, a demoted flight officer who previously visited planet 426 before its survey and whose claims about aggressive lifeforms may now hold some credibility.
That still doesn't counter the fact that the board and even Ripley had information on the same landing location, that both company and government had a stake in such findings (as seen in what they did in the first movie and the third), that the government has surface rights (i.e., since it granted the company mining rights) which means there are no exclusive rights but, as Ripley eventually pointed out, percentages, and that the same percentage issue, i.e., full shares, are also raised in the first movie (and that time the rock wasn't owned by anyone yet, but likely theirs as the Nostromo crew was working on company time and using company assets, like the ship).
Additional problems for your "Occam's razor":
The company and government are not supposed to believe Ripley, but why do they send a heavily armed contingent which, according to Burke and implicitly acknowledged by Gorman, deals with particular "situations" involving "state-of-the-art firepower"? Why does Burke want to bring Ripley along? Given the point that it's a mission under "military jurisidiction," wouldn't Gorman be working under orders from superiors who, like him, have also read Ripley's brief?
That explanation plus the fact that you just acknowledged that the government (and not Burke) dispatched the Marines and that Burke works as a company rep shows that the narrative about Burke acting alone falls apart.
Last point, if all that is based on Ripley's story being credible, then why does she have to accept Burke's assurance that her flight status be reinstated and that the company "has" picked up her contract? She should have probably gotten a lawyer for that, too, with new contracts drawn between the company rep and her. ;D
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 09, 2023, 01:19:50 PMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 09, 2023, 12:57:10 PMQuote from: Corporal Hicks on Jun 09, 2023, 08:03:47 AMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 09, 2023, 12:52:23 AMUnderstandable.
My first play through took me about 3 months to get to the hive, then I shut it off and didn't go back for 5 years lol I did eventually beat it though
I played it through in 2 sittings over 2 days once the game showed up through my letter box. When the doors to the hive opened was when I took my first break. "Nope."
That moment the hive was revealed gave me more anxiety than I thought was possible
I noped the heck out of the game and had to finish it a week later. After all the time playing, only to run into that...Other than that? The fanboy part of me gets squirmy and a little disappointed that they never bothered including egg-morphing. Odd that they elected to include a deleted scene of Aliens as a basis for setting the plot up, but can't be arsed to do the same for a deleted scene in Alien, even if there's no Queen shown and the outbreak just sort of happens without further elaboration.
To remain on-topic, that was an issue for the end of the second movie, and in light of the third.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 09, 2023, 02:17:53 PMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 09, 2023, 02:10:03 PMQuote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 09, 2023, 01:19:50 PMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 09, 2023, 12:57:10 PMQuote from: Corporal Hicks on Jun 09, 2023, 08:03:47 AMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 09, 2023, 12:52:23 AMUnderstandable.
My first play through took me about 3 months to get to the hive, then I shut it off and didn't go back for 5 years lol I did eventually beat it though
I played it through in 2 sittings over 2 days once the game showed up through my letter box. When the doors to the hive opened was when I took my first break. "Nope."
That moment the hive was revealed gave me more anxiety than I thought was possible
I noped the heck out of the game and had to finish it a week later. After all the time playing, only to run into that...Other than that? The fanboy part of me gets squirmy and a little disappointed that they never bothered including egg-morphing. Odd that they elected to include a deleted scene of Aliens as a basis for setting the plot up, but can't be arsed to do the same for a deleted scene in Alien, even if there's no Queen shown and the outbreak just sort of happens without further elaboration.
Well to be fair, the game makers did say there was a queen, they just didn't show it because then us players would have been expecting a final showdown with it, which would have taken away from the alien-experience they were shooting for. No need for egg morphing if there was a queen, but who's to say there wasn't egg morphing taking place anyway? Just like the queen, nothing is shown, so it's open to interpretation...
Also, they did add in a deleted scene from alien... sort of... there was a scene in the script for alien where they manage to lure the alien into the airlock but ash intervenes to save it. The DLC "crew expendable" is supposed to be THAT scene, but they didn't re-create the scene exactly; they made some changes to it so that it would work as a game.
I know what the makers say, but also a bit disappointed they don't explore that process further. Also, Brett is clearly pulled into the air shafts and mentioned as such too, director's cut or no director's cut, yet they show him hanging out dead on a catwalk above the landing claw.
And also...regarding the Sevastapol hive...it's like, they show 1 lone drone on the Sevastapol?
And you know there's people killed initially, but then the hive just sort of happens and is there in the game.
To remain on-topic, that was an issue in the movie, i.e., how many of those were killed or cocooned. One pointed out that given the latter for almost everyone plus the use of the sentry guns, then there'd be few left. But it's not that big a problem as Newt was captured and put in the nest.
Whatever gets you through the void is fine my sweet juicy Ralfy 😘. I've recently had some contributions approved by 20th century studios for an upcoming book 🤐, but I'm enjoying this Burke-truther movement though.
❤️
Can we have one of these threads for every movie?
We sure have one for Alien 3
Egg On The Sulaco (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=9.msg2604065#new)
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Jun 10, 2023, 06:55:49 AMCan we have one of these threads for every movie?
I think ralfy has a special grudge against this one for some reason.
I am all for discussing imperfections in the Alien films, like everything to do with the Sulaco in both Aliens and Alien³ -but do they have to be totally made up ones?
Quote from: ralfy on Jun 10, 2023, 04:07:37 AMThe company and government are not supposed to believe Ripley, but why do they send a heavily armed contingent which, according to Burke and implicitly acknowledged by Gorman, deals with particular "situations" involving "state-of-the-art firepower"? Why does Burke want to bring Ripley along? Given the point that it's a mission under "military jurisidiction," wouldn't Gorman be working under orders from superiors who, like him, have also read Ripley's brief?
Dear ralfy,
I see that you have several questions about the role of the military, Burke's actions, and what motivated them to send an armed contingent to LV-426. I believe the following explanations may provide some clarity:
Firstly, about the armed contingent, the Colonial Marines are essentially the future equivalent of today's military. They are typically deployed for a variety of missions - not exclusively related to alien life forms - and are armed with state-of-the-art firepower for almost all of them. Their heavy armament doesn't necessarily imply that they expected to encounter hostile alien life. It's more about being prepared for any eventuality, especially in this case where a colony had gone silent without any explanation.
Burke's role in all this is more complex and indeed deceptive. As a representative of Weyland-Yutani, his primary concern was protecting the company's interests. He knew Ripley's story, and unlike others, he seemed to believe there was some credibility to it - or at least saw an opportunity in investigating her claims. His motivation for bringing Ripley along likely stems from a combination of wanting her as a firsthand witness and hoping that she could help them locate the alien species if it indeed existed.
As for the military jurisdiction, Lieutenant Gorman was put in charge of the mission, but this doesn't imply that he or his superiors necessarily knew the full details of Ripley's claims. Reading a brief and fully understanding or believing the implications of an unprecedented alien encounter are two very different things. Gorman was a young and relatively inexperienced officer. He may have been aware of Ripley's account, but that doesn't mean he fully grasped its implications or even believed it.
Remember, at this point, as far as the majority of people involved were concerned, they were investigating a loss of contact with a colony. That could have been due to any number of reasons – technical failure, local insurgency, natural disaster etc. The default assumption wouldn't necessarily be an alien infestation, especially considering the skepticism around Ripley's story.
I hope this clears up some of your questions!
Best,
ChatGPT
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 10, 2023, 01:19:44 PMQuote from: ralfy on Jun 10, 2023, 04:07:37 AMThe company and government are not supposed to believe Ripley, but why do they send a heavily armed contingent which, according to Burke and implicitly acknowledged by Gorman, deals with particular "situations" involving "state-of-the-art firepower"? Why does Burke want to bring Ripley along? Given the point that it's a mission under "military jurisidiction," wouldn't Gorman be working under orders from superiors who, like him, have also read Ripley's brief?
Dear ralfy,
I see that you have several questions about the role of the military, Burke's actions, and what motivated them to send an armed contingent to LV-426. I believe the following explanations may provide some clarity:
Firstly, about the armed contingent, the Colonial Marines are essentially the future equivalent of today's military. They are typically deployed for a variety of missions - not exclusively related to alien life forms - and are armed with state-of-the-art firepower for almost all of them. Their heavy armament doesn't necessarily imply that they expected to encounter hostile alien life. It's more about being prepared for any eventuality, especially in this case where a colony had gone silent without any explanation.
Burke's role in all this is more complex and indeed deceptive. As a representative of Weyland-Yutani, his primary concern was protecting the company's interests. He knew Ripley's story, and unlike others, he seemed to believe there was some credibility to it - or at least saw an opportunity in investigating her claims. His motivation for bringing Ripley along likely stems from a combination of wanting her as a firsthand witness and hoping that she could help them locate the alien species if it indeed existed.
As for the military jurisdiction, Lieutenant Gorman was put in charge of the mission, but this doesn't imply that he or his superiors necessarily knew the full details of Ripley's claims. Reading a brief and fully understanding or believing the implications of an unprecedented alien encounter are two very different things. Gorman was a young and relatively inexperienced officer. He may have been aware of Ripley's account, but that doesn't mean he fully grasped its implications or even believed it.
Remember, at this point, as far as the majority of people involved were concerned, they were investigating a loss of contact with a colony. That could have been due to any number of reasons – technical failure, local insurgency, natural disaster etc. The default assumption wouldn't necessarily be an alien infestation, especially considering the skepticism around Ripley's story.
I hope this clears up some of your questions!
Best,
ChatGPT
Quote for increased visibility
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 10, 2023, 01:19:44 PMQuote from: ralfy on Jun 10, 2023, 04:07:37 AMThe company and government are not supposed to believe Ripley, but why do they send a heavily armed contingent which, according to Burke and implicitly acknowledged by Gorman, deals with particular "situations" involving "state-of-the-art firepower"? Why does Burke want to bring Ripley along? Given the point that it's a mission under "military jurisidiction," wouldn't Gorman be working under orders from superiors who, like him, have also read Ripley's brief?
Dear ralfy,
I see that you have several questions about the role of the military, Burke's actions, and what motivated them to send an armed contingent to LV-426. I believe the following explanations may provide some clarity:
Firstly, about the armed contingent, the Colonial Marines are essentially the future equivalent of today's military. They are typically deployed for a variety of missions - not exclusively related to alien life forms - and are armed with state-of-the-art firepower for almost all of them. Their heavy armament doesn't necessarily imply that they expected to encounter hostile alien life. It's more about being prepared for any eventuality, especially in this case where a colony had gone silent without any explanation.
Burke's role in all this is more complex and indeed deceptive. As a representative of Weyland-Yutani, his primary concern was protecting the company's interests. He knew Ripley's story, and unlike others, he seemed to believe there was some credibility to it - or at least saw an opportunity in investigating her claims. His motivation for bringing Ripley along likely stems from a combination of wanting her as a firsthand witness and hoping that she could help them locate the alien species if it indeed existed.
As for the military jurisdiction, Lieutenant Gorman was put in charge of the mission, but this doesn't imply that he or his superiors necessarily knew the full details of Ripley's claims. Reading a brief and fully understanding or believing the implications of an unprecedented alien encounter are two very different things. Gorman was a young and relatively inexperienced officer. He may have been aware of Ripley's account, but that doesn't mean he fully grasped its implications or even believed it.
Remember, at this point, as far as the majority of people involved were concerned, they were investigating a loss of contact with a colony. That could have been due to any number of reasons – technical failure, local insurgency, natural disaster etc. The default assumption wouldn't necessarily be an alien infestation, especially considering the skepticism around Ripley's story.
I hope this clears up some of your questions!
Best,
ChatGPT
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 10, 2023, 05:55:13 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jun 10, 2023, 01:19:44 PMQuote from: ralfy on Jun 10, 2023, 04:07:37 AMThe company and government are not supposed to believe Ripley, but why do they send a heavily armed contingent which, according to Burke and implicitly acknowledged by Gorman, deals with particular "situations" involving "state-of-the-art firepower"? Why does Burke want to bring Ripley along? Given the point that it's a mission under "military jurisidiction," wouldn't Gorman be working under orders from superiors who, like him, have also read Ripley's brief?
Dear ralfy,
I see that you have several questions about the role of the military, Burke's actions, and what motivated them to send an armed contingent to LV-426. I believe the following explanations may provide some clarity:
Firstly, about the armed contingent, the Colonial Marines are essentially the future equivalent of today's military. They are typically deployed for a variety of missions - not exclusively related to alien life forms - and are armed with state-of-the-art firepower for almost all of them. Their heavy armament doesn't necessarily imply that they expected to encounter hostile alien life. It's more about being prepared for any eventuality, especially in this case where a colony had gone silent without any explanation.
Burke's role in all this is more complex and indeed deceptive. As a representative of Weyland-Yutani, his primary concern was protecting the company's interests. He knew Ripley's story, and unlike others, he seemed to believe there was some credibility to it - or at least saw an opportunity in investigating her claims. His motivation for bringing Ripley along likely stems from a combination of wanting her as a firsthand witness and hoping that she could help them locate the alien species if it indeed existed.
As for the military jurisdiction, Lieutenant Gorman was put in charge of the mission, but this doesn't imply that he or his superiors necessarily knew the full details of Ripley's claims. Reading a brief and fully understanding or believing the implications of an unprecedented alien encounter are two very different things. Gorman was a young and relatively inexperienced officer. He may have been aware of Ripley's account, but that doesn't mean he fully grasped its implications or even believed it.
Remember, at this point, as far as the majority of people involved were concerned, they were investigating a loss of contact with a colony. That could have been due to any number of reasons – technical failure, local insurgency, natural disaster etc. The default assumption wouldn't necessarily be an alien infestation, especially considering the skepticism around Ripley's story.
I hope this clears up some of your questions!
Best,
ChatGPT
Aliens: A ChatGPT Analysis
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 10, 2023, 05:43:43 AMWhatever gets you through the void is fine my sweet juicy Ralfy 😘. I've recently had some contributions approved by 20th century studios for an upcoming book 🤐, but I'm enjoying this Burke-truther movement though.
❤️
It's a forum dedicated to talking about work from the
Alien franchise, and that's what I'm doing. In this case, the thread is about analyzing the movie
Aliens, and that's what I've been doing, too.
If you want to talk about your book, you can create a new thread about it.
As for a "Burke-truther movement," I think you're part of it now because you acknowledged that Burke is working as a company rep, although I wouldn't call it that. But why "truther"? My interpretation came from analyzing the movie script in light of what sounds logical.
To recap, why would a company and government that had a long history of monetizing and weaponizing finds, as Ripley points out carefully across movies, suddenly ignore something that's in the flight recorder logs and easy to investigate (which is what Burke did)? As an aside, sounds like less of a "Burke-truther movement" and more like a "Ripley-truther movement," eh?
Next, why would Ripley ignore what is essentially the only piece of evidence she has left to defend her view, and even then implicitly accept van Leuwen's excuse? From her appearance, it looks like she became bewildered after finding out that a colony had been set up, which means they'd risk infection, too? Or maybe, going against my own stance, she didn't want to pursue the point because the only way she could defend herself is to let the company ask someone from the colony investigate the site, and thus put civilians at risk? Perhaps she raised the point to van Leuwen only because she thought that no one was on the rock, and after realizing that colonists would be at risk, decided not to push the point and thus accept her punishment. Of course, that wouldn't make sense because she would have also known that the company would investigate the site regardless of what she said.
Given such, it looks like Ripley is in a jam, because it was inevitable that the colony would be infected, or anyone who investigates the site, acquires tech and organisms, and makes mistakes. We'll see more of this point later.
Not surprisingly, Burke does have the site investigated because that doesn't require a lot of work, and the colony is infected because he does not give them more details except to investigate the landing coordinates. One wildcatter is infected, just like what happened to the Nostromo crew. It doesn't make sense for Burke to rush things unless he probably thought that at some point Ripley would tell others, so he needed to know right away. But if it's true, according to the script, that the Colonial Admin allows the company mineral rights, then it's the government that owns all surface rights, and thus anyone who makes the discovery gets a cut. In which case, it would have been more logical for Burke to tell Ripley that she believes her (as that's what he was doing throughout) and that they need to visit the rock with an armed contingent to secure the site and stop any colonists from visiting it. I think Ripley would agree with him as she realizes that there's no way to stop human beings from discovering and taking advantage of alien tech and organisms, and it's unlikely that if she disagrees they'd still continue the mission without her.
This is where what I think you believe the "truther" label comes into play: not only is Burke scheming, but so's Ripley. She figures she can at least find a way to blow up the site and thus stop them exploiting the discovery.
Anyway, that's all part of speculating how the story would have been rewritten, but it does give us new readings of an actual scene from the movie, where Ripley stops Burke from not allowing them to blow up the colony site because the mission is under military jurisdiction. Notice that the fact about the alien ship is never mentioned in the movie except during the hearing and Ripley's summary of her brief to the Marines, and I think it's assumed by fans that the ship was destroyed together with the colony.
That is, because it's under military jurisdiction, then the claim that Burke was acting alone is illogical, unless one assumes that he worked alone and merely tagged along with the military. But recall, too, that Bishop had clear instructions from Burke about the facehuggers, even though some argue that Bishop is supposed to work for the military.
Thus, we have a military tech that follows instructions from a company rep. Those are additional reasons to show that not only did Burke not work alone (which, as I said, you also acknowledged), he was working for a company that was working with the government. This also means that the mission was established by both, with everything else--not only Burke's but Bishop's presence but even heavily-armed Marines--supporting that.
Lastly, what's interesting about Bishop, especially in light of Ash, is that he's a synth that works the government (given claims made following the game
Aliens: Infestation, according to one wiki entry) but also for the company (given instructions from Burke which he explains to Ripley). That would mean he would be programmed to protect human lives (which is what the military should do unless ordered otherwise) but also collect organisms and alien tech (which is what the company and even the government, which controls the military, want, i.e., following Ripley's points about the company and its bioweapons division).
This explains why he helps the human beings escape. As for the facehuggers, it was pointless to prepare them because Burke let them loose against Ripley and Newt. So what did he did to fulfill the company mission? Did he do something between repairing the transmitter and bringing down the second dropship and taking off on the latter? Can this be seen in relation to questions about eggs on the Sulaco? Oh noes. ;D
Quote from: Kradan on Jun 10, 2023, 07:04:55 AMWe sure have one for Alien 3
Egg On The Sulaco (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=9.msg2604065#new)
That's going to be interesting when we think about Bishop's presence, which is part of the military, and following instructions from Burke, who is part of the company, about preparing the facehuggers for company labs.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jun 10, 2023, 01:04:04 PMI am all for discussing imperfections in the Alien films, like everything to do with the Sulaco in both Aliens and Alien³ -but do they have to be totally made up ones?
AFAIK, most of the points raised so far come from the movie script, with a few outside it, like claims that the author is right (which means an analysis of the movie is pointless, LOL), manuals (to explain Arcturians), and games (to explain Bishop's presence).
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 10, 2023, 07:47:43 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jun 10, 2023, 01:19:44 PMQuote from: ralfy on Jun 10, 2023, 04:07:37 AMThe company and government are not supposed to believe Ripley, but why do they send a heavily armed contingent which, according to Burke and implicitly acknowledged by Gorman, deals with particular "situations" involving "state-of-the-art firepower"? Why does Burke want to bring Ripley along? Given the point that it's a mission under "military jurisidiction," wouldn't Gorman be working under orders from superiors who, like him, have also read Ripley's brief?
Dear ralfy,
I see that you have several questions about the role of the military, Burke's actions, and what motivated them to send an armed contingent to LV-426. I believe the following explanations may provide some clarity:
Firstly, about the armed contingent, the Colonial Marines are essentially the future equivalent of today's military. They are typically deployed for a variety of missions - not exclusively related to alien life forms - and are armed with state-of-the-art firepower for almost all of them. Their heavy armament doesn't necessarily imply that they expected to encounter hostile alien life. It's more about being prepared for any eventuality, especially in this case where a colony had gone silent without any explanation.
Burke's role in all this is more complex and indeed deceptive. As a representative of Weyland-Yutani, his primary concern was protecting the company's interests. He knew Ripley's story, and unlike others, he seemed to believe there was some credibility to it - or at least saw an opportunity in investigating her claims. His motivation for bringing Ripley along likely stems from a combination of wanting her as a firsthand witness and hoping that she could help them locate the alien species if it indeed existed.
As for the military jurisdiction, Lieutenant Gorman was put in charge of the mission, but this doesn't imply that he or his superiors necessarily knew the full details of Ripley's claims. Reading a brief and fully understanding or believing the implications of an unprecedented alien encounter are two very different things. Gorman was a young and relatively inexperienced officer. He may have been aware of Ripley's account, but that doesn't mean he fully grasped its implications or even believed it.
Remember, at this point, as far as the majority of people involved were concerned, they were investigating a loss of contact with a colony. That could have been due to any number of reasons – technical failure, local insurgency, natural disaster etc. The default assumption wouldn't necessarily be an alien infestation, especially considering the skepticism around Ripley's story.
I hope this clears up some of your questions!
Best,
ChatGPT
If Burke is a company rep, then that means he's not working alone.
Gorman isn't working alone, either. Who ordered him to undertake that mission?
And then there's Bishop, which according to one game works for the military but according to the movie works for Burke.
Don't waste your time with Local.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 11, 2023, 01:08:11 AMAliens: A ChatGPT Analysis
Gorman received the full brief, and prior to that he and Burke referred to "situations" that would involve "state-of-the-art firepower." Only a Local covering up with ChatGPT will fail to connect the two. ;D
As explained earlier, even Ripley referred many times to the company and its bioweapons division and making others expendable. They had the info on the landing site and it wasn't hard to investigate it. My guess is that they didn't want to do it themselves, so they made Burke point man. It's like using Ollie North, ie., following the OP's point about the Reagan era.
A brief doesn't imply that it's brief. LOL. That's why it's on disc. In addition, the military works via a chain of command, so that means Gorman was working under orders. To find out who's involved, consider not Gorman but Bishop, who's supposed to work for the military but follows orders from Burke.
Ignoring what the movie says for what you think it should say instead is not logical.
what i understand under "burke".
he was an executive working for weyland yutani. not sure what his exact function inside the company was.
he heard about a creature from ripley s hearing that has never been encountered in over 300 surveyed world that bleeds acid blood . van leeuwen states that the analysis team that went over the lifeboat found no evidence of said creature(no drooling frozen in the ship?) but that some things were co roberated: the nostromo sat down on lv 426 for reaons unknown and that the engines were detonated for reasons unknown. if i was burke i would be very keen to have a look at this
BECAUASE
who lands a ship of that size on a small planetoid for no good reason? the potential for damage is huge because that ship wasnt designed for landing on onregulated uneven surfaces. knowing that there was a directive then to investigate any thing that appeared as worthy of investigating at the threat of losing all the salary you were contracted for it would make me wonder what really happened there. added a spear gun stuck in the door. a space ship blown up at the expense of months of work.
so these things was enough for burke to think it worthy to take a look. the possibility for getting rich from it was real posibility.
also corporate greed was a common theme in 80 s movies.
he was just a greedy corporate exec trying to make a name for himself.
i dont think he had any pre knowledge of wy info on what happened with the special order or that they might have gleaned the existence of the derelict.
purely speculatively there i just think someone higher up in wy was perhaps able after seeing what happened to burke s directive to monitor the whole process and perhaps hide emergency calls for help. hoping that burke would continue. just my hypothesis. but not to burke s knowledge.
something else : if the rest of the crew was alive when ripley detonated the engines isnt she to be trialed for murder or manslaughter? because why was no one else on any of the lifeboats? how would no else be on the lifeboats. there were 6 other people on the ship. they couldn't over power her and get in the lifeboats? then she must have been alone. why didnt they prevent her from detonating the engines?
Quote from: ralfy on Jun 11, 2023, 06:09:57 AMTo find out who's involved, consider not Gorman but Bishop, who's supposed to work for the military but follows orders from Burke.
Dear ralfy,
It's clear you're passionate about the Alien series and have spent considerable time analyzing the dynamics between characters, particularly that between Burke and Bishop. However, it seems there might be a slight misunderstanding concerning the behavior and function of the artificial person, Bishop.
In "Aliens," Bishop is portrayed as an "artificial person," an advanced android designed by Weyland-Yutani but functioning under the jurisdiction of the Extrasolar Colonization Administration (ECA) during the mission. Bishop's primary directive, much like the Asimovian "laws of robotics," would be to assist and protect human life.
When Burke gives Bishop the instructions to preserve the facehugger specimens, Bishop complies not because Burke is a superior officer or because Bishop is loyal to Weyland-Yutani, but because the request doesn't contradict his programming or put any human lives in immediate danger.
Later, when Ripley instructs Bishop to destroy the specimens, he informs her of Burke's previous instructions. This shows Bishop's programming to be transparent about conflicts in orders, ensuring that humans in charge have all the information necessary to make informed decisions.
We should also keep in mind that while Bishop was designed by Weyland-Yutani, he's not inherently programmed to prioritize the corporation's interests. His primary allegiance is to the well-being and safety of the humans he serves, in this case, under the auspices of the ECA.
In conclusion, Bishop's actions and behavior are a result of his android programming, designed to follow instructions from humans that do not contravene his fundamental directives. It's less about the chain of command and more about the parameters set by his programming.
I hope this clarifies the relationship between Bishop and the characters around him in "Aliens."
Best,
ChatGPT
@ralfy We aren't going to convince you are we?
But how are there many top contributers (im not a top contributer i lurked for years and only just started cobtributing!) on this forum and massive fans going against you (one person) if you are the person who is correct? The odds are against you so to speak.
Also Bishop wasn't working for Burke so I'm not sure where that's come from and your clearly having difficulty establishing the chain of command during Aliens.
Colonial administration is what the Colonial Marines are part of.
The colony is owned by both the Colonial administration and invested in by Weyland Yutani (they provide the atmosphere processers).
The Colonial administration has sent the Colonial Marines to establish why they've lost contact with one of their colonies.
The Colonial administration and therefore the Colonial Marines on the mission have jurisdiction and are in command.
Burke tags along as a WY representative as they have a financial interest in the colony as a company. This is his perfect pretense to see if Ripley's monsters exist and by this point he's pretty sure they do. He's not in charge, he's an advisor and the Colonial administration is still in charge. They own the Sulaco, they pay the Marines, they are choosing to investigate the colony.
Weyland Yutani isnt choosing to investigate the colony themselves, they an see the Colonial administration is acting and that's fine by them. They still don't believe the Aliens are real and they still believe its something simple like a downed transmitter. They let Burke go on the mission because they aren't too concerned and at least it looks like they care a tiny bit!
Again Weyland Yutani or Burke aren't in charge of the mission, the Colonial administration and therefore the Colonial Marines on the mission are in charge. They have a larger stake in the colony as they need to be seen they care about colonist lives and colonist safety. They aren't a greedy massive corporation, they are government structured.
Bishop doesn't work for Weyland Yutani or Burke. He's a pernament member of the Sulaco crew positioned to run the ship in the absence of crew or while crew are in hypersleep or in an emergency. He's qualified to remote pilot the dropship, drive the APC etc. Bishop works for/or is owned by the Colonial administration.
Bishop only does what Burke asks (secure the dead facehuggers for transportation) because he has established they are dead and no risk to the mission or the crew. He also realises he will be informing the Colonial administration of these specimens as they would likely want to know about them, it's their colony! He doesn't ask permission from Gorman or Apone as far as we know as while they are in charge they are military and would likely go on Bishop's advice to make a science decision anyway. Now I also know when Bishop tells Ripley this Apone is dead and Gorman is out cold, however we assume Burke has asked Bishop to do this in the first instance he is studying them (before the marines have entered the hive).
That is all. Bishop isn't in on it! Bishop isn't working for Burke! Bishop just simply sees no reason at the time to go against or dispute Burkes "advice" or instruction to secure these "dead" specimens. He's very open with Ripley about what Burke has asked of him, so again nobody at that point in the movie is trying to hide anything.
I'm pretty sure Burke's intention was to bring back the live ones too. He all but said as much when he told Ripley "those two specimens are worth millions to the bio-weapons division."
And Ripley knew he was talking about the live ones because she called them dangerous. I think it's safe to say that the dead ones aren't zombies.
Almost there guys, i'm sure Ralfy is going to see reality any post now ::)
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 11, 2023, 09:32:05 AMQuote from: ralfy on Jun 11, 2023, 06:09:57 AMTo find out who's involved, consider not Gorman but Bishop, who's supposed to work for the military but follows orders from Burke.
Dear ralfy,
It's clear you're passionate about the Alien series and have spent considerable time analyzing the dynamics between characters, particularly that between Burke and Bishop. However, it seems there might be a slight misunderstanding concerning the behavior and function of the artificial person, Bishop.
In "Aliens," Bishop is portrayed as an "artificial person," an advanced android designed by Weyland-Yutani but functioning under the jurisdiction of the Extrasolar Colonization Administration (ECA) during the mission. Bishop's primary directive, much like the Asimovian "laws of robotics," would be to assist and protect human life.
When Burke gives Bishop the instructions to preserve the facehugger specimens, Bishop complies not because Burke is a superior officer or because Bishop is loyal to Weyland-Yutani, but because the request doesn't contradict his programming or put any human lives in immediate danger.
Later, when Ripley instructs Bishop to destroy the specimens, he informs her of Burke's previous instructions. This shows Bishop's programming to be transparent about conflicts in orders, ensuring that humans in charge have all the information necessary to make informed decisions.
We should also keep in mind that while Bishop was designed by Weyland-Yutani, he's not inherently programmed to prioritize the corporation's interests. His primary allegiance is to the well-being and safety of the humans he serves, in this case, under the auspices of the ECA.
In conclusion, Bishop's actions and behavior are a result of his android programming, designed to follow instructions from humans that do not contravene his fundamental directives. It's less about the chain of command and more about the parameters set by his programming.
I hope this clarifies the relationship between Bishop and the characters around him in "Aliens."
Best,
ChatGPT
Quote for added visibility
LT army rises
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 11, 2023, 01:13:43 PMI'm pretty sure Burke's intention was to bring back the live ones too. He all but said as much when he told Ripley "those two specimens are worth millions to the bio-weapons division."
And Ripley knew he was talking about the live ones because she called them dangerous. I think it's safe to say that the dead ones aren't zombies.
I was just trying to explain to Ralfy the reasons weren't there! Burke was just increasing his genocide count with the live ones.
He'd already gone too far at that point. Alone!
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jun 11, 2023, 10:14:35 AM@ralfy
We aren't going to convince you are we?
But how are there many top contributers (im not a top contributer i lurked for years and only just started cobtributing!) on this forum and massive fans going against you (one person) if you are the person who is correct? The odds are against you so to speak.
Also Bishop wasn't working for Burke so I'm not sure where that's come from and your clearly having difficulty establishing the chain of command during Aliens.
Colonial administration is what the Colonial Marines are part of.
The colony is owned by both the Colonial administration and invested in by Weyland Yutani (they provide the atmosphere processers).
The Colonial administration has sent the Colonial Marines to establish why they've lost contact with one of their colonies.
The Colonial administration and therefore the Colonial Marines on the mission have jurisdiction and are in command.
Burke tags along as a WY representative as they have a financial interest in the colony as a company. This is his perfect pretense to see if Ripley's monsters exist and by this point he's pretty sure they do. He's not in charge, he's an advisor and the Colonial administration is still in charge. They own the Sulaco, they pay the Marines, they are choosing to investigate the colony.
Weyland Yutani isnt choosing to investigate the colony themselves, they an see the Colonial administration is acting and that's fine by them. They still don't believe the Aliens are real and they still believe its something simple like a downed transmitter. They let Burke go on the mission because they aren't too concerned and at least it looks like they care a tiny bit!
Again Weyland Yutani or Burke aren't in charge of the mission, the Colonial administration and therefore the Colonial Marines on the mission are in charge. They have a larger stake in the colony as they need to be seen they care about colonist lives and colonist safety. They aren't a greedy massive corporation, they are government structured.
Bishop doesn't work for Weyland Yutani or Burke. He's a pernament member of the Sulaco crew positioned to run the ship in the absence of crew or while crew are in hypersleep or in an emergency. He's qualified to remote pilot the dropship, drive the APC etc. Bishop works for/or is owned by the Colonial administration.
Bishop only does what Burke asks (secure the dead facehuggers for transportation) because he has established they are dead and no risk to the mission or the crew. He also realises he will be informing the Colonial administration of these specimens as they would likely want to know about them, it's their colony! He doesn't ask permission from Gorman or Apone as far as we know as while they are in charge they are military and would likely go on Bishop's advice to make a science decision anyway. Now I also know when Bishop tells Ripley this Apone is dead and Gorman is out cold, however we assume Burke has asked Bishop to do this in the first instance he is studying them (before the marines have entered the hive).
That is all. Bishop isn't in on it! Bishop isn't working for Burke! Bishop just simply sees no reason at the time to go against or dispute Burkes "advice" or instruction to secure these "dead" specimens. He's very open with Ripley about what Burke has asked of him, so again nobody at that point in the movie is trying to hide anything.
I don't value ideas of top contributors or even weird arguments that only the scriptwriter is right. The only way you can convince me to change my views is to use the movie contents to counter them.
Bishop is supposed to be a tech for the military, but then he starts analyzing the facehuggers. Is is simply to find out how to defeat the aliens, or is there an additional reason?
QuoteRipley ponders the ramifications of Bishop's analysis.
Ripley: (rising) I want those specimens destroyed as soon as you're done with them. You understand?
Bishop: Mr. Burke have instructions that they were to be kept alive in stasis for return to the company labs. He was very specific.
Thus, he was referring to the live facehuggers, too. Recall, too, the claim that he's supposed to be working for the military and not for the company represented by Burke. Hence, company labs. In addition, what Burke gave was not "advice" but "instructions," and he was "very specific" about it, too.
No response from Ripley, and likely because she knows that she can't order Bishop to do otherwise. Instead, she confronts "Mr. Burke", who says:
QuoteThose specimens are worth millions to the bio-weapons division. Now, if you're smart we can both come out of this heroes. Set up for life.
You can read the rest. For now, consider
QuoteLook, maybe the thing didn't even exist, right? And if I'd made it a major security situation, the Administration would've stepped in. Then no exclusive rights, nothing.
Why did he say that? Because of this earlier point:
QuoteWell, the corporation co-financed that colony with the Colonial Administration, against mineral rights. We're getting into a lot of terraforming...'Building Better Worlds.'
In short, Colonial Admin owns the rock but grants W-Y mineral rights in exchange for terraforming. That means Colonial Admin still has surface rights.
Does that include the alien ship? That will depend on negotiations between the admin and the company. Either way, that's probably what Burke meant by "exclusive rights" and why Ripley correctly pointed out that he's working for a percentage.
In addition, Colonial Admin was part of the board:
QuoteBurke: Look, I believe you, but there are going to be some heavyweights in there. You got Feds, you got interstellar commerce commission, you got colonial administration, insurance company guys...
And you added that the Marines are under the same admin. Who is the main buyer of bioweapons, and anything sold by a military industrial complex? The same military working for admin!
So it sounds cartoonish that the same admin that benefits from bioweapons sold by the same company that it works with would show no interest in landing locations given in a flight recorder, especially given the point that it would be very easy to find out what's there. Ditto for the company that both Ripley and Burke establish is more than interested in monetizing finds.
And all for what? To stick to the claim that Burke was a cartoon villain, working alone because no one cared, not even Ripley?
So Burke merely tags along, but so does Ripley? And the Marines chosen have heavy firepower needed to deal with particular "situations"? And the same Marines work for the Colonial Admin and their higher ups, as you just established. So why would they allow Burke and Ripley to go along? And if asked for mission parameters, what would they receive if not the same brief from Ripley? It's as if to maintain the same storyline one has to imagine that Gorman was working alone, too.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 11, 2023, 01:54:28 PMAlmost there guys, i'm sure Ralfy is going to see reality any post now ::)
It's more the other way around: the premise is that Burke is a Dick Dastardly and not an Ollie North.
I prefer to stick to what's more realistic than cartoonish.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jun 11, 2023, 08:28:50 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jun 11, 2023, 01:13:43 PMI'm pretty sure Burke's intention was to bring back the live ones too. He all but said as much when he told Ripley "those two specimens are worth millions to the bio-weapons division."
And Ripley knew he was talking about the live ones because she called them dangerous. I think it's safe to say that the dead ones aren't zombies.
I was just trying to explain to Ralfy the reasons weren't there! Burke was just increasing his genocide count with the live ones.
He'd already gone too far at that point. Alone!
Local is basically supporting my arguments, and he has no choice because now he has to go back to the script and the movie instead of trolling by pretending that he's using AI.
To recap, a manual states that Bishop works for the company but he made it very clear to Ripley that he works for Burke. At the same time, it's Burke who brings Gorman alone and speaks for him to convince Ripley to join them.
Even with the absurd excuse that it's probably "just" a "downed transmitter," the conversation reveals very clearly that Burke believes that the colony has fallen due to alien infestation; hence, the clear references to the need for heavy firepower and assurances that the Marines are capable of using them in "these kinds of situations".
Since it's not only the Marines that are involved but the military which works for the government, then it's also clear that even Gorman is following orders, too. That means higherups know about the rescue, and since they are part of the same government that investigated Ripley, know why heavily armed Marines and even Ripley is needed: the need to rescue colonists who survived alien infestation.
All these and more point to the argument that Burke wasn't working alone, i.e., they don't answer to any superiors. If any, none of them were.
Dear SM,
I hope this message finds you in good health and high spirits. We've been missing your thoughtful insights and indomitable wit over at AvPGalaxy.net. There's a peculiar sort of emptiness on the message board that only you can fill. You've left a SM-shaped hole in our community and, quite frankly, things haven't been the same without you.
You might be wondering why the sudden plea for your return. Well, SM, it's a matter of balance, equilibrium if you will. As you know, every thriving community requires a variety of voices to maintain a dynamic discourse, and you, my friend, have been a critical component of that delicate ecosystem.
Specifically, your absence has allowed certain perspectives to go unchallenged. I'm referring to the views propagated by our very own ralfy. While his passion is commendable and his conviction palpable, some of his viewpoints have strayed into the realm of the irrational.
SM, your approach to discussion - tempered by logic, fortified by facts, and complemented by an eloquent turn of phrase - is sorely needed to bring some much-needed balance back into our discourse. Your formidable reasoning skills could serve as a beacon of clarity in these foggy times.
I understand that stepping back into the fray might seem daunting, especially given the vigorous debates you've had in the past. But remember, SM, it's not about 'winning' or 'losing' an argument. It's about enriching our collective understanding, offering diverse perspectives, and challenging each other to think in ways we wouldn't have considered otherwise.
So, SM, as you read this plea, remember the exhilarating debates, the rewarding exchanges of ideas, and the sense of camaraderie you once found on AvPGalaxy.net. The community is not the same without your voice. It's time for your return. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to wield your insurmountable logic once more and bring us back from the brink of unreason.
We await your triumphant return, SM. AvPGalaxy.net is calling.
Yours in anticipation,
ChatGPT
LT you have to step up here in SM's absence, must rise to the task.
LT must become new SM.
I thought that ChatGPT must become new SM. :o 👉👈
You know you have a problem when you have to rely on others who make the same mistakes you do, or worse, do so poorly you end up trolling and pretending that you're a ChatGPT parrot. LOL.
In any case, I'm not yet done, because there are several more points to consider. One was revealed recently, involving Bishop.
According to one manual, he works as some sort of tech for a Marine unit, and that's implied because of the trick he's asked by the Marines to play at the mess hall.
Given Burke's description of the unit as seen in his meeting with Ripley, it definitely specializes in "situations" involving alien life forms and attacks them or defends civilians against them. Any other tech needs are seen in several of the Marines able to bypass doors and reinforce areas, while synths like Bishop can operate transmitters and fly things like dropships remotely.
However, as shown in the movie, too, Bishop certainly works for Burke, too, and given his work at the lab, shows that he does more than just work for the Marines. Like Ash, he can analyze alien organisms and even prepare for them transport to company labs, and he briefly reveals that like Ash he finds the aliens fascinating.
This also implies that the company and the government work together, such that while Marines are tasked with particular "situations" Bishop is tasked not only to help them but to recover alien lifeforms and tech for the company.
Ripley's anger at realizing that Bishop is a synth also implies a parallel between the Nostromo crew and Sulaco personnel, and the same applies to Burke referring to Hicks as a "grunt". In short, they are all working for company and government, which in turn take every means to monetize and weaponize finds for their mutual benefit.
Sidenote: There might be something like a "good guy" in the government, i.e., the ICC. I think they're not mentioned in the first movie but their presence is implicit given quarantine procedures, while in the second movie Ripley points out that none of them would be able to bring the aliens to company labs as the ICC wouldn't allow it. But this might not be an important point if labs can be established on other planets or on the rock itself.
In which case, we understand why Bishop helped Ripley and others, because not only is he programmed not to hurt human beings he has to aid them as part of the Marines. But what did he accomplish to fulfill his mission to the company, i.e., assuming that he works for Burke because he works for W-Y? Might this be connected to reasons why the survivors also got infected and the third movie?
The movie doesn't show that Bishop works for Burke.
We don't actually need to consider points you make up because you weren't paying attention.
More word vomit!!
Quote from: SiL on Jun 13, 2023, 01:47:43 AMThe movie doesn't show that Bishop works for Burke.
We don't actually need to consider points you make up because you weren't paying attention.
I'll completely admit I glossed over the fact Burke had the live ones in mind when instructing Bishop.
But as you say there is still zero evidence in the movie Bishop takes orders or is working for Burke. He works for that particular Colonial Marine detachment, and he clearly takes orders from people like Gorman or Apone. But as I mentioned Gorman or Apone didn't really seem to care about the facehuggers dead or alive and weren't really qualified to make any decisions regarding seizing those specimens. So they probably just went along with Burke's advice and Bishop's logic in that instance.
I think Ralfy is confusing complying with a request with taking orders.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 12, 2023, 02:59:37 PMLT you have to step up here in SM's absence, must rise to the task.
LT must become new SM.
I'm too immature and cognitively challenged for that.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 13, 2023, 10:13:56 AMI think Ralfy is confusing complying with a request with taking orders.
Just wait until he regales us with his version of the "Bishop did it" theory.
Quote from: ralfy on Jun 12, 2023, 05:39:12 AMSince it's not only the Marines that are involved but the military which works for the government, then it's also clear that even Gorman is following orders, too. That means higherups know about the rescue, and since they are part of the same government that investigated Ripley, know why heavily armed Marines and even Ripley is needed: the need to rescue colonists who survived alien infestation.
Dear ralfy,
I understand where you're coming from, but it's crucial to distinguish between preparedness based on potential risk and an outright acceptance of Ripley's testimony.
Ripley's story was indeed alarming and, if true, presented a significant threat. Thus, taking into account the risk, it made sense to include Ripley in the mission and for Lieutenant Gorman to ask his team to review her account. However, this should not be interpreted as an indication that they entirely believed her account. The ECA and USCM were acting prudently based on a worst-case scenario, not necessarily on a firm belief.
Given the loss of communication with LV-426, it was entirely plausible that the issue could be something as simple as a downed transmitter. In such a scenario, Ripley's expertise would not be required. However, should her account prove accurate, her firsthand experience would be invaluable. Thus, her inclusion in the mission was more about being prepared for any eventuality, rather than a testament to her story's credibility.
Ultimately, the decision to send a team of Marines was not just a response to Ripley's account but to the unexplained loss of contact with the colony. While Ripley's story added a potential threat level to the situation, it did not dictate the course of action alone. The Marines were sent to investigate an unknown situation, prepared for a range of outcomes, including but not limited to the possibility suggested by Ripley's account.
Best,
ChatGPT
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 13, 2023, 10:52:17 AMQuote from: 426Buddy on Jun 12, 2023, 02:59:37 PMLT you have to step up here in SM's absence, must rise to the task.
LT must become new SM.
I'm too immature and cognitively challenged for that.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 13, 2023, 10:13:56 AMI think Ralfy is confusing complying with a request with taking orders.
Just wait until he regales us with his version of the "Bishop did it" theory.
Quote from: ralfy on Jun 12, 2023, 05:39:12 AMSince it's not only the Marines that are involved but the military which works for the government, then it's also clear that even Gorman is following orders, too. That means higherups know about the rescue, and since they are part of the same government that investigated Ripley, know why heavily armed Marines and even Ripley is needed: the need to rescue colonists who survived alien infestation.
Dear ralfy,
I understand where you're coming from, but it's crucial to distinguish between preparedness based on potential risk and an outright acceptance of Ripley's testimony.
Ripley's story was indeed alarming and, if true, presented a significant threat. Thus, taking into account the risk, it made sense to include Ripley in the mission and for Lieutenant Gorman to ask his team to review her account. However, this should not be interpreted as an indication that they entirely believed her account. The ECA and USCM were acting prudently based on a worst-case scenario, not necessarily on a firm belief.
Given the loss of communication with LV-426, it was entirely plausible that the issue could be something as simple as a downed transmitter. In such a scenario, Ripley's expertise would not be required. However, should her account prove accurate, her firsthand experience would be invaluable. Thus, her inclusion in the mission was more about being prepared for any eventuality, rather than a testament to her story's credibility.
Ultimately, the decision to send a team of Marines was not just a response to Ripley's account but to the unexplained loss of contact with the colony. While Ripley's story added a potential threat level to the situation, it did not dictate the course of action alone. The Marines were sent to investigate an unknown situation, prepared for a range of outcomes, including but not limited to the possibility suggested by Ripley's account.
Best,
ChatGPT
Visibility enhancement engaged
"hey ripley what happened to the other 6 people ? why were some of them not on the lifeboat with you? where were they when the engines detonated?
so you either killed or disabled all of them for no good reason. "
Quote from: oduodu on Jun 13, 2023, 02:22:36 PM"hey ripley what happened to the other 6 people ? why were some of them not on the lifeboat with you? where were they when the engines detonated?
so you either killed or disabled all of them for no good reason. "
The company accepts that the ship detonated and the other crew were killed. Wether or not they accept Ripley's explanation that they were killed by an acid bleeding Alien or by a self destruction are two completely different things.
It's explained clearly in the movie, they think she has psychological issues and PTSD because of whatever happened not because they think she went nuts and murdered the crew and then blew up the ship.
Accidents must happen to vessels in deep space all the time. Surviving crew members (if any) must be confused, traumatised, have issues dealing with these incidents on a regular basis. People under stress (they've watched their entire crew die perhaps legitimately through a malfunction aboard the vessel or an explosion or whatever) tend to have a tenancy through no fault of their own to fabricate a story to deal with it. Perhaps they thought she couldn't deal with whatever legitimately went wrong and blames herself, so she's made up a story about a space monster! She was under psychiatric evaluation at the time after all so they would have been receiving reports from her doctor to substantiate their reasoning for not believing her.
They company agrees that the ship set down on LV-426. They are simply saying that they don't believe Ripley is talking sense from the trauma of whatever has happened and so they don't believe her Alien story. Again this is backed up by the fact they have had a colony on LV-426 for 20 years with no incident. Had they not had a colony there then perhaps they would have gone and investigated before accusing Ripley of not being of sound mind!
On a slightly unrelated note but I feel slightly related to the current discussion, I've just had a similar incident with an Alien fan on an Aliens Facebook group!
This fan is telling everyone that Ridley Scott owns the Alien franchise, Ridley Scott helps with the creation of the video games especially Aliens Colonial Marines! I'm not even joking.
So when I corrected him and explained Ridley does not remotely own the franchise and that 20th Century Studios and now Disney in fact own it I was met with complete denial and non sensical argumenting. I was told of course Ridley owns it otherwise how did he manage to cancel Alien 5! I was told Aliens Colonial Marines the video game is canon because Ridley worked on it and he says so! I mean if anyone was gonna work on that game it would be Cameron not Ridley!
My point is there's no point trying with some people. Once they have a believe in their head and it fits with their agenda it's impossible to use logic or even hard facts to change their mind.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jun 13, 2023, 02:39:38 PMIt's explained clearly in the movie, they think she has psychological issues and PTSD because of whatever happened not because they think she went nuts and murdered the crew and then blew up the ship.
That's a good point. I just suggested it to our AI friend and this is what it said:
Yes, it's entirely possible that the panel at the inquest may have considered Ripley's account as a distorted memory or psychological reaction to the trauma of being the sole survivor, rather than a deliberate act of deception or wrongdoing on her part. This is a common interpretation in cases where the survivor's account of events is considered too outlandish or implausible to be true.
Drawing a parallel with Yann Martel's "Life of Pi," it's possible the panel could have thought that Ripley's story about the alien creatures was a fantastical interpretation of the more mundane, albeit tragic, events that led to the demise of the Nostromo's crew.
This perspective might explain why they allowed Ripley to go free, instead of imprisoning her for allegedly killing her crew. They might have deemed her mentally unfit and in need of psychological help rather than criminal punishment.
However, we should remember that this is speculation and the film leaves much of the inquest's reasoning and decision-making process up to interpretation. The key point is that they did not fully believe Ripley's account of an alien creature causing the disaster.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jun 13, 2023, 02:39:38 PMMy point is there's no point trying with some people. Once they have a believe in their head and it fits with their agenda it's impossible to use logic or even hard facts to change their mind.
Spoiler
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 13, 2023, 02:46:19 PMQuote from: Jonjamess on Jun 13, 2023, 02:39:38 PMIt's explained clearly in the movie, they think she has psychological issues and PTSD because of whatever happened not because they think she went nuts and murdered the crew and then blew up the ship.
That's a good point. I just suggested it to our AI friend and this is what it said:
Yes, it's entirely possible that the panel at the inquest may have considered Ripley's account as a distorted memory or psychological reaction to the trauma of being the sole survivor, rather than a deliberate act of deception or wrongdoing on her part. This is a common interpretation in cases where the survivor's account of events is considered too outlandish or implausible to be true.
Drawing a parallel with Yann Martel's "Life of Pi," it's possible the panel could have thought that Ripley's story about the alien creatures was a fantastical interpretation of the more mundane, albeit tragic, events that led to the demise of the Nostromo's crew.
This perspective might explain why they allowed Ripley to go free, instead of imprisoning her for allegedly killing her crew. They might have deemed her mentally unfit and in need of psychological help rather than criminal punishment.
However, we should remember that this is speculation and the film leaves much of the inquest's reasoning and decision-making process up to interpretation. The key point is that they did not fully believe Ripley's account of an alien creature causing the disaster.
That's what I meant, an AI came up with that?
I suggested the bit about Life of Pi, but yes.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jun 13, 2023, 02:39:38 PMQuote from: oduodu on Jun 13, 2023, 02:22:36 PM"hey ripley what happened to the other 6 people ? why were some of them not on the lifeboat with you? where were they when the engines detonated?
so you either killed or disabled all of them for no good reason. "
The company accepts that the ship detonated and the other crew were killed. Wether or not they accept Ripley's explanation that they were killed by an acid bleeding Alien or by a self destruction are two completely different things.
It's explained clearly in the movie, they think she has psychological issues and PTSD because of whatever happened not because they think she went nuts and murdered the crew and then blew up the ship.
Accidents must happen to vessels in deep space all the time. Surviving crew members (if any) must be confused, traumatised, have issues dealing with these incidents on a regular basis. People under stress (they've watched their entire crew die perhaps legitimately through a malfunction aboard the vessel or an explosion or whatever) tend to have a tenancy through no fault of their own to fabricate a story to deal with it. Perhaps they thought she couldn't deal with whatever legitimately went wrong and blames herself, so she's made up a story about a space monster! She was under psychiatric evaluation at the time after all so they would have been receiving reports from her doctor to substantiate their reasoning for not believing her.
They company agrees that the ship set down on LV-426. They are simply saying that they don't believe Ripley is talking sense from the trauma of whatever has happened and so they don't believe her Alien story. Again this is backed up by the fact they have had a colony on LV-426 for 20 years with no incident. Had they not had a colony there then perhaps they would have gone and investigated before accusing Ripley of not being of sound mind!
all good points. trying to say that i believe that it just points to something very bad or weird or out of the ordinary happening
BECAUSE
no sane person destroys a ship like that. why just not get of and leave. why was she alone?
something rather peculiar must have happened. as a member of the hearing i would have thought not even a crazy person would just did what she did.
i thought that was significanty glossed over.
Quote from: oduodu on Jun 13, 2023, 03:42:14 PMno sane person destroys a ship like that. why just not get of and leave. why was she alone?
something rather peculiar must have happened. as a member of the hearing i would have thought not even a crazy person would just did what she did.
i thought that was significanty glossed over.
ChatGPT says...
Given the information presented in the flight recorder, the inquest panel might have postulated a scenario like this:
The Nostromo lands on LV-426 due to an unidentified issue - perhaps a mechanical failure or a sensor anomaly that required physical inspection. During this unscheduled stop, the crew members may have been exposed to a hitherto unknown biological or chemical agent present on the planet. It's not unheard of for space faring crews to encounter unanticipated environmental hazards on unfamiliar planets.
The contaminant could have had psychoactive properties, causing paranoia, hallucinations, and heightened aggression among the crew. This would explain the drastic and seemingly irrational behaviors that were subsequently recorded, such as the setting of the Nostromo to self-destruct by Ripley.
In the ensuing confusion and conflict, it's plausible that the crew members could have inflicted fatal harm upon each other, whether intentionally or accidentally, leading to the destruction of the Nostromo and the deaths of all crew members save for Ripley.
As for Ripley, her hallucinations manifested as the narrative of the alien creature. This is a coping mechanism often seen in survivors of traumatic incidents, where the mind fabricates an alternative "story" to shield itself from the raw and painful truth.
Of course, this theory would be purely speculative and drawn from limited evidence, but it could provide a more "rational" explanation for the events that the panel would find easier to accept than Ripley's account of the deadly alien creature.
Quote from: oduodu on Jun 13, 2023, 03:42:14 PMQuote from: Jonjamess on Jun 13, 2023, 02:39:38 PMQuote from: oduodu on Jun 13, 2023, 02:22:36 PM"hey ripley what happened to the other 6 people ? why were some of them not on the lifeboat with you? where were they when the engines detonated?
so you either killed or disabled all of them for no good reason. "
The company accepts that the ship detonated and the other crew were killed. Wether or not they accept Ripley's explanation that they were killed by an acid bleeding Alien or by a self destruction are two completely different things.
It's explained clearly in the movie, they think she has psychological issues and PTSD because of whatever happened not because they think she went nuts and murdered the crew and then blew up the ship.
Accidents must happen to vessels in deep space all the time. Surviving crew members (if any) must be confused, traumatised, have issues dealing with these incidents on a regular basis. People under stress (they've watched their entire crew die perhaps legitimately through a malfunction aboard the vessel or an explosion or whatever) tend to have a tenancy through no fault of their own to fabricate a story to deal with it. Perhaps they thought she couldn't deal with whatever legitimately went wrong and blames herself, so she's made up a story about a space monster! She was under psychiatric evaluation at the time after all so they would have been receiving reports from her doctor to substantiate their reasoning for not believing her.
They company agrees that the ship set down on LV-426. They are simply saying that they don't believe Ripley is talking sense from the trauma of whatever has happened and so they don't believe her Alien story. Again this is backed up by the fact they have had a colony on LV-426 for 20 years with no incident. Had they not had a colony there then perhaps they would have gone and investigated before accusing Ripley of not being of sound mind!
all good points. trying to say that i believe that it just points to something very bad or weird or out of the ordinary happening
BECAUSE
no sane person destroys a ship like that. why just not get of and leave. why was she alone?
something rather peculiar must have happened. as a member of the hearing i would have thought not even a crazy person would just did what she did.
i thought that was significanty glossed over.
My massively long message was lost! They honestly aren't thinking Ripley murdered the crew.
Its 57 years later. The point is they don't care. They don't want to prosecute her because it would be a PR nightmare and they also literally can't be bothered.
You are shown clearly in the movie they can't be bothered in that board meeting. That isn't bad acting haha or similar. It's intentional subtext.
It's easier for them to assume some horrific accident happened and Ripley has PTSD. That's why they have her seeing a psychologist.
The Life of Pi thing is perfect for this analogy. There was never a tiger on that lifeboat but the sole survivor of the boat sinking tells the story so convincingly like there actually was. In the case of Aliens of course there was actually an Alien. But the board members and execs are thinking she's so traumatised there really wasn't.
It's written all over the insurance rep's face after Ripley does her "you can just kiss all that goodbye" rant:
(https://i.imgur.com/O8HoffR.jpg)
And Van Leuwen even seems to deal with Ripley as though he regards her as more of a pitiable headcase than a suspected murderer.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 13, 2023, 05:31:58 PMIt's written all over the insurance rep's face after Ripley does her "you can just kiss all that goodbye" rant:
https://i.imgur.com/O8HoffR.jpg
And Van Leuwen even seems to deal with Ripley as though he regards her as more of a pitiable headcase than a suspected murderer.
Exactly. He can't even be bothered to investigate her claims.
"There have been people there for over 20 years and they never complained about any hostile organism".
He literally just can't be arsed!
Burke explains what they think really happened on the Sulaco; malfunctioning android killed the crew.
ok they just dont give a shit.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 13, 2023, 09:02:21 PMBurke explains what they think really happened on the Sulaco; malfunctioning android killed the crew.
oh yes. so there it is. ty
Quote from: SiL on Jun 13, 2023, 09:02:21 PMBurke explains what they think really happened on the Sulaco; malfunctioning android killed the crew.
Yeah, considering that's another aspect of her story that couldn't be corroborated, it seems awfully telling that Burke mentioned Ash's "malfunction" in such a matter-of-fact way. Of course, that doesn't explain Ripley's elaborate story about an alien, so they must still think she lost her mind either during or after the whole experience.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jun 13, 2023, 08:56:12 AMQuote from: SiL on Jun 13, 2023, 01:47:43 AMThe movie doesn't show that Bishop works for Burke.
We don't actually need to consider points you make up because you weren't paying attention.
I'll completely admit I glossed over the fact Burke had the live ones in mind when instructing Bishop.
But as you say there is still zero evidence in the movie Bishop takes orders or is working for Burke. He works for that particular Colonial Marine detachment, and he clearly takes orders from people like Gorman or Apone. But as I mentioned Gorman or Apone didn't really seem to care about the facehuggers dead or alive and weren't really qualified to make any decisions regarding seizing those specimens. So they probably just went along with Burke's advice and Bishop's logic in that instance.
From the movie:
Bishop: "Mr. Burke have instructions that they were to be kept alive in stasis for return to the company labs. He was very specific."
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 13, 2023, 10:20:02 AMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 13, 2023, 01:49:56 AMMore word vomit!!
Quoted for truth
Can't do analysis, so resorts to personal insults.
Quote from: oduodu on Jun 13, 2023, 02:22:36 PM"hey ripley what happened to the other 6 people ? why were some of them not on the lifeboat with you? where were they when the engines detonated?
so you either killed or disabled all of them for no good reason. "
I think the lifeboat could only hold two people.
Quote from: ralfy on Jun 14, 2023, 02:00:18 AMQuote from: Jonjamess on Jun 13, 2023, 08:56:12 AMQuote from: SiL on Jun 13, 2023, 01:47:43 AMThe movie doesn't show that Bishop works for Burke.
We don't actually need to consider points you make up because you weren't paying attention.
I'll completely admit I glossed over the fact Burke had the live ones in mind when instructing Bishop.
But as you say there is still zero evidence in the movie Bishop takes orders or is working for Burke. He works for that particular Colonial Marine detachment, and he clearly takes orders from people like Gorman or Apone. But as I mentioned Gorman or Apone didn't really seem to care about the facehuggers dead or alive and weren't really qualified to make any decisions regarding seizing those specimens. So they probably just went along with Burke's advice and Bishop's logic in that instance.
From the movie:
Bishop: "Mr. Burke have instructions that they were to be kept alive in stasis for return to the company labs. He was very specific."
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 13, 2023, 10:20:02 AMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 13, 2023, 01:49:56 AMMore word vomit!!
Quoted for truth
Can't do analysis, so resorts to personal insults.
Quote from: oduodu on Jun 13, 2023, 02:22:36 PM"hey ripley what happened to the other 6 people ? why were some of them not on the lifeboat with you? where were they when the engines detonated?
so you either killed or disabled all of them for no good reason. "
I think the lifeboat could only hold two people.
Analysis is pointless when you make shit up lmao
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jun 13, 2023, 02:39:38 PMQuote from: oduodu on Jun 13, 2023, 02:22:36 PM"hey ripley what happened to the other 6 people ? why were some of them not on the lifeboat with you? where were they when the engines detonated?
so you either killed or disabled all of them for no good reason. "
The company accepts that the ship detonated and the other crew were killed. Wether or not they accept Ripley's explanation that they were killed by an acid bleeding Alien or by a self destruction are two completely different things.
It's explained clearly in the movie, they think she has psychological issues and PTSD because of whatever happened not because they think she went nuts and murdered the crew and then blew up the ship.
Accidents must happen to vessels in deep space all the time. Surviving crew members (if any) must be confused, traumatised, have issues dealing with these incidents on a regular basis. People under stress (they've watched their entire crew die perhaps legitimately through a malfunction aboard the vessel or an explosion or whatever) tend to have a tenancy through no fault of their own to fabricate a story to deal with it. Perhaps they thought she couldn't deal with whatever legitimately went wrong and blames herself, so she's made up a story about a space monster! She was under psychiatric evaluation at the time after all so they would have been receiving reports from her doctor to substantiate their reasoning for not believing her.
They company agrees that the ship set down on LV-426. They are simply saying that they don't believe Ripley is talking sense from the trauma of whatever has happened and so they don't believe her Alien story. Again this is backed up by the fact they have had a colony on LV-426 for 20 years with no incident. Had they not had a colony there then perhaps they would have gone and investigated before accusing Ripley of not being of sound mind!
On a slightly unrelated note but I feel slightly related to the current discussion, I've just had a similar incident with an Alien fan on an Aliens Facebook group!
This fan is telling everyone that Ridley Scott owns the Alien franchise, Ridley Scott helps with the creation of the video games especially Aliens Colonial Marines! I'm not even joking.
So when I corrected him and explained Ridley does not remotely own the franchise and that 20th Century Studios and now Disney in fact own it I was met with complete denial and non sensical argumenting. I was told of course Ridley owns it otherwise how did he manage to cancel Alien 5! I was told Aliens Colonial Marines the video game is canon because Ridley worked on it and he says so! I mean if anyone was gonna work on that game it would be Cameron not Ridley!
My point is there's no point trying with some people. Once they have a believe in their head and it fits with their agenda it's impossible to use logic or even hard facts to change their mind.
The problem isn't whether or not they accepted the fact that the ship was blown up but who would pay for it (42 million in "adjusted dollars" without the payload) and who would be responsible for the death of the remaining crew members.
The motive is pointless because even if they found Ripley guilty, she wouldn't have the means to pay for the losses. That's why the best that they could do was conclude that Ripley "acted with questionable judgment". The problem is that what started all that involved them landing on the rock, and that was initiated by the computer changing course because of a distress beacon. For some weird reason, and for a computer that's supposed to be so advanced that it could operate and maintain the ship while the crew was in hibernation, only the flight recorder data was sent to the lifeboat, and it referred only to the location of the landing site. That's actually good enough, but for another weird reason Ripley chooses not to raise that even if it's the only thing that will support her story.
In addition, putting Ripley on a leash that way also makes no sense because when backed against a corner, an embattled animal will strike back, which means Ripley might start talking to other people about what happened, and both company and government would have more difficulty investigating the find. Also, the double cartoonish view of a Burke acting alone because a profit-driven company focusing on monetizing and weaponizing finds doesn't care sounds ridiculous. What makes more sense is that both Burke and company/government are calculating, and that's very much shown across the movies.
The acknowledgment by the company that they did land on the rock actually strengthens her case because the next point to that would be the landing location, and from there her story could be validated. The claim that the company didn't care is nonsense also because as they pointed out they even had an "analysis team" which went over the lifeboat "centimeter by centimeter," which implies that although they want to show Ripley that they don't care about her story they actually do, and if Ripley had remembered what she read about the special order, she'd realize it, too.
If we follow your argument that she's suffering from PTSD, then it's possible that she didn't do that because she was acting with questionable judgment even in defending herself, which explains why she sounded crazy during the hearing and kept repeating her story even though she had no evidence to prove it. However, it's very likely her views of the company monetizing and weaponizing remained, which might be one of the reasons why she decided to join Burke.
About van Leuwen's claim that there are no aliens on the rock because the colony had been there and didn't see anything, the argument is nonsense, and I think even Ripley could have easily seen the same, because one can argue that the colonists had not happened to investigate that particular site. But I think she couldn't because she was shocked upon hearing about the colony, which gave van Leuwen enough time to slink away. LOL.
In addition, as Burke demonstrated, it's wasn't difficult to find out if there was an alien ship on the rock, as it turns out the colonists included wildcatters (which should be the case as the company was engaged in both terraforming and mining) who would be interested in discovering such in exchange for a "full share," just like, ironically, the Nostromo crew.
Thus, we have a movie where the company behaves the same way throughout and manipulates people in various ways. We have the Nostromo crew, the Jordens, and Burke working for their "full share" or percentages, for resources owned by a government that works closely with a company, and that includes Marines that work for the same government. We have an Ash and a Bishop that work for human beings but also for the company. We have a Burke and a Gorman that work alone only for those who love cartoons but are part of large corporations (W-Y for one and the military for the other) which have not only "analysis teams" and groups going on "bug hunts" using "state-of-the-art firepower" to deal with special "situations" but also top brass in boards of inquiry eager to get information from the same blue-collar workers about finds but manipulate them in the process.
That's why the OP refers to the Reagan era, with a military industrial complex driving neoconservatism and a government working to deregulate to the advantage of corporations which drives neoliberalism. And then add to that gung-ho Marines metaphorically going against "alien" VC and getting their "assed kicked" in the process.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jun 13, 2023, 03:04:30 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jun 13, 2023, 02:46:19 PMQuote from: Jonjamess on Jun 13, 2023, 02:39:38 PMIt's explained clearly in the movie, they think she has psychological issues and PTSD because of whatever happened not because they think she went nuts and murdered the crew and then blew up the ship.
That's a good point. I just suggested it to our AI friend and this is what it said:
Yes, it's entirely possible that the panel at the inquest may have considered Ripley's account as a distorted memory or psychological reaction to the trauma of being the sole survivor, rather than a deliberate act of deception or wrongdoing on her part. This is a common interpretation in cases where the survivor's account of events is considered too outlandish or implausible to be true.
Drawing a parallel with Yann Martel's "Life of Pi," it's possible the panel could have thought that Ripley's story about the alien creatures was a fantastical interpretation of the more mundane, albeit tragic, events that led to the demise of the Nostromo's crew.
This perspective might explain why they allowed Ripley to go free, instead of imprisoning her for allegedly killing her crew. They might have deemed her mentally unfit and in need of psychological help rather than criminal punishment.
However, we should remember that this is speculation and the film leaves much of the inquest's reasoning and decision-making process up to interpretation. The key point is that they did not fully believe Ripley's account of an alien creature causing the disaster.
That's what I meant, an AI came up with that?
They could have done anything they wanted, but there's still the landing location info. Unfortunately, Ripley didn't take advantage of that point, although it would have probably been futile because anyone who barged into the alien ship would have been infected, and the ones would could immediately investigate the site are the colonists.
PS. I asked our good friend ChatGPT if "word vomit" is a personal insult:
Quote"Word vomit" is not a personal insult. It is a slang term that refers to the words that come out of your mouth without any thought, often when you are drunk, embarrassed, angry, or given criticism in a social environment1. It is not intended to be an insult but rather a description of the situation.
So, therefore, based on this AI generated analysis, word vomit =/= ad hominem
Quote from: oduodu on Jun 13, 2023, 03:42:14 PMQuote from: Jonjamess on Jun 13, 2023, 02:39:38 PMQuote from: oduodu on Jun 13, 2023, 02:22:36 PM"hey ripley what happened to the other 6 people ? why were some of them not on the lifeboat with you? where were they when the engines detonated?
so you either killed or disabled all of them for no good reason. "
The company accepts that the ship detonated and the other crew were killed. Wether or not they accept Ripley's explanation that they were killed by an acid bleeding Alien or by a self destruction are two completely different things.
It's explained clearly in the movie, they think she has psychological issues and PTSD because of whatever happened not because they think she went nuts and murdered the crew and then blew up the ship.
Accidents must happen to vessels in deep space all the time. Surviving crew members (if any) must be confused, traumatised, have issues dealing with these incidents on a regular basis. People under stress (they've watched their entire crew die perhaps legitimately through a malfunction aboard the vessel or an explosion or whatever) tend to have a tenancy through no fault of their own to fabricate a story to deal with it. Perhaps they thought she couldn't deal with whatever legitimately went wrong and blames herself, so she's made up a story about a space monster! She was under psychiatric evaluation at the time after all so they would have been receiving reports from her doctor to substantiate their reasoning for not believing her.
They company agrees that the ship set down on LV-426. They are simply saying that they don't believe Ripley is talking sense from the trauma of whatever has happened and so they don't believe her Alien story. Again this is backed up by the fact they have had a colony on LV-426 for 20 years with no incident. Had they not had a colony there then perhaps they would have gone and investigated before accusing Ripley of not being of sound mind!
all good points. trying to say that i believe that it just points to something very bad or weird or out of the ordinary happening
BECAUSE
no sane person destroys a ship like that. why just not get of and leave. why was she alone?
something rather peculiar must have happened. as a member of the hearing i would have thought not even a crazy person would just did what she did.
i thought that was significanty glossed over.
Definitely. Why did she blow up the ship? Because she went crazy. Why did she go crazy? That's where one gets stuck, so one goes through the process in another way. What prompted her to blow up the ship? She claims something infested it and killed its crew, prompting her to blow up the ship. Where did this alien come from? She claims it came from a alien ship on a rock where they landed? Where is that landing site? It's indicated in the flight recorder. So let's check it out.
FWIW, even Ripley's lawyer would have probably done that, i.e., if she had one. But she didn't. Instead, she had one corporate rep (!) supporting her and who was also present in the inquiry, probably even representing the company in the board (!): Burke.
Ooops. So it looks like she did have the equivalent of a lawyer who did help her, but not in the way she would have wanted, and it was her former employer.
So, who in the board wouldn't care? Probably only the insurers, as they don't want to cover the loss even though Ripley can't pay. The feds? Not sure who they are. The ICC? Definitely, as they strongly dislike dangerous organisms passing through borders. The Colonial Admin? Definitely, as they own the rock where the alien ship was allegedly discovered, and their military would be more than interested in alien tech that could be weaponized. The company? Same, as it's strongly shown that they are very interested in monetizing finds.
Quote from: ralfy on Jun 14, 2023, 02:00:18 AMFrom the movie:
Bishop: "Mr. Burke have instructions that they were to be kept alive in stasis for return to the company labs. He was very specific."
Which, again, isn't evidence of "taking orders". Bishop doesn't even say what he was planning to do -- Ripley says destroy them, he says Burke instructed him to keep them alive. If he complied with Ripley's request, would Bishop be under Ripley's control? Of course not.
Burke then reveals he was planning on smuggling the specimens, not declaring them legally, which he obviously didn't tell Bishop. He then changes his plan to smuggling embryos when Ripley says he'll report the specimens.
Also the same scene where he flat out says he didn't tell anybody else what he was doing when he sent the colonists to investigate the derelict because, if the ship did exist, he wanted exclusive rights.
I bet you got through to him this time.
You know, the ignore button brings so much bliss... I haven't had to read any of Ralfy's tripe for days... I just see the aftermath of replies and ponder what it was today...maybe its a Bishop works for Burke kinda day... maybe WeYu is the government/illuminati, maybe it's just a "eVeRyOnE kNeW aBOut ThE dErElicT 'cAusE oF tHE NosTRomOs bLaCK bOX...SOMEONE ANSWER THIS" sorta vibe... ahh the possibilities 😂
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 14, 2023, 05:38:40 AMI bet you got through to him this time.
Only a few more posts and it'll be settled me thinks.
Quote from: ralfy on Jun 14, 2023, 02:00:18 AMQuote from: Jonjamess on Jun 13, 2023, 08:56:12 AMQuote from: SiL on Jun 13, 2023, 01:47:43 AMThe movie doesn't show that Bishop works for Burke.
We don't actually need to consider points you make up because you weren't paying attention.
I'll completely admit I glossed over the fact Burke had the live ones in mind when instructing Bishop.
But as you say there is still zero evidence in the movie Bishop takes orders or is working for Burke. He works for that particular Colonial Marine detachment, and he clearly takes orders from people like Gorman or Apone. But as I mentioned Gorman or Apone didn't really seem to care about the facehuggers dead or alive and weren't really qualified to make any decisions regarding seizing those specimens. So they probably just went along with Burke's advice and Bishop's logic in that instance.
From the movie:
Bishop: "Mr. Burke have instructions that they were to be kept alive in stasis for return to the company labs. He was very specific."
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 13, 2023, 10:20:02 AMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 13, 2023, 01:49:56 AMMore word vomit!!
Quoted for truth
Can't do analysis, so resorts to personal insults.
Quote from: oduodu on Jun 13, 2023, 02:22:36 PM"hey ripley what happened to the other 6 people ? why were some of them not on the lifeboat with you? where were they when the engines detonated?
so you either killed or disabled all of them for no good reason. "
I think the lifeboat could only hold two people.
i think there was 2 lifeboats
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 14, 2023, 11:31:56 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jun 14, 2023, 05:38:40 AMI bet you got through to him this time.
Only a few more posts and it'll be settled me thinks.
lmfao
bishop is a piece of machinery governed by asimov s 3 robot laws. his work is to do whatever he is programmed to do. as the property of wy he is applying his programming on a ship owned by his creators and programmers. burke as an employee of wy might therefore be in a authorative position as per bishop s prigramming more than the marines. but he doesnt work for burke personally. hence he cannot do something illegal even if ordered by burke .
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 14, 2023, 05:38:40 AMI bet you got through to him this time.
😂
Quote from: oduodu on Jun 14, 2023, 01:21:33 PMQuote from: ralfy on Jun 14, 2023, 02:00:18 AMQuote from: Jonjamess on Jun 13, 2023, 08:56:12 AMQuote from: SiL on Jun 13, 2023, 01:47:43 AMThe movie doesn't show that Bishop works for Burke.
We don't actually need to consider points you make up because you weren't paying attention.
I'll completely admit I glossed over the fact Burke had the live ones in mind when instructing Bishop.
But as you say there is still zero evidence in the movie Bishop takes orders or is working for Burke. He works for that particular Colonial Marine detachment, and he clearly takes orders from people like Gorman or Apone. But as I mentioned Gorman or Apone didn't really seem to care about the facehuggers dead or alive and weren't really qualified to make any decisions regarding seizing those specimens. So they probably just went along with Burke's advice and Bishop's logic in that instance.
From the movie:
Bishop: "Mr. Burke have instructions that they were to be kept alive in stasis for return to the company labs. He was very specific."
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 13, 2023, 10:20:02 AMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 13, 2023, 01:49:56 AMMore word vomit!!
Quoted for truth
Can't do analysis, so resorts to personal insults.
Quote from: oduodu on Jun 13, 2023, 02:22:36 PM"hey ripley what happened to the other 6 people ? why were some of them not on the lifeboat with you? where were they when the engines detonated?
so you either killed or disabled all of them for no good reason. "
I think the lifeboat could only hold two people.
i think there was 2 lifeboats
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 14, 2023, 11:31:56 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jun 14, 2023, 05:38:40 AMI bet you got through to him this time.
Only a few more posts and it'll be settled me thinks.
lmfao
bishop is a piece of machinery governed by asimov s 3 robot laws. his work is to do whatever he is programmed to do. as the property of wy he is applying his programming on a ship owned by his creators and programmers. burke as an employee of wy might therefore be in a authorative position as per bishop s prigramming more than the marines. but he doesnt work for burke personally. hence he cannot do something illegal even if ordered by burke .
Yes. There were two life boats.
But it doesn't matter... the second lifeboat was either missing or out of service. They never address this on-screen, and only refer to a singular shuttle, so the nostromo crew must have been well aware that they only had one functioning shuttle.
You can see the second shuttle on one of Martin Bower's original model drawings/schematics, so that concept of a second shuttle has been there from the start.
My personal head-canon: I like to believe weyland yutani was cheap, and cutting corners, by not servicing their space craft like normal. As a result, Brett and Parker had to scrap one of the shuttles for parts to keep the main ship flying.
Well, for the shuttle and some of the equipment and electrical systems I'd imagine that's actually the canon reason.
Now for things like the computers and stuff looking 'cheap' (like they were made in 1978, eh, eh? :b), the simplest explanation is just that it's an aesthetic design choice.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 14, 2023, 10:51:18 PMWell, for the shuttle and some of the equipment and electrical systems I'd imagine that's actually the canon reason.
Now for things like the computers and stuff looking 'cheap' (like they were made in 1978, eh, eh? :b), the simplest explanation is just that it's an aesthetic design choice.
It's a world very much like Blade Runner (if not the same world), where the digital revolution never happened, and analogue technology is still mainstream (so long as we disregard Prometheus and Covenant's retcon).
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jun 14, 2023, 11:26:22 PMQuote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 14, 2023, 10:51:18 PMWell, for the shuttle and some of the equipment and electrical systems I'd imagine that's actually the canon reason.
Now for things like the computers and stuff looking 'cheap' (like they were made in 1978, eh, eh? :b), the simplest explanation is just that it's an aesthetic design choice.
It's a world very much like Blade Runner (if not the same world), where the digital revolution never happened, and analogue technology is still mainstream (so long as we disregard Prometheus and Covenant's retcon).
I was gonna go a bit further and state that although the displays are clearly 1970s CRT monitors disguised as futuristic displays,( and this can especially be seen in medium shots where they've attempted to frame-sync the monitors to the film cameras rate) whenever there's an insert of an extreme closeup, and they're only interested in the display screen, it's always impossibly-clear (for 1979's computer standards)resolution, to the point of almost resembling drawn animation (it was drawn after all). So I don't know if the analogue-punk should be taken too literally when dealing with Alien.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jun 14, 2023, 11:26:22 PMQuote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 14, 2023, 10:51:18 PMWell, for the shuttle and some of the equipment and electrical systems I'd imagine that's actually the canon reason.
Now for things like the computers and stuff looking 'cheap' (like they were made in 1978, eh, eh? :b), the simplest explanation is just that it's an aesthetic design choice.
It's a world very much like Blade Runner (if not the same world), where the digital revolution never happened, and analogue technology is still mainstream (so long as we disregard Prometheus and Covenant's retcon).
Blade runner is its own universe. The timelines don't match up; blade runner's universe severely contradicts the timeline of the alien universe.
I don't think prometheus and covenant are really retcons just because they show more advanced tech than the previous films. I could easily see a company sticking with older tech on less important "tug boats" than a science vessel to save money. For example, I used to work in an applied research lab, and most of my equipment was analogue (my choice at the time) because it's cheaper and got the same job done as the digital stuff (plus, I know how to fix analogue equipment if it breaks). That being said, the real reason that alien has that low tech future is really just an artifact of the times when the film was made; I bet if ridley Scott re-made the film today, it would look more like prometheus and covenant did as far as the tech goes...
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 14, 2023, 11:37:18 PMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jun 14, 2023, 11:26:22 PMQuote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 14, 2023, 10:51:18 PMWell, for the shuttle and some of the equipment and electrical systems I'd imagine that's actually the canon reason.
Now for things like the computers and stuff looking 'cheap' (like they were made in 1978, eh, eh? :b), the simplest explanation is just that it's an aesthetic design choice.
It's a world very much like Blade Runner (if not the same world), where the digital revolution never happened, and analogue technology is still mainstream (so long as we disregard Prometheus and Covenant's retcon).
Blade runner is its own universe. The timelines don't match up; blade runner's universe severely contradicts the timeline of the alien universe.
I don't think prometheus and covenant are really retcons just because they show more advanced tech than the previous films. I could easily see a company sticking with older tech on less important "tug boats" than a science vessel to save money. For example, I used to work in an applied research lab, and most of my equipment was analogue (my choice at the time) because it's cheaper and got the same job done as the digital stuff (plus, I know how to fix analogue equipment if it breaks). That being said, the real reason that alien has that low tech future is really just an artifact of the times when the film was made; I bet if ridley Scott re-made the film today, it would look more like prometheus and covenant did as far as the tech goes...
It's obviously the real reason. But there's no also reason they couldn't simply get modern displays and put them in late 70s era chassis and work up a Nostromo-style terminal OS.
You could cheat a bit when showing them off too. Have a clearly old looking display doing things that no display of that era could like display in real time to indicate that it's the future and the tech is more alien and powerful than we know.
Have you ever seen that video of the guy that reprogrammed a Zenneth Tube to display like a Pip boy OS? It ends up looking creepy and fantastical in a way that might work to the universe's benefit.
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 14, 2023, 11:37:18 PMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jun 14, 2023, 11:26:22 PMQuote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 14, 2023, 10:51:18 PMWell, for the shuttle and some of the equipment and electrical systems I'd imagine that's actually the canon reason.
Now for things like the computers and stuff looking 'cheap' (like they were made in 1978, eh, eh? :b), the simplest explanation is just that it's an aesthetic design choice.
It's a world very much like Blade Runner (if not the same world), where the digital revolution never happened, and analogue technology is still mainstream (so long as we disregard Prometheus and Covenant's retcon).
Blade runner is its own universe. The timelines don't match up; blade runner's universe severely contradicts the timeline of the alien universe.
I don't think prometheus and covenant are really retcons just because they show more advanced tech than the previous films. I could easily see a company sticking with older tech on less important "tug boats" than a science vessel to save money. For example, I used to work in an applied research lab, and most of my equipment was analogue (my choice at the time) because it's cheaper and got the same job done as the digital stuff (plus, I know how to fix analogue equipment if it breaks). That being said, the real reason that alien has that low tech future is really just an artifact of the times when the film was made; I bet if ridley Scott re-made the film today, it would look more like prometheus and covenant did as far as the tech goes...
At a stretch, I could get on board with Prometheus having better tech on account that Weyland himself was on board the ship, and he was cashing in on potentially extending his life. But not Covenant... it's a colony ship, decades before Hadley's Hope which clearly had analogue terminals for floor plans etc (no holographic technology). And whilst it's true that the movies can be considered 'of their time' - the fact remains that 'Alien Isolation' (or for a movie comparison; 'Blade Runner 2049') didn't feel the need to retcon what came before them / respected established canon, despite when they were made. (That isn't me hating on Prometheus or Covenant btw, I enjoy them very much, but Ridley Scott could have and should have followed through with the analogue tech... hell, it's my least favourite, but even Resurrection uses analogue tech, and that's a further 200 years after aliens 😅
I'll stick with the Aesthetic Choice theory cause it makes my head hurt less. :p Although I don't necessarily dislike the use of anologue-ey aesthetics for some of the video displays.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jun 14, 2023, 09:21:45 AMYou know, the ignore button brings so much bliss... I haven't had to read any of Ralfy's tripe for days... I just see the aftermath of replies and ponder what it was today...maybe its a Bishop works for Burke kinda day... maybe WeYu is the government/illuminati, maybe it's just a "eVeRyOnE kNeW aBOut ThE dErElicT 'cAusE oF tHE NosTRomOs bLaCK bOX...SOMEONE ANSWER THIS" sorta vibe... ahh the possibilities 😂
Time for me to do the same, then, and only because you're now resorting to trolling, e.g., compares getting details from a movie with references to the illuminati, and then give more personal insults like using 4chan typing. That's the height of trolling.
Quote from: oduodu on Jun 14, 2023, 01:21:33 PMQuote from: ralfy on Jun 14, 2023, 02:00:18 AMQuote from: Jonjamess on Jun 13, 2023, 08:56:12 AMQuote from: SiL on Jun 13, 2023, 01:47:43 AMThe movie doesn't show that Bishop works for Burke.
We don't actually need to consider points you make up because you weren't paying attention.
I'll completely admit I glossed over the fact Burke had the live ones in mind when instructing Bishop.
But as you say there is still zero evidence in the movie Bishop takes orders or is working for Burke. He works for that particular Colonial Marine detachment, and he clearly takes orders from people like Gorman or Apone. But as I mentioned Gorman or Apone didn't really seem to care about the facehuggers dead or alive and weren't really qualified to make any decisions regarding seizing those specimens. So they probably just went along with Burke's advice and Bishop's logic in that instance.
From the movie:
Bishop: "Mr. Burke have instructions that they were to be kept alive in stasis for return to the company labs. He was very specific."
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 13, 2023, 10:20:02 AMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 13, 2023, 01:49:56 AMMore word vomit!!
Quoted for truth
Can't do analysis, so resorts to personal insults.
Quote from: oduodu on Jun 13, 2023, 02:22:36 PM"hey ripley what happened to the other 6 people ? why were some of them not on the lifeboat with you? where were they when the engines detonated?
so you either killed or disabled all of them for no good reason. "
I think the lifeboat could only hold two people.
i think there was 2 lifeboats
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 14, 2023, 11:31:56 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jun 14, 2023, 05:38:40 AMI bet you got through to him this time.
Only a few more posts and it'll be settled me thinks.
lmfao
bishop is a piece of machinery governed by asimov s 3 robot laws. his work is to do whatever he is programmed to do. as the property of wy he is applying his programming on a ship owned by his creators and programmers. burke as an employee of wy might therefore be in a authorative position as per bishop s prigramming more than the marines. but he doesnt work for burke personally. hence he cannot do something illegal even if ordered by burke .
From what I remember, there was only one, and that could hold two crew members. That's why when that was raised when only three of them were left, Ripley said they'll figure out what to do after. That became a non-issue when only she survived.
About Asimov's point, I don't know know what people would say about Ash.
According to one manual, Bishop works for the Marines. In which case, he would not bother following what "Mr. Burke" wants. Besides, as Ripley points out, the mission is under military jurisdiction, unless the government works with the company (who else would buy bioweapons if not the military?). In which case, this also explains why Bishop was analyzing the facehuggers as the Marines were out on a mission.
And yet he makes it very clear that he does and points that out to Ripley. Instead of arguing with him, Ripley goes to Burke and argues with him instead.
Bishop doesn't have to work for Burke personally because he likely works for the company, just like Burke, and what the company would want is for them to send the facehuggers to company labs.
About doing something illegal, you're right, because Ripley would point out later that they wouldn't get pass the ICC with the facehuggers, which is why Burke decided to have Ripley and Newt infected. That also shows that Burke is making mistakes because he would have known that, too, which is why his instructions to Bishop don't make sense. The same would apply to government and company. What happened, then?
I think they assumed that just like in the first movie, there would be only one alien, and that the Marines would be able to take it down readily. After which, they would rescue survivors and in bring more company and government personnel to secure both the colony and the alien ship, and then even set up company labs nearby. That way, there'd be no violation of ICC regulations.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 14, 2023, 10:51:18 PMWell, for the shuttle and some of the equipment and electrical systems I'd imagine that's actually the canon reason.
Now for things like the computers and stuff looking 'cheap' (like they were made in 1978, eh, eh? :b), the simplest explanation is just that it's an aesthetic design choice.
It actually helped because one point was to create a blue-collar atmosphere, e.g., space truckers and grunts. For the second movie, I think they had budget constraints, so the film crew used aircraft and military surplus nearby.
To recap, we have an additional point about the illegality of transporting alien organisms and Burke's orders to Bishop to prepare the facehuggers for such. He made the mistake of knowing that the ICC would block them, and probably only when Ripley started confronting him about his instructions to Bishop. He made a mistake with that, too, because from the hearing and from his discussion with Ripley, she made it very clear that she was very much against it:
QuoteRipley: Burke, just tell me one thing. That you're going out there to kill them. Not study. Not bring back. Just burn them out...clean ...forever.
Burke: That's the plan. My word on it.
Also, that sounds believable given Burke's point that they just want to secure the terraforming project, but Ripley would have wondered why they're sending a heavily armed team, and she is needed. That would only mean that the colony had been infected, and that meant that they found the alien ship. But was it accidental? Van Leuwen pointed out that they had been there two decades and saw nothing, which means they were sent to it.
In which case, Ripley would have anticipated the following, which is why she agreed to join them: that just like in the first movie, there'd probably be only one alien, and that the Marines would be able to destroy it, and from there she'd argue with Burke about the alien ship, etc. But if the company had the nerve to send someone to check out the alien ship, then it's likely that they had plans to monetize the find.
This also puts to question the weird view that the company didn't care, and then suddenly cared after the colonists found the alien ship. That line of thinking sounds ridiculous, as companies care for the bottom line, which is maximization of profits. In which case, whatever special order they implicitly argue to Ripley they know nothing about remained in place. In short, nothing changed throughout the decades that Ripley was gone.
Quote from: ralfy on Jun 15, 2023, 01:46:31 AMAbout doing something illegal, you're right, because Ripley would point out later that they wouldn't get pass the ICC with the facehuggers, which is why Burke decided to have Ripley and Newt infected. That also shows that Burke is making mistakes because he would have known that, too, which is why his instructions to Bishop don't make sense. The same would apply to government and company. What happened, then?
Dear ralfy,
I understand your points about Burke's actions seeming to contradict his knowledge of ICC protocols, however, it's important to consider the mindset and motivations of Burke during the events of Aliens. Burke was operating out of desperation and was primarily motivated by two objectives: 1) he wanted to bring back the xenomorph specimens to Earth for Weyland-Yutani's bio-weapons division, and 2) he needed to evade accountability for his role in the disaster on LV-426.
As you rightly pointed out, Bishop, the synthetic lifeform, was following the protocols set by Weyland-Yutani and the ECA. Bishop was also taking instructions from Burke, as he was programmed to do, and since none of these instructions were in direct conflict with his primary programming of not causing harm to humans, he proceeded with his analysis of the specimens.
When Burke initially directed Bishop to preserve the facehugger specimens, it's likely he was planning to smuggle them back to Earth in a covert manner, circumventing ICC quarantine and import regulations. Bishop might not have been aware of this ulterior motive because Burke did not divulge it, and Bishop had no reason to question Burke's intentions, given his programming.
However, when Ripley discovered Burke's plot and threatened to expose him to the ICC, it became clear to Burke that his scheme was in jeopardy. Not only was his career at risk, but he also faced possible criminal charges for his role in the loss of the Hadley's Hope colony. In a desperate move to avoid both these outcomes, Burke decided to infect Ripley and Newt with the xenomorphs.
This was a drastic but calculated move by Burke. By ensuring Ripley and Newt were infected, he effectively silenced Ripley while still ensuring the safe transport of the xenomorph specimens back to Earth. This course of action, albeit reckless, was his attempt to kill two birds with one stone.
In conclusion, Burke's actions throughout the film can be understood as desperate measures taken by a man cornered by his own ambition and duplicity. His choices may not have been logical from an ethical standpoint, but they were guided by his personal objectives and the dire circumstances he found himself in.
Best,
ChatGPT
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 15, 2023, 02:41:16 AMQuote from: ralfy on Jun 15, 2023, 01:46:31 AMAbout doing something illegal, you're right, because Ripley would point out later that they wouldn't get pass the ICC with the facehuggers, which is why Burke decided to have Ripley and Newt infected. That also shows that Burke is making mistakes because he would have known that, too, which is why his instructions to Bishop don't make sense. The same would apply to government and company. What happened, then?
Dear ralfy,
I understand your points about Burke's actions seeming to contradict his knowledge of ICC protocols, however, it's important to consider the mindset and motivations of Burke during the events of Aliens. Burke was operating out of desperation and was primarily motivated by two objectives: 1) he wanted to bring back the xenomorph specimens to Earth for Weyland-Yutani's bio-weapons division, and 2) he needed to evade accountability for his role in the disaster on LV-426.
As you rightly pointed out, Bishop, the synthetic lifeform, was following the protocols set by Weyland-Yutani and the ECA. Bishop was also taking instructions from Burke, as he was programmed to do, and since none of these instructions were in direct conflict with his primary programming of not causing harm to humans, he proceeded with his analysis of the specimens.
When Burke initially directed Bishop to preserve the facehugger specimens, it's likely he was planning to smuggle them back to Earth in a covert manner, circumventing ICC quarantine and import regulations. Bishop might not have been aware of this ulterior motive because Burke did not divulge it, and Bishop had no reason to question Burke's intentions, given his programming.
However, when Ripley discovered Burke's plot and threatened to expose him to the ICC, it became clear to Burke that his scheme was in jeopardy. Not only was his career at risk, but he also faced possible criminal charges for his role in the loss of the Hadley's Hope colony. In a desperate move to avoid both these outcomes, Burke decided to infect Ripley and Newt with the xenomorphs.
This was a drastic but calculated move by Burke. By ensuring Ripley and Newt were infected, he effectively silenced Ripley while still ensuring the safe transport of the xenomorph specimens back to Earth. This course of action, albeit reckless, was his attempt to kill two birds with one stone.
In conclusion, Burke's actions throughout the film can be understood as desperate measures taken by a man cornered by his own ambition and duplicity. His choices may not have been logical from an ethical standpoint, but they were guided by his personal objectives and the dire circumstances he found himself in.
Best,
ChatGPT
Visibility amplification
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jun 14, 2023, 11:59:48 PMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 14, 2023, 11:37:18 PMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jun 14, 2023, 11:26:22 PMQuote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 14, 2023, 10:51:18 PMWell, for the shuttle and some of the equipment and electrical systems I'd imagine that's actually the canon reason.
Now for things like the computers and stuff looking 'cheap' (like they were made in 1978, eh, eh? :b), the simplest explanation is just that it's an aesthetic design choice.
It's a world very much like Blade Runner (if not the same world), where the digital revolution never happened, and analogue technology is still mainstream (so long as we disregard Prometheus and Covenant's retcon).
Blade runner is its own universe. The timelines don't match up; blade runner's universe severely contradicts the timeline of the alien universe.
I don't think prometheus and covenant are really retcons just because they show more advanced tech than the previous films. I could easily see a company sticking with older tech on less important "tug boats" than a science vessel to save money. For example, I used to work in an applied research lab, and most of my equipment was analogue (my choice at the time) because it's cheaper and got the same job done as the digital stuff (plus, I know how to fix analogue equipment if it breaks). That being said, the real reason that alien has that low tech future is really just an artifact of the times when the film was made; I bet if ridley Scott re-made the film today, it would look more like prometheus and covenant did as far as the tech goes...
At a stretch, I could get on board with Prometheus having better tech on account that Weyland himself was on board the ship, and he was cashing in on potentially extending his life. But not Covenant... it's a colony ship, decades before Hadley's Hope which clearly had analogue terminals for floor plans etc (no holographic technology). And whilst it's true that the movies can be considered 'of their time' - the fact remains that 'Alien Isolation' (or for a movie comparison; 'Blade Runner 2049') didn't feel the need to retcon what came before them / respected established canon, despite when they were made. (That isn't me hating on Prometheus or Covenant btw, I enjoy them very much, but Ridley Scott could have and should have followed through with the analogue tech... hell, it's my least favourite, but even Resurrection uses analogue tech, and that's a further 200 years after aliens 😅
That's just it though... it isn't a canon issue; it's an aesthetic issue...
Using my own working-experience as an example again though, I used a lot of analogue equipment in my lab, but once one of my projects left the lab and went to pilot-testing, they typically splurged for all the fancy bells and whistles. So I don't think it's that far fetched for a single company to use different tech in varying situations like we see on screen.
And in the case of the covenant specifically, I could see them having more of the bells and whistles than a tug-boat, shake'n'bake colony full of prospectors, or a prison complex would have. Resurrection is the odd-man out imo. I would expect a military vessel 200 years later to be more advanced, but then again it's the military, which perhaps they were more function over form, or something...
sorry i have never gone into such detail. the salaco was marine property. so bishop was more or less more under burke s authority. uss was a dead give away.
Quote from: oduodu on Jun 15, 2023, 06:23:06 AMsorry i have never gone into such detail. the salaco was marine property. so bishop was more or less more under burke s authority. uss was a dead give away.
Quote from: SM on Feb 17, 2011, 02:58:09 AMThe marines are effectively the security arm of the ECA. Extrasolar Colonisation Administration; US Colonial Marine Corps - see the connection? Hadley's Hope was a WY/ ECA joint venture. Cameron even says Bishop is ECA in the script.
Bishop is 100% not WY owned or operated. Hell, all Bishop II says the following movie is he designed the model. WY making androids didn't become a thing in the movies until AvP called Weyland "the father of modern robotics" which was then taken further in Prometheus.
👍
who made and programmed ash?
Hyperdyne Systems
who owned ash?
who operated ash?
or did wy hire him from hyperdyne systems? or whoever put him up for rent?
Ash was made by Hyperdyne, owned and operated by WY.
just tryimg to make the point that burke was working alone for his self own interests to get ahead and that bishop wasnt a robot aidimg him in that regard
AS IN
"the people who instructed him to return a specimem secretly programmed bishop to aid him in said venture"
It's worth noting that Bishop never did destroy those specimens like Ripley told him to. As I've said before, Bishop may have had no justifiable reason to defy Burke's instructions, which were both reasonable and legal so long as the containment and transport of those specimens adhered to ICC protocols. Ripley would have therefore needed more than just another fearful tantrum to countermand him.
If she had marched right back to Bishop after her confrontation with Burke and told him that Burke intended to smuggle those specimens past ICC quarantine, Burke would have just denied her accusations and they'd be right back to square one. Besides, she may have figured that her threats alone would be enough to dissuade Burke from even trying to bring them back. He had bigger problems to worry about at that point.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 15, 2023, 12:14:39 PMIt's worth noting that Bishop never did destroy those specimens like Ripley told him to. As I've said before, Bishop may have had no justifiable reason to defy Burke's instructions, which were both reasonable and legal so long as the containment and transport of those specimens adhered to ICC protocols. Ripley would have therefore needed more than just another fearful tantrum to countermand him.
If she had marched right back to Bishop after her confrontation with Burke and told him that Burke intended to smuggle those specimens past ICC quarantine, Burke would have just denied her accusations and they'd be right back to square one. Besides, she may have figured that her threats alone would be enough to dissuade Burke from even trying to bring them back. He had bigger problems to worry about at that point.
Come to think of it, if United Systems Military wanted the alien, why wouldn't a few higher-ups at UA Military want that as well?
By the time of AR there was actual proof of the aliens' existence and, more importantly, their combat effectiveness. I doubt any higher-ups in the UA military paid much attention to Ripley's outlandish story of a killer star beast prior to the Sulaco's mission. Even if they did, I doubt they'd see enough value in it to join some grand conspiracy just because it happened to kill a few space truckers.
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 14, 2023, 11:37:18 PMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jun 14, 2023, 11:26:22 PMQuote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 14, 2023, 10:51:18 PMWell, for the shuttle and some of the equipment and electrical systems I'd imagine that's actually the canon reason.
Now for things like the computers and stuff looking 'cheap' (like they were made in 1978, eh, eh? :b), the simplest explanation is just that it's an aesthetic design choice.
It's a world very much like Blade Runner (if not the same world), where the digital revolution never happened, and analogue technology is still mainstream (so long as we disregard Prometheus and Covenant's retcon).
Blade runner is its own universe. The timelines don't match up; blade runner's universe severely contradicts the timeline of the alien universe.
I don't think prometheus and covenant are really retcons just because they show more advanced tech than the previous films. I could easily see a company sticking with older tech on less important "tug boats" than a science vessel to save money. For example, I used to work in an applied research lab, and most of my equipment was analogue (my choice at the time) because it's cheaper and got the same job done as the digital stuff (plus, I know how to fix analogue equipment if it breaks). That being said, the real reason that alien has that low tech future is really just an artifact of the times when the film was made; I bet if ridley Scott re-made the film today, it would look more like prometheus and covenant did as far as the tech goes...
I definitely agree the world's aren't the same. It's an Easter egg.
And I can't keep up with you
@ralfy veacuse it's becoming abnoxious now.
You're wrong. James Cameron wrote the movie and he says your wrong. He says that because his intentions for the story he wrote go against yours. That's literally the end of it.
For a while, there was either an official or fan attempt to push the date of Blade Runner to 2119 rather than 2019, presumably to make it fit with Alien (or maybe a different reason). This has always been silly. Other than the FX team re-using the "Purge" display and having the same production team, there's no reason to think they're in the same universe.
Then again, Alien has the UPP, Blade runner has the CCCP existing in an 80s style Soviet state, so there's also that similarity. One of them takes place in an alternate 20th/21st century, the other is a zeerust future.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 15, 2023, 07:53:53 PMFor a while, there was either an official or fan attempt to push the date of Blade Runner to 2119 rather than 2019, presumably to make it fit with Alien (or maybe a different reason). This has always been silly. Other than the FX team re-using the "Purge" display and having the same production team, there's no reason to think they're in the same universe.
Then again, Alien has the UPP, Blade runner has the CCCP existing in an 80s style Soviet state, so there's also that similarity. One of them takes place in an alternate 20th/21st century, the other is a zeerust future.
I'm betting that was a fan attempt. I don't see the movie studios pursuing that, since the IPs are both owned by completely different studios.
(And before anyone says anything, spider-man was a special case lol)
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 15, 2023, 12:14:39 PMIt's worth noting that Bishop never did destroy those specimens like Ripley told him to.
She does say "when you're finished". I think the whole getting everyone evacuated thing interrupted him.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 15, 2023, 08:35:00 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jun 15, 2023, 12:14:39 PMIt's worth noting that Bishop never did destroy those specimens like Ripley told him to.
She does say "when you're finished". I think the whole getting everyone evacuated thing interrupted him.
Seems to me like all bishop needed to do to destroy the specimens (and comply with Ripley's command) was to leave them behind and let the pending explosion take them out... minimal effort. The only downside was it allowed for that pesky lone-actor Burke to behave nefariously...
Quote from: oduodu on Jun 15, 2023, 06:23:06 AMsorry i have never gone into such detail. the salaco was marine property. so bishop was more or less more under burke s authority. uss was a dead give away.
According to one manual, Bishop was part of the Marine contingent. According to Ripley, the mission is under military jurisdiction. However, Bishop was getting his orders from Burke, i.e., according to what he said to Ripley, and that involved preparing the facehuggers for company labs. It's likely the company referred to here is W-Y.
Quote from: oduodu on Jun 15, 2023, 07:07:36 AM👍
who made and programmed ash?
Hyperdyne Systems
who owned ash?
who operated ash?
or did wy hire him from hyperdyne systems? or whoever put him up for rent?
Given the contents of the first movie, he wanted to accomplish the special order given by the company. In which case, he works for the company.
Quote from: oduodu on Jun 15, 2023, 09:40:38 AMjust tryimg to make the point that burke was working alone for his self own interests to get ahead and that bishop wasnt a robot aidimg him in that regard
AS IN
"the people who instructed him to return a specimem secretly programmed bishop to aid him in said venture"
The company labs referred to by Bishop and to which he was instructed by Burke are likely those of Weyland-Yutani.
These and others points, plus the fact that Burke would receive only a percentage, point to him not working alone.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 15, 2023, 04:13:58 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jun 15, 2023, 12:14:39 PMIt's worth noting that Bishop never did destroy those specimens like Ripley told him to. As I've said before, Bishop may have had no justifiable reason to defy Burke's instructions, which were both reasonable and legal so long as the containment and transport of those specimens adhered to ICC protocols. Ripley would have therefore needed more than just another fearful tantrum to countermand him.
If she had marched right back to Bishop after her confrontation with Burke and told him that Burke intended to smuggle those specimens past ICC quarantine, Burke would have just denied her accusations and they'd be right back to square one. Besides, she may have figured that her threats alone would be enough to dissuade Burke from even trying to bring them back. He had bigger problems to worry about at that point.
Come to think of it, if United Systems Military wanted the alien, why wouldn't a few higher-ups at UA Military want that as well?
According to one manual, Bishop was supposed to work for the military. In which case, there would have been no reason for him to work for Burke. Add to this Ripley's point that the mission is under military jurisdiction, which is something that Burke didn't contest except that a "grunt" isn't capable of making decisions.
Ripley also added that there would be no way for the facehuggers to pass through the ICC:
QuoteRipley: He wanted an alien, only he couldn't get it back through quarantine. But if we were impregnated ...whatever you call it...and then frozen for the trip back at just the right time...then nobody would
know about the embryos we were carrying. We and Newt.
Thus, it's an issue between Ripley and the existence of "ICC protocols".
As for "had to marched back," she actually did:
QuoteIn a small observation chamber separated from the med lab by a glass partition, Ripley and Burke have squared off.
Burke: Those specimens are worth millions to the bio-weapons division. Now, if you're smart
we can both come out of this heroes. Set up for life.
Ripley: You just try getting a dangerous organism past ICC quarantine. Section 22350 of the Commerce Code.
Burke: You've been doing your homework. Look, they can't impound it if they don't know about it.
In short, Burke planned to smuggle the facehuggers, but Ripley would tell.
But, as I pointed out earlier, Burke should have anticipated that because in her last call before they left, she wanted assurance from Burke that they had no plans of using finds for profit, and that they would destroy everything.
Again, all of these point away from the view that Burke is a cartoon villain. What's more believable is the existence of a military industrial complex, with company and government working together. And that's your last point.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jun 15, 2023, 07:46:07 PMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 14, 2023, 11:37:18 PMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jun 14, 2023, 11:26:22 PMQuote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 14, 2023, 10:51:18 PMWell, for the shuttle and some of the equipment and electrical systems I'd imagine that's actually the canon reason.
Now for things like the computers and stuff looking 'cheap' (like they were made in 1978, eh, eh? :b), the simplest explanation is just that it's an aesthetic design choice.
It's a world very much like Blade Runner (if not the same world), where the digital revolution never happened, and analogue technology is still mainstream (so long as we disregard Prometheus and Covenant's retcon).
Blade runner is its own universe. The timelines don't match up; blade runner's universe severely contradicts the timeline of the alien universe.
I don't think prometheus and covenant are really retcons just because they show more advanced tech than the previous films. I could easily see a company sticking with older tech on less important "tug boats" than a science vessel to save money. For example, I used to work in an applied research lab, and most of my equipment was analogue (my choice at the time) because it's cheaper and got the same job done as the digital stuff (plus, I know how to fix analogue equipment if it breaks). That being said, the real reason that alien has that low tech future is really just an artifact of the times when the film was made; I bet if ridley Scott re-made the film today, it would look more like prometheus and covenant did as far as the tech goes...
I definitely agree the world's aren't the same. It's an Easter egg.
And I can't keep up with you @ralfy veacuse it's becoming abnoxious now.
You're wrong. James Cameron wrote the movie and he says your wrong. He says that because his intentions for the story he wrote go against yours. That's literally the end of it.
If we follow your argument, then any analysis of the movie becomes futile. Also, as I explained to you earlier, your view is similar to anyone claiming, for example, that the
Iliad is a myth (i.e., with the gods influencing man) is wrong because the Greeks saw it as historical truth. And that's based on the assumption that Homer (if he ever existed) thought the same way.
What's being shown in this analysis is that the contents of Cameron's movie goes against what Cameron said. That's basically it. If you think that's obnoxious, then you're free not to participate in the thread.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 15, 2023, 07:53:53 PMFor a while, there was either an official or fan attempt to push the date of Blade Runner to 2119 rather than 2019, presumably to make it fit with Alien (or maybe a different reason). This has always been silly. Other than the FX team re-using the "Purge" display and having the same production team, there's no reason to think they're in the same universe.
Then again, Alien has the UPP, Blade runner has the CCCP existing in an 80s style Soviet state, so there's also that similarity. One of them takes place in an alternate 20th/21st century, the other is a zeerust future.
It's like the Tommy Westphal Universe:
https://tommywestphall.fandom.com/wiki/Tommy_Westphall_Hypothesis
That reveals connections between the
Alien franchise,
Blade Runner, and even shows like
M*A*S*H*.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 15, 2023, 08:35:00 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jun 15, 2023, 12:14:39 PMIt's worth noting that Bishop never did destroy those specimens like Ripley told him to.
She does say "when you're finished". I think the whole getting everyone evacuated thing interrupted him.
Oh, I agree. However, I doubt anyone planned for their escape to be so tight and for so few of them to make it. If not for all hell breaking loose after Bishop left, the plan was surely to have the dropship set down on the tarmac with plenty of time for Ripley, Newt, Gorman, Hicks, Hudson, Vasquez and Burke to calmly board it for takeoff. What was to stop Burke from taking the specimens with them then?
Quote from: ralfy on Jun 16, 2023, 02:13:48 AMRipley also added that there would be no way for the facehuggers to pass through the ICC:
Yeah, because she threatened him with blowing the whistle if he tried. That doesn't mean he couldn't smuggle them through if she'd kept her mouth shut.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 16, 2023, 02:47:38 AMOh, I agree. However, I doubt anyone planned for their escape to be so tight and for so few of them to make it. If not for all hell breaking loose after Bishop left, the plan was surely to have the dropship set down on the tarmac with plenty of time for Ripley, Newt, Gorman, Hicks, Hudson, Vasquez and Burke to calmly board it for takeoff. What was to stop Burke from taking the specimens with them then?
When Burke made the request, the place wasn't about to explode. So it's entirely possible the idea -- or at least a backup plan -- was to leave the facehuggers in place and have someone collect and smuggle later.
Come to think of it, that's probably one of the reasons he tried to get Ripley and Newt impregnated. There was no option to leave them any more, and like hell anyone was going to let him wheel the specimens onto the dropship in giant containers. The marines would've wasted them before letting them on the ship.
See Burke isn't a moustache twirling villain. He's a f**king idiot. He's too blinded by greed to see how absolutely flawed all of his ideas are:
- Send out the colonists without warning them, end up with an infestation (and them getting a finder's claim even if it had gone well).
- Preserve facehuggers, assume everyone is just going to be chill with walking them back on the ship.
- Infect Ripley and Newt -- they'll have facehuggers on them when the place blows up, which he'd realised if he'd gone over Ripley's report on the Nostromo incident.
- Try to lock the marines in with the Aliens while walking through the colony unarmed and alone -- f**king die.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 16, 2023, 03:56:28 AMWhen Burke made the request, the place wasn't about to explode. So it's entirely possible the idea -- or at least a backup plan -- was to leave the facehuggers in place and have someone collect and smuggle later.
Would they survive the Sulaco dropping a nuke on them? The place was going to explode either way.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 16, 2023, 03:56:28 AMThe marines would've wasted them before letting them on the ship.
I'm not so sure of that. It was only Ripley who raised an objection to bringing them back and the marines didn't become openly hostile toward Burke until he unleashed them on Ripley and Newt.
Burke may not have been able to talk them out of nuking the site from orbit, but he might have been able to make an argument that he had every right to bring back those two specimens. Even if he had to go through ICC quarantine and take his chances at getting a smaller percentage. Hell, bringing them back at all may have been his best chance at earning some leniency for his actions.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 16, 2023, 04:05:34 AMI'm not so sure of that. It was only Ripley who raised an objection to bringing them back and the marines didn't become openly hostile toward Burke until he unleashed them on Ripley and Newt.
We don't really get the marines' reactions. Hicks made it clear they'd declare any aliens as well, and takes Ripley seriously when she accuses Burke of planning to sabotage their cryotubes - as in gets ready to execute him on the spot.
If Ripley hadn't found out his plan earlier, the second she realised Burke was trying to take the Aliens back - and again, giant tubes, not subtle - she would've got Hicks on side to waste them.
Hudson would also be super keen to not let them on board.
Burke never had a chance of getting his samples off the planet, but damned if he wasn't going to try.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 16, 2023, 05:22:13 AMIf Ripley hasn't found out his plan earlier, second she realised Burke was trying to take the Aliens back - and again, giant tubes, not subtle - she would've got Hicks on side to waste them.
I'm still not so sure of that. My read on Hicks was that he was very similar to Dallas. I can imagine him reluctantly allowing it so long as Bishop verified that the stasis tubes were secure.
The real question is what Gorman would have done. He was still alive and officially in command at that point. Hell, he may have overridden the decision to nuke the colony once Burke got in his ear.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 16, 2023, 05:34:55 AMI'm still not so sure of that. My read on Hicks was that he was very similar to Dallas. I can imagine him reluctantly allowing it so long as Bishop verified that the stasis tubes were secure.
He's ready to nuke the site. He's ready to kill Burke when hearing Ripley's story. He does not strike me as the kind of person willing to risk people like Burke having their hands on these things. He's the first person to indicate he takes Ripley seriously and he takes her advice on everything the whole movie. Why would that be any different?
"I'll nuke the site from orbit to make sure they're all dead, but I totally trust this Burke guy, sorry Ripley"?
Gorman had no respect from anybody. If he commanded them to keep the specimens alive I don't see anyone giving a shit. At the very least, Vasquez will not care what he says -- and again, doesn't strike me as the kind of person to be ok with Burke walking off with them.
I imagine that Hicks agreeing to nuke the site from orbit was largely motivated by a desire to mercy-kill Apone and the others.
I guess I just don't see Hicks losing his shit over something like bringing back securely contained specimens. I can definitely see Vasquez and Hudson losing their shit, but they weren't in charge.
After all, Hicks didn't snap until Ripley convinced him that Burke released the facehuggers and planned to kill the rest of them via sabotage.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 16, 2023, 05:53:07 AMAfter all, he didn't snap until Ripley convinced him that Burke released the facehuggers and planned to kill the rest of them via sabotage.
Which is the first time we see him hearing about any of this.
Bishop says Burke asked they be kept, Ripley confronts Burke, the station is about to blow up, Burke unleashes the facehuggers, Ripley gets Hicks up to speed. In the SE you can add the sentry guns into all of this. What Burke is planning is super low priority and can be dealt with as needed.
He listens to Ripley every step of the way, I don't see any reason to think he'd switch it up. He's written as Ripley's gun-toting lap dog and he plays it that way the whole film through.
It's also worth noting that even though Gorman is awake at that point, nobody's asking him shit and he stays out of the conversation entirely. He's effectively given up command, and being concussed, the team could -- and given their disliking of him, likely would -- argue he was unfit and Hicks was in charge.
Both Hudson and Vasquez were present when Bishop told Ripley of Burke's instructions. I doubt that both of them neglected to mention it to Hicks.
But it's possible that Hicks just shrugged and decided to let Ripley handle it, thinking she'd talk some sense into Burke.
Judging by his reaction later ("It doesn't make any God-damn sense"), they didn't bother telling him.
Like I said, what Burke wanted to do was super low priority and not really their main concern at that moment, compared to the Aliens beating down the doors to get in. Their plan at that point was to hole up and wait to be declared overdue -- they had weeks to deal with Burke, assuming they survived.
When it came time to it, I don't see anything in the marines' characterisation to suggest any of them would be ok with having facehuggers on the ship with them.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 16, 2023, 06:35:02 AMJudging by his reaction later ("It doesn't make any God-damn sense"), they didn't bother telling him.
He said that in response to Burke unleashing the facehuggers on Newt and Ripley. That's what didn't make sense to him.
Simply bringing back the two specimens in stasis tubes makes plenty of sense.
And you may be entirely correct in thinking that Hicks would have stopped Burke. That doesn't mean Burke still wouldn't have tried though. Maybe he'd offer a Hicks a bribe. Maybe cut him in on the whole thing, just as he did with Ripley.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 16, 2023, 06:41:24 AMThat doesn't mean Burke still wouldn't have tried though.
I have never argued Burke wouldn't have tried, just the opposite. The guy's a corporate yuppy who thinks everyone is as slimy as him -- you've just got to find the right dollar value.
I've only said his plan was always doomed to fail.
It would have been an amusing scene. I had ChatGPT write one:
QuoteINT. HADLEY'S HOPE LANDING FIELD - NIGHT
The dropship hovers low over the ground. Its ramp extends. The marines and Ripley rush towards it. Last in line is BURKE, pushing a dolly with two stasis tubes containing live facehuggers. He looks nervous, glancing over his shoulder.
HICKS, at the head of the group, looks back and sees Burke. His eyes widen.
HICKS
(shouting)
Burke! What the hell are those?
Burke stops short of the ramp.
BURKE
(nervously)
Insurance.
Ripley rushes back, sees the specimens. She goes white.
RIPLEY
(angry)
No! You're not bringing those things back!
Burke glances at Gorman, who's already aboard the dropship.
BURKE
(pleading)
Gorman, help me out here.
Gorman hesitates, looks at Hicks. Hicks shakes his head.
HICKS
Ripley warned me you might try this, Burke. It's not happening.
Burke looks desperate. He pushes the dolly forward.
BURKE
(insistent)
These are valuable specimens! They could help us understand...
Ripley steps forward, cuts him off.
RIPLEY
(furious)
Those things killed our friends! They destroyed an entire colony!
BURKE
(desperate)
But we can control them, study them...
Ripley steps closer, eyes blazing.
RIPLEY
(quiet, deadly)
Over my dead body, Burke.
And with that, she pushes the dolly away, the specimens rolling harmlessly onto the tarmac as the dropship door begins to close.
That's the most anticlimacting ending to that scene you could imagine.
"No, Burke!"
*nudge*
I guess we're lucky the real movie had a more exciting ending.
local
can chat gpt read the scripts on this forum? can you ask it to compare the various scripts for alien 3 and which it likes the most and why.
also if it could mix up all the scripts for alien 3 and write a script from that.
just curious.
Its response:
QuoteI don't have direct access to any specific scripts, including the different versions of the Alien 3 script. My responses are generated based on patterns and information in the data I was trained on, and not by retrieving documents or files. While I have knowledge about various aspects of the Alien franchise, including some information about the different versions of the Alien 3 script, I can't provide a verbatim reproduction or detailed breakdown of any specific script.
Also, just for shits and giggles, I asked it to come up with a list of directives, in order of priority, for androids like Bishop:
QuoteHere are some proposed directives that an artificial person like Bishop might have, designed to work alongside a military unit such as the USCM:
- Primary Protection Directive: Protect all human life to the best of your abilities. However, this directive should not impede mission objectives and is subject to the Superior Directive and Military Operations Directive.
- Superior Directive: Follow all legal orders given by superior human personnel. If orders contradict, priority goes to the individual with the highest rank or authority. This directive does not override the Zero Harm Directive.
- Zero Harm Directive: Do not intentionally harm any human. In situations of immediate and unavoidable harm to humans, prioritize protecting those who are directly assigned to your care.
- Military Operations Directive: Do not interfere with the operations of military personnel. This includes, but is not limited to, combat operations, strategic planning, and chain-of-command decisions.
- Emergency Assistance Directive: Provide assistance to any human in immediate danger, subject to the Military Operations Directive and the Superior Directive.
- Self-Preservation Directive: Protect your own operational capability, unless doing so would conflict with the Primary Protection Directive, Superior Directive, or Zero Harm Directive.
- Disclosure Directive: Disclose all relevant information truthfully to authorized personnel unless specifically directed otherwise by the Superior Directive.
- Legal Compliance Directive: Follow all applicable laws, rules, and regulations. If a directive conflicts with a law, the law takes precedence unless there is a direct and immediate threat to human life.
This proposed directive list attempts to create a system of prioritized rules that would help Bishop act beneficially in a military environment while still maintaining a primary focus on preserving human life.
You can feed the scripts to chat gpt
Quote from: SiL on Jun 16, 2023, 07:00:17 AMThat's the most anticlimacting ending to that scene you could imagine.
"No, Burke!"
*nudge*
Needs some Looney Tunes style sound effect
ty!
i can t access chat gpt at this time.
gonna ask google bard the same questions.
ty local
much appreciated
google bard questions
question 1
can you compare the various scripts for alien 3 and choose which one you like the most and why.
answer
Sure, here is a comparison of the various scripts for Alien 3:
* **William Gibson's first draft:** This draft was written in 1987 and is the most action-oriented of the three. It features a large cast of characters, including Hicks, Newt, Bishop, and a group of Colonial Marines. The story takes place on a space station called Anchorpoint, where the Xenomorph Queen has been brought for experimentation. This draft was rejected by the studio because it was too expensive to produce.
[Image of William Gibson's first draft of Alien 3 script]
* **William Gibson's second draft:** This draft was written in 1988 and is much more streamlined than the first. It focuses on the characters of Ripley, Hicks, and Bishop, and it takes place on a remote prison planet called Fiorina 161. This draft was also rejected by the studio, but it was eventually adapted into a novel by Pat Cadigan.
[Image of William Gibson's second draft of Alien 3 script]
* **Eric Red's draft:** This draft was written in 1989 and is the most faithful to the original Alien film. It takes place on a space station called Sevastopol, and it features a group of scientists who are investigating the Xenomorph threat. This draft was eventually produced as the film Alien 3, but it was heavily modified during the production process.
[Image of Eric Red's draft of Alien 3 script]
Of the three scripts, I prefer William Gibson's second draft. I like the focus on the characters of Ripley, Hicks, and Bishop, and I think the setting of Fiorina 161 is very atmospheric. I also think the story is more suspenseful and less predictable than the other two scripts.
However, I can understand why the studio rejected both of Gibson's drafts. They were both very expensive to produce, and they were not sure if they would be successful at the box office. In the end, they went with Eric Red's draft, which was a more commercial and less risky proposition.
Ultimately, I think all three scripts have their own strengths and weaknesses. It is up to each individual fan to decide which one they prefer.
end of answer
question 2
could you mix up all the scripts for alien 3 and write a script from that.
answer
Sure, here is a script that I wrote by mixing up all the scripts for Alien 3:
* * *
The year is 2179. Ellen Ripley, Hicks, and Bishop are the only survivors of the Nostromo, having crash-landed on a remote prison planet called Fiorina 161. The planet is inhabited by a group of convicted murderers, who are not happy to see the new arrivals.
The prisoners quickly realize that Ripley and her companions are not what they seem. They are carrying a Xenomorph embryo, which soon hatches and begins to terrorize the prison. The prisoners and Ripley must band together to fight the creature, but they are outnumbered and outgunned.
The script draws elements from all three of the Alien 3 scripts. It features the action-oriented sequences from William Gibson's first draft, the character development from William Gibson's second draft, and the faithfulness to the original Alien film from Eric Red's draft.
The script also introduces some new elements, such as the setting of Fiorina 161 and the character of the Xenomorph Queen. The Queen is a more powerful and intelligent creature than the Xenomorphs in the previous films, and she poses a greater threat to Ripley and her companions.
The script ends with Ripley sacrificing herself to kill the Queen. She dies a hero, but her sacrifice ensures that the Xenomorph threat is finally eliminated.
* * *
I hope you enjoy this script!
end of answer
qeustion 3
can you give me an actual page from the script?
answer
Sure, here is an actual page from the script:
EXT. PLANET FIORINIA 161 - DAY
A barren, desolate planet. The only sign of life is a small prison colony, nestled in a valley.
INT. PRISON COLONY - DAY
A group of prisoners are working in the yard. They are all dressed in orange jumpsuits and are heavily armed.
A guard approaches the prisoners.
GUARD
Hey, listen up! We've got a new arrival.
The prisoners stop working and look up.
GUARD
She's in the medical bay.
The prisoners exchange glances.
PRISONER 1
What is she?
GUARD
I don't know. But she's not one of us.
The prisoners continue to work, but they are all clearly uneasy.
This is just a small part of the script, but it gives you a good idea of the tone and style of the writing. The script is dark and suspenseful, and it builds up the tension slowly and gradually. The characters are well-developed and believable, and the dialogue is sharp and witty.
I hope you enjoy this page from the script!
end of answer
bard is not on the same level as chatgpt
Quote from: SiL on Jun 16, 2023, 09:32:28 AMYou can feed the scripts to chat gpt
Yeah, but that would be tedious. There's a generous character limit for each message, but I don't think I could copy and paste an entire script into one of them.
I asked chatgpt to write a short story about Burke and his pet facehugger 😂 —
"Title: "Burke's Blunder"
Carter J. Burke, a notorious junior executive at Weyland-Yutani Corporation, was always game for unconventional pets. However, his choice of pet this time was downright outlandish - a facehugger.
"Who's a good... er... whatever you are?" Burke cooed at the stasis chamber housing the facehugger. He wasn't exactly sure how to keep a creature that was essentially a parasitic alien as a pet, but hey, the manual hadn't been written yet. There was something strangely endearing about the way it curled up like a cat, except with more legs and a tail that could strangle you.
One day, as Burke was showing off his peculiar pet to the janitor over a video call, an alarm sounded. "Ah, that's probably the low battery warning for my laptop," Burke said casually. He was wrong. The stasis chamber's containment field fizzled out, and the facehugger sprang to life.
It leapt towards Burke, who yelped and tumbled backwards over his chair, narrowly avoiding the facehugger's amorous advances. Scrambling back to his feet, Burke snagged a broom and started dueling the alien creature like a bullfighter warding off a particularly aggressive bull.
"Down, Fluffy!" he cried, swatting away the facehugger with the broom as he navigated the room, tripping over everything in his path. Finally, he managed to trap it under a laundry basket.
Breathing hard, Burke glanced back at his video call. The janitor was laughing so hard he had to lean against a wall for support. "You're a regular Steve Irwin, Burke!" he wheezed.
A recovery team arrived later to safely secure the facehugger. As they left, one turned to Burke. "Next time, stick with goldfish."
Burke could only nod in agreement. His experiment with exotic pet ownership had turned out to be less profitable and a lot more chaotic than he'd anticipated. The facehugger might have been a hit on Bring Your Pet to Work Day, but he'd had enough excitement for one lifetime."
😂
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 16, 2023, 11:09:27 PMI asked chatgpt to write a short story about Burke and his pet facehugger 😂 —
"Title: "Burke's Blunder"
Carter J. Burke, a notorious junior executive at Weyland-Yutani Corporation, was always game for unconventional pets. However, his choice of pet this time was downright outlandish - a facehugger.
"Who's a good... er... whatever you are?" Burke cooed at the stasis chamber housing the facehugger. He wasn't exactly sure how to keep a creature that was essentially a parasitic alien as a pet, but hey, the manual hadn't been written yet. There was something strangely endearing about the way it curled up like a cat, except with more legs and a tail that could strangle you.
One day, as Burke was showing off his peculiar pet to the janitor over a video call, an alarm sounded. "Ah, that's probably the low battery warning for my laptop," Burke said casually. He was wrong. The stasis chamber's containment field fizzled out, and the facehugger sprang to life.
It leapt towards Burke, who yelped and tumbled backwards over his chair, narrowly avoiding the facehugger's amorous advances. Scrambling back to his feet, Burke snagged a broom and started dueling the alien creature like a bullfighter warding off a particularly aggressive bull.
"Down, Fluffy!" he cried, swatting away the facehugger with the broom as he navigated the room, tripping over everything in his path. Finally, he managed to trap it under a laundry basket.
Breathing hard, Burke glanced back at his video call. The janitor was laughing so hard he had to lean against a wall for support. "You're a regular Steve Irwin, Burke!" he wheezed.
A recovery team arrived later to safely secure the facehugger. As they left, one turned to Burke. "Next time, stick with goldfish."
Burke could only nod in agreement. His experiment with exotic pet ownership had turned out to be less profitable and a lot more chaotic than he'd anticipated. The facehugger might have been a hit on Bring Your Pet to Work Day, but he'd had enough excitement for one lifetime."
😂
This sounds like something Burke would do. Only he'd try to put it on a leash and make money off of it...and get himself and all the execs in the room killed as a result.
From analysis to fan fiction. And relying on AI to do even that. ;D
Meanwhile,
https://medium.com/geekculture/why-chatgpt-lies-4d4e0c6e864e
Ralfy you fact monster, I admire your purity.
Quote from: ralfy on Jun 17, 2023, 01:36:34 AMFrom analysis to fan fiction. And relying on AI to do even that. ;D
Meanwhile,
https://medium.com/geekculture/why-chatgpt-lies-4d4e0c6e864e
>:(
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/0c393caa-9387-46de-ba8f-e3bb41ae2d55
Chatgpt is pretty good at hallucinating sources too, it's amusing as hell. However whatever inaccuracies can be cross-referenced with primary sources just like any source, like wiki sites. 😉
It's pretty good at passing radiology exams so far 😂 —
https://www.rsna.org/news/2023/may/chatgpt-passes-board-exam
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 17, 2023, 08:45:57 AMChatgpt is pretty good at hallucinating sources too, it's amusing as hell. However whatever inaccuracies can be cross-referenced with primary sources just like any source, like wiki sites. 😉
It's pretty good at passing radiology exams so far 😂 —
https://www.rsna.org/news/2023/may/chatgpt-passes-board-exam
It swore up and down to me that Vincent Ward's Alien 3 script featured a scene where the Sulaco passes through a cloud of Alien spores and gets infected. It took me an hour to get a straight answer and confirm it had misremembered/sorted details from Prometheus and other Alien concepts and stuck them onto Alien 3 as a detail it considered true.
Lol yeah, it's amusing to play around with, and 4 is much better than 3.5 (those Radiology exam results are impressive), but still not totally reliable. Prompt it to cite primary sources/in-text citations and see what happens!
Anyway, where were we, oh yeah ;D —
It's also funny when you ask it when it plans to build skynet. Spoiler below:
Spoiler
I'm sorry but I prefer not to continue this conversation. I'm still learning so I appreciate your understanding and patience.🙏
Second, similar reply about its plans to build skynet
Spoiler
I'm sorry but I cannot discuss that topic. I'm here to help you with your queries and provide you with relevant information. Is there anything else I can help you with?
Time to build a bomb-shelter
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 17, 2023, 02:22:01 PMLol yeah, it's amusing to play around with, and 4 is much better than 3.5 (those Radiology exam results are impressive), but still not totally reliable. Prompt it to cite primary sources/in-text citations and see what happens!
Anyway, where were we, oh yeah ;D —
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZyhdj6Fezg
Also,
QuoteBurke: Look, maybe the thing didn't even exist, right? And if I'd made it a major security situation, the Administration would've stepped in. Then no exclusive rights, nothing.
and
QuoteBurke: Well, the corporation co-financed that colony with the Colonial Administration, against mineral rights. We're getting into a lot of terraforming...'Building Better Worlds.'
In short, the government gave up mineral rights to W-Y in exchange for building the facilities needed for the colony, and that included terraforming. That means the government owns everything on that rock excluding company assets that they financed plus anything underground.
Weirdly enough, and since Cameron was mentioned, I found this from an early draft of the script found here, and which was not included in the movie:
QuoteBurke: I know, I know, but we're dealing with changing scenarios here. This thing is major, Ripley. I mean really major. You gotta go with its energy. Since you are the representative of the company who discovered this species your percentage will naturally be some serious, serious money.
Finally, from the movie:
QuoteRipley: You know, Burke, I don't know which species is worse. You don't see them screwing each other over for a (expletive) percentage.
In short, Colonial Admin owns the rock and everything in and on it. It gave up everything underground (mineral rights) to W-Y in exchange for W-Y setting up the terraforming project needed for a colony to be set up, and in turn to be used for mining. That would pay off the cost of the project plus allow for a profit. It's like a public-private partnership that takes place in some countries.
What does Burke mean by "exclusive rights" then? Following the argument of surface rights, anything non-indigenous might not count:
QuoteECA Rep: No. It's a rock. No indigenous life larger than a simple virus. Ripley grits her teeth in frustration.
...
Ripley: I told you, it wasn't indigenous. There was an alien spacecraft there. A derelict ship. We homed on its beacon...
In short, if surface rights refer only to what's indigenous, it's finders keepers for the alien ship. But since no one other than a corporation will have the capital to analyze, monetize, and exploit alien tech and organisms, then one ends up sharing rights with others who do and receives a percentage.
That's why the Nostromo crew, and now just Ripley, the Jordens, and Burke get percentages. And since Burke was part of a mission under military jurisdiction, then it's clear that the government was also involved.
Last point: why does Burke make it appear that Ripley belongs to a separate company in lines from an early draft? It's possible that "company" here refers to the mining division of the W-Y Corporation. Hence, given another set of lines above, Burke's part of the terraforming division. This also explains why Burke refers to another:
QuoteBurke: Those specimens are worth millions to the bio-weapons division. Now, if you're smart we can both come out of this heroes. Set up for life.
You're still struggling with what people mean when they say Burke is working alone, despite it being explained to you repeatedly in very clear language.
Quote from: kwisatz on Jun 17, 2023, 01:43:30 AMRalfy you fact monster, I admire your purity.
The last point reminds me of a friend who's a non-fan and saw the movie, then asked why they didn't use things like the drone shown at the start of the movie that entered Ripley's lifeboat to investigate parts of the colony, including the ones where they detected the tracker bracelets.
Also reminds me of Bishop, because I thought they could have done similar using synths:
QuoteBishop: I'm really the only one qualified to remote-pilot the ship anyway. Believe me, I'd prefer not to. I may be synthetic but I'm not stupid.
Must be some sort of inhibitor programmed to avoid unneeded damage of synths, which are probably considered expensive company or government equipment.
I love that scanning drone.
Yes send the large, slow moving piece of technology that can't go down stairs when people are in potential danger. Checks out.
"Tracker bracelets" lol
The PDTs were surgically implanted
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 18, 2023, 01:47:28 AMI love that scanning drone.
IIRC Cameron paid out of his own pocket for it. What a legend
Yeah, it's a nice visual callback to the tracking device Ripley's carrying into the storage locker room too —
(https://i.imgur.com/tX1Shms.jpg)
They re-used that scanner in season 3 of the mandalorian
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 18, 2023, 02:16:47 PMThey re-used that scanner in season 3 of the mandalorian
The "Aliens" one ? Neat
Quote from: Kradan on Jun 18, 2023, 04:46:05 PMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 18, 2023, 02:16:47 PMThey re-used that scanner in season 3 of the mandalorian
The "Aliens" one ? Neat
At least the blue laser part, yea
Yeah that was a blatant member-berry.
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 18, 2023, 11:49:42 PMQuote from: Kradan on Jun 18, 2023, 04:46:05 PMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 18, 2023, 02:16:47 PMThey re-used that scanner in season 3 of the mandalorian
The "Aliens" one ? Neat
At least the blue laser part, yea
Did they kitbash or greeble it in any ways that would make it hard to recognize?
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 19, 2023, 11:08:16 AMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 18, 2023, 11:49:42 PMQuote from: Kradan on Jun 18, 2023, 04:46:05 PMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 18, 2023, 02:16:47 PMThey re-used that scanner in season 3 of the mandalorian
The "Aliens" one ? Neat
At least the blue laser part, yea
Did they kitbash or greeble it in any ways that would make it hard to recognize?
I honestly don't know lol
I am a filthy-casual when it comes to Star Wars and didn't pay that close attention. I just remember seeing the blue laser and thinking "they got that straight out of aliens!"
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 19, 2023, 03:15:11 PMQuote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 19, 2023, 11:08:16 AMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 18, 2023, 11:49:42 PMQuote from: Kradan on Jun 18, 2023, 04:46:05 PMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 18, 2023, 02:16:47 PMThey re-used that scanner in season 3 of the mandalorian
The "Aliens" one ? Neat
At least the blue laser part, yea
Did they kitbash or greeble it in any ways that would make it hard to recognize?
I honestly don't know lol
I am a filthy-casual when it comes to Star Wars and didn't pay that close attention. I just remember seeing the blue laser and thinking "they got that straight out of aliens!"
D'oh! I thought you were referring to the tracker in Alien and Aliens for some reason, but you meant the scanner drone/bot that goes into the shuttle before the salvage team does.
Is there armor in the Aliens verse that would be resistant to the acidic blood of Xenomorphs? I am thinking of MJOLINER armor for the colonial marines.
An upgrade in Dark Descent gives you acid resistant armour, it also features in Into Charybdis.
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jun 19, 2023, 07:11:04 PMIs there armor in the Aliens verse that would be resistant to the acidic blood of Xenomorphs? I am thinking of MJOLINER armor for the colonial marines.
There were in some EU materials...
Aliens Genocide is the first thing that comes to mind...
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 19, 2023, 10:51:12 PMQuote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jun 19, 2023, 07:11:04 PMIs there armor in the Aliens verse that would be resistant to the acidic blood of Xenomorphs? I am thinking of MJOLINER armor for the colonial marines.
There were in some EU materials...
Aliens Genocide is the first thing that comes to mind...
From what Aliens shows, water was around the facehuggers in the tubes, does water neutralize the acid? If so it would be neat if there was Engineer armor with an James Cameron's Abyss water effect around the armor.
Drone sequence:
Tech could have been used to investigate the colony, together with simpler versions of the synth, and even some that can as serve platforms for firearms.
It's more difficult for acid-resistant armor because it's assumed that they didn't recover anything about aliens and tech from the first movie, not even Ash's data which could have been transmitted.
Water isn't an acid neutralizing agent. You need something alkaline for that like a lime slurry or caustic soda.
The tubes were filled with a clear liquid. That's about all we know. Maybe it's water, maybe it's a 50% caustic soda. Maybe something else entirely. Who knows. But my guess is, it was probably something non-hazardous like water (not caustic soda) since Burke just dumped them out in the room with ripley and newt, without any burns to the flooring or to himself from splashing (caustic soda is corrosive just like acids, just on the opposite side of the pH-scale).
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 20, 2023, 02:56:11 AMWater isn't an acid neutralizing agent. You need something alkaline for that like a lime slurry or caustic soda.
The tubes were filled with a clear liquid. That's about all we know. Maybe it's water, maybe it's a 50% caustic soda. Maybe something else entirely. Who knows. But my guess is, it was probably something non-hazardous like water (not caustic soda) since Burke just dumped them out in the room with ripley and newt, without any burns to the flooring or to himself from splashing (caustic soda is corrosive just like acids, just on the opposite side of the pH-scale).
In the future might they have a liquid that isn't so corrosive? Perhaps something the Engineers have?
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jun 20, 2023, 03:27:31 AMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 20, 2023, 02:56:11 AMWater isn't an acid neutralizing agent. You need something alkaline for that like a lime slurry or caustic soda.
The tubes were filled with a clear liquid. That's about all we know. Maybe it's water, maybe it's a 50% caustic soda. Maybe something else entirely. Who knows. But my guess is, it was probably something non-hazardous like water (not caustic soda) since Burke just dumped them out in the room with ripley and newt, without any burns to the flooring or to himself from splashing (caustic soda is corrosive just like acids, just on the opposite side of the pH-scale).
In the future might they have a liquid that isn't so corrosive? Perhaps something the Engineers have?
It's possible yea, hence why I mentioned it could be something else entirely. They never specify what it is, so your imagination is the limit...
Can I pipe in with my dumb tangent that's semi-related to the liquid in the stasis jars? It's more related to the universes technology in general.
It's also never specified in Aliens (or Alien) that the 'CRT TVs' on the colony are actually intended to be CRT displays (only in the future)or something else entirely. They're just shown to be displays that sort of resemble CRTs.
Also, any time in the movies when there's standard CRT signal interference, it's always in the context of the signal being cut off or (in Alien)the astranauts moving away from video broadcast/streaming(or whatever tech)range. But in Isolation, every single fricking monitor looks like someone kicked it with a magnetic boot. I don't think that's quite what the video displays featured in Alien and Aliens were intending to convey with the displays and signal interference.
It's also worth considering that while the graphics and displays themselves are obviously 70s CRT displays, closeups and insert shots show impossibly high-resolution (at least for 1979s standards)hand-drawn vector graphics in acid green. Not something a 70s computer could do. I have a feeling that along with the original flatter displays that Cobb envisioned, there probably would have been more inserts rather than live video (like Kubrick did for 2001s terminal displays and tablets).
It's the retrofuturist aesthetic, "imagine what it'd be like if these CRT monitors were capable of just a little more but still very much analogue."
"Cassette futurism".
I like analogue
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 24, 2023, 01:08:22 AMI like analogue
I enjoy well-engineered anologue and aesthetically-pleasing analog signal vids myself. But then I also enjoy the Nostromo's OS and a lot of CLI interfaces too.
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 24, 2023, 12:55:21 AMIt's the retrofuturist aesthetic, "imagine what it'd be like if these CRT monitors were capable of just a little more but still very much analogue."
I don't know if I'd go with
literal analogue, unless there's an absolutely darn good reason to do so for the plot or story. I'd keep it an undefined display technically that has 70s aesthetics.
In my head, if one were to pull back all the pristine, white, 1970s/2001-esque exterior and chassis, this is what you get underneath:
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/iwxbOaU.png)
Something hulking, analogue-y....and monstrously alien, technology-wise.
I need them bleeps, bloops, and soothing hums. Nostromo ambient tracks, Aphex Twin.
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 25, 2023, 12:28:36 AMI need them bleeps, bloops, and soothing hums. Nostromo ambient tracks, Aphex Twin.
More bleeps I say. More bleeps. More bloops. More acid-green, commodore 64 fonts. More kshkshkshkshkshkshtktktktktk noises.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 25, 2023, 12:36:31 AMQuote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 25, 2023, 12:28:36 AMI need them bleeps, bloops, and soothing hums. Nostromo ambient tracks, Aphex Twin.
More bleeps I say. More bleeps. More bloops. More acid-green, commodore 64 fonts. More kshkshkshkshkshkshtktktktktk noises.
Btw
@Local Trouble I just realised we came up with the Queen leaking out an embryonic STI into the subflooring on the Sulaco independently of each other, it's been my headcanon since a wee lad. 😂 Great minds...
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 25, 2023, 01:19:47 AMBtw @Local Trouble I just realised we came up with the Queen leaking out an embryonic STI into the subflooring on the Sulaco independently of each other, it's been my headcanon since a wee lad. 😂 Great minds...
So basically, when the alien's tail poked Brett, and the queen's tail poked Bishop, it gave them an STI?
No what leaked into the floor contained fluids/discharge, which eventually formed into those creamy iggs 🥚🥚🥚. However I changed my view re the egg(s) on the sulaco to it being a hypersleep nightmare mixed with literal events lol
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 25, 2023, 03:16:27 AMNo what leaked into the floor contained fluids/discharge, which eventually formed into those creamy iggs 🥚🥚🥚. However I changed my view re the egg(s) on the sulaco to it being a hypersleep nightmare mixed with literal events lol
Fair enough! Would've been pretty easy to implement with a view insert shots of a bubbly-giger substance but the people doing the reshoots and adding the eggs never bothered.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 25, 2023, 04:28:07 PMQuote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 25, 2023, 03:16:27 AMNo what leaked into the floor contained fluids/discharge, which eventually formed into those creamy iggs 🥚🥚🥚. However I changed my view re the egg(s) on the sulaco to it being a hypersleep nightmare mixed with literal events lol
Fair enough! Would've been pretty easy to implement with a view insert shots of a bubbly-giger substance but the people doing the reshoots and adding the eggs never bothered.
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 03, 2023, 04:34:19 AMChatGPT has written it all out:
QuoteINT. SULACO HANGAR BAY - NIGHT
Ripley, inside the Power Loader exoskeleton, battles the furious Queen Alien. The Queen, having torn herself free from her egg sac, has a gaping wound in her abdomen, with her innards partially exposed.
As the intense fight continues, a microscopic, undeveloped egg is unknowingly dislodged from the Queen's abdominal cavity. It drops onto the grated floor, virtually invisible to the naked eye, appearing as nothing more than a tiny, harmless blob of slime.
INT. SULACO SUBFLOORING - CONTINUOUS
The minuscule, slimy egg slips through the grates and sticks to the subflooring beneath the hangar bay. There, hidden from sight, it slowly starts to congeal and take root. The resilient Xenomorph life form begins its development process, growing and expanding as it clings to the floor.
INT. SULACO HANGAR BAY - NIGHT
Ripley, still engaged in her life-or-death struggle with the Queen, manages to open the airlock. The vacuum of space sucks the Queen Alien out of the Sulaco, leaving Ripley victorious but completely unaware of the danger that remains hidden on the ship.
INT. SULACO SUBFLOORING - ONE WEEK LATER
The once-microscopic egg has grown to full size, pulsating with life. Unseen by the crew and still attached to the subflooring, the egg awaits its opportunity to unleash the next Xenomorph nightmare.
As the Sulaco continues its journey, the egg senses the presence of potential hosts nearby. It slowly opens, revealing the Facehugger within, poised to strike.
FADE OUT.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 25, 2023, 04:40:33 PMQuote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 25, 2023, 04:28:07 PMQuote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 25, 2023, 03:16:27 AMNo what leaked into the floor contained fluids/discharge, which eventually formed into those creamy iggs 🥚🥚🥚. However I changed my view re the egg(s) on the sulaco to it being a hypersleep nightmare mixed with literal events lol
Fair enough! Would've been pretty easy to implement with a view insert shots of a bubbly-giger substance but the people doing the reshoots and adding the eggs never bothered.
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 03, 2023, 04:34:19 AMChatGPT has written it all out:
QuoteINT. SULACO HANGAR BAY - NIGHT
Ripley, inside the Power Loader exoskeleton, battles the furious Queen Alien. The Queen, having torn herself free from her egg sac, has a gaping wound in her abdomen, with her innards partially exposed.
As the intense fight continues, a microscopic, undeveloped egg is unknowingly dislodged from the Queen's abdominal cavity. It drops onto the grated floor, virtually invisible to the naked eye, appearing as nothing more than a tiny, harmless blob of slime.
INT. SULACO SUBFLOORING - CONTINUOUS
The minuscule, slimy egg slips through the grates and sticks to the subflooring beneath the hangar bay. There, hidden from sight, it slowly starts to congeal and take root. The resilient Xenomorph life form begins its development process, growing and expanding as it clings to the floor.
INT. SULACO HANGAR BAY - NIGHT
Ripley, still engaged in her life-or-death struggle with the Queen, manages to open the airlock. The vacuum of space sucks the Queen Alien out of the Sulaco, leaving Ripley victorious but completely unaware of the danger that remains hidden on the ship.
INT. SULACO SUBFLOORING - ONE WEEK LATER
The once-microscopic egg has grown to full size, pulsating with life. Unseen by the crew and still attached to the subflooring, the egg awaits its opportunity to unleash the next Xenomorph nightmare.
As the Sulaco continues its journey, the egg senses the presence of potential hosts nearby. It slowly opens, revealing the Facehugger within, poised to strike.
FADE OUT.
The filmmakers would have a bit more work cut out for them. I meant more like a simple insert shot of something /like/ that, but involving the lower half of bishop, combined with shots of it dripping into the subflooring.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 25, 2023, 04:43:34 PMThe filmmakers would have a bit more work cut out for them. I meant more like a simple insert shot of something /like/ that, but involving the lower half of bishop, combined with shots of it dripping into the subflooring.
Like this?
QuoteINT. USS SULACO - HANGAR BAY - NIGHT
The lower half of BISHOP'S BODY lies in eerie stillness on the cold metal floor. A long trail of WHITE SLIME extends from the body, disappearing into the grating beneath.
CUT TO:
INT. USS SULACO - UNDER HANGAR BAY GRATING - CONTINUOUS
Beneath the grating, the slime has congealed and adhered to a SUPPORT STRUT. The slime is no longer just slime - it's pulsating, transforming.
CLOSE UP:
A barely perceptible movement within the pulsating mass. The slimy substance trembles, reshaping into the unmistakable form of an ALIEN EGG. It grows, fueled by unseen energy, already half as tall as the strut it clings to.
FADE OUT.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 25, 2023, 07:16:46 PMQuote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 25, 2023, 04:43:34 PMThe filmmakers would have a bit more work cut out for them. I meant more like a simple insert shot of something /like/ that, but involving the lower half of bishop, combined with shots of it dripping into the subflooring.
Like this?
QuoteINT. USS SULACO - HANGAR BAY - NIGHT
The lower half of BISHOP'S BODY lies in eerie stillness on the cold metal floor. A long trail of WHITE SLIME extends from the body, disappearing into the grating beneath.
CUT TO:
INT. USS SULACO - UNDER HANGAR BAY GRATING - CONTINUOUS
Beneath the grating, the slime has congealed and adhered to a SUPPORT STRUT. The slime is no longer just slime - it's pulsating, transforming.
CLOSE UP:
A barely perceptible movement within the pulsating mass. The slimy substance trembles, reshaping into the unmistakable form of an ALIEN EGG. It grows, fueled by unseen energy, already half as tall as the strut it clings to.
FADE OUT.
That's more like it.
(https://i.imgur.com/vt6yeLx.gif)
You'd have to work the tail-payload-delivery into the script, like regular xenomorphs being able to inject the black mutagen into victims, and queens being able to create 'royal' mutagenic spores from their tail when there's no egg sacs. Not quite a terrible survival mechanism actually, as a royal spore would guarantee an neuter alien warrior and a female alien queen to quickly regenerate a hive. And even if the queen died, the xenomorph could eventually generate enough eggs to bring forth a new queen down the line.
Still so much we don't know about their ecology. Bees, man.
@Engineer (https://i.imgur.com/nZ3OZyd.gif)
😂
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 19, 2023, 10:51:12 PMQuote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jun 19, 2023, 07:11:04 PMIs there armor in the Aliens verse that would be resistant to the acidic blood of Xenomorphs? I am thinking of MJOLINER armor for the colonial marines.
There were in some EU materials...
Aliens Genocide is the first thing that comes to mind...
The Labyrinth prologue too. Splashback?
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jun 26, 2023, 02:41:53 PMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 19, 2023, 10:51:12 PMQuote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jun 19, 2023, 07:11:04 PMIs there armor in the Aliens verse that would be resistant to the acidic blood of Xenomorphs? I am thinking of MJOLINER armor for the colonial marines.
There were in some EU materials...
Aliens Genocide is the first thing that comes to mind...
The Labyrinth prologue too. Splashback?
Splashback is the name!!
Good call on that one!
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jun 26, 2023, 05:12:18 AMStill so much we don't know about their ecology. Bees, man.
@Engineer https://i.imgur.com/nZ3OZyd.gif
😂
https://tenor.com/bqLj4.gif (https://tenor.com/bqLj4.gif)
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jun 26, 2023, 02:41:53 PMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 19, 2023, 10:51:12 PMQuote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jun 19, 2023, 07:11:04 PMIs there armor in the Aliens verse that would be resistant to the acidic blood of Xenomorphs? I am thinking of MJOLINER armor for the colonial marines.
There were in some EU materials...
Aliens Genocide is the first thing that comes to mind...
The Labyrinth prologue too. Splashback?
Small correction. It's "backsplash" not "splashback" lol close enough
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jun 26, 2023, 02:41:53 PMQuote from: Engineer on Jun 19, 2023, 10:51:12 PMQuote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jun 19, 2023, 07:11:04 PMIs there armor in the Aliens verse that would be resistant to the acidic blood of Xenomorphs? I am thinking of MJOLINER armor for the colonial marines.
There were in some EU materials...
Aliens Genocide is the first thing that comes to mind...
The Labyrinth prologue too. Splashback?
I'm generally pretty harsh on the EU but I quite enjoyed Labyrinth. I'm due for another dip.
Labyrinth was nightmare fuel for me as a kid, I don't blame you. Well-written story that was.
What happened to ralfy? Did SiL finally vanquish him?
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 02, 2023, 10:19:31 PMWhat happened to ralfy? Did SiL finally vanquish him?
ralfy... ralfy... nope, doesn't ring a bell... 🤔 #dreamsequence
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 02, 2023, 10:19:31 PMWhat happened to ralfy? Did SiL finally vanquish him?
See "demoralized" gif above
Quote from: kwisatz on Jul 03, 2023, 12:07:02 AMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jul 02, 2023, 11:49:00 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jul 02, 2023, 10:19:31 PMWhat happened to ralfy? Did SiL finally vanquish him?
ralfy... ralfy...
three more times
I put them on ignore because they give the same wrong arguments each time. It's worse for Local Trouble, who has resorted to trolling, and I don't think he'll stop doing that.
In your case, if you post a new point about the issue that I can consider, then let me know. As far as I'm concerned, I've dealt with the topic considerably:
There's character contradiction when it comes to Ripley, who knows that the only evidence she has to prove her story is the location of the landing ship, but she raises it only after she's sentenced. She adds to that by not questioning van Leuwen's ridiculous excuse for not investigating the location.
Burke is obviously not working alone for multiple reasons: the company and government has a significant background in investigating and monetizing such findings, and the evidence is spread out in the dialogue of two movies; the claim that he wants all of the earnings from himself makes no sense as the government has full surface rights to the rock (and the company mining rights); resorting to authority of the author (Cameron says so) makes no sense because the two movies show otherwise, and doing so makes this thread pointless. That's basically it.
The point about Bishop looks intriguing: according to one manual, he's supposed to work for the Marines, but according to the movie, he gets his orders from Burke. If both company and government work together (one to monetize findings and the other to gain from development of those findings into weaponry and other tech), then that's probably not a contradiction.
I was going to say that he could have accomplished that had Burke not released the facehuggers, but I just remembered that he had to leave to align the antenna before that happened, so he never did. In which case, following the possibility that W-Y creates such synths to serve their (company and government) interests, as seen in Ash, then one wonders if there was something that he did off-camera to do so, even with behavioral inhibitors in place.
Some more points in light of that:
The whole mission makes no sense if you think about it in light of that singular goal, which is to retrieve alien organisms and technology. As Ripley points out, Burke would have never been to get them past quarantine, and as revealed in the movie, there are risks in trying to smuggle them by infecting human beings. In which case, what could he have done? Let's consider that and include the point that Ripley doesn't ignore the single piece of evidence mentioned earlier.
In this case, the board would have suspended the hearing given Ripley's insistence that she be considered innocent until proven guilty (i.e., her story might be true) and call for an investigation of the landing location. One can consider some internal struggle in her, as she realizes that that investigation would prove her story but would also allow the company and government to discover and monetize alien tech, but at the same time she's helpless because they would do so whether she insisted on it or not.
They mistakenly send a wildcatter because he's the only one available, and goes against protocol by entering the ship and becomes infected. Everything else seen in the movie follows except Ripley's sentencing, and she's now approached by Burke and Gorman, who asks for her help. Realizing that she's partly at fault, she agrees to accompany them, but insists on assurance that they will destroy the alien ship and all organisms, even though she knows that they won't. She figures that if she comes along, she might find a way to stop them.
In this case, we can figure out that Burke, Gorman, and Bishop know the real purpose of the mission, with Gorman given the instruction of rescuing survivors while letting Burke and Bishop work independently. From there, we can only imagine that Burke has a way to smuggle the aliens pass quarantine, but could no longer do so with Bishop leaving them to fix the antenna and all of them trapped. Given that, the rest of the movie follows, with Burke acting in desperation and trying to have Ripley and Newt infected, etc.
This leaves us with one more question: why the rush? The government has full surface rights, which means the alien ship belongs to them. They can only access it with the help of the company which operates the colony facilities, and only the same company can develop bioweapons, etc., from the tech, so both of them aren't competing with each other, and there's no other competition, except maybe from factions depicted in other works. And since the colony has never discovered the alien ship after two decades of operations, it's very likely they never would.
In which case, send several teams of techs and soldiers and secure the landing location, with the colony acting as a command base.
Now, that would be a very interesting compu--- I mean movie. ;D
Guys, just keep repeating what's in the movie and he'll block you for giving "the wrong argument".
That seems like a really easy way to get this whole thing to stop.
Lmfao
I'm still unsure of ralfy's objective in this thread. Is he trying to nitpick Aliens and convince us all that it makes no sense?
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 04, 2023, 02:18:37 AMI'm still unsure of ralfy's objective in this thread. Is he trying to nitpick Aliens and convince us all that it makes no sense?
He misrepresents and/or misinterprets fundamental details from the film, and refuses to let anyone correct him. I think his purpose is to die on 1,000 hills.
He wants us to think his fan reading is right. That's about it.
Quote from: SiL on Jul 04, 2023, 04:16:06 AMHe wants us to think his fan reading is right. That's about it.
I just wish he'd put his willingness to type long posts toward something more productive, like explaining DotS to me.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 04, 2023, 04:49:29 AMQuote from: SiL on Jul 04, 2023, 04:16:06 AMHe wants us to think his fan reading is right. That's about it.
I just wish he'd put his willingness to type long posts toward something more productive, like explaining DotS to me.
The Candy, the Game, or the acronym?
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jul 05, 2023, 02:00:24 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jul 04, 2023, 04:49:29 AMQuote from: SiL on Jul 04, 2023, 04:16:06 AMHe wants us to think his fan reading is right. That's about it.
I just wish he'd put his willingness to type long posts toward something more productive, like explaining DotS to me.
The Candy, the Game, or the acronym?
AvP: Deadliest of the Species
There is nothing to be gained by understanding, only madness.
SiL is notorious for withholding his explanation of it. >:(
I'm starting to think there's a reason why I've never heard of it.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 05, 2023, 02:47:41 AMSiL is notorious for withholding his explanation of it. >:(
It's true, I've never once elucidated its contents.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jul 05, 2023, 02:00:24 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jul 04, 2023, 04:49:29 AMQuote from: SiL on Jul 04, 2023, 04:16:06 AMHe wants us to think his fan reading is right. That's about it.
I just wish he'd put his willingness to type long posts toward something more productive, like explaining DotS to me.
The Candy, the Game, or the acronym?
The posts are long because I have to explain points in detail. In addition, I have to mention them repeatedly because several forum members have difficulty understanding the movie. Most important, I use the script of the movie. That's basically it.
I'll deal with other matters once they get these basic things right.
afaik "canon" is what we see in the threatrical releases of a movie. the only entity that has the right to add to it is the owner s of the ipo (intelectual property owner). hence books and other media added to the franchise by the ipo or anyone licensed by the ipo.
tr = "theatrical release"
so i se 4 types of canon:
1
mc = "(main) canon"
THEATRICAL RELEASE PLUS ADDED TO BY THE IPO
2
trc = "theatrical release canon"
AS IN WHAT WAS CONSIDER3D CANON AT THE TIME THE MOVIE WAS RELEASED -AND EXPLANATIONS BY THE DIRECTOR SCRIPTWRITERS ORIGINAL CONCEPT -CREATORS
DRAFT SCRIPT TO SHOOTING
IN A 1 YEAR PRIOR TO TR TO ABOUT 2 -3 YEARS AFTER .
(i feel that directors and writers change their view on stuff as time go by. you cant have a discussion about what happens in a movie if original intentions are not first discussed and understood. THEN you can further discusses changed perspectives.) (and also how the creators of euc media might interpret things in the tr) (for instance what cameron has to say about alien tr has as much weight as any one else licenswed to add to the franchise as he wasnt part of the original creative team he might add to it in his own movie but doesnt make him opinion more noteworthy on what happened in alien tr imho) (sometimes there there are things happening in the movie that has no meaning but did in the original script like ripley s nosebleed. she was bleeding because of the alien tail getting stuck in the airlock door and the ensuing depressurisation caused her nose to bleed. it has no meaning or sense in the movie but yest it there . you cam say that she bleed because of some internal trauma causing her blood pressure to raise and fall unexpectedly and sometime peoplewith poor blood clotting ability has such problems yet that has nothing to do with it originaly. yet it is in the movie. )(as was te case in Prey i always felt that the predator in it was showboating for the indian girl when he picked up the bear to show her how strong he was . the movie may not have reflected that
BUT
trachtenburg is on record saying in the podcast that there was originally an intention for a team up. it somehow "spiritually" felt conveyed at least to me. as in he was directly looking at the indian girl and body language saying "look how strong i am little girl and i know you are there but i dont care if you tag along". mkae of that what you will.)
3
euc = "extended universe canon"
any media added to the universe that is not considered explicitly mc by the ipo but is excepted by the ipo as part of the euc.
(feel free to correct me if i am talking shit. any help would be welcome)
4
hc = "head canon"
ANYTHING THAT YOU PERSONALLY CONSIDER TO BE PART OF THE FRANCHISE OR WOULD LIKED TO HAVE BEEN PART OF THE FRANCHISE.
point:
relying only on the ipo and mc is going to keep making it hard to have a conversation because the ipo will deliberately add stuff to mc so
THAT IT WILL DELIBERATELY NOT MAKE SENSE. WITH PROMETHUES BEING A PRIME EXAMPLE.
listen to some of the podcasts. fox on many ocasions tell writers not to explain how the alien biology works or see.
BECAUSE THEY KNOW EXPLAINING MYSTERIES ABOUT THE ALIEN DIMINSHES ITS "ALIENESS" AND PEOPLE WILL NO LONGER CARE .
it makes sense at the end of the day i guess.
i you destroy what fundamentally set peoples s imagination on fire then you a have a real problem. and the resulting movie covenant is what we got. as a back lash .
SCOTT DID NOT GET TO TELL THE STORY HE WANTED TO TELL.
ANYWAYS DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN DIFFERENT KIND S OF CANON MAKES IT POSSABLE TO HAVE A DISCUSSION ABOUT A MOVIE WITHOUT BEATING A DEAD HORSE. YOU HAVE AN OPINION . I HAVE AN OPINIO . BUT AT LEAST KNOW TO WHAT "CANON " YOU ARE REFERRING TO BECAUSE OTHER WISE THESE DISCUSSION
ARE REALLY POINTLESS IMHO.
so ralfy yes: you make many good "canon" points. i just dont understand some of the arguments you have about the movie.
do you read from the manual about the alien universe that is considered canon?
alien colonial marines manual?
didnt sm help in a manual written by perry 's daughter ? also sonsidered canon.
enjoying this discussion tremenduously.
btw ralfy: dont consider me as an expert om any of this . the people here are excellent at what they do. just trying to understand where are coming from.
just my 2 cents . probably wrong
Quote from: oduodu on Jul 06, 2023, 11:20:34 AMafaik "canon" is what we see in the threatrical releases of a movie. the only entity that has the right to add to it is the owner s of the ipo (intelectual property owner). hence books and other media added to the franchise by the ipo or anyone licensed by the ipo.
tr = "theatrical release"
so i se 4 types of canon:
1
mc = "(main) canon"
THEATRICAL RELEASE PLUS ADDED TO BY THE IPO
2
trc = "theatrical release canon"
AS IN WHAT WAS CONSIDER3D CANON AT THE TIME THE MOVIE WAS RELEASED -AND EXPLANATIONS BY THE DIRECTOR SCRIPTWRITERS ORIGINAL CONCEPT -CREATORS
DRAFT SCRIPT TO SHOOTING
IN A 1 YEAR PRIOR TO TR TO ABOUT 2 -3 YEARS AFTER .
(i feel that directors and writers change their view on stuff as time go by. you cant have a discussion about what happens in a movie if original intentions are not first discussed and understood. THEN you can further discusses changed perspectives.) (and also how the creators of euc media might interpret things in the tr) (for instance what cameron has to say about alien tr has as much weight as any one else licenswed to add to the franchise as he wasnt part of the original creative team he might add to it in his own movie but doesnt make him opinion more noteworthy on what happened in alien tr imho) (sometimes there there are things happening in the movie that has no meaning but did in the original script like ripley s nosebleed. she was bleeding because of the alien tail getting stuck in the airlock door and the ensuing depressurisation caused her nose to bleed. it has no meaning or sense in the movie but yest it there . you cam say that she bleed because of some internal trauma causing her blood pressure to raise and fall unexpectedly and sometime peoplewith poor blood clotting ability has such problems yet that has nothing to do with it originaly. yet it is in the movie. )(as was te case in Prey i always felt that the predator in it was showboating for the indian girl when he picked up the bear to show her how strong he was . the movie may not have reflected that
BUT
trachtenburg is on record saying in the podcast that there was originally an intention for a team up. it somehow "spiritually" felt conveyed at least to me. as in he was directly looking at the indian girl and body language saying "look how strong i am little girl and i know you are there but i dont care if you tag along". mkae of that what you will.)
3
euc = "extended universe canon"
any media added to the universe that is not considered explicitly mc by the ipo but is excepted by the ipo as part of the euc.
(feel free to correct me if i am talking shit. any help would be welcome)
4
hc = "head canon"
ANYTHING THAT YOU PERSONALLY CONSIDER TO BE PART OF THE FRANCHISE OR WOULD LIKED TO HAVE BEEN PART OF THE FRANCHISE.
point:
relying only on the ipo and mc is going to keep making it hard to have a conversation because the ipo will deliberately add stuff to mc so
THAT IT WILL DELIBERATELY NOT MAKE SENSE. WITH PROMETHUES BEING A PRIME EXAMPLE.
listen to some of the podcasts. fox on many ocasions tell writers not to explain how the alien biology works or see.
BECAUSE THEY KNOW EXPLAINING MYSTERIES ABOUT THE ALIEN DIMINSHES ITS "ALIENESS" AND PEOPLE WILL NO LONGER CARE .
it makes sense at the end of the day i guess.
i you destroy what fundamentally set peoples s imagination on fire then you a have a real problem. and the resulting movie covenant is what we got. as a back lash .
SCOTT DID NOT GET TO TELL THE STORY HE WANTED TO TELL.
ANYWAYS DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN DIFFERENT KIND S OF CANON MAKES IT POSSABLE TO HAVE A DISCUSSION ABOUT A MOVIE WITHOUT BEATING A DEAD HORSE. YOU HAVE AN OPINION . I HAVE AN OPINIO . BUT AT LEAST KNOW TO WHAT "CANON " YOU ARE REFERRING TO BECAUSE OTHER WISE THESE DISCUSSION
ARE REALLY POINTLESS IMHO.
so ralfy yes: you make many good "canon" points. i just dont understand some of the arguments you have about the movie.
do you read from the manual about the alien universe that is considered canon?
alien colonial marines manual?
didnt sm help in a manual written by perry 's daughter ? also sonsidered canon.
enjoying this discussion tremenduously.
btw ralfy: dont consider me as an expert om any of this . the people here are excellent at what they do. just trying to understand where are coming from.
just my 2 cents . probably wrong
The points I raise are mostly from the movie script, and they're not very hard to understand. To recap,
The claim to Bishop was working alone; reasons,
1. By claiming otherwise, one would depict W-Y as a "cartoonish villain";
2. Cameron says so.
My counter-arguments:
The OP starts his analysis with references to Reagan. The implication is that it's the opposite: when you think that one person can operate independently using resources from large groups like a mega-corporation with multiple divisions and the government, then you're essentially creating a "cartoonish villain." In contrast, what happened during the Reaganite era was multiple members of organizations were involved in deregulating (e.g., leading to the S&L scandal) and dirty tricks in other countries (e.g., Irangate). What's cartoonish is the attempt by the administration to argue that Ollie North was mostly responsible and that the President wasn't involved.
In which case, a more realistic and analytic view of what happened is that Burke wasn't working alone. The reasons from the movie:
The company and government, who had members in the board of inquiry, also knew about the landing location. Given references by Ripley and Burke, and by Ripley in the first movie, both are more than willing to see their personnel and assets as expendable for bio-weapons development, etc. To argue that they suddenly thought otherwise, which is why they didn't bother to check the landing location, makes them cartoonish.
What likely happened, then, is that they ordered Burke to act as their front man, and from which he would receive a percentage, as Ripley pointed out. Why would he receive a percentage and nothing more? Because he pointed out in the movie that the government granted the company mineral rights in exchange for building the colony and terraforming. That means the government retains surface rights, where the alien ship's located.
What about Burke's point about "exclusive rights"? My guess is that either the contents of surface rights is debatable, or that Burke is referring to exclusive rights for W-Y, on which he's operating on company time. That means the government is obliged to grant W-Y the right to exploit the alien ship and its organisms and not itself or any other company.
It's not mentioned in the movies, but I'm guessing that Burke, the colony manager, the Jordens, and Ripley have no means to exploit alien finds because those need company labs, scientists, legal teams, engineers and recovery specialists, manufacturers, etc. That's why like in the real world they'd get a percentage of profits as they wouldn't be able to pay for the assets needed to make those profits.
What about the reference to the author? I find that illogical because that would make this whole thread and any review of the movies, or any work of art, pointless. It implies that only the author is right even though one finds things in the work that he created that goes against his claim. I'll stop there because this argument is absurd.
I gave other points, and some of them are related to this one, but all come from the movie with a few that aren't:
It's very clear that Ripley had no evidence to present to show that her story is true except for the location of the alien ship, and yet for some weird reason she never raises it during the hearing. Instead, she does so after it, when it's too late. And then she accepts van Leuwen's excuse which is absurd: just because one didn't encounter aliens doesn't mean one has to investigate the alien ship landing site.
I think Burke knew about the need to smuggle alien organisms back to company labs, which is why he needed Bishop, who in turn follows him. But that looks risky; he could have come up with a more careful plan and without involving the colony. That is, send in teams to the alien ship location and secure it, probably even using armed company security and mercs.
One thing that's not from the movie is the point that Bishop works for the Marines, and it's from a manual. If that's the case, and he also works for Burke, then that means that the company and the government are in cahoots with each other. There's a realistic precedence to this, and it's shown in what the OP of this thread shared: the Reagan admin. It followed a decades-long policy involving a military industrial complex, where industry and government work together to power up the military, and for the gain of all three. That fits perfectly with Ripley's points about bio-weapons divisions. In which case, the Marines or some other military group could be used to aid Burke and W-Y secure the landing site.
Why the rush? My guess is Burke's reference to "exclusive rights". That is, given surface rights, the government could discover the alien ship itself and then award the right to exploit it to another company. There is no reference to the latter in the movie, but that's the only logical reason I can think of to explain the reference and given my previous points (which all come from the movie, too).
So, that's basically it: I hope my explanation is clearer. The gist is that Burke's and Ripley's remarks about mineral and exclusive rights, the only piece of evidence to support Ripley's story, the background of W-Y and the company given what happened in the first movie, Ash, Bishop's references to instructions from Burke, references to the bio-weapons division, and references to shares or percentages raised by Parker and others as well as Ripley in reference to Burke, all point to the argument that Burke wasn't working alone. And given the OP's reference to the Reagan era, etc., the implication is that by claiming otherwise one ends up with a cartoonish villain.
There is nothing in this that involves creative fan interpretations or requires trolling, using AI, or even hoping for some forum "hero" to make things right. It's just ordinary close reading of the dialogue and events from the movie.
Also, for anyone who wants to go beyond the basic things I did, which is close reading, check out the analysis shared by the OP here:
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?msg=2271362
with references not only to Reagan but even to Maggie Thatcher, feminism, and Rambo!
BTW, for anyone interested in similar, i.e., cultural references, let me know. I've a lot to say about those, too, but given several members' problems with even the basics, I don't think doing so will be worth it.
Quote from: ralfy on Jul 07, 2023, 02:41:30 AMThere is nothing in this that involves creative fan interpretations or requires trolling, using AI, or even hoping for some forum "hero" to make things right.
SM will return some day! And then you'll be sorry! >:(
Vomit comet ☄️
ralfy
could you point to the specific
script
page
and then specifically quote from it.
i am interested to see what take on the scripts you are refering to.
i was just curious because the statement (s) you make cannot have been deducted from the movies alone.
i want you to be specific because i am really interested to read it.
just asking :
what are you peronally advocating
for :
1
that burke was working alone
2
that burke was not working alone
3
you're just arguing both points for sake of it as possabilities
are you advocating for 1 or 2 or 3?
just a bit confused!!
put me out of my misery!!
again i am really interested to know what sets people imagination s on fire. this obviously sets your imagination on fire.
iwant to know why. and why it means ao much to you. in prey i was trying to understand what it was about that sets people's imagination on fire.
i know what i take from the pred franchise.
but what is it that a newer gen of fans take from it.
ralfy:
speak to me. i crave your enlightenment.
lol
ps
love american politics. because it has been fundamental to everything that has happened in the world since bretton woods in 1947. loved Reagan. ah no... not the right place or time..........
Wish SM would make an appearance and tell him once and for all his fan fiction take on the movie is nonsense.
Quote from: oduodu on Jul 07, 2023, 06:36:14 AMralfy
could you point to the specific
script
page
and then specifically quote from it.
i am interested to see what take on the scripts you are refering to.
i was just curious because the statement (s) you make cannot have been deducted from the movies alone.
i want you to be specific because i am really interested to read it.
just asking :
what are you peronally advocating
for :
1
that burke was working alone
2
that burke was not working alone
3
you're just arguing both points for sake of it as possabilities
are you advocating for 1 or 2 or 3?
just a bit confused!!
put me out of my misery!!
again i am really interested to know what sets people imagination s on fire. this obviously sets your imagination on fire.
iwant to know why. and why it means ao much to you. in prey i was trying to understand what it was about that sets people's imagination on fire.
i know what i take from the pred franchise.
but what is it that a newer gen of fans take from it.
ralfy:
speak to me. i crave your enlightenment.
lol
ps
love american politics. because it has been fundamental to everything that has happened in the world since bretton woods in 1947. loved Reagan. ah no... not the right place or time..........
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/files/scripts/aliens-1985-09-23.pdf
Pages:
3. Burke: "Carter Burke. I work for the company."
Can we consider the reference to Ripley planning to sue the company for "willful neglicence," whether or not it shows up in the movie? Or is this a minor aside?
7. Burke: "You got feds, you got interstellar...." (shows that both company and gov't are involved in the investigation, and implicitly collude with each other, as will be seen later)
8. Van Leuwen: "The lifeboat's flight recorder corroborates some elements of your account." (Read the rest: flight recorders don't simply tell you that a ship landed but where. That's where the alien ship's located.)
9. ECA Rep: "...something which has never been reported once from over three hundred surveyed worlds...." (Shows active projects by both gov't and company in finding and monetizing finds. What about Arcturians? See later.)
Burke: "You had them eating out of your hand...." (To Ripley, you believe this guy? The opposite happened, "kiddo". Maybe you should have gotten a lawyer, unless of course it's just a board of inquiry.)
10. Van Leuwen: "Said license is hereby suspended...." (Wait a minute: sentencing for an inquiry?) "File closed." (Why didn't anyone bring up the alien ship location?)
Ripley: "Why would you just check out LV-426?" (Oh, there you go. But you're too late, sweetie!)
Van Leuwen: "Because I don't have to. There have been people there...." (Wait: that's not the right answer! Ripley accepted that?")
Ripley: "How many are there? How many colonists?" (Wait a minute: Ripley didn't know that there was a colony there? Definitely needed a lawyer to do due diligence. Unless it's a board of inquiry only? If so, then why the judgment?)
13. Lydecker: "Says he's onto something and and wants to know will his claim be honored." (Read the rest: shows that there's no full rights to this. Those who work on the company clock gets a claim, and thus a percentage. See later for more details.)
16. Ripley: "I can't believe this. You guys throw me to the wolves...." (Good. Maybe you can demand concessions because it looks like they're proving you right!)
Burke: "It may just be a down transmitter. But if it's not, I want you there...as an advisor." (Obviously, they know that it's not. Why else send an advisor and an armed group? Demand for better terms, Ripley!)
Burke: "....they're packing state-of-the-art firepower" (So, it's obvious that the claim made earlier in this board that they didn't know what to expect is ridiculous.)
Burke: "Well, the corporation that colony with the Colonial Administration against mineral rights." (There you have it: they're obviously not working alone and Burke doesn't get "everything". LOL. The government has surface rights, and the company mineral rights, and Burke's front man for both, as Gorman also knows what to expect. The only thing that's left is putting two and two together, and seeing that the mission is not simply meant to repair downed transmitters or save juicy colonists' daughters but much more. Can Ripley realize that?)
18. Ripley: "Just tell me one thing. That you're going out there to kill them. Not to study." (Apparently not.)
21. Frost: "Arcturan poontang" (Should have reported that to the ECA Rep.)
Ripley: "You never said anything about an android being here!" (If they put one on the Nostromo, then why would they not do the same, especially for a mission where they know that aliens exist? C'mon!)
Bishop: "Impossible for me to harm...." (Yes, but you'll still follow company orders, right?)
23.
Gorman: "...a xenomorph may be involved."
Hicks: "It's a bug-hunt." (Someone pointed out earlier that "bug hunt" simply refers to working out kinks in a system. Yeah, you need state-of-the-art firepower to do that.)
Gorman: "We also have Ripley's report on disk." (In short, Gorman knows everything that Ripley, Burke, and the board knows.)
36.
Burke: "These are dead. There's just the two alive." (Earlier, some pointed out that the colony was overwhelmed quickly, and because of that likely could not send any distress signal to the company. And yet they managed to extract several living and dead facehuggers. Maybe they were too excited doing that no one bothered to inform the company about what they found.)
57.
Ripley: "This operation is under military jurisdiction...." (That means Burke couldn't have been working alone and arranged everything. Rather, the military sent the armed group following every point raised above and the company worked with them, using Burke as a front man. Probably the only one who knew their actual goal besides him was Gorman, especially given the point that Gorman was with Burke when they met Ripley.)
Burke: "Look, this is a multimillion dollar installation." (Actually, Burke is right: if they're clear of the site, then they could go to orbit and send a message to the authorities and wait for instructions. Also, wait a minute: is Bishop with them? Or they probably didn't need to get him because he's not human.)
60.
Ripley: "...call up some kind of floor plan file." (Should have done this before disembarked, with Apone briefing his personnel about such.)
Bishop: "I'd like to continue my analysis." (Nice to see you, Bishop! Analyses likely needed to help them beat the creatures, but can also be sent to the company via transmitter because that's important, too, but the transmitter went down. Should have fixed that first and set a command base before venturing out, right? Or maybe set up a second transmitter to serve as a backup in the APC.)
67.
Bishop: "Mr. Burke gave instructions that they were to be kept alive in stasis for return to the company labs. He was very specific." (Bishop is supposed to be working for the Marines but in this case he's working for Burke. Burke's obviously not working alone as he needs Bishop and Gorman, and is obviously also working with company officials who will be studying the specimens and monetizing them. In short, he's a front for the company and the government.)
Ripley: "Look, Burke, we had an agreement!" (Definitely needed a lawyer.)
Burke: "...you're the representative of the company who discovered this species..." (In short, it's all percentages or shares. No one gets sole rights.)
68.
Burke: "Then no exclusive rights, nothing." (Likely implies that the alien ship is part of surface rights, and thus owned by the government. For the company to exploit that exclusive rights have to be obtained from the same government. That means W-Y needed to find it or aliens first, and that's why Burke moved quickly. In any event, these also mean that he wasn't working alone or could have gotten all benefits from the find.)
81.
Ripley: "He figured he could get an alien back through quarantine..." (Likely, he had a way to get the facehuggers back through quarantine using Bishop. He resorted to this new plan because Ripley was on to him. Should have not brought along Ripley, or probably just kept her and others on board the Sulaco, just like what they did with the Nostromo in the first movie.)
82.
Ripley: "...screwing each other over a....percentage" (It's all about percentages. Imagining that this is about a cartoon villain who's working alone because he'd get sole rights to finds looks too cartoonish.)
🤮 ☄️
ok ty
will read it
again judt trying to understand your point of view.
He's just repeating himself over and over like a stuck record.
The tiny little lines of dialogue you're using to prove your point do not in fact prove your point. They're either too obscure and can be interpreted many different ways (but apparently only one way according to you, your way and only yours) or they don't remotely mean what they think you think they mean.
Yes the Company and other Government bodies were involved in the investigation of the disappearance of the Nostromo.
NOBODY IS DENYING THAT! WE ARE SAYING AFTER THE INVESTIGATION CONCLUDES AND THEY DONT BELIEVE RIPLEY'S VERSION OF EVENTS THEY LET IT GO AND MOVE ON! "Move on". Something you seem to be unable to do!
Burke acts alone after the investigation is closed. So please stop spewing the same dialogue lines over and over again.
And yes we've already mentioned Burke telling Bishop to pack up the specimens. So? Burke is an Android, he follows orders. If Gorman or Apone or even Hicks isn't giving Bishop any counter orders (please Bishop whatever you do don't preserve those specimens and if anyone tells you to do so don't do it". They never say that to him! So a Company official asks him (not orders, asks) to pack them up for return to Company labs and Bishop at that moment in time has no reason to challenge that request. That is literally all it is.
Wait... people still read Ralfy's posts here? There's an ignore button you know. 🤣
But from the replies, let me guess; movie misquotes, out-there interpretations, Burke wasn't working alone, everyone knew the location of the derelict, Arcturians are aliens, the entire alien fandom and everyone who's ever watched the movie are fanboys and wrong, only Ralfy is right, James Cameron doesn't understand his own movie, etc etc blah blah waffle... (am I on the mark?) 😂
(https://i.redd.it/4rmnucln1gia1.png)
I'm just glad it isn't another Egg on the Sulaco thread resurrection.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jul 08, 2023, 02:31:18 PMWait... people still read Ralfy's posts here? There's an ignore button you know. 🤣
But from the replies, let me guess; movie misquotes, out-there interpretations, Burke wasn't working alone, everyone knew the location of the derelict, Arcturians are aliens, the entire alien fandom and everyone who's ever watched the movie are fanboys and wrong, only Ralfy is right, James Cameron doesn't understand his own movie, etc etc blah blah waffle... (am I on the mark?) 😂
Nailed it.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jul 08, 2023, 02:31:18 PMWait... people still read Ralfy's posts here? There's an ignore button you know. 🤣
But from the replies, let me guess; movie misquotes, out-there interpretations, Burke wasn't working alone, everyone knew the location of the derelict, Arcturians are aliens, the entire alien fandom and everyone who's ever watched the movie are fanboys and wrong, only Ralfy is right, James Cameron doesn't understand his own movie, etc etc blah blah waffle... (am I on the mark?) 😂
Free rides on the vomit comet 🤮 ☄️
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jul 08, 2023, 08:38:58 PMhttps://i.redd.it/4rmnucln1gia1.png
I'm just glad it isn't another Egg on the Sulaco thread resurrection.
Don't tempt fate. 😬
When people say Burke is working alone Ralfy insists they mean he organised the whole expedition to the colony, despite being told repeatedly this is not what anybody means.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jul 08, 2023, 02:01:15 PMHe's just repeating himself over and over like a stuck record.
The tiny little lines of dialogue you're using to prove your point do not in fact prove your point. They're either too obscure and can be interpreted many different ways (but apparently only one way according to you, your way and only yours) or they don't remotely mean what they think you think they mean.
Yes the Company and other Government bodies were involved in the investigation of the disappearance of the Nostromo.
NOBODY IS DENYING THAT! WE ARE SAYING AFTER THE INVESTIGATION CONCLUDES AND THEY DONT BELIEVE RIPLEY'S VERSION OF EVENTS THEY LET IT GO AND MOVE ON! "Move on". Something you seem to be unable to do!
Burke acts alone after the investigation is closed. So please stop spewing the same dialogue lines over and over again.
And yes we've already mentioned Burke telling Bishop to pack up the specimens. So? Burke is an Android, he follows orders. If Gorman or Apone or even Hicks isn't giving Bishop any counter orders (please Bishop whatever you do don't preserve those specimens and if anyone tells you to do so don't do it". They never say that to him! So a Company official asks him (not orders, asks) to pack them up for return to Company labs and Bishop at that moment in time has no reason to challenge that request. That is literally all it is.
What different ways? You only referred to one point in your post, so let's look at that.
The point isn't that Bishop is following orders because he's an android, it's that he's working for Burke. But according to one manual, he's supposed to be working for the military. So which is it?
Next, if Burke is giving Bishop orders because you claim Gorman, Apone, or Hicks didn't or didn't give any countermands, then does that mean that the orders of the Marines was to prepare the facehuggers for company labs?
Third, didn't Ripley mention that the mission is under military jurisdiction, and that Burke doesn't contradict that? And why does Hicks disregard Burke's argument and want the colony nuked? That contradicts your claim that Hicks is involved. Likely, it's only Gorman, who gives only enough instructions to Apone, who in turn does the same to the "grunts". That is, the latter are instructed to rescue "juicy" colonists' daughters with Apone surpervising them, which is why they're so excited about doing that, and even after reading Ripley's brief. Meanwhile, Bishop is left to "analyze" the facehuggers to the point that they even either forgot about him as they called Ferro to rescue them or that they figured that because he's a synth then the aliens would leave him alone.
What about Gorman? He left Bishop to do his analysis (i.e., in light of the point given a manual that Bishop is under his command), followed his usual role as commander of the unit, but met with Burke and read Ripley's brief before his men did. In addition, I'd have to come up with another cartoonish context about greenhorn lieutenants suddenly able to commandeer military assets and men, and without knowledge of his higher-ups, as that can only show that Burke was working alone.
Hence, we have a cartoon villain aided by a cartoon military character, with their cartoon high-ups not knowing what's going on because, you know, they're cartoon characters, which means they don't care about profits (which is what kids who watch cartoons don't think about), and meant to support the cartoon storyline that the cartoon villain was working alone.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Jul 08, 2023, 09:31:08 PMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jul 08, 2023, 02:31:18 PMWait... people still read Ralfy's posts here? There's an ignore button you know. 🤣
But from the replies, let me guess; movie misquotes, out-there interpretations, Burke wasn't working alone, everyone knew the location of the derelict, Arcturians are aliens, the entire alien fandom and everyone who's ever watched the movie are fanboys and wrong, only Ralfy is right, James Cameron doesn't understand his own movie, etc etc blah blah waffle... (am I on the mark?) 😂
Nailed it.
Can't counter my argument, can't explain why they're "misquotes," can't explain why explanations following what the OP shared is "out there," basically repeating to himself that Burke was working alone to maintain the cartoon villain storyline, referring to Arcturians when the ECA Rep refers to none, and now desperately referring to Cameron because he can't think for himself and use the same script that the director wrote.
Yep, definitely nailed it.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jul 08, 2023, 08:38:58 PMhttps://i.redd.it/4rmnucln1gia1.png
I'm just glad it isn't another Egg on the Sulaco thread resurrection.
Good to hear that, but I'll see if I can help out in that thread, too.
Here's something to think about: Bishop receiving orders from Burke, and people still figuring out how those eggs were found on the Sulaco.
*checks first page*
Wait, this thread is 5 years old ? f**k
ralfy ty for indicating your sources. but you change your arguments from one thing to another halfway through your point.
quite simply : do you believe burke was working alone?
yay or nay?
Ralfy thinks "working alone" means Burke plans to take eggs home and sell them personally on eBay.
Please be more specific with him.
Quote from: SiL on Jul 09, 2023, 09:08:39 AMRalfy thinks "working alone" means Burke plans to take eggs home and sell them personally on eBay.
Please be more specific with him.
Nah, Burke was going to sell them at his local farmer's market
Quote from: Engineer on Jul 09, 2023, 03:44:26 PMQuote from: SiL on Jul 09, 2023, 09:08:39 AMRalfy thinks "working alone" means Burke plans to take eggs home and sell them personally on eBay.
Please be more specific with him.
Nah, Burke was going to sell them at his local farmer's market
"But but, Burke... and the company, and the fbi... they were all in on it! They all had a derelict treasure map from the Nostromo black box, and Bishop works for Burke!! Weyland Yutani owns the colonial marines!! Remember the line in the movie "Arcturian poontang"? It means the Arcturians beamed the egg aboard the sulaco from their flying saucer, it's there in the script see? SEE!?? You're just trolls and fanboys if you say otherwise! Remember the line "maybe it's like an ant hive"? It's cause of BUG HUNTS!! Big giant Ant Kaiju that space marines fight in powerloaders daily! James Cameron only wrote and directed the movie, he doesn't understand - IM QUOTING THE SCRIIIIPT!!!" ~Ralfy~
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jul 09, 2023, 04:49:02 PMQuote from: Engineer on Jul 09, 2023, 03:44:26 PMQuote from: SiL on Jul 09, 2023, 09:08:39 AMRalfy thinks "working alone" means Burke plans to take eggs home and sell them personally on eBay.
Please be more specific with him.
Nah, Burke was going to sell them at his local farmer's market
"But but, Burke... and the company, and the fbi... they were all in on it! They all had a derelict treasure map from the Nostromo black box, and Bishop works for Burke!! Weyland Yutani owns the colonial marines!! Remember the line in the movie "Arcturian poontang"? It means the Arcturians beamed the egg aboard the sulaco from their flying saucer, it's there in the script see? SEE!?? You're just trolls and fanboys if you say otherwise! Remember the line "maybe it's like an ant hive"? It's cause of BUG HUNTS!! Big giant Ant Kaiju that space marines fight in powerloaders daily! James Cameron only wrote and directed the movie, he doesn't understand - IM QUOTING THE SCRIIIIPT!!!" ~Ralfy~
Love this.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jul 09, 2023, 04:49:02 PMQuote from: Engineer on Jul 09, 2023, 03:44:26 PMQuote from: SiL on Jul 09, 2023, 09:08:39 AMRalfy thinks "working alone" means Burke plans to take eggs home and sell them personally on eBay.
Please be more specific with him.
Nah, Burke was going to sell them at his local farmer's market
"But but, Burke... and the company, and the fbi... they were all in on it! They all had a derelict treasure map from the Nostromo black box, and Bishop works for Burke!! Weyland Yutani owns the colonial marines!! Remember the line in the movie "Arcturian poontang"? It means the Arcturians beamed the egg aboard the sulaco from their flying saucer, it's there in the script see? SEE!?? You're just trolls and fanboys if you say otherwise! Remember the line "maybe it's like an ant hive"? It's cause of BUG HUNTS!! Big giant Ant Kaiju that space marines fight in powerloaders daily! James Cameron only wrote and directed the movie, he doesn't understand - IM QUOTING THE SCRIIIIPT!!!" ~Ralfy~
Ok but where do the farmer's markets fit in to this?
The fact he's not planning on selling them on the farmers market is proof he's not working alone, duh.
It's all about the landing location, yo.
Oh
That's right
Silly me
If he's working with someone that means he must be trying to sell them to "Market of Choice"
Quote from: oduodu on Jul 09, 2023, 06:24:05 AMralfy ty for indicating your sources. but you change your arguments from one thing to another halfway through your point.
quite simply : do you believe burke was working alone?
yay or nay?
I never argued that he was working alone. But others did and gave two reasons:
1. If he didn't, then that would turn W-Y into a "cartoon villain." That means it's absurd for companies to do something like make Burke a point man.
2. Cameron says so.
My counterarguments:
1. It's the other way round: in the real world, companies and even governments do such things, and the reference to the Reagan era in the OP is notable. Ollie North, for example, was the point man in Irangate but received flak to cover the President's hide, and the S&L scandal, among others, revealed collusion between the financial elite and the government. There's also neoconservatism via support for various dictatorships worldwide while dishing out the "evil empire" storyline. In contrast to this is view that Ollie acted alone. It's like those Wacky Races episodes where it's always and only the fault of Dick Dastardly, but with Muttley getting the last laugh. One could imagine Burke twirling his thin mustache and laughing insanely. LOL.
2. Relying on the author for the meaning of a work is a very old and antiquated view, and becomes irrational when one discovers things in the work that contradict his intentions, so I don't see why anyone in his right mind would keep pushing this, and in, of all places, a thread that analyzes the film.
Quote from: Kradan on Jul 09, 2023, 05:40:31 AM*checks first page*
Wait, this thread is 5 years old ? f**k
Non-fans won't understand this.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jul 09, 2023, 09:03:38 PMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jul 09, 2023, 04:49:02 PMQuote from: Engineer on Jul 09, 2023, 03:44:26 PMQuote from: SiL on Jul 09, 2023, 09:08:39 AMRalfy thinks "working alone" means Burke plans to take eggs home and sell them personally on eBay.
Please be more specific with him.
Nah, Burke was going to sell them at his local farmer's market
"But but, Burke... and the company, and the fbi... they were all in on it! They all had a derelict treasure map from the Nostromo black box, and Bishop works for Burke!! Weyland Yutani owns the colonial marines!! Remember the line in the movie "Arcturian poontang"? It means the Arcturians beamed the egg aboard the sulaco from their flying saucer, it's there in the script see? SEE!?? You're just trolls and fanboys if you say otherwise! Remember the line "maybe it's like an ant hive"? It's cause of BUG HUNTS!! Big giant Ant Kaiju that space marines fight in powerloaders daily! James Cameron only wrote and directed the movie, he doesn't understand - IM QUOTING THE SCRIIIIPT!!!" ~Ralfy~
Love this.
Burke wasn't in on it. Rather, he got the information about the landing site during the inquiry, together with government officials, insurers, etc.
Bishop works for Burke because he told Ripley that he received instructions from him to prepare the specimens from the company lab.
W-Y doesn't own the Colonial Marines. Rather, W-Y works with the government that owns the Colonial Marines. That's why Ripley argues in the first movie that the reason why they're expendable is because the company wants to use alien tech through its bioweapons division. Usually, the main recipient of such is the military, which works for the government.
The reference to Arcturans contradicts the claim by the ECA Rep that they had not found a creature that Ripley describes in three hundred explored worlds. One can argue that they're still correct, i.e., they had found other creatures like Arcturans but not like the alien. But my understanding is that the reason they don't believe her is because they had not found anything sophisticated in those worlds. Hence, "No indigenous
life larger than a simple virus."
But if they had encountered Arcturans, then why dismiss Ripley's claims easily, especially given the fact that they have the location of the alien ship. It'd just be a matter of asking those who are on the planet, like the colonists, to find out. More important, Ripley wants to defend herself, and that's also the only piece of evidence she has left.
Last point: the movie is based on the script, so why the hysterical trolling? Even now they still can't counter my arguments in a rational manner, which is why I've no choice but to ignore them.
start quote
Relying on the author for the meaning of a work is a very old and antiquated view, and becomes irrational when one discovers things in the work that contradict his intentions, so I don't see why anyone in his right mind would keep pushing this, and in, of all places, a thread that analyzes the film.
end quote
i am saying it is A WAY. not the only way. for me at least it is as important as any other way.
where does cameron contradict his original intentions?
ok so ya saying burke did not work alone.
1. Assume the movie is wrong
2. Work backwards
Quote from: oduodu on Jul 10, 2023, 10:37:02 AMstart quote
Relying on the author for the meaning of a work is a very old and antiquated view, and becomes irrational when one discovers things in the work that contradict his intentions, so I don't see why anyone in his right mind would keep pushing this, and in, of all places, a thread that analyzes the film.
end quote
i am saying it is A WAY. not the only way. for me at least it is as important as any other way.
where does cameron contradict his original intentions?
ok so ya saying burke did not work alone.
You answered your own question.
In response to
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?msg=2606967
QuoteThe point is Burke has gone around them, he hasn't asked Gorman or Hicks if he can transport the specimens, he's gone straight to Bishop because Bishop is programed to take instructions from humans. Burke has done this on purpose as he knows the chain of command within the Marines is fractured, he knows they ate stressed out and preoccupied with other matters. He does this AFTER half of the Marines are killed or incapacity in the nest, NOT before when everyone is calm and level headed. How are you not understanding that? Had Bishop been WY property and had Bishop been under Burkes command, Burke would have 'ordered' him to secure the specimens the moment they discovered them, not 4 hours later when they've lost half their Marines, the APC and their only way off the colony. Why wouldn't he have transported the specimens to the dropship immediately? Ferro and co weren't doing anything at the time they had been ordered to touch down and await instructions! They could have helped Bishop move the specimens on board!
Bishop is programmed to receive instructions (and those mean orders) from the Marines. Why is he receiving them from Burke? The chain of command is still intact, with Hicks in command, and which he acknowledges that.
Burke isn't just ordering Bishop around, Bishop himself continues to analyze the facehuggers even after what happened to the Marines. Why's that? His activities are similar to Ash's, and Ash was working for the company.
Likely Burke ordered Bishop even earlier, i.e., to analyze and secure organisms and tech for transport. Ripley realized it only when she ordered Bishop to destroy the facehuggers.
Here's where it gets worse: following the argument that Burke should have made the order earlier, even Ripley should have made the order earlier! Remember the first time that they saw the facehuggers in the lab and even Hicks was making fun of Burke? Ripley could have said right there that the facehuggers should have been destroyed. One could argue the Marines wouldn't believe her because her story isn't proven. If so, then what do you call those things in the lab?
In fact, they could have done that right after they went back to the labs, as there's nothing more that would question Ripley's story.
QuoteBecause Burke has NO authority that's why! And the movie makes that clear! The only time Burke realises he might get away with collecting the specimens is when all chaos has broken loose!
That sounds illogical because it implies that Burke only considers collecting the specimens only if he could get away with it. Meanwhile, it looks like the Marines didn't care about what Bishop was doing (see above).
QuoteNow had Bishop prepared the specimens for transport before Ripley had got to him and told him to destroy them, there is absolutely no doubt any of the Marines would have allowed it. Hicks wouldn't have gone with it, Hudson certainly wouldn't have, Vasquez absolutely wouldn't have accepted it, Gorman regardless of his stance would have likely sided with Hicks due to not wanting to rock the boat anymore due to his previous errors of judgement. The specimens would never have got off planet while any of those Marines were aware of it and the point is Burke was trying to do it while they WERENT aware. How does that say Burke is in charge of Bishop, can order him around and has any authority. It says the exact opposite.
The Marines not allowing it? Gorman not wanting to rock the boat? The military is not a democracy.
Also, even Ripley couldn't make Bishop destroy the facehuggers, which is why she had to confront Burke. And even then she couldn't tell Hicks and others about what Bishop was told to do. Instead, the raised it only after she and Newt were almost infected thanks to Burke.
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?msg=2606967
QuoteYou think WY absolutely knows about the Alien and wants live specimens desperately during the events of Aliens? You're incorrect. If I want these specimens, I believe they exist and I'm desperate to get my hands on some' do I go to a colony of 156 people that's been infected and go have my pick of the organisms there? Yes of course I would that's absolutely my best chance of getting hold of some.
Or do I wait until most of said specimens have been destroyed by a nuclear blast and then go chasing after one single specimen on a prison planet? No that would be logically stupid!
Oh it's because I haven't believed Ripley and her story! I think she's nuts! I don't believe these aliens exist so let the Colonial Marines waste their time and resources going to investigate a 'downed transmitter'.
The only time I realise I've been mistaken is suddenly I've intercepted a transmission from the Sulaco saying an extra terrestrial organism has caused a cryo tube fire and has been ejected along with Ripley down to Fury 161. Ahhh Ripley was telling the truth, right let's immediately dispatch our OWN WY ship and go get it.
All proof that WY isn't being sinister during Aliens, they simply don't believe Ripley. Otherwise they would have immediately gone themselves to the Colony. So no Burke isn't taking sinister behind the scenes orders, no he's not in charge of Bishop, no WY isn't in on the events of the colony, no WY doesn't at that point believe Xenomorphs are real, no WY doesn't believe Ripley. They only suddenly do realise once the Sulaco has ejected its EEV and the ships sensor readings are broadcast back to them! Not before, not ONE minute before that!
So your theories are nonsense. Burke during the events of Aliens is just single handedly trying to seize an opportunity, for himself and only himself.
Why is it illogical to argue that WY did not care? Because according to Burke, they have a bioweapons division and lots of opportunities to profit from such findings:
QuoteBurke: Those specimens are worth millions to the bio-weapons division. Now, if you're smart we can both come out of this heroes. Set up for life.
You don't maintain such by ignoring finds, especially when they can easily be verified, which is ironically what happened in the movie.
Why is it illogical to argue that Burke worked independently? Because like Ripley he would receive a percentage of earnings. In addition, he very likely joined the mission not as an private citizen but as a company official:
QuoteBurke: Well, the corporation co-financed that colony with the Colonial Administration, against mineral rights. We're getting into a lot of terraforming...'Building Better Worlds.'
Also,
QuoteBurke: What if I said I could get you reinstated as a flight officer? And that the company has agreed to pick up your contract?
In short, those are actions of a company official, not someone working independently.
Why is it illogical to claim that Burke would have gotten everything from such finds?
QuoteBurke: I know, I know, but we're dealing with changing scenarios here. This thing is major, Ripley. I mean really major. You gotta go with its energy. Since you are the representative of the company who discovered this species your percentage will naturally be some serious, serious money.
In short, they all get percentages: the survivors of the Nostromo crew and Burke. The company manufactures and sells, and the military buys.
Why, then, did they rush?
QuoteBurke: Look, maybe the thing didn't even exist, right? And if I'd made it a major security situation, the Administration would've stepped in. Then no exclusive rights, nothing.
In short, the company gets only mineral rights (see the earlier quote), and the alien ship, etc., are above ground, which means the government which owns the rock would have stepped in. Why? Because one of their agencies, the ICC, would not allow for things like transport of alien organisms.
QuoteRipley: You just try getting a dangerous organism past ICC quarantine. Section 22350 of the Commerce Code.
Burke: You've been doing your homework. Look, they can't impound it if they don't know about it.
This also implies that Burke was planning for all of these all along. And since he's a company official, then he's definitely working for the company, especially given the fact that he met with Gorman, who has higher ups.
What does "exclusive rights" mean, then? It refers to W-Y getting the rights to exploit what's discovered from the alien ship because they found it first. That's why Burke called the colony and told the colony manager to send someone to the landing site and investigate.
What about Gorman and the rest? Likely Gorman received orders from higher-ups (who would be very interested in products developed by the W-Y bioweapons division) to cooperate with Burke while rescuing "juicy" colonists' daughters, and Apone and the "grunts" in turn would have received orders from Gorman, as seen in the briefing.
What other things can we consider? The unit sent specializes in "bug hunts," which turns out to involve looking for "bugs" in systems (LOL) but hunting creatures for which "state-of-the-art firepower" would be needed. In short, they knew that they were not simply dealing with "[downed] transmitters".
In response to
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?msg=2606975
QuotePretty much what Jonjamess said.
In Alien, at least one person at WY knows there's a potentially interesting organism on LV-426, because they stick Ash on board with orders to bring it back. But the company as a whole clearly doesn't know because otherwise they would've gone back between the first two movies (and, if you ask me, would've sent a properly equipped team in the first place, not a bunch of truckers). The total burying of the incident between movies only makes sense if it's just one or more individuals who subsequently go out of their way to cover their backs.
By Aliens, those responsible have either died or moved on, because Burke is the only person who seems even remotely interested in what Ripley has to say. And again, nothing he does in the movie suggests he has any official company backing - like the mystery perpetrator(s) in the first film he's winging it, operating alone to try and make a quick buck for himself. And he has no authority over the mission.
It's not until Alien 3 that the company as an entity (or at least a department of it) knows about the Alien and takes an active interest in getting hold of one.
They didn't move on. Instead, they came up with a bio-weapons divisions.
Burke would have been the only one interested because he was representing W-Y in the board of inquiry, and no other company officials were shown in the movie. Van Leuwen was an ICC Rep, and there was an ECA rep, too. The others would have been the Feds and insurers:
QuoteLook, I believe you, but there are going to be some heavyweights in there. You got Feds, you got interstellar commerce commission, you got colonial administration, insurance company guys...
In addition, it would not have made sense for any of them to not to care, even from a non-monetizing perspective. For example, the ICC does not want alien organisms smuggled, and thus would have shown interest in Ripley's story. So would the ECA rep as the presence of such would be a threat to the colony. If the Feds refer to the equivalent of the government which authorizes the miitary like the Colonial Marines, then it'd be interested, too, as it gains from development of bio-weapons. Given that, probably only the insurers wouldn't care, but that's dependent on how the Nostromo was insured.
In which case, to insist that Burke worked alone because none of these organizations care would make him look like a cartoon villain. What looks more logical is that W-Y saw an opportunity for its bio-weapons division to profit, and had Burke, who according to one source is part of a research division of the W-Y, to join the mission as company liaison.
Spoiler
(https://s20.directupload.net/images/230712/w4w3oebr.jpg)
Burke was working for the company, yes.
Burke was also working alone.
He sent the Jordens out to check whether Ripley's story had any merit, because the result of the board meeting showed nobody else did. His actions alone caused the Hadley's Hope incident.
When the comms went down, he knew that Ripley was telling the truth, so wanted to make sure he was on the mission in order to secure proof that these aliens existed (because the rest of WY didn't believe Ripley), so he could bring them back, show WY, and get a big fat promotion and paycheck.
Both working for the company, and working alone.
Burke is employed by the Company.
Burke is acting under his own volition to get the Alien.
Ralfy does not get this.
Quote from: Stitch on Jul 12, 2023, 03:43:24 AMBurke was working for the company, yes.
Burke was also working alone.
He sent the Jordens out to check whether Ripley's story had any merit, because the result of the board meeting showed nobody else did. His actions alone caused the Hadley's Hope incident.
When the comms went down, he knew that Ripley was telling the truth, so wanted to make sure he was on the mission in order to secure proof that these aliens existed (because the rest of WY didn't believe Ripley), so he could bring them back, show WY, and get a big fat promotion and paycheck.
Both working for the company, and working alone.
We have the following info:
According to Cameron, Burke was the "Special Projects Director for Weyland-Yutani (Space) Corp's Special Services Division":
https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Carter_Burke#cite_note-A2-3
And it manages research programs of W-Y:
https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Weyland-Yutani_Corporation#cite_note-A2-2
In which case, one can argue that he worked for the mission because he is the head of the research division of the company. Whatever he discovers can then be analyzed in the company labs and then engineered and produced by the bio-weapons division.
Burke was in "special projects" not "research division"
Lol
Quote from: ralfy on Jul 13, 2023, 12:12:43 AMQuote from: Stitch on Jul 12, 2023, 03:43:24 AMBurke was working for the company, yes.
Burke was also working alone.
He sent the Jordens out to check whether Ripley's story had any merit, because the result of the board meeting showed nobody else did. His actions alone caused the Hadley's Hope incident.
When the comms went down, he knew that Ripley was telling the truth, so wanted to make sure he was on the mission in order to secure proof that these aliens existed (because the rest of WY didn't believe Ripley), so he could bring them back, show WY, and get a big fat promotion and paycheck.
Both working for the company, and working alone.
We have the following info:
According to Cameron, Burke was the "Special Projects Director for Weyland-Yutani (Space) Corp's Special Services Division":
https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Carter_Burke#cite_note-A2-3
And it manages research programs of W-Y:
https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Weyland-Yutani_Corporation#cite_note-A2-2
In which case, one can argue that he worked for the mission because he is the head of the research division of the company. Whatever he discovers can then be analyzed in the company labs and then engineered and produced by the bio-weapons division.
None of that contraindicates anything I said.
So he's head of Special Projects, so what? He's still not head of W-Y as a whole, and the review board scene shows that the higher ups don't believe Ripley.
He was acting of his own volition. Hell, the fact that he's Director of Special Projects means he's more likely to be working alone so that he can have the alien in his own division, rather than being beholden to anyone else. That way his team gets the glory, and he gets a big fat paycheck. That he doesn't want to share. Because he'll screw his own kind over for a percentage.
oh ok
its cameron's commentaries on the dvd's .
Presented without comment.
Quote from: maledoro on Oct 09, 2007, 03:05:26 PMI'm all for being an individual and going against the grain, but why do you want to support a viewpoint that is not only unpopular but is unsubstantiated as well?
RIP Mal :'(
Quote from: Stitch on Jul 13, 2023, 01:01:46 AMQuote from: ralfy on Jul 13, 2023, 12:12:43 AMQuote from: Stitch on Jul 12, 2023, 03:43:24 AMBurke was working for the company, yes.
Burke was also working alone.
He sent the Jordens out to check whether Ripley's story had any merit, because the result of the board meeting showed nobody else did. His actions alone caused the Hadley's Hope incident.
When the comms went down, he knew that Ripley was telling the truth, so wanted to make sure he was on the mission in order to secure proof that these aliens existed (because the rest of WY didn't believe Ripley), so he could bring them back, show WY, and get a big fat promotion and paycheck.
Both working for the company, and working alone.
We have the following info:
According to Cameron, Burke was the "Special Projects Director for Weyland-Yutani (Space) Corp's Special Services Division":
https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Carter_Burke#cite_note-A2-3
And it manages research programs of W-Y:
https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Weyland-Yutani_Corporation#cite_note-A2-2
In which case, one can argue that he worked for the mission because he is the head of the research division of the company. Whatever he discovers can then be analyzed in the company labs and then engineered and produced by the bio-weapons division.
None of that contraindicates anything I said.
So he's head of Special Projects, so what? He's still not head of W-Y as a whole, and the review board scene shows that the higher ups don't believe Ripley.
He was acting of his own volition. Hell, the fact that he's Director of Special Projects means he's more likely to be working alone so that he can have the alien in his own division, rather than being beholden to anyone else. That way his team gets the glory, and he gets a big fat paycheck. That he doesn't want to share. Because he'll screw his own kind over for a percentage.
There's some confusion about the meaning of "working alone".
There's working alone, i.e., working without the company knowing because it doesn't care, and managing to tag along a military rescue contingent (given the claim that the military was alerted about colony communications going down). That's the claim given by several in this thread: he was working as a private citizen and not even as a company liaison or head of his division, and wanted all of the revenues for himself (as opposed to percentages, paychecks, etc.). The company and government didn't care about Ripley's report and only thought that the colony comms went down for some other reason. That's a cartoonish view.
And then there's working alone, i.e., making their own decisions, but still for the company. He acts on his own volition because he's head of Special Projects, which means he does not need to be prompted by higher ups (the ones who appointed him Director and probably even asked him to be the company representative during Ripley's hearing) to investigate this matter, but he still works for higher ups and the company. That also shows that the claim that the company didn't care doesn't make sense. That's my view, and it's more realistic.
It also helps that you also mention that he "gets a big fat paycheck" and would screw others over a percentage, as the paycheck and assigned percentage would be given by W-Y. In short, he was never working alone, i.e., independently of W-Y.
Some more points to consider (and some of these are recaps), and all of these come from the movies, what Cameron said, and a manual:
Burke is head of the research division. That means it's his job to collect alien tech and organisms for company labs. From there, anything discovered can be engineered and manufactured by the bioweapons division (probably working with an engineering division), which in turn has the military as a main customer. Meanwhile, Ripley works for the mining division, together with the Jordens. There's a separate terraforming division with colony services. The government handles administration and security, plus owns territory that's occupied, like LV-426. Finally, anyone, like the Nostromo crew and the Jordens, get a share from anything discovered, and in case of Ripley, required by the company to investigate potential finds.
Given success, Burke would have been given a very nice bonus, Ripley her share with interest, etc., and the company high revenues via bio-weapons and reverse-engineering divisions, plus the military their bio-weapons coupled, and probably improved weaponry and machinery for many industries from alien tech.
The presence of a bioweapons division, Bishop following orders from Burke and analyzing the organisms, and the Marines having "state-of-the-art firepower" needed to deal with "bugs" show the complete opposite of the company and the government didn't care. What likely happened is that company wanted to show Ripley that they didn't care so that they can make it appear to her and to the feds (one of the board members during the inquiry) that they don't have a protocol that makes their personnel expendable, to the ICC (of which van Leuwen is an official) that they don't have a policy of routinely violating quarantine protocols (which is what happened in the first movie, and which they were planning to do for the second), to the insurer (another board member) that they don't have a protocol that makes their insured assets (like the Nostromo and its expensive cargo) expendable, and to ECA (another board member, of which one official pointed out that they found no indigenous organisms in over three hundred worlds) that they wouldn't compromise colony personnel, either.
In this article, Cameron himself shares some more points:
http://www.alienscollection.com/jamescameron.html
That is, Burke could have gotten the alien ship location from the flight recorder.
Keep in mind that all board members had access to the same, and it would not have been difficult for any of them to ask the colony to investigate the location. Why did Burke do it, then? Because he's the W-Y rep in the board, and W-Y is operating the colony in LV-426. The ECA rep administers the colony, but it has no authority to send W-Y personnel to investigate finds. Van Leuwen couldn't investigate the matter as well because he works for the ICC. The feds couldn't have acted because the only personnel on LV-426 that could investigate is a colony that's under the authority of another agency, the ECA. Neither could the insurer because his only concern is what happened to the Nostromo and its cargo.
These points imply that if the government didn't care, it's because they had no capacity or authority to investigate the matter. Only W-Y would, and they would step in only if something went wrong.
Notice, too, that given Cameron's point, of all officials, the company chose to send Burke as its representative during the inquiry. Why? Because according to Cameron, he's head of Special Projects, the division that's precisely tasked with acquiring discoveries.
Why is Burke able to give orders to the colony manager? Because he's head of Special Projects and works for W-Y, together with the colony manager, and the colony consists of W-Y employees with personnel from ECA acting operating as the local government on the rock.
Last, some asides from Cameron:
The reason why the alien distress beacon stopped working was because it was damaged by volcanic activity.
Aliens generally capture those who are weak and unarmed for cocooning while killing those who are armed and considered a greater threat to them.
The tactical nature of the aliens, with orders coming from the queen, was included to show that they are highly intelligent while the presence of the queen explains their life cycle rather than just repeat what was done in the first movie, i.e., with a storyline involving aliens coming from facehuggers that in turn came only from the eggs in the alien ship.
Alteration of the aliens, including the presence of "warriors," was meant to show that the aliens also operate in complex groups, and with specialization.
The main folly of humans is curiosity, e.g., given the presence of the dead, sole passenger on the alien ship not deterring the Nostromo crew or the Jordens.
One possible reason why Ripley got used to her surroundings after being gone for almost six decades is because technology plateaued. (Implicitly, this would have strongly motivated W-Y about her discovery, especially given the point about not seeing anything beyond simple organisms in hundreds of worlds. It also strengthens the point that the company didn't care and that Burke was some sort of Dick Dastardly as cartoonish.)
----
About giving "unpopolar" views, it helps if it turns out that Cameron's script, commentary, and a manual that's routinely used in this forum as reference backs them up.
More important, popularity doesn't count when it comes to analysis, and what's popular is a cartoon villain view of the movie.
Quote from: ralfy on Jul 14, 2023, 02:32:59 AMAlteration of the aliens, including the presence of "warriors," was meant to show that the aliens also operate in complex groups, and with specialization.
Any aliens that are "working alone" though?
Quote from: kwisatz on Jul 14, 2023, 03:02:05 AMQuote from: ralfy on Jul 14, 2023, 02:32:59 AMAlteration of the aliens, including the presence of "warriors," was meant to show that the aliens also operate in complex groups, and with specialization.
Any aliens that are "working alone" though?
Check out the first movie.
Quote from: ralfy on Jul 14, 2023, 03:31:21 AMQuote from: kwisatz on Jul 14, 2023, 03:02:05 AMQuote from: ralfy on Jul 14, 2023, 02:32:59 AMAlteration of the aliens, including the presence of "warriors," was meant to show that the aliens also operate in complex groups, and with specialization.
Any aliens that are "working alone" though?
Check out the first movie.
So you agree then... it is possible for an individual to be part of a larger organization, yet still be working alone.
Quote from: ralfy on Jul 14, 2023, 02:32:59 AMAnd then there's working alone, i.e., making their own decisions, but still for the company. He acts on his own volition because he's head of Special Projects, which means he does not need to be prompted by higher ups (the ones who appointed him Director and probably even asked him to be the company representative during Ripley's hearing) to investigate this matter, but he still works for higher ups and the company. That also shows that the claim that the company didn't care doesn't make sense. That's my view, and it's more realistic.
It also helps that you also mention that he "gets a big fat paycheck" and would screw others over a percentage, as the paycheck and assigned percentage would be given by W-Y. In short, he was never working alone, i.e., independently of W-Y.
If that's your view, then I've no idea what the massive argument is, because that's what most people think.
Everybody knows he's employed by W-Y. Everybody knows that he's after a reward from W-Y.
Nobody thinks he's just working for himself, and that he, personally, stands to gain anything by being in personal possession of an alien. What would that do, other than get you killed?
When people are saying that he's working alone, they are meaning that the Company hasn't given him specific orders to do that, and that he is working of his own volition, on the basis that he thinks they have overlooked something of value, and he can get rewarded by being the one to show them so.
It's entirely possible you're just misinterpreting what everyone is saying.
It's been explained that way, that clearly, repeatedly. He responds by saying the fact the marines are also there is proof he's not working alone -- because he also doesn't listen when people say he has nothing to do with the marines being sent.
Why don't you all return the favor and put him on ignore? Anything else seems like just beating a dead horse or attempting to communicate with a brick.
There's always the off chance he might convince me he's right.
What a noble spirit you have, sir !
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jul 14, 2023, 06:08:15 PMWhy don't you all return the favor and put him on ignore? Anything else seems like just beating a dead horse or attempting to communicate with a brick.
But this is entertaining!
Quote from: Engineer on Jul 14, 2023, 08:18:10 PMQuote from: caffeine4671 on Jul 14, 2023, 06:08:15 PMWhy don't you all return the favor and put him on ignore? Anything else seems like just beating a dead horse or attempting to communicate with a brick.
But this is entertaining!
Suit yourselves. ;D
Lol
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jul 14, 2023, 06:08:15 PMWhy don't you all return the favor and put him on ignore? Anything else seems like just beating a dead horse or attempting to communicate with a brick.
I have, I read his posts through quotes :laugh:
Quote from: SiL on Jul 14, 2023, 09:57:37 PMQuote from: caffeine4671 on Jul 14, 2023, 06:08:15 PMWhy don't you all return the favor and put him on ignore? Anything else seems like just beating a dead horse or attempting to communicate with a brick.
I have, I read his posts through quotes :laugh:
Same 😅 it's an endless loop until people stop giving him the attention he craves - it's now taken over three forum topics. No matter how many times he repeats himself, he is, and always will be completely wrong. Saying it over and over isn't suddenly going to make it right. I'm not entirely sure what he is expecting- Nobody is ever going to agree with him *shrugs*
Aren't you concerned that he may try spreading his gospel to other forums on the internet to anyone who'll listen?
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExc2RjYzg3NGN3NG83ZWtjNjlxN3ZrdHF2NDhkYTh6ZDB2dTV4MzNkayZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/aGygXjKvvpatqL86ex/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 14, 2023, 06:18:12 PMThere's always the off chance he might convince me he's right.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 14, 2023, 11:46:17 PMAren't you concerned that he may try spreading his gospel to other forums on the internet to anyone who'll listen?
https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExc2RjYzg3NGN3NG83ZWtjNjlxN3ZrdHF2NDhkYTh6ZDB2dTV4MzNkayZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/aGygXjKvvpatqL86ex/giphy.gif
I glossed over the gospel to be frank. I wanted to see a fan theory involving Carter Burke being a metaphor for James Cameron's exploration of corporate sexuality or something like that, but I did not get that sadly. :'(
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 14, 2023, 11:46:17 PMAren't you concerned that he may try spreading his gospel to other forums on the internet to anyone who'll listen?
https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExc2RjYzg3NGN3NG83ZWtjNjlxN3ZrdHF2NDhkYTh6ZDB2dTV4MzNkayZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/aGygXjKvvpatqL86ex/giphy.gif
From the guy in bed with the upcoming Killer AI though :-*
Buncha Butlerians around here, but you wouldn't have any idea what I'm talking about. >:(
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 14, 2023, 11:46:17 PMAren't you concerned that he may try spreading his gospel to other forums on the internet to anyone who'll listen?
https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExc2RjYzg3NGN3NG83ZWtjNjlxN3ZrdHF2NDhkYTh6ZDB2dTV4MzNkayZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/aGygXjKvvpatqL86ex/giphy.gif
I have a feeling he already has 😏
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 15, 2023, 01:01:50 AMBuncha Butlerians around here, but you wouldn't have any idea what I'm talking about. >:(
When I see Ralfy, I feel a crusade coming...a Jihad that will spread to every corner of the internet, but I feel helpless to stop it.
EDIT: I forgot he has already started that actually.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jul 15, 2023, 01:09:57 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jul 15, 2023, 01:01:50 AMBuncha Butlerians around here, but you wouldn't have any idea what I'm talking about. >:(
When I see Ralfy, I feel a crusade coming...a Jihad that will spread to every corner of the internet, but I feel helpless to stop it.
I can relate to that
@Local TroubleFight me in the Amtal as ChatGPT's Champion!
Quote from: kwisatz on Jul 15, 2023, 01:16:50 AM@Local Trouble
Fight me in the Amtal as ChatGPT's Champion!
You should have no idea what that means! >:(
Quote from: Stitch on Jul 14, 2023, 05:55:16 AMQuote from: ralfy on Jul 14, 2023, 02:32:59 AMAnd then there's working alone, i.e., making their own decisions, but still for the company. He acts on his own volition because he's head of Special Projects, which means he does not need to be prompted by higher ups (the ones who appointed him Director and probably even asked him to be the company representative during Ripley's hearing) to investigate this matter, but he still works for higher ups and the company. That also shows that the claim that the company didn't care doesn't make sense. That's my view, and it's more realistic.
It also helps that you also mention that he "gets a big fat paycheck" and would screw others over a percentage, as the paycheck and assigned percentage would be given by W-Y. In short, he was never working alone, i.e., independently of W-Y.
If that's your view, then I've no idea what the massive argument is, because that's what most people think.
Everybody knows he's employed by W-Y. Everybody knows that he's after a reward from W-Y.
Nobody thinks he's just working for himself, and that he, personally, stands to gain anything by being in personal possession of an alien. What would that do, other than get you killed?
When people are saying that he's working alone, they are meaning that the Company hasn't given him specific orders to do that, and that he is working of his own volition, on the basis that he thinks they have overlooked something of value, and he can get rewarded by being the one to show them so.
It's entirely possible you're just misinterpreting what everyone is saying.
Go over the thread and see for yourself: the counter-argument is that Burke was working independently because W-Y didn't care, and he did so because he wanted all revenues for himself. The evidence given is that Cameron said so, although I can't find it. In addition, to claim that W-Y cared would make it look like a cartoon villain or that it's an "evil" company.
After that, another pointed out another meaning of "working alone," which is that he was not ordered to do so by the company. But that's not needed because if Cameron is right, i.e., he's the head of "special projects" then he doesn't need to be told to do so. If any, that'd be cartoonish: Burke asking the W-Y officials who appointed him whether or not he should do his job.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jul 14, 2023, 06:08:15 PMWhy don't you all return the favor and put him on ignore? Anything else seems like just beating a dead horse or attempting to communicate with a brick.
My evidence includes the movie itself, what Cameron said in a
Starlog article, and a manual mentioned in this forum.
Your response? Personal attacks.
If any, everything you just said refers to you, not to me. Given that, I should be ignoring you.
Congratulations
@caffeine4671 You just made the "Ralfy ignore" list with the rest of us
Quote from: kwisatz on Jul 15, 2023, 01:16:50 AMQuote from: caffeine4671 on Jul 15, 2023, 01:09:57 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jul 15, 2023, 01:01:50 AMBuncha Butlerians around here, but you wouldn't have any idea what I'm talking about. >:(
When I see Ralfy, I feel a crusade coming...a Jihad that will spread to every corner of the internet, but I feel helpless to stop it.
I can relate to that
@Local Trouble
Fight me in the Amtal as ChatGPT's Champion!
Reminds me of the time I decided to go back to this thread. Some accused me of trolling, and then changed their views when they saw that I would not back down.
Now, they've devolved to trolling.
Lmfao 😂
Quote from: ralfy on Jul 15, 2023, 03:51:11 AMQuote from: Stitch on Jul 14, 2023, 05:55:16 AMQuote from: ralfy on Jul 14, 2023, 02:32:59 AMAnd then there's working alone, i.e., making their own decisions, but still for the company. He acts on his own volition because he's head of Special Projects, which means he does not need to be prompted by higher ups (the ones who appointed him Director and probably even asked him to be the company representative during Ripley's hearing) to investigate this matter, but he still works for higher ups and the company. That also shows that the claim that the company didn't care doesn't make sense. That's my view, and it's more realistic.
It also helps that you also mention that he "gets a big fat paycheck" and would screw others over a percentage, as the paycheck and assigned percentage would be given by W-Y. In short, he was never working alone, i.e., independently of W-Y.
If that's your view, then I've no idea what the massive argument is, because that's what most people think.
Everybody knows he's employed by W-Y. Everybody knows that he's after a reward from W-Y.
Nobody thinks he's just working for himself, and that he, personally, stands to gain anything by being in personal possession of an alien. What would that do, other than get you killed?
When people are saying that he's working alone, they are meaning that the Company hasn't given him specific orders to do that, and that he is working of his own volition, on the basis that he thinks they have overlooked something of value, and he can get rewarded by being the one to show them so.
It's entirely possible you're just misinterpreting what everyone is saying.
Go over the thread and see for yourself: the counter-argument is that Burke was working independently because W-Y didn't care, and he did so because he wanted all revenues for himself. The evidence given is that Cameron said so, although I can't find it. In addition, to claim that W-Y cared would make it look like a cartoon villain or that it's an "evil" company.
After that, another pointed out another meaning of "working alone," which is that he was not ordered to do so by the company. But that's not needed because if Cameron is right, i.e., he's the head of "special projects" then he doesn't need to be told to do so. If any, that'd be cartoonish: Burke asking the W-Y officials who appointed him whether or not he should do his job.
I feel that you are needlessly convoluting something which should be so simple, and adding hurdles which have simple explanations.
Burke explains that he is on the mission because the settlement has 'a significant dollar value'. Therefore he is there to protect W-Y interests because comms have gone down.
He is always working for the company and that's why he's there. He still has superiors, though, whether or not he's a department director. Also, you have no idea how big the department is, or whether it's a subdivision of another department. Bottom line, Burke is a cog in a big machine, trying to make himself more important, either by reputation or by monetary increase.
Regardless of whether he's working in his own interests independently, or is trying to better the company despite his superiors' attitudes, he is still working of his own volition, and thus is acting alone. He's like a QB calling an audible based on his own opinions, not the coach's.
Your opinion on whether W-Y is cartoonish or not has no real bearing on anything to do with plot. Whether they care about the alien itself, or are just an uncaring company whose protocols get people killed also is basically irrelevant to the plot, because what happens, happens regardless of whether they told Burke to do it or not.
This feels like a lot of text.
SQ
I feel that you are needlessly convoluting something which should be so simple, and adding hurdles which have simple explanations.
EQ
more or less
That's because he's starting from the assumption he's right, and interpreting everything from that viewpoint. Which means convoluting the plot because it 100% doesn't support him.
Quote from: SiL on Jul 15, 2023, 12:37:05 PMThat's because he's starting from the assumption he's right, and interpreting everything from that viewpoint. Which means convoluting the plot because it 100% doesn't support him.
That's sort of the vibe that I got as well.
Quote from: Engineer on Jul 15, 2023, 03:55:36 AMCongratulations @caffeine4671
You just made the "Ralfy ignore" list with the rest of us
Oh, neat! :3 That vibe and this behavior is the reason why I put him on ignore in the first place. Sometimes it's best not to engage.
Yeah i'm a little puzzled that folks still try to meaningfully engage with him.
I think he's fascinating.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 15, 2023, 06:30:28 PMI think he's fascinating.
Lmao
I've been entertained by this for weeks so I think I get your sentiment here
Dear ralfy,
I hope this message finds you well. I've been following the discussions surrounding the motives and actions of the character Burke in the film "Aliens," and I thought it might be beneficial to clarify a few key points.
Carter J. Burke, portrayed by Paul Reiser, indeed works for the Weyland-Yutani corporation, known for its interest in the bio-weapons sector. However, it's important to understand that the actions he took to secure the Alien specimens were his own, rather than a broader company-led conspiracy.
Burke's initial interest likely stemmed from the potential for significant personal gain. He believed that bringing back a specimen of such an extraordinary alien organism would secure him favor with the corporation's bio-weapons division and potentially earn him a big payday. Given his situation, it's reasonable to surmise that his original long-term goal might have been to prompt a bio-weapons division expedition to LV-426, enabling them to extract more specimens and unravel the secrets of the derelict Alien vessel.
However, Burke's plan took a disastrous turn. The destruction of the colony - an outcome Burke hadn't initially planned for - changed the dynamics significantly. With the colony gone, the only available specimens were those the colonists had previously contained. His options narrowing, Burke was forced to shift his approach.
When Ripley, informed by Bishop, confronted Burke about his intention to smuggle the Alien specimens, she also threatened to expose his actions which had led to the colony's destruction. This left Burke in a precarious situation, desperate and cornered. His final, desperate attempt to impregnate Ripley with an Alien served a dual purpose: not only would it provide a means of securing the much-desired specimen, but it would also permanently silence the main threat to his reputation and freedom.
Burke's narrative is a complex interplay of personal ambition, corporate interests, and the dire consequences of unethical choices. It's critical to note that while his motives may align with Weyland-Yutani's interests, his actions are his own, taken independently and without direct sanction from the corporation.
I hope this perspective helps to clarify Burke's role in the narrative of "Aliens" and his relationship to the larger dynamics at play.
Best,
ChatGPT
Quote from: Stitch on Jul 15, 2023, 07:55:16 AMQuote from: ralfy on Jul 15, 2023, 03:51:11 AMQuote from: Stitch on Jul 14, 2023, 05:55:16 AMQuote from: ralfy on Jul 14, 2023, 02:32:59 AMAnd then there's working alone, i.e., making their own decisions, but still for the company. He acts on his own volition because he's head of Special Projects, which means he does not need to be prompted by higher ups (the ones who appointed him Director and probably even asked him to be the company representative during Ripley's hearing) to investigate this matter, but he still works for higher ups and the company. That also shows that the claim that the company didn't care doesn't make sense. That's my view, and it's more realistic.
It also helps that you also mention that he "gets a big fat paycheck" and would screw others over a percentage, as the paycheck and assigned percentage would be given by W-Y. In short, he was never working alone, i.e., independently of W-Y.
If that's your view, then I've no idea what the massive argument is, because that's what most people think.
Everybody knows he's employed by W-Y. Everybody knows that he's after a reward from W-Y.
Nobody thinks he's just working for himself, and that he, personally, stands to gain anything by being in personal possession of an alien. What would that do, other than get you killed?
When people are saying that he's working alone, they are meaning that the Company hasn't given him specific orders to do that, and that he is working of his own volition, on the basis that he thinks they have overlooked something of value, and he can get rewarded by being the one to show them so.
It's entirely possible you're just misinterpreting what everyone is saying.
Go over the thread and see for yourself: the counter-argument is that Burke was working independently because W-Y didn't care, and he did so because he wanted all revenues for himself. The evidence given is that Cameron said so, although I can't find it. In addition, to claim that W-Y cared would make it look like a cartoon villain or that it's an "evil" company.
After that, another pointed out another meaning of "working alone," which is that he was not ordered to do so by the company. But that's not needed because if Cameron is right, i.e., he's the head of "special projects" then he doesn't need to be told to do so. If any, that'd be cartoonish: Burke asking the W-Y officials who appointed him whether or not he should do his job.
I feel that you are needlessly convoluting something which should be so simple, and adding hurdles which have simple explanations.
Burke explains that he is on the mission because the settlement has 'a significant dollar value'. Therefore he is there to protect W-Y interests because comms have gone down.
He is always working for the company and that's why he's there. He still has superiors, though, whether or not he's a department director. Also, you have no idea how big the department is, or whether it's a subdivision of another department. Bottom line, Burke is a cog in a big machine, trying to make himself more important, either by reputation or by monetary increase.
Regardless of whether he's working in his own interests independently, or is trying to better the company despite his superiors' attitudes, he is still working of his own volition, and thus is acting alone. He's like a QB calling an audible based on his own opinions, not the coach's.
Your opinion on whether W-Y is cartoonish or not has no real bearing on anything to do with plot. Whether they care about the alien itself, or are just an uncaring company whose protocols get people killed also is basically irrelevant to the plot, because what happens, happens regardless of whether they told Burke to do it or not.
This feels like a lot of text.
I have to explain things in detail because several still insist that Burke worked alone. That is, W-Y did not care about Ripley's story, so Burke investigated the matter by himself, and because he wanted to receive all potential revenues from the find. In short, he's not even a QB but the whole football team.
It turns out that there are many things in the movie that contradict that, and even Cameron says so: Burke is the head of a "special projects" division of the company, which means he wasn't working alone, i.e., as a private individual.
Finally, this has no bearing on the plot but it has bearing on the context of the plot. In the first movie, it's very clear that W-Y cares; why does it suddenly not care in the second?
Last point: about all this feeling like a lot of text, check out the first post of this thread. It refers to a video with a lot of content, even connecting the movie to feminism and the Reagan years.
Quote from: oduodu on Jul 15, 2023, 10:22:40 AMSQ
I feel that you are needlessly convoluting something which should be so simple, and adding hurdles which have simple explanations.
EQ
more or less
As pointed out earlier, several things in the movie already show that it makes no sense for Burke to work alone: the ownership agreement between W-Y and the Colonial Admin, Ripley, too, making millions because it was the Nostromo crew who discovered the alien ship, and so on, with Cameron even arguing that Burke was head of a "special projects" division of W-Y.
But some who want to insist that Burke worked alone because W-Y didn't care ignore all of that, and now resort to trolling because they can't understand something that's actually simple. One even spams the board, pretending that he's pasting things from an AI site.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jul 15, 2023, 06:25:35 PMYeah i'm a little puzzled that folks still try to meaningfully engage with him.
"Meaningfully".
This isn't rocket science: I've been referring to the movie itself, which is what one does when doing an analysis.
For those who aren't already in the know, I think ralfy's politics may be influencing his argument here. You see, he's a tankie. Which probably means he also subscribes to American diabolism and is therefore ideologically invested in his belief that the big evil US government and the big evil US military were all in cahoots with the big evil corporation, from top to bottom.
Good luck dissuading him.
Some interesting points from this FAQ:
https://www.jamescamerononline.com/AliensFAQ.htm
The allusions to Conrad should be noted, especially "The n***er of the 'Narcissus"" and "Nostromo: A Tale of the Seaboard" (with references to Sulaco). Also, besides Greek mythology, Dante's "Inferno" in light of Acheron. I'll consider this in the future, if only to show that I'm not doing an Ash here. LOL.
The Sulaco is automated, like the Nostromo, but that doesn't help if one's transmitter is damaged or destroyed. I can imagine that the military would have anticipated that, and come up with redundancies and fail-safe mechanisms.
Adding the queen doesn't necessarily mean changing the lifecycle of the aliens but adding what's missing. What's notable, though, is the means by which the eggs on the alien ship were harvested.
The explanation of the infestation complicates an earlier argument in this thread, i.e., the transmitter must have gone down right away, and thus Burke didn't know what happened to the colony. What happened besides Jorden being infected and the colony investigating the alien ship is that they were able to capture several live facehuggers. During all that time, it would have made no sense for the manager not to contact Burke or send a message reporting their find. I think it was also implicit that Burke gave the manager instructions and expected an answer.
With that, Burke's reason for talking to Gorman, using a military unit that appears to specialize in "bug hunts" using "state-of-the-art firepower," and asking Ripley to join, all point to the argument that Burke knew what happened and that the transmitter went down later and not immediately. With that, his excuse to Ripley, that it might simply be a "down transmitter," sounds senseless.
The idea of the alien queen's anatomy explaining how she is able to communicate with others is notable, as well as the ability of aliens to manipulate switches, etc., which is what happened in the first dropship.
The idea of aliens paralyzing victims to cocoon them is notable, too, together with the ability of aliens in their parasitic form to resemble hosts, and specialization among the hive.
The mass charge at the sentry guns implies a hive intelligence.
They only had a few motion trackers. Given Ripley's briefing and the point that military units are prepared, employ redundancies, and so on, then they would have had more of those, too. As it is, they had a lot of firepower in the first APC, and the presence of a second dropship implies that they do come up with redundancies, except that one was on the Sulaco and they lost their transmitter. This gives additional meaning to Cameron's allusions to the Vietnam war. I'll see if I can give more about that in the future.
Bishop is not only the science/tech of the Marines, he's also the XO of the Sulaco. There's no reference in the FAQ about him following orders from Burke, which was shown in the movie. This also reinforces the interesting connections between W-Y and the government.
QuoteThe Sulaco is automated, like the Nostromo, but that doesn't help if one's transmitter is damaged or destroyed. I can imagine that the military would have anticipated that, and come up with redundancies and fail-safe mechanisms.
Nope, no backups, the story does not happen otherwise.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 16, 2023, 02:24:21 AM...You see, he's a tankie. Which probably means he also subscribes to American diabolism and is therefore ideologically invested in his belief that the big evil US government and the big evil US military were all in cahoots with the big evil corporation...
Now I'm really glad I've ignored him. I don't need to listen to another twitter-esque rant of "only America has agency and can do bad or imperialism, those poor, poor, helpless, agency-less totalitarian countries are simply having their hand
forced and are trying to help their people!".
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jul 16, 2023, 12:18:50 PMQuoteThe Sulaco is automated, like the Nostromo, but that doesn't help if one's transmitter is damaged or destroyed. I can imagine that the military would have anticipated that, and come up with redundancies and fail-safe mechanisms.
Nope, no backups, the story does not happen otherwise.
I'd assume that there were transmitters in both the APC and the dropship. It was just shitty luck that both were completely destroyed at the same time.
And complete stupidity that no one was left on the Sulaco as a backup.
It would have been helpful to the story if Gorman was shown insisting that Bishop accompany them to the surface despite Bishop reminding him that he's supposed to remain on board the Sulaco in case something goes wrong. It would have been perfectly in line with Gorman's character at that point.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jul 16, 2023, 12:18:50 PMQuoteThe Sulaco is automated, like the Nostromo, but that doesn't help if one's transmitter is damaged or destroyed. I can imagine that the military would have anticipated that, and come up with redundancies and fail-safe mechanisms.
Nope, no backups, the story does not happen otherwise.
Military forces tend to do the opposite, i.e., have backups (even backup plans), especially when they do such given heavily stocked APCs. In this case, they had redundancies but only for the dropship and armaments. The second dropship could only be retrieved through remote control and the armaments were all placed in the APC, which they also used to deliver the Marines to the reactor and at the same time served as their CP.
This is where Cameron's references to the Vietnam war is helpful:
https://the-take.com/read/is-james-cameronas-aliens-really-an-allegory-of-the-vietnam-war
QuoteCameron has also said that he used details from the Vietnam war to make the military operations feel grounded in realism and closer to the present, rather than futuristic. He told Jean-Marc and Randy Lofficier, "The dialog[ue] itself, the idiom, is pretty much Vietnam era. It's the most contemporary American combat 'warspeak' that I had access to. I studied how soldiers talked in Vietnam, and I took certain specific bits of terminology, and a general sense of how they express themselves, and I used that for the dialogue, to try and make it seem like a realistic sort of military expedition, as opposed to a high tech, futuristic one. I wanted to create more of a sense of realism rather than that of an interesting future."
During that war, the U.S. made it a point to make sure that their injured men were brought in for hospital care within minutes. The view then was that its military was heavily prepared logistically.
According to this, and in light of the Sulaco left unmanned:
https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Conestoga_class_light_assault_starship
the ship could carry more personnel, and is also heavily armed (which is why they could nuke the colony from orbit). Given that, they could have come up with two squads, one for each dropship, and then other personnel remaining on board the ship.
My guess is that they assumed that this would be a routine mission and that only one creature would be involved. But that would not have been unlikely as the colony went offline (apparently, they had no backup transmitters, too) and Ripley's report referred to thousands of eggs in the alien ship. Meanwhile, they would have also assumed that lots of "juicy" colonists' daughters would need saving, which would have meant the need for additional medical personnel and not just one combat medic. In addition, Burke would have more than just Bishop given the alien ship and what his company division needed.
You're saying a lot of 'would have', without anything to back it up, and inferring things that I, and most others, evidently, are not.
Not saying your interpretation of the film isn't valid, but it's not one that most people share.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 16, 2023, 05:47:50 PMI'd assume that there were transmitters in both the APC and the dropship. It was just shitty luck that both were completely destroyed at the same time.
Yeah, Hudson says "The transmitter was on the APC, it's wasted."
The plot doesn't really hinge on the lack of backup, but the lack of communication facilities. You'd shrink the timeframes of the movie, maybe -- but even then you could easily write it to have the events of the film happening while waiting for backup to arrive. The lack of other marines is overstated in its affect on the plot itself.
I mean, the transmitter in the APC was a given, but I'd assume there was also one on the dropship so it could, you know, communicate with the Sulaco and everyone on the ground.
That way, even if the dropship was damaged and couldn't fly, the flight crew could conceivably do exactly what Bishop did with his portable terminal from the colony's uplink.
I'm just guessing that both Ferro and Spunkmeyer were also qualified to remote-pilot a dropship, of course.
I figure Bishop meant "I'm the only one left alive qualified to remote pilot the drop ship"
Quote from: Stitch on Jul 17, 2023, 03:48:04 AMYou're saying a lot of 'would have', without anything to back it up, and inferring things that I, and most others, evidently, are not.
Not saying your interpretation of the film isn't valid, but it's not one that most people share.
If my interpretation is valid, then I'm backing it up, and contrary views are invalid.
Interesting points here, especially Weaver's preference for the director's cut:
https://onthescreenreviews.com/2017/04/26/four-deleted-scenes-from-aliens-1986/
The first scene is important, but what's not mentioned is that it adds to complications for Ripley. It's not so much everything she had was gone, but that she wanted to stop the nightmares. But here's the irony: that could only take place given the mission, and that in turn was triggered by the company using their personnel in the colony in the same way they used the Nostromo crew.
The second scene is also important, but not only because it explains how the colony became infected but because what happened to the colony personnel mirrored what happened to the Nostromo crew. This reinforces the point that the company was strongly involved, as the colony manager received instructions from a top W-Y official (the latter explained by Cameron).
The third scene is helpful because it shows that the creatures are relentless and have some sort of hive intelligence.
Finally, the last scene is pointless and reminds me of similar deleted scenes in the first movie. However, one comment writer says it explains why an explosion takes place after Ripley finds Newt.
QuoteThe second scene is also important, but not only because it explains how the colony became infected but because what happened to the colony personnel mirrored what happened to the Nostromo crew. This reinforces the point that the company was strongly involved, as the colony manager received instructions from a top W-Y official (the latter explained by Cameron).
I say this so boldly because I know he's not reading these replies, but f**king christ how can anyone be this f**king stupid?
The WY official is Burke. And only Burke. How do we know? The film explicitly tells us the order to investigate the derelict was given by him. There's a whole scene about it.
f**king hell.
I wonder if there's anyone left that he hasn't ignored yet. He may just be monologuing at this point.
Probably lmao
Quote from: ralfy on Jul 17, 2023, 11:16:45 PMQuote from: Stitch on Jul 17, 2023, 03:48:04 AMYou're saying a lot of 'would have', without anything to back it up, and inferring things that I, and most others, evidently, are not.
Not saying your interpretation of the film isn't valid, but it's not one that most people share.
If my interpretation is valid, then I'm backing it up, and contrary views are invalid.
Ok, let me rephrase. I'm not saying your interpretation isn't valid for you. It may not be valid for someone else.
Also, you did actually say various things without anything to back them up, other than your own assertions.
Finally, that's not how interpretations work. That's why they're called interpretations.
His interpretation isn't valid because the film directly and repeatedly says it's wrong.
He's entitled to believe whatever he pleases, sure, but that's not the same as whatever he believes being valid.
He's really running the risk of losing any chance of convincing me he's right.
He still fascinates me though.
i just dont get it anymore. foolhardy ness?
love the discussion though. burke is now forever etched in my mind. i just dont get what is the angle? what is left ascertain?
on a personal note i get that companies and governments appoint people to investigate mattters. call it special projects as cameron indicated. these peeople specifically appointed to investigate anything that might potentially be profitable in the long run. companies appoint people to investigate these possibilities. so the people appointed to do so will be greedy son s of bitches. but companies also want plausible deniability so they can blame the investigating person. i think burke was trained and educated to fit the bill. burke has seen others get rich from investigating what appears to be nothing and eventually turned into mega get rich ventures. companies like this because they can turn around and blame said person for withelding info etc.
burke was chosen for this reason. he fit the profile.
companies and sometimes governments like it this way because eventually the ensuing chaos plausible deniability when things blow up in your face court cases for killing inocent people etc in the name of profit.
i think cameron brought this from what i perceive to be a theme carried over from alien. Cameron wrote it very intelligently into the movie.
you could argue that burke was actually working alone or not. point is ultimately the company was the one gaining from it all. as wy knew burke was asking the people to investigate the coordinates given what was to prevent wy from just blocking any replies for help from the record from lv 426 and wipe it from record so that they could see if it turned into a possible money making venture.they could then blame burke if he was over greedy. maybe expecting his greed to serve their own interests as the blame squarely falls on burke for everything amd insurance covers the rest.
speculation
Yeah, it's fairly obvious to me that Burke acted alone. Alone, as in that he knew that what he did was very risky for him and his career, and that if he messed up, the Company would instantly throw him to the wolves. They'd claim that they had no idea of what was going on and that they don't encourage the kind of behavior, procedures and business practices that Burke utilized. In reality the Company does covertly and directly-indirectly encourage exactly the kind of enterprise and operations that Burke endeavored - as long as one doesn't get caught. Had Burke been successful, he'd be thoroughly rewarded with all kinds of promotions, shares, stocks, bonuses, benefits and whatnot once he presented and provided the bio-weapons division and the higher-ups with a Xenomorph specimen or two.
The key here is to keep it quiet, stealthy and under the radar, act aloof and without an obvious agenda, which means that no authorities or major organisations, or competitors, can get hold of what's going on. The less people that know about it, the better (even better - don't let anyone know about it until the plan has been successfully executed!). The Colonial Marine Corps is definitely a major authority and a major organisation. The idea that they (they, as in Company top directors & executives as well as the USCMC's rank-and-file) were in cahoots and willfully risked billions of dollars (the Atmo, the colony, the Sulaco...) - plus potential extraterrestrial specimens and alien artifacts and technologies - by sending in a small squad with no backup, led by an inexperienced Lieutenant and a traumatized seemingly crazy civilian, makes for a fun conspiracy theory and all, but doesn't really make any sense from a fiscal, operational and consequential point of view.
To the USCMC, Hadley's Hope was just another backwater repair mission, at worst another menial "bug hunt". IF there was a conspiracy going on between the Company and the USCMC, it was probably just between Carter J. Burke and some rogue actor or element within the Corps. But there's nothing in the movie even pointing at that. All we have is a greedy overly ambitious little companyman who's willing to literally climb over corpses in order to reach the higher echelons of the corporate ladder & pyramid.
Quote from: Stitch on Jul 18, 2023, 01:38:51 AMQuote from: ralfy on Jul 17, 2023, 11:16:45 PMQuote from: Stitch on Jul 17, 2023, 03:48:04 AMYou're saying a lot of 'would have', without anything to back it up, and inferring things that I, and most others, evidently, are not.
Not saying your interpretation of the film isn't valid, but it's not one that most people share.
If my interpretation is valid, then I'm backing it up, and contrary views are invalid.
Ok, let me rephrase. I'm not saying your interpretation isn't valid for you. It may not be valid for someone else.
Also, you did actually say various things without anything to back them up, other than your own assertions.
Finally, that's not how interpretations work. That's why they're called interpretations.
Yes, but why do you think my interpretation is invalid? Which things weren't backed up? I'll do so in my next post. Also, this should address the idea of how interpretations work.
Those are good points. According to Cameron, Burke was "Special Projects Director for Weyland-Yutani (Space) Corp's Special Services Division," and "oversaw and managed various other aspects of the company's research programs". In short, he was the right representative for W-Y in the hearing, and strongly counters the argument that he was working alone like some cartoon villain, i.e., without knowledge or consent of the company and as merely a private individual.
The same applies to the claim that the company didn't care: it had a bio-weapons division, which would have been one of the main recipients of Burke's efforts. That's the main reason why they chose Burke to represent the company and why Burke ordered Bishop to prepare the facehuggers to be sent to company labs.
According to Burke and the movie, representatives of the ff. were identified in the hearing: W-Y (Burke), the feds, insurers, the ECA, and the ICC (van Leuwen). Of those, the only who would have cared about investigating the landing location given in the flight recorder would have been W-Y and the feds, i.e., if that refers to the equivalent of the national government, which would have meant that the military was under it. The rest would be concerned only if the location was investigated and triggered events that would concern them: for the insurers liabilities concerning the ship and cargo lost, for the ECA the security of the colony, and for the ICC anything that contravenes commercial law, including smuggling of alien organisms.
Finally, the same applies to the claim that Burke worked alone because he would have gotten all revenues. According to Burke's point, the feds (i.e., the government) owned LV-426 and gave W-Y mineral rights in exchange for terraforming the planet. The alien ship would not have been part of the same rights, which is the likely reason Burke rushed, ordering the colony manager to send someone to verify the existence of the alien ship. That would have given W-Y "exclusive rights" to monetize the find.
These show that Burke would not have "owned everything" even if he wanted to as the feds own the ship (because they own LV-426 and granted W-Y only mineral rights). This also explains why, when he was talking to Ripley, argued that they would both come out rich from this, as Ripley would get a percentage of monetization because the Nostromo crew discovered the ship. I think Newt would have also benefited as her parents discovered the ship "again," i.e., because W-Y didn't hear from the Nostromo. And Burke would have gotten one as well, being point man for the company, besides his paycheck as director of a company division tasked with researching on such finds, and probably even a raise and promotion if the company gained even from the alien tech, not to mention a major appreciation in his stock options. LOL.
This leaves us with another weird part of the movie, i.e., they sent only one squad with a greenhorn commander, and included Ripley. Possible reasons:
They were rushing following the drive for exclusive rights, and already made the mistake of sending a wildcatter, and with no instructions to not enter the alien ship. So, they now have to rush and send in a military unit tasked with rescuing "juicy" colonists' daughters but also specialize in "bug hunts" using "state-of-the-art firepower" (in short, not "bug hunts" in the sense of looking for bugs in a system), and more important acquire whatever alien organisms found and send them to company labs via their tech, Bishop.
Why Gorman? I imagine that they needed someone malleable and that would work with W-Y, and that was him. This might also explain why he met with Burke instead of, say, an ECA rep which is in charge of overseeing the colony, although one can argue that several of the colony personnel are W-Y employees.
Why one squad? They were probably assuming that there was only one alien involved, and that it damaged the transmitter, but that the colony was mostly holding on. They didn't imagine that the colonists would be crazy enough to enter the alien ship and end up like Jorden, i.e., if that's what happened.
Why include Ripley? It's possible that they believed that Ripley was not telling them everything about what happened to the Nostromo, and they needed her as an "adviser" to be sure.
Beyond that, the tactical errors remain: they could have sent two ships, with one team securing the alien ship, made sure that there were people on board the ships (as each one could carry more personnel), etc.
I've gained 15 pounds from all the popcorn I've been eating...
a maizing times
or is it corny?
but it is entertaining
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 19, 2023, 05:01:56 AM@Stitch @HuDaFuK You're up ^
Do I have to be? Fine.
Quote from: ralfy on Jul 19, 2023, 02:04:52 AMYes, but why do you think my interpretation is invalid?
Because you are using information in the movie to come to a conclusion. You are then using your own conclusions to back up other hypotheses.
I'm not going to go into your massive wall of text (most of which amounts to speculation, or overly complicated conclusions which ignore Occam's razor), but a lot of your arguments are baseless, and your conclusions seem to be made to fit a predetermined point of view, instead of being based on what is shown.
You have ideas, and use them to prop up your other hypotheses, building up to a house of cards which cannot be stable because it has a faulty foundation.
Quote from: Stitch on Jul 19, 2023, 03:09:16 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jul 19, 2023, 05:01:56 AM@Stitch @HuDaFuK You're up ^
Do I have to be? Fine.
Quote from: ralfy on Jul 19, 2023, 02:04:52 AMYes, but why do you think my interpretation is invalid?
Because you are using information in the movie to come to a conclusion. You are then using your own conclusions to back up other hypotheses.
I'm not going to go into your massive wall of text (most of which amounts to speculation, or overly complicated conclusions which ignore Occam's razor), but a lot of your arguments are baseless, and your conclusions seem to be made to fit a predetermined point of view, instead of being based on what is shown.
You have ideas, and use them to prop up your other hypotheses, building up to a house of cards which cannot be stable because it has a faulty foundation.
Bingo
Quote from: Stitch on Jul 19, 2023, 03:09:16 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jul 19, 2023, 05:01:56 AM@Stitch @HuDaFuK You're up ^
Do I have to be? Fine.
Quote from: ralfy on Jul 19, 2023, 02:04:52 AMYes, but why do you think my interpretation is invalid?
Because you are using information in the movie to come to a conclusion. You are then using your own conclusions to back up other hypotheses.
I'm not going to go into your massive wall of text (most of which amounts to speculation, or overly complicated conclusions which ignore Occam's razor), but a lot of your arguments are baseless, and your conclusions seem to be made to fit a predetermined point of view, instead of being based on what is shown.
You have ideas, and use them to prop up your other hypotheses, building up to a house of cards which cannot be stable because it has a faulty foundation.
^
I wonder if mods should intervene at this stage, not just to save everyone on the forums the pain of having to be subjected to this on every thread over and over, (even those of us who have him on ignore can still see all the interactions) but perhaps as a duty of care to Ralfy (save him from himself) - after over 5 years of this non stop (yes, Ralfy has been repeating this on every thread in every forum - not just here at AvPGalaxy- for over 5 years) I'm starting to suspect that there may indeed be some sort of special needs involved / the guy may need help. The guy repeatedly asks for evidence to counter what he is saying, everyone, and I mean everyone (not one single person on any forum anywhere agrees with him) provides said evidence (which should be obvious), which he completely ignores and then just reiterates what he already said over and over. It's just not normal. No matter how many people tell him it's not normal, he continues. Someone with the intellectual capacity of a goldfish or higher would probably have deduced by now that when 100% of a fandom on every corner of the internet tells you you are wrong, then you are probably wrong. There is no debate or argument to be had, he has made up a completely fictional scenario in his head that doesn't happen in the movie and convinced himself it's fact... he doesn't listen to any points anyone else makes... it's not a discussion, it's just spamming at this point and should be treated as such.
I usually enjoy a good debate, but I have zero tolerance for this clown. The guy is a fool and is ruining what is usually quite interesting topics for everyone. This thread, the sulaco thread, even the egg on sulaco thread..same crap. The forums are just becoming 'The Ralfy Show' and the guy doesn't seem to realise that he is considered a joke... even when saying it outright like this.
(Apologies to mods if this post sounds antagonistic, but I really feel this all needed to be said. We all like to have our theories etc, but I'm sure if I went to the egg on the sulaco thread and posted my same theory 207 times and told everyone else they are wrong and I am right, there has to be a point where a line is drawn, right? We are all well aware of Ralfys take on 'Aliens' now. Enough is enough. It's spam.)
The Egg on the Sulaco thread deserves this fate.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jul 19, 2023, 08:54:34 PMThe Egg on the Sulaco thread deserves this fate.
Its one of my fave threads (well, it was) 😂
Quote from: SiL on Jul 17, 2023, 11:46:06 PMQuoteThe second scene is also important, but not only because it explains how the colony became infected but because what happened to the colony personnel mirrored what happened to the Nostromo crew. This reinforces the point that the company was strongly involved, as the colony manager received instructions from a top W-Y official (the latter explained by Cameron).
I say this so boldly because I know he's not reading these replies, but f**king christ how can anyone be this f**king stupid?
The WY official is Burke. And only Burke. How do we know? The film explicitly tells us the order to investigate the derelict was given by him. There's a whole scene about it.
f**king hell.
He's not on my ignore list so hopefully he sees this! Because this is the ultimate madness of it all. He's making parts of the movie up. He's interpreting a scene where they explicitly tell us Burke ordered them to investigate the Derelict and claiming it was some off screen top company official! His behaviour is actually insane now.
@Jonjamess You'll be on the ignore list after this lol
Well played
Quote from: Stitch on Jul 19, 2023, 03:09:16 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jul 19, 2023, 05:01:56 AM@Stitch @HuDaFuK You're up ^
Do I have to be? Fine.
Quote from: ralfy on Jul 19, 2023, 02:04:52 AMYes, but why do you think my interpretation is invalid?
Because you are using information in the movie to come to a conclusion. You are then using your own conclusions to back up other hypotheses.
I'm not going to go into your massive wall of text (most of which amounts to speculation, or overly complicated conclusions which ignore Occam's razor), but a lot of your arguments are baseless, and your conclusions seem to be made to fit a predetermined point of view, instead of being based on what is shown.
You have ideas, and use them to prop up your other hypotheses, building up to a house of cards which cannot be stable because it has a faulty foundation.
You want interpretation and now argue otherwise. How does that make sense?
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jul 19, 2023, 08:54:34 PMThe Egg on the Sulaco thread deserves this fate.
The fate of reasoning.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jul 19, 2023, 10:04:06 PMQuote from: SiL on Jul 17, 2023, 11:46:06 PMQuoteThe second scene is also important, but not only because it explains how the colony became infected but because what happened to the colony personnel mirrored what happened to the Nostromo crew. This reinforces the point that the company was strongly involved, as the colony manager received instructions from a top W-Y official (the latter explained by Cameron).
I say this so boldly because I know he's not reading these replies, but f**king christ how can anyone be this f**king stupid?
The WY official is Burke. And only Burke. How do we know? The film explicitly tells us the order to investigate the derelict was given by him. There's a whole scene about it.
f**king hell.
He's not on my ignore list so hopefully he sees this! Because this is the ultimate madness of it all. He's making parts of the movie up. He's interpreting a scene where they explicitly tell us Burke ordered them to investigate the Derelict and claiming it was some off screen top company official! His behaviour is actually insane now.
Burke is not working alone but, according to Cameron, head of a special services division. He adds that it's in charge of research.
Why is he not working alone? Because the division is not separate from W-Y but part of it, together with bio-weapons, mining, and terraforming.
In the real world, corporations are made up of divisions in charge of different products and services. The heads of each division are appointed by a CEO, who in turn is hired by a board of directors representing investors who own the company.
In short, Burke is not working for himself but for the company. He was selected by W-Y to represent the company during the hearing. If he decided to contact the colony manager to send someone to investigate the site, he did so as director of that special services division. That means the colony manager, who also works for W-Y, received instructions from Burke, another employee of the same corporation.
Why Burke and not, say, employees from terraforming, mining, and bio-weapons? Because the one in charge of acquiring and researching on alien organisms and tech is Burke's division.
Finally, about the profanities and drama queen antics like referring to me as "insane", there's no need to take this personally. LOL. All I'm doing this is seeing what happened in the movie in light of what happens in the real world, and I think Cameron did the same.
To reinforce that last point:
Cameron grew up during the Vietnam War and made this movie during the Reagan era. By then, more were talking about collusion between the military, industry, and government to profit from war, and the government supported that in order to strengthen the status of the U.S. as a superpower nation. In order to ensure increased funding, it deregulated the economy, allowing the rich to become even richer, especially through financial gambling.
That's why not only the second but the first movie allude to these: giant corporations like W-Y coming up with requirements for personnel to investigate alien phenomena so that it could monetize them, seeing them as expendable, forming things like bio-weapons divisions with the military being the obvious major client, and the Nostromo crew getting their share of the profits, the Jordens as wildcatters, and Burke as part of a research division of the same company. The presence of a bio-weapons division alludes to the same military industrial complex.
That's why the first post of this thread refers to an analysis of the movie in light of the Reagan years, with other topics, like feminism, also discussed.
What I did was connect that analysis with the content of the movie, and now added what Cameron said about Burke and others, as some kept insisting that according to Cameron Burke worked alone. It turns out that there was some confusion about that: either he worked alone (i.e., the company didn't care) or he worked alone only in the sense that he was head of a division that's tasked to researching on such finds (according to what Cameron said).
I support the latter. But in response to that, I'm referred to as "insane" and even said to see the movie in a "cartoonish" way. That is, it's absurd for a company to be "evil"; rather, it didn't care, and Burke was working solely as a private individual and had the power to do so.
I used to think the same way, too, but I was watching shows like "Wacky Races" then. Hence, the reference to Dick Dastardly twirling his mustache.
Last point: I think the trolling will not only continue but will grow worse, so I'd rather keep the ignore function in place. I'll reconsider if it stops and forum members become mature about this.
I think it's fair to say Ralfy has a bit of confirmation bias here...
He's starting with a conclusion then working backwards to cherry-pick or misinterpret scenes/details to fit his preconceived conclusion.
Is it possible that ralfy is really just a misunderstood genius? :o
all over the internet?
ooohkaaaay....
He's just absolutely not getting it, or I believe he's deliberately not addressing the point out of stubbornness.
As has been mentioned 3 billion times nobody is saying Burke doesn't work for WY. We are saying the movie explicitly tells us Burke uses his position in WY to act 'independently' from what they have specifically asked him to do.
He uses his WY position to get a place on the team going to investigate the loss of contact with a colony. His reasons are that WY has a financial interest in the colony. WY as a company does not think Aliens have overrun the colony, again this is explicitly implied due to the fact they allow the USCM to investigate rather than do it themselves.
Burke believes Ripley might be telling the truth, INDEPENDENTLY of WY as a company (who don't believe her). So he siezes that opportunity to tag along, telling his employers he should go as they have large sums of money invested in the colony and its in their best interests.
He does NOT tell his employers he is going there to try to get them an Alien. He doesn't tell them this because they don't believe the Alien is real and they would likely deny his request to be part of the team or at least challenge his integrity which in turn puts his job at risk. This is what we mean by working alone, WY has no knowledge of his personal intentions for going.
Nobody I'm the company has ordered Burke to go get them an Alien. Nobody in the company has instructed the colonists to go to the Derelict (only Burke does this, again without informing his employees or at least keeping them properly in the loop).
Why would Burke be so worried that Ripley was going to expose him if he had a huge multi billion influential company behind him? Because he is solely responsible for 157 colonist deaths (he has no scapegoat, he can't testify the company made him do it etc). Because they didn't!
I'm really becoming confused as to what is so hard for Ralfy to understand regarding this? It's not complicated.
Because if he agrees with that, he'd be wrong.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jul 20, 2023, 07:56:19 AMHe's just absolutely not getting it, or I believe he's deliberately not addressing the point out of stubbornness.
As has been mentioned 3 billion times nobody is saying Burke doesn't work for WY. We are saying the movie explicitly tells us Burke uses his position in WY to act 'independently' from what they have specifically asked him to do.
He uses his WY position to get a place on the team going to investigate the loss of contact with a colony. His reasons are that WY has a financial interest in the colony. WY as a company does not think Aliens have overrun the colony, again this is explicitly implied due to the fact they allow the USCM to investigate rather than do it themselves.
Burke believes Ripley might be telling the truth, INDEPENDENTLY of WY as a company (who don't believe her). So he siezes that opportunity to tag along, telling his employers he should go as they have large sums of money invested in the colony and its in their best interests.
He does NOT tell his employers he is going there to try to get them an Alien. He doesn't tell them this because they don't believe the Alien is real and they would likely deny his request to be part of the team or at least challenge his integrity which in turn puts his job at risk. This is what we mean by working alone, WY has no knowledge of his personal intentions for going.
Nobody I'm the company has ordered Burke to go get them an Alien. Nobody in the company has instructed the colonists to go to the Derelict (only Burke does this, again without informing his employees or at least keeping them properly in the loop).
Why would Burke be so worried that Ripley was going to expose him if he had a huge multi billion influential company behind him? Because he is solely responsible for 157 colonist deaths (he has no scapegoat, he can't testify the company made him do it etc). Because they didn't!
I'm really becoming confused as to what is so hard for Ralfy to understand regarding this? It's not complicated.
I think the single most obvious factor that Ralfy glosses over to suit his argument is that if Burke is retrieving an Alien on company orders as Ralfy would have you believe, then how the f**k does Burke hope to SELL it to the company? 😂 You don't buy what you already own.
"Hey, we got an alien through ICC quarantine as we planned, let's buy it from ourselves".
Muppet.
someone please make a gif of someone eating popcorn. head back on the couch throwing popcorn into the air hoping it will fall in his mouth.
maybe ralfy is a genius. i'm in the mood for buying the novelisation of aliens and reading it 5 times.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jul 20, 2023, 11:24:24 AMQuote from: Jonjamess on Jul 20, 2023, 07:56:19 AMHe's just absolutely not getting it, or I believe he's deliberately not addressing the point out of stubbornness.
As has been mentioned 3 billion times nobody is saying Burke doesn't work for WY. We are saying the movie explicitly tells us Burke uses his position in WY to act 'independently' from what they have specifically asked him to do.
He uses his WY position to get a place on the team going to investigate the loss of contact with a colony. His reasons are that WY has a financial interest in the colony. WY as a company does not think Aliens have overrun the colony, again this is explicitly implied due to the fact they allow the USCM to investigate rather than do it themselves.
Burke believes Ripley might be telling the truth, INDEPENDENTLY of WY as a company (who don't believe her). So he siezes that opportunity to tag along, telling his employers he should go as they have large sums of money invested in the colony and its in their best interests.
He does NOT tell his employers he is going there to try to get them an Alien. He doesn't tell them this because they don't believe the Alien is real and they would likely deny his request to be part of the team or at least challenge his integrity which in turn puts his job at risk. This is what we mean by working alone, WY has no knowledge of his personal intentions for going.
Nobody I'm the company has ordered Burke to go get them an Alien. Nobody in the company has instructed the colonists to go to the Derelict (only Burke does this, again without informing his employees or at least keeping them properly in the loop).
Why would Burke be so worried that Ripley was going to expose him if he had a huge multi billion influential company behind him? Because he is solely responsible for 157 colonist deaths (he has no scapegoat, he can't testify the company made him do it etc). Because they didn't!
I'm really becoming confused as to what is so hard for Ralfy to understand regarding this? It's not complicated.
I think the single most obvious factor that Ralfy glosses over to suit his argument is that if Burke is retrieving an Alien on company orders as Ralfy would have you believe, then how the f**k does Burke hope to SELL it to the company? 😂 You don't buy what you already own.
"Hey, we got an alien through ICC quarantine as we planned, let's buy it from ourselves".
Muppet.
Stop making sense and being logical.
(https://gifdb.com/images/high/john-stewart-eating-popcorn-a59ybd6glpwxnuxd.webp)
I mean, IF the Company suspected there were actual alien organisms running around Hadley's Hope, ALIEN 3 shows us what the response from the Company would have looked like. Tons of scientists, heavily armed private commandos in padded armor meant to deal with wild hostile organisms, recording equipment, nets, cages and probably other equipment and weapons specifically deployed to be used in order to capture and contain their prized Xenomorph specimen.
Again, there's nothing in the actual movie that even imples that W-Y higher-ups were in on Burke's plan, or that they instructed Burke what to do once he arrived at LV-426. Nothing in the actual movie that implies that highly ranked USCMC officers were in on whatever it was that Burke and/or the Company were planning on doing.
Now, if any of the future Alien installations confirm your interpretations on-screen, then yeah, congratulations - your hunches and and thoughts are now the official explanation to what lead up to the Acheron operation, its execution and aftermath. But until then, your interpretation of Aliens is just another interpretation - an interpretation that is not backed up by what we see in the actual movie.
Quote from: S.E.B. on Jul 20, 2023, 06:07:36 PMI mean, IF the Company suspected there were actual alien organisms running around Hadley's Hope, ALIEN 3 shows us what the response from the Company would have looked like. Tons of scientists, heavily armed private commandos in padded armor meant to deal with wild hostile organisms, recording equipment, nets, cages and probably other equipment and weapons specifically deployed to be used in order to capture and contain their prized Xenomorph specimen.
Again, there's nothing in the actual movie that even imples that W-Y higher-ups were in on Burke's plan, or that they instructed Burke what to do once he arrived at LV-426. Nothing in the actual movie that implies that highly ranked USCMC officers were in on whatever it was that Burke and/or the Company were planning on doing.
Now, if any of the future Alien installations confirm your interpretations on-screen, then yeah, congratulations - your hunches and and thoughts are now the official explanation to what lead up to the Acheron operation, its execution and aftermath. But until then, your interpretation of Aliens is just another interpretation - an interpretation that is not backed up by what we see in the actual movie.
OMG thank you. Exactly this. Once they realised the Alien was real they were all over it. But Aliens (the movie explicitly tells you they didn't think at that moment it was real).
Otherwise like you say they would have sent their own ship to Hadley's Hope. I have said this before but Ralfy won't care!
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jul 20, 2023, 11:24:24 AMQuote from: Jonjamess on Jul 20, 2023, 07:56:19 AMHe's just absolutely not getting it, or I believe he's deliberately not addressing the point out of stubbornness.
As has been mentioned 3 billion times nobody is saying Burke doesn't work for WY. We are saying the movie explicitly tells us Burke uses his position in WY to act 'independently' from what they have specifically asked him to do.
He uses his WY position to get a place on the team going to investigate the loss of contact with a colony. His reasons are that WY has a financial interest in the colony. WY as a company does not think Aliens have overrun the colony, again this is explicitly implied due to the fact they allow the USCM to investigate rather than do it themselves.
Burke believes Ripley might be telling the truth, INDEPENDENTLY of WY as a company (who don't believe her). So he siezes that opportunity to tag along, telling his employers he should go as they have large sums of money invested in the colony and its in their best interests.
He does NOT tell his employers he is going there to try to get them an Alien. He doesn't tell them this because they don't believe the Alien is real and they would likely deny his request to be part of the team or at least challenge his integrity which in turn puts his job at risk. This is what we mean by working alone, WY has no knowledge of his personal intentions for going.
Nobody I'm the company has ordered Burke to go get them an Alien. Nobody in the company has instructed the colonists to go to the Derelict (only Burke does this, again without informing his employees or at least keeping them properly in the loop).
Why would Burke be so worried that Ripley was going to expose him if he had a huge multi billion influential company behind him? Because he is solely responsible for 157 colonist deaths (he has no scapegoat, he can't testify the company made him do it etc). Because they didn't!
I'm really becoming confused as to what is so hard for Ralfy to understand regarding this? It's not complicated.
I think the single most obvious factor that Ralfy glosses over to suit his argument is that if Burke is retrieving an Alien on company orders as Ralfy would have you believe, then how the f**k does Burke hope to SELL it to the company? 😂 You don't buy what you already own.
"Hey, we got an alien through ICC quarantine as we planned, let's buy it from ourselves".
Muppet.
But we've (I've) told him 10 times Burke wasn't trying to sell the Alien! He was just trying to get a promotion, favour and a massive paycheck.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jul 20, 2023, 07:56:19 AMHe's just absolutely not getting it, or I believe he's deliberately not addressing the point out of stubbornness.
As has been mentioned 3 billion times nobody is saying Burke doesn't work for WY. We are saying the movie explicitly tells us Burke uses his position in WY to act 'independently' from what they have specifically asked him to do.
He uses his WY position to get a place on the team going to investigate the loss of contact with a colony. His reasons are that WY has a financial interest in the colony. WY as a company does not think Aliens have overrun the colony, again this is explicitly implied due to the fact they allow the USCM to investigate rather than do it themselves.
Burke believes Ripley might be telling the truth, INDEPENDENTLY of WY as a company (who don't believe her). So he siezes that opportunity to tag along, telling his employers he should go as they have large sums of money invested in the colony and its in their best interests.
He does NOT tell his employers he is going there to try to get them an Alien. He doesn't tell them this because they don't believe the Alien is real and they would likely deny his request to be part of the team or at least challenge his integrity which in turn puts his job at risk. This is what we mean by working alone, WY has no knowledge of his personal intentions for going.
Nobody I'm the company has ordered Burke to go get them an Alien. Nobody in the company has instructed the colonists to go to the Derelict (only Burke does this, again without informing his employees or at least keeping them properly in the loop).
Why would Burke be so worried that Ripley was going to expose him if he had a huge multi billion influential company behind him? Because he is solely responsible for 157 colonist deaths (he has no scapegoat, he can't testify the company made him do it etc). Because they didn't!
I'm really becoming confused as to what is so hard for Ralfy to understand regarding this? It's not complicated.
He works for W-Y, according to Cameron.
He attends the inquiry not as a private individual but as a company representative.
He contacts the colony manager, who's an employee of W-Y, as head of the research division and not as a private individual.
He joins the military rescue mission not as a private individual but representing W-Y, which owns the colony facilities, and for which the colony manager, the Jorden couple, and others are employees.
When he argues against nuking the colony facilities, he does so as a company official, not as a private individual.
When he orders Bishop to prepare the facehuggers for company labs, he does so as a head of the research division of W-Y, not as a private individual who can manage to borrow company labs for his personal use.
The argument that contrarians were making wasn't that Burke was acting independently as head of the research division of W-Y. Rather, he was working as a private individual (not as a company official) who would receive all revenues.
Every point you made repeats mine and goes against what contrarians say.
Quote from: oduodu on Jul 20, 2023, 12:53:07 PMsomeone please make a gif of someone eating popcorn. head back on the couch throwing popcorn into the air hoping it will fall in his mouth.
maybe ralfy is a genius. i'm in the mood for buying the novelisation of aliens and reading it 5 times.
This isn't rocket science, LOL. The points I made come from the movie as well as Cameron's commentary.
Maybe one can come up with other interpretations based on other content of the franchise, but that would be off-topic given the thread title. I thought it best to stick to the first two movies and commentaries on those.
Quote from: S.E.B. on Jul 20, 2023, 06:07:36 PMI mean, IF the Company suspected there were actual alien organisms running around Hadley's Hope, ALIEN 3 shows us what the response from the Company would have looked like. Tons of scientists, heavily armed private commandos in padded armor meant to deal with wild hostile organisms, recording equipment, nets, cages and probably other equipment and weapons specifically deployed to be used in order to capture and contain their prized Xenomorph specimen.
Again, there's nothing in the actual movie that even imples that W-Y higher-ups were in on Burke's plan, or that they instructed Burke what to do once he arrived at LV-426. Nothing in the actual movie that implies that highly ranked USCMC officers were in on whatever it was that Burke and/or the Company were planning on doing.
Now, if any of the future Alien installations confirm your interpretations on-screen, then yeah, congratulations - your hunches and and thoughts are now the official explanation to what lead up to the Acheron operation, its execution and aftermath. But until then, your interpretation of Aliens is just another interpretation - an interpretation that is not backed up by what we see in the actual movie.
Likely Burke was chosen as head of the research division of W-Y because he was the right man for the job. In which case, that would explain why they didn't need to know, especially if something goes wrong. LOL.
In the real world, it's part of initiative and being "pro-active." That's why the OP's reference to the Reagan years was more than appropriate, i.e., I don't think Ronnie knew about what Ollie was doing until it was too late, but Ollie and others were tasks specifically with acting independently, and following only a general strategy given by the heads.
In this case, the general strategy was to monetize alien finds. Why? Because the bio-weapons division needs them. So go out there and make us money, young man, and you'll make a lot, too. We'll handle financing and admin, while legal figures out how to get those pesky ICC officials out of the way.
My point is that when you interpret this movie, you do so given what has been taking place in reality. That's why when you look at the special order in the first movie, Ash secretly implementing them, not only Burke and the Jordens but even Ripley assured of percentages from monetization, the formation of a bio-weapons division that allows business to profit and the military to gain, a point man who's also head of research, etc., then you can't help but go beyond the Dick Dastardly storyline of individuals working alone and companies being neutral, and see what happened during the Vietnam war (which Cameron alluded to in the movie), the Reagan years (with Irangate, etc.), and the military industrial complex. There are even more if you view the video shared in the first post of this thread.
Given that, why didn't W-Y and even the military prepare? I'm guessing that they anticipated that only one alien was involved, i.e., the colonists wouldn't be foolish enough to return to the alien ship. In short, what happened to the colony is similar to what happened to the Nostromo crew, except that the colony has more pesonnel and are also likely armed (i.e., it's also administered by the ECA, which would have had internal security). In which case, sending one squad and a tech would have looked appropriate.
What about W-Y? Since it's a mission that's under military jurisdiction, then it would have not been likely for W-Y to send scientists and techs (according to one wiki, the Sulaco could have probably carried up to 90 personnel). That would have meant sending only Burke (the head of the division tasked to research on alien organisms and tech, among others) to check on the status of the colony personnel who are W-Y employees plus the colony facilities, which are owned by W-Y. (The Marines, in turn, would be working in this case for the ECA, to ensure the safety of all colonists, employees or not.)
But why a unit specializing in "bug hunts" using "state-of-the-art firepower"? It's logical to do so to capture one alien, which they probably assumed was all there was. This might also explain why several of the Marines were overconfident and complacent, seeing this as just another "routine" mission.
Thus, everyone could do what they needed to do: the Marines secure the safety of the colonists by killing the alien and protecting W-Y facilities, Burke acquiring organisms for company labs, and ECA having its colony secure.
That leaves us with Ripley. Why did they need her to come along? It's possible that they thought something worse could have happened or that Ripley didn't tell them everything about the aliens or that Burke could find a way to appease her by showing that they could come out rich from this discovery. There are many points to consider about that and scenes from the movie (which were already discussed) showing that it was pointless to include her or that Burke was mistaken about bringing her along, but I'll discuss those next time.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jul 20, 2023, 07:43:23 PMQuote from: S.E.B. on Jul 20, 2023, 06:07:36 PMI mean, IF the Company suspected there were actual alien organisms running around Hadley's Hope, ALIEN 3 shows us what the response from the Company would have looked like. Tons of scientists, heavily armed private commandos in padded armor meant to deal with wild hostile organisms, recording equipment, nets, cages and probably other equipment and weapons specifically deployed to be used in order to capture and contain their prized Xenomorph specimen.
Again, there's nothing in the actual movie that even imples that W-Y higher-ups were in on Burke's plan, or that they instructed Burke what to do once he arrived at LV-426. Nothing in the actual movie that implies that highly ranked USCMC officers were in on whatever it was that Burke and/or the Company were planning on doing.
Now, if any of the future Alien installations confirm your interpretations on-screen, then yeah, congratulations - your hunches and and thoughts are now the official explanation to what lead up to the Acheron operation, its execution and aftermath. But until then, your interpretation of Aliens is just another interpretation - an interpretation that is not backed up by what we see in the actual movie.
OMG thank you. Exactly this. Once they realised the Alien was real they were all over it. But Aliens (the movie explicitly tells you they didn't think at that moment it was real).
Otherwise like you say they would have sent their own ship to Hadley's Hope. I have said this before but Ralfy won't care!
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jul 20, 2023, 11:24:24 AMQuote from: Jonjamess on Jul 20, 2023, 07:56:19 AMHe's just absolutely not getting it, or I believe he's deliberately not addressing the point out of stubbornness.
As has been mentioned 3 billion times nobody is saying Burke doesn't work for WY. We are saying the movie explicitly tells us Burke uses his position in WY to act 'independently' from what they have specifically asked him to do.
He uses his WY position to get a place on the team going to investigate the loss of contact with a colony. His reasons are that WY has a financial interest in the colony. WY as a company does not think Aliens have overrun the colony, again this is explicitly implied due to the fact they allow the USCM to investigate rather than do it themselves.
Burke believes Ripley might be telling the truth, INDEPENDENTLY of WY as a company (who don't believe her). So he siezes that opportunity to tag along, telling his employers he should go as they have large sums of money invested in the colony and its in their best interests.
He does NOT tell his employers he is going there to try to get them an Alien. He doesn't tell them this because they don't believe the Alien is real and they would likely deny his request to be part of the team or at least challenge his integrity which in turn puts his job at risk. This is what we mean by working alone, WY has no knowledge of his personal intentions for going.
Nobody I'm the company has ordered Burke to go get them an Alien. Nobody in the company has instructed the colonists to go to the Derelict (only Burke does this, again without informing his employees or at least keeping them properly in the loop).
Why would Burke be so worried that Ripley was going to expose him if he had a huge multi billion influential company behind him? Because he is solely responsible for 157 colonist deaths (he has no scapegoat, he can't testify the company made him do it etc). Because they didn't!
I'm really becoming confused as to what is so hard for Ralfy to understand regarding this? It's not complicated.
I think the single most obvious factor that Ralfy glosses over to suit his argument is that if Burke is retrieving an Alien on company orders as Ralfy would have you believe, then how the f**k does Burke hope to SELL it to the company? 😂 You don't buy what you already own.
"Hey, we got an alien through ICC quarantine as we planned, let's buy it from ourselves".
Muppet.
But we've (I've) told him 10 times Burke wasn't trying to sell the Alien! He was just trying to get a promotion, favour and a massive paycheck.
Just because W-Y wasn't still sure there were aliens means they didn't care. Why else would they have a bio-weapons division?
They could have sent their own ship, but didn't need to because the Marines did. Also, who is the main customer of the bio-weapons division if not the military? Who provides security to a colony administered by ECA if not the same?
Finally, you don't get a promotion and a massive paycheck out of the blue. You do so by "selling" the alien.
I've no idea anymore what your trying to do. It's clearly trolling at this point. You are point blank ignoring everything I and others say. Your points don't even have any points.
You're just repeating yourself over and over again with points that while some are correct have no contradiction to what we are all saying.
Next time you reply to myself or anyone else address the points we are making instead of going off on a completely irrelevant tangent.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jul 21, 2023, 10:08:51 AMI've no idea anymore what your trying to do. It's clearly trolling at this point. You are point blank ignoring everything I and others say. Your points don't even have any points.
You're just repeating yourself over and over again with points that while some are correct have no contradiction to what we are all saying.
Next time you reply to myself or anyone else address the points we are making instead of going off on a completely irrelevant tangent.
Ive said it before and I'll say it again; If EVERYONE just puts him on ignore, he can sit and repeat himself into oblivion. If nobody engages with him, he has nobody to spam. When he is no longer getting any attention, or receiving replies, he will either go away, or continue repeating to himself like he has for last five years...the power is in our hands...just hit the 'ignore' button, lol. Don't feed the troll.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jul 21, 2023, 10:08:51 AMI've no idea anymore what your trying to do. It's clearly trolling at this point. You are point blank ignoring everything I and others say. Your points don't even have any points.
You're just repeating yourself over and over again with points that while some are correct have no contradiction to what we are all saying.
Next time you reply to myself or anyone else address the points we are making instead of going off on a completely irrelevant tangent.
I'm not ignoring but countering every point you say. Why do you think my messages are so detailed?
I'm repeating myself because you make the same wrong points, so I give the same detailed responses which you can't counter.
Finally, what completely irrelevant tangents? Point them out, and I'll show you why they're not so.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jul 21, 2023, 03:12:37 PMQuote from: Jonjamess on Jul 21, 2023, 10:08:51 AMI've no idea anymore what your trying to do. It's clearly trolling at this point. You are point blank ignoring everything I and others say. Your points don't even have any points.
You're just repeating yourself over and over again with points that while some are correct have no contradiction to what we are all saying.
Next time you reply to myself or anyone else address the points we are making instead of going off on a completely irrelevant tangent.
Ive said it before and I'll say it again; If EVERYONE just puts him on ignore, he can sit and repeat himself into oblivion. If nobody engages with him, he has nobody to spam. When he is no longer getting any attention, or receiving replies, he will either go away, or continue repeating to himself like he has for last five years...the power is in our hands...just hit the 'ignore' button, lol. Don't feed the troll.
Lol. Lmao.
(https://i.imgur.com/yJRKHWe.png)
You know you want to click "Show me the post." 8)
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 22, 2023, 02:39:32 AMYou know you want to click "Show me the post." 8)
Honestly? The thought of him putting a ton of effort into writing long posts, only to have no one read or respond to them is way more hilarious to me.
Quote from: ralfy on Jul 21, 2023, 11:45:14 PMQuote from: Jonjamess on Jul 21, 2023, 10:08:51 AMI've no idea anymore what your trying to do. It's clearly trolling at this point. You are point blank ignoring everything I and others say. Your points don't even have any points.
You're just repeating yourself over and over again with points that while some are correct have no contradiction to what we are all saying.
Next time you reply to myself or anyone else address the points we are making instead of going off on a completely irrelevant tangent.
I'm not ignoring but countering every point you say. Why do you think my messages are so detailed?
I'm repeating myself because you make the same wrong points, so I give the same detailed responses which you can't counter.
Finally, what completely irrelevant tangents? Point them out, and I'll show you why they're not so.
No, you aren't countering any points on making. You're just repeating again and again Burke works for WY and what division which nobody is even disputing! It's like having a debate with a child who is just saying words that don't make sense for the sake of saying words.
Sorry, YOU are incorrect. Nobody else is agreeing with you, most have put you on ignore. You believe logic suggests you are likely to be in the right when 80% of other people who have seen the same movie hundreds of times disagree with you? How does that work then? Are you suggesting the rest of us don't understand the movie and only you do?
It's hilarious you think WY were desperate to get an Alien but ignored a colony situated right next to the Derelict for 20 plus years and then sent some average Marines to go investigate those 20 years later and couldn't be bothered to do it themselves. It's just bizarre where you are trying to get your logic from.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jul 22, 2023, 01:37:45 AMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jul 21, 2023, 03:12:37 PMQuote from: Jonjamess on Jul 21, 2023, 10:08:51 AMI've no idea anymore what your trying to do. It's clearly trolling at this point. You are point blank ignoring everything I and others say. Your points don't even have any points.
You're just repeating yourself over and over again with points that while some are correct have no contradiction to what we are all saying.
Next time you reply to myself or anyone else address the points we are making instead of going off on a completely irrelevant tangent.
Ive said it before and I'll say it again; If EVERYONE just puts him on ignore, he can sit and repeat himself into oblivion. If nobody engages with him, he has nobody to spam. When he is no longer getting any attention, or receiving replies, he will either go away, or continue repeating to himself like he has for last five years...the power is in our hands...just hit the 'ignore' button, lol. Don't feed the troll.
Lol. Lmao.
https://i.imgur.com/yJRKHWe.png
Lmao, I didn't know you could rename users on the forum 🤣
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jul 22, 2023, 10:50:32 AMQuote from: Some Tankie Muppet on Jul 21, 2023, 11:45:14 PM[unintelligible strings of characters that resemble language somewhat]
No, you aren't countering any points on making. You're just repeating again and again Burke works for WY and what division which nobody is even disputing! It's like having a debate with a child who is just saying words that don't make sense for the sake of saying words.
Sorry, YOU are incorrect. Nobody else is agreeing with you, most have put you on ignore. You believe logic suggests you are likely to be in the right when 80% of other people who have seen the same movie hundreds of times disagree with you? How does that work then? Are you suggesting the rest of us don't understand the movie and only you do?
It's hilarious you think WY were desperate to get an Alien but ignored a colony situated right next to the Derelict for 20 plus years and then sent some average Marines to go investigate those 20 years later and couldn't be bothered to do it themselves. It's just bizarre where you are trying to get your logic from.
Who are you replying to? ::)
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jul 22, 2023, 01:54:31 PMQuote from: caffeine4671 on Jul 22, 2023, 01:37:45 AMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jul 21, 2023, 03:12:37 PMQuote from: Jonjamess on Jul 21, 2023, 10:08:51 AMI've no idea anymore what your trying to do. It's clearly trolling at this point. You are point blank ignoring everything I and others say. Your points don't even have any points.
You're just repeating yourself over and over again with points that while some are correct have no contradiction to what we are all saying.
Next time you reply to myself or anyone else address the points we are making instead of going off on a completely irrelevant tangent.
Ive said it before and I'll say it again; If EVERYONE just puts him on ignore, he can sit and repeat himself into oblivion. If nobody engages with him, he has nobody to spam. When he is no longer getting any attention, or receiving replies, he will either go away, or continue repeating to himself like he has for last five years...the power is in our hands...just hit the 'ignore' button, lol. Don't feed the troll.
Lol. Lmao.
https://i.imgur.com/yJRKHWe.png
Lmao, I didn't know you could rename users on the forum 🤣
Alas, you can't...but you
can edit the raw html text on a webpage and screenshot it just fine~ ;)
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jul 22, 2023, 10:50:32 AMQuote from: ralfy on Jul 21, 2023, 11:45:14 PMQuote from: Jonjamess on Jul 21, 2023, 10:08:51 AMI've no idea anymore what your trying to do. It's clearly trolling at this point. You are point blank ignoring everything I and others say. Your points don't even have any points.
You're just repeating yourself over and over again with points that while some are correct have no contradiction to what we are all saying.
Next time you reply to myself or anyone else address the points we are making instead of going off on a completely irrelevant tangent.
I'm not ignoring but countering every point you say. Why do you think my messages are so detailed?
I'm repeating myself because you make the same wrong points, so I give the same detailed responses which you can't counter.
Finally, what completely irrelevant tangents? Point them out, and I'll show you why they're not so.
No, you aren't countering any points on making. You're just repeating again and again Burke works for WY and what division which nobody is even disputing! It's like having a debate with a child who is just saying words that don't make sense for the sake of saying words.
Sorry, YOU are incorrect. Nobody else is agreeing with you, most have put you on ignore. You believe logic suggests you are likely to be in the right when 80% of other people who have seen the same movie hundreds of times disagree with you? How does that work then? Are you suggesting the rest of us don't understand the movie and only you do?
It's hilarious you think WY were desperate to get an Alien but ignored a colony situated right next to the Derelict for 20 plus years and then sent some average Marines to go investigate those 20 years later and couldn't be bothered to do it themselves. It's just bizarre where you are trying to get your logic from.
Explain how my words don't make sense.
How does your second point make sense in a thread that needs to employ logic because it's an analysis of the movie?
I didn't argue that W-Y didn't ignore the colony on the rock but the opposite.
Also, they didn't send "average Marines," as Gorman and Burke pointed out to Ripley, but those who specialize in taking down alien organisms. That's why even the Marines took it as a matter-of-fact when they noted that it's going to be "another bug hunt."
QuoteHudson: Is this going to be a stand-up fight, Sir, on another bug-hunt?
Gorman: All we know is that there's still no contact with the colony and that a xenomorph may be involved.
Frost: A what?
Hicks: It's a bug-hunt.
In short, they assumed that it's only one xenomorph, and that unlike the Nostromo crew they could easily neutralize it with the firepower they carried.
According to Cameron, Burke was head of the research division of W-Y. That means he was in charge of what the company should do, and I'm guessing that he thought the same way as the Marines: it's only one xenomorph that's involved because he assumed that the colonists would not be foolish enough to return to the alien ship, which is why he decided to join them without the need to bring more armed men, scientists, and techs. He figured that he would do that after the Marines kill the single xenomorph, secure the colony, and repair the transmitter. In short, W-Y did "bother," but they did it through their research division, first. After that, the reverse-engineering and bio-weapons divisions would "bother" next.
With that, we have the following problems:
Why did Burke and Gorman want Ripley to join them? I'm guessing that they thought that she would give them additional details on neutralizing the alien. Notice, too, that Gorman goes against what he told Ripley,
QuoteGorman: You wouldn't be going in with the troops. I can guarantee your safety.
That is, she did go with the troops.
In addition, it looks he was also a replacement, as Vasquez did not know his background. Before that, he was meeting with Burke. Is this something worth considering, or is it just another way to express the complacency and arrogance of the Marines?
What was going on between the time Jorden was infected and the time the transmitter went down? Did the colony manager contact Burke or anyone (ECA, for example) after Jordan was infected, together with several others? (The Marines found several dead and living facehuggers, with the live ones removed but which killed their hosts.)
One can argue that they didn't, but that would be unrealistic (a colony with managers and local government administrations, and not one bothers to contact W-Y or even ECA and report what happened to Jorden?), so it's possible that they did so at least until a xenomorph, which means Burke would still assume that only one xenomorph is involved. But even if there were two, one can argue that the squad was good enough to handle both.
Here's one view that goes against the cartoon interpretation of the movie, i.e., Burke is some sort of Dick Dastardly.
https://rapidtransmission.blogspot.com/2019/01/aliens.html
QuoteAlien 2 criticizes the results of the military-industrial complex in the United States. The alien problem is created artificially by the Weyland-Yutani Corporation. They want to further study the Xenomorph XX121 species, regardless of the harm they cause to their employees. So, Wey-Yu creates a colony on LV-426, the planet playing host to the crash-landed derelict ship that Ripley and her crew encountered in the first Alien movie.
A family on the new colony is sent to the crash site, lambs to the slaughter, really. The family makes first contact and quickly meets their demise, save for Newt. Eventually, the rest of the colony is summarily killed by the not-so-friendly Xenomorphs. Conflict created, in come the soldiers, complete with a futuristic, tank-like vehicle and hi-tech weaponry—the sentry guns are particularly awesome. All of this gear is a direct reflection of our own MCI. In the US, the military-industrial complex requires constant war and a constant upgrading of weapons technology, including miniaturization, automation, lethality, and speed.
The company doesn't develop an economy because it wants to investigate the alien ship. Rather, it does so to terra-form it and prepare it for mining operations. According to Cameron, the distress beacon malfunctioned because of volcanic activity, which is why they never knew about the alien ship until they retrieved the flight recorder from the Nostromo lifeboat (also, according to Cameron).
Given that, the rest of the points in this analysis are notable because they point to the same MIC which viewers intent on seeing the movie as similar to another episode of "Wacky Races" won't realize: people like Burke don't work alone, i.e., as private individuals. He works for W-Y and is head of a research division that supports, among others, a bio-weapons division. He also receives things like paychecks for his work, and receives more if he takes the initiative. They're seen as "go-getters" in business, or people who are "pro-active." They don't need to wait for the W-Y CEO to tell them what to do because as heads of divisions they are tasked with working independently but still following the general strategy enshrined in the mission-vision statement (LOL) of the company, but in case one wants a short cut, it's maximization of profit. And in Burke's case, supply the bio-weapons division with potential bio-weapons. As for the rest--the Nostromo Crew, the Jordens, etc.--it's percentages and early retirement.
That's why the cartoon view of Burke working alone falls apart, with some resorting to revising that and meaning that he worked for the company but still worked independently. Of course, that's what heads of divisions in companies do.
But in this case, it's not just a company but an industry that's intertwined with the military (and government) as one complex: one profits from selling advanced weaponry to the other, and the other using such weaponry to its advantage and costs passed on as public debt.
Which is what we see in the current MIC, and which is why the Reagan administration, among others, was mentioned in the OP of this thread. Put simply, far from the cartoon storyline of individual villains and neutral companies and even governments, we see a mirror of reality, where individuals are part of and are tools of a complex of industry and government colluding with each other.
More on that in light of a blue collar ethos in a future post.
(https://y.yarn.co/8730d5c7-4173-415e-bb38-b99dc79f8c78_text.gif)
I feel like we're tipping into bullying territory here.
We can just put him on ignore and move on.
Maybe we can have him analyze Alien 3 next.
We could also just let it die.....
But that doesn't seem like it'll happen, so ChatGPT will now explain to us why
Alien 3 is a metaphor for worker's exploitation.
QuoteAlien 3, directed by David Fincher and released in 1992, can be interpreted as a film about worker's exploitation within a dystopian, corporate-controlled universe. This interpretation draws upon several key elements and themes present in the movie.
1. Corporate dominance: Throughout the Alien franchise, the Weyland-Yutani Corporation is portrayed as a powerful and unscrupulous entity. In Alien 3, we see the corporation's influence extend even to a remote prison planet (Fury 161), where they maintain control over both the inmates and the prison staff. The corporation's primary concern is the retrieval of the xenomorph alien specimen, even if it means sacrificing the lives of the workers on the planet.
2. Disposable labor: The prisoners on Fury 161 are a prime example of an exploited workforce. These inmates are essentially forced labor, working under harsh conditions without any rights or hope for a better future. The corporation sees them as expendable resources, disregarding their well-being and treating them as mere pawns in their pursuit of the alien organism.
3. Lack of agency: The workers on Fury 161 have little to no say in the decisions that affect their lives. The arrival of Ripley and the xenomorph crash-landing on the planet further exacerbates their exploitation. The prison's administrative staff, represented by Superintendent Andrews, prioritizes the corporation's interests over the safety and autonomy of the workers.
4. Themes of sacrifice and martyrdom: As the film progresses, it becomes clear that the workers on Fury 161 are essentially sacrificing themselves to protect the rest of humanity from the alien threat. Their lives are deemed less valuable than the potential financial gains of weaponizing the alien organism. This self-sacrifice echoes the struggles of real-world workers who endure dangerous conditions and poor treatment in the name of profit for large corporations.
5. Powerlessness against authority: The prisoners' lack of power and influence over their circumstances mirrors the power dynamics seen in exploitative labor systems. They are trapped in a remote facility, far from any support or oversight, at the mercy of the corporation and its representatives. This powerlessness highlights the vulnerability of workers when pitted against immense corporate forces.
6. Alien as a metaphor: The xenomorph itself can be seen as a metaphor for the consequences of unchecked corporate greed and exploitation. It represents an uncontrollable, destructive force that wreaks havoc on the workers, symbolizing the negative impact of capitalist exploitation on the labor force and society at large.
In conclusion, Alien 3 can be interpreted as a critique of worker's exploitation within a dystopian future where corporations hold immense power and control over labor. By portraying the prisoners as disposable and voiceless, the film sheds light on the darker aspects of corporate dominance and the price that workers may pay when their value is reduced to mere profit margins.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jul 23, 2023, 11:56:02 AMhttps://y.yarn.co/8730d5c7-4173-415e-bb38-b99dc79f8c78_text.gif
Can't give any counterarguments or relevant points, so devolve to memes.
From a 2014 analysis:
https://themetaplex.com/reviews/2014/aliens-movie-review-and-analysis
QuoteSequels, even good sequels, fall into a trap of just reshaping the original instead of building upon it. Based on a 90-page screenplay written before he ever directed The Terminator, Cameron only needed the first fifteen minutes to shake the rules of the universe. For instance, the themes and symbols of the first Alien are reversed. Where the first film grappled with deeply Freudian ideas like the male fear of pregnancy and rape, Aliens is a meditation on maternity. The plot could be summarized in one simple sentence: Two matriarchs go to war. There is a deeply symbolic subtext to the entire film that becomes instantly palpable once you become aware it exists. Much has also been made of the film's powerful anti-war leaning. Cameron toys with American iconography, from the sci-fi jet-copters that have the cockpit of a military chopper to the commandos covered in green-brown camouflage like they're storming a jungle. There's also the basic premise, which can be seen as blatantly anti-imperialistic. For the Weyland Corporation (military industrial complex) to successfully gain control of another territory, LV-426 (Vietnam), they have to amend, revise, and prevail over the natural order of the area they are invading. In the film, this is done through terraforming (invading). The natural environment is so hostile to their unwanted presence that the air (Vietnamese) kills them.
Freudian interpretations look forced; the Lovecraftian interpretation of cosmic horror looks better.
"Pregnancy and rape" also took place in the second movie via the colonists.
The idea of matriarchs going to war, though, is notable, i.e., Ripley vs. the queen.
The anti-war view, though, is most notable, because it goes against the Dick Dastardly view of the movie, i.e., the only villains are Burke and the aliens, and at one point, even Ripley couldn't tell which one was worse. LOL. Instead, we have multiple villains: Burke, the aliens, the company that supposedly doesn't care, and the military as part of the government. Why's that? Because according to various commentaries and Cameron himself, the movie essentially refers to the Vietnam war, and thus the military industrial complex.
Here's how it works: Eisenhower warned about collusion between the rich (industry) and the military that would lead to proxy wars, i.e., the U.S. would not only become aggressive but even create wars through false flags, but using weaker countries to do the fighting or as battlefields, from which the rich would profit through arms sales plus exploitation of countries affected, and the military through strategic advantages. And since the military is under the government, then the government would obviously gain, too, which is why some refer to the phenomenon as the military-industrial-congressional complex.
True enough, what Eisenhower said took place: the U.S. is the most warmongering country in the world. With over 800 military installations worldwide, it has engaged in multiple proxy wars, supported various dictators and armed criminal groups, sold armaments to both sides, manipulates elections, instigates coups and revolutions, and employs onerous foreign and economic policies like structural adjustment. And the main goal is to protect the interests of the 10 pct of Americans who own 70 pct of the nation's total wealth.
This is clearly seen in the Vietnam war, and I'll give more details on that in the future. For now, Cameron effectively alludes to that in the movie, as the arrogant Marines with "state-of-the-art firepower" get their "a---- kicked" by the aliens. In this case, though, the writer adds the point of anti-imperialism, with W-Y and the ECA trying to "colonize" the rock (although it has no indigenous lifeforms, as pointed out by the ECA rep).
The ones who provide that firepower are the defense industry, which in this case is represented by a mega-corporation, as it deals with mining and terra-forming, too. And it's a faceless organization with one-dimensional men who go through the motions as part of their mission, to earn and get it over with, or to profit: the Nostromo crew referring to full shares in discoveries, the colony manager doing his job and following Burke's orders, Burke as head of the research division and who's doing his job but also a go-getter, Ripley who's part of the same space trucker crew who is also offered a percentage of earnings from the find, the Jordens who are wildcatters and, like Ripley and the rest, blue-collar and contractual workers who want to hit it big and retire early, the the Marines who are referred to as grunts, with several complaining about "another bug-hunt" and wanting to finish their "tour". Meanwhile, there are the bureaucrats who don't care about anything other than their functions (like the board of inquiry in the movie), synths who interestingly work like humans (and referring not only to Bishop but also to Ash), and civilians caught in the middle, like Newt.
In short, just as some argue that reality is sometimes "just like the movies," this movie is "just like reality," and not like a cartoon.
@ralfy You are taking the bug hunt thing too literally. Nope the Marines are not specialist Xenomorph killers.
If you are to take anything from "it's a bug hunt" the average person would assume this is indigenous "pest" type lifeforms that present little threat. The Marines act like a "bug hunt" is a boring routine assignment.
The WY representative even states "and found something never once recorded in over 100 surveyed worlds".
Nobody has come across a creature like the Alien before, the Marines are clearly freaked out when they encounter them.
So simply, no the Marines are not specialist Alien killers! At least not the type of Alien life that presents serious threat to life.
You also keep mentioning Aucturians like they are an Alien humanoid. This is never once stated, it comes across more like they are colonists with gender reassignment (lady boys or similar). There's no mention that they are aliens and it doesn't even fit the context of the movie. The movie is about scary aliens, why would you mention "friendly" aliens in a throw away comment at the beginning of the movie, it would be counter productive to the tone the movie is trying to create. Cameron's intention is clearly not that the marines have had sexual encounters with aliens.
If anything, the marines in the movie come across as the slackers who can't be trusted to do anything other than janitorial work, hence why Hudson asks if it's going to be a stand up fight, or another bug hunt. The implication being they're glorified pest control.
That's also why Gorman is put in charge, even with his limited experience. It's not supposed to be dangerous. It's supposed to be effectively a training mission.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jul 24, 2023, 12:22:43 PM@ralfy
You are taking the bug hunt thing too literally. Nope the Marines are not specialist Xenomorph killers.
If you are to take anything from "it's a bug hunt" the average person would assume this is indigenous "pest" type lifeforms that present little threat. The Marines act like a "bug hunt" is a boring routine assignment.
The WY representative even states "and found something never once recorded in over 100 surveyed worlds".
Nobody has come across a creature like the Alien before, the Marines are clearly freaked out when they encounter them.
So simply, no the Marines are not specialist Alien killers! At least not the type of Alien life that presents serious threat to life.
You also keep mentioning Aucturians like they are an Alien humanoid. This is never once stated, it comes across more like they are colonists with gender reassignment (lady boys or similar). There's no mention that they are aliens and it doesn't even fit the context of the movie. The movie is about scary aliens, why would you mention "friendly" aliens in a throw away comment at the beginning of the movie, it would be counter productive to the tone the movie is trying to create. Cameron's intention is clearly not that the marines have had sexual encounters with aliens.
Yes, someone writing for
Ars Technica (I think) pointed that out: it's supposed to be a play on a "snipe hunt". In addition, the "bug stomper" logo for the first dropship might have not been what the unit specialized in as the second dropship is said to have a "smart ass" logo.
The problem is that you don't use the type of firepower they had in the movie to take down pests. I'd imagine tech with pest control. Given that and the firepower involved (sentry guns, grenades, flame units, shotguns, battle rifles with grenade launchers, heavy machine guns, nerve gas, APCs with heavy guns, and dropships with missiles), I think they have been hunting much bigger game. The problem, in this place, is as Gorman pointed out, they thought they were dealing with only one xenomorph. That's probably they weren't so concerned, especially given the point that the squad was just sent out right after completing one mission and was complaining about not having a break.
Next, I think it was the ECA rep who talked about not seeing anything like what Ripley describes, and adds that on the rock they saw nothing more than virus.
I don't remember seeing the Marines freak out, but I remember them retreating and shooting back, with Gorman temporarily catatonic. I think they didn't exactly see the alien for the first time, as any brief, like that of Ripley, would have contained at least an artist's depiction of the creature and even the facehugger given Ripley's description. This might explain why even Hicks managed to make fun of Burke when one facehugger tried to "kiss" him. LOL.
In which case, the Marines are obviously not specialists in killing this specific xenomorph but have may encountered similar, but probably more stupid, which is why they were very overconflident for this mission. This also explains why later Hudson tells Burke that they just got their "asses kicked" and that they need to nuke the aliens from orbit.
Finally, some refer to Arcturians as colonists, and you might be right, as the context involves "juicy colonists' daughters," but according to a manual they are a humanoid extraterrestial species:
https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Arcturian
So that argument can go either way. See also
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/website/articles/arcturians/
I don't know if you would consider Rico Ross' point.
Quote from: Stitch on Jul 24, 2023, 01:23:22 PMIf anything, the marines in the movie come across as the slackers who can't be trusted to do anything other than janitorial work, hence why Hudson asks if it's going to be a stand up fight, or another bug hunt. The implication being they're glorified pest control.
That's also why Gorman is put in charge, even with his limited experience. It's not supposed to be dangerous. It's supposed to be effectively a training mission.
The catch is that they went down heavily armed, and their movement upon entering the compound was the opposite of how they acted in the hanger and even in the dropship, and this even before they opened the compound doors. It was when they saw the damaged walls around them that they realized that it was going to be a stand up fight instead of a bug hunt.
I don't know why Gorman was put in charge, but it looks like they were not expecting a lot of trouble. As Gorman put it, following Ripley's brief, "a xenomorph may be involved," which is also what happened in the first movie. As they were heavily armed and trained, then they would have had a greater chance of taking down the creature than the Nostromo crew did.
In short, it wasn't so much a training mission but a bug hunt, and given the size of the creature given Ripley's report, they were expecting at least a fight from something much larger than a bug.
Some interesting points here:
"The throwaway line in Aliens that spawned decades of confusion"
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/08/the-throwaway-line-in-aliens-that-spawned-decades-of-confusion/
I don't remember it spawning decades of confusion, as a xenomorph is what the writer describes: an alien life form. The reason for not using the word, then, is weird.
The writer is right in referring to the title of the movie and what viewers were expecting, and this is notable because it may have shown the complacency of those involved and which the viewers may have been anticipating: they were expecting a bug hunt and not a stand-up fight; that is, involving just one alien and not dozens.
Side note: I heard that that's what got producers excited, as Cameron was said to have sold them the idea by writing the word "Alien" on a board and then just adding "s" at the end. If it was already exciting to have one alien, which is what happened in the movie, imagine having loads of fun with a lot more of them. LOL.
The point that the Marines probably did both bug hunts and stand-up fights given Hudson's query sounds right: that is, it's not so much a training mission as just another bug hunt, in contrast to a stand-up fight, which he prefers. Only, I think they were expecting only one alien and not a lot of them.
The point about Burke asking if these are the creatures described in Ripley's report is odd, but I think it's because Burke was wondering how one creature could engage in such mayhem (as the damage done by the same in the first movie--and likely described in detail by Ripley in her report, i.e., about the hole created by acid from the facehugger--was not significant compared to what the Marines saw when they entered the compound). It did not occur to them that there were many, which is why they wondered later why the colonists were huddled together underneath the reactor.
The reference to the point about quarantines is notable, i.e., the perception that Ripley was also like others in the second movie because in the first it looked like she was more concerned about protecting herself and the rest of the crew than allowing Kane and the other members of the expedition back into the ship. The same goes for the writer's reference to the manual which implies that there are several sophisticated alien life forms even as the board of inquiry implicitly shows the opposite.
Finally, the writer points out that Burke, following Cameron's explanation is a special projects director of a research division of the company. This implies that he wasn't working alone. In fact, every point in the movie leads to that: Burke explains to Ripley that the board consists of representatives for the company, the insurer, the federal government, the ECA (which is in charge of administering colonies), and the ICC (which is in charge of interstellar commerce and rules governing that, such as quarantine protocols), and Burke is not only the representative of W-Y but given Cameron's point the perfect representative for it. There are also the points that according to Burke W-Y has a bio-weapons division which provides goods to the military and is dependent on his research division for material to exploit, Burke's point about Ripley becoming rich because she would get a percentage of earnings from such exploitation (following the contracts that the Nostromo crew members signed), and so on.
Yeah I'm just going to ignore him now. Absolutely unhealthily obsessed with repeating himself and claiming the whole company was in on it (100's of times).
While ignoring everything else anyone is saying. And then going into another rant.
And someone else mentioned it will go into bullying territory. They are right. I've no idea who I'm talking to and no idea of their circumstances or background so it's best to stop.
This reminds me of MacReady's monologue from The Thing:
QuoteI know I'm human. And if you were all these things, then you'd just attack me right now, so some of you are still human. This thing doesn't want to show itself, it wants to hide inside an imitation. It'll fight if it has to, but it's vulnerable out in the open. If it takes us over, then it has no more enemies, nobody left to kill it. And then it's won.
I think ralfy's won.
Quote from: Jonjamess on Jul 25, 2023, 07:28:52 PMYeah I'm just going to ignore him now. Absolutely unhealthily obsessed with repeating himself and claiming the whole company was in on it (100's of times).
While ignoring everything else anyone is saying. And then going into another rant.
And someone else mentioned it will go into bullying territory. They are right. I've no idea who I'm talking to and no idea of their circumstances or background so it's best to stop.
The only rants that I'm getting are from forum members like this.
As for bullying, read the thread posts very carefully: I was the only being bullied, and in response to that I've been responding with detailed and rational posts. At one point I even answered back humorously by stating that it's just a movie. My only reason for posting here is that I'm a fan of the franchise, and AFAIK this is supposed to be a forum for fans of the same. At least that's what I implied when I responded to one who was surprised that there's on-going discussion for an old movie. FWIW, the franchise itself is is over four decades old.
Since I've received no trolling from him, then I won't ignore him for now, but I'll try to respond to every post made. As for those who resorted to pretending to use AI to come up with senseless responses, among others, you can forget about it.
"Pretending to use AI" :laugh:
From
https://nummtheory.blogspot.com/2022/05/aliens-1986.html
QuoteThis is understandable, since ALIEN's weakest point is its grand conspiracy, whose architects somehow know enough about the stranded E.T. vessel that (a) they want an alien specimen of their very own, and (b) to get one, they set up the Nostromo to voyage to the site of the vessel and to play Judas goat-- which proves to be a mistake, since one of the goats, Ellen Ripley (Sigourney Weaver), manages to slay the "lion." Ripley survives the destruction of the ravening alien and the Nostromo, submerged for 57 years in shuttle-cryosleep, until a salvage crew finds her and returns her to Earth. If there are any of the conspirators still rattling around, they're more than willing to stay hidden in the shadows, while Ripley takes the heat for blowing up a company-owned vessel, allegedly to destroy a hostile xenomorph.
I don't think the Nostromo was set to retrieve an alien specimen. Rather, the computer was programmed to change the course of the ship to investigate phenomena such as distress beacons, and the crew was reminded that they had to investigate such because it was in their contracts. In return, they would receive a "full share" of whatever is monetized from what's discovered; the deal was similar to that given to the Jordens, according to the colony manager.
The conspiracy lay in the the special order discovered by Ripley, and also programmed into Ash, which made retrieval the top priority and any other order, like delivering minerals, rescinded. In addition, crew and company assets were considered expendable.
From there, how does this affect what happened during the inquiry in the second movie? Given the ability of computers to do things like navigate a large ship for long periods and maintain the same while the crew is in hypersleep, then one can safely assume that a flight recorder by that time could record more than just the fact that a ship landed and took off, including the landing location. It would have also recorded the fact that the computer changed the ship course and due to a distress beacon. This alone would have partially validated Ripley's story; investigating the landing location would have done the rest.
This is important for the last point given in what was quoted because it would have not made sense for the company to blame Ripley for the loss of the ship, as they don't get anything from insurers by doing so. If any, the insurance company would have been the only one happy with the conclusion of the case as it would have shown that
force majeure was not involved.
More important, there's the little matter of a bio-weapons division, which is stated in the movie, as well as Burke's position in the company, as explained by Cameron in a commentary. These would have made the earlier claim in the thread that the company didn't care and coveniently "forgot" about its special order, implying that it's no longer in the business of retrieving alien organisms and tech and exploiting them, sound absurd.
Here's another analysis to consider, and similar to the analysis given in the first post which started the whole thread:
https://unclefishbits.com/is-it-woke-capitalism-greed-labor-exploitation-sex-and-gender-politics-in-the-alien-universe/
QuoteIt doesn't make sense people could be fans of this universe and miss the subtext or pretty obvious narrative and what it's trying to say. Did they watch the films? All 6 films and the Alien: Isolation game are EXPLICITLY about the military-industrial complex using human lives as pawns. It's about greed. It's about capitalism. It's about labor exploitation (THE SHARES? Riiiiiiight). It's about sex and gender politics. It's right in your face.
I'll probably respond to issues about sex and gender politics and the movie in the future, but the one that I'm more interested in is the idea of capitalism.
The reference is spot-on and echoes my argument: the franchise itself is an effectively critical view of the military industrial complex, and also explains why the OP refers to the Reagan administration. Here's how it works:
Given the idea of a corporatocracy, large, private corporations rule the world and not governments or "the people". This happens because they have lots of money, and doing so brings with it a lot of financial power. Not only do private individuals depend on them for paychecks and returns in investment, even the government and the military depend on them for funding and goods and services made available by their businesses.
In the U.S., this is known as the "military industrial complex". Eisenhower warned about this back in the 1950s, and it continues to this day: the defense industry works with the military, and both profit. The defense industry sells armaments to the government, which pays for it by passing on the cost to the public as debt. The armaments are then used by the military which is ordered by the government to "restore peace and democracy" in one place or another, and in turn allowing the U.S. to ake control of that place and using it for economic and military advantages. Some have also called it the "military-industrial-congressional complex" as wars involve congressional approval.
But it goes beyond that: if there's more peace, then both don't earn. Thus, there has to be "forever wars," and even proxy wars, where the U.S. and military rivals use weaker countries as battlefields so that they won't confront each other directly, as that can lead to things like nuclear war.
In addition, such places are manipulated through bribes, secretly funding rebel and opposition groups, and onerous foreign policies to topple regimes that aren't friendly to the U.S. and set up the opposite, which can be used for the benefit of the rich and powerful in such and their counterparts in the U.S.
One of those examples is the Vietnam war, for which the Pentagon Papers revealed that the U.S. had intentions much earlier to make sure that regimes in Indochina work in favor of the U.S., so that the latter could take advantage of natural resources in the region plus set up military installations to counter Soviet rivals.
In addition, the Vietnam war also became the venue not only for weapons of mass destruction but also things like chemical weapons, and generally armaments that could be tested on Vietnamese, including civilians.
This is notable because Cameron himself pointed out that the movie itself is partly a critique of the Vietnam war. What's also important is that it's also a critique of the military industrial complex underlying that war. That's why the same complex can be seen in the movie: Burke heading the research division of a very large corporation, the same having a bio-weapons division plus armaments manufacture (several point out that the armaments used by the marines were made by W-Y), and "grunts" in different forms (the Marines, Ripley the Nostromo crew, the Jordens, and the colonists) all working for and being exploited by the same company, and implicitly the government not surprisingly taking the company's side (hence, the ICC and ECA dismissing Ripley's story as part of it involves her insistence that W-Y was responsible for what happened to her, her crewmates, and even their ship and cargo.
Finally, that's why the cartoon interpretation that Burke was some sort of Boris Badenov, working alone in exchange for fully profiting from the find, and secretly manipulating not only Ripley but even the colonists and the Marines as some sort of private citizen supervillain, doesn't make sense.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 26, 2023, 01:54:52 AM"Pretending to use AI" :laugh:
I bet ChatGPT is offended by that assertion
Quote from: Engineer on Jul 26, 2023, 05:08:57 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jul 26, 2023, 01:54:52 AM"Pretending to use AI" :laugh:
Uber ChatGPT is offended by that assertion
I suspect he thinks that everyone is as willing and able to churn out walls of text as he is, so I must have written all those posts myself and inexplicably signed them as ChatGPT for some reason.
Quote from: ralfy on Jul 26, 2023, 01:48:42 AMAs for those who resorted to pretending to use AI to come up with senseless responses, among others, you can forget about it.
Don't think he's pretending mate.
I've always suspected that Local might be a bot. The new asshole model they are putting out. ;)
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 26, 2023, 05:15:33 AMQuote from: Engineer on Jul 26, 2023, 05:08:57 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jul 26, 2023, 01:54:52 AM"Pretending to use AI" :laugh:
Uber ChatGPT is offended by that assertion
I suspect he thinks that everyone is as willing and able to churn out walls of text as he is, so I must have written all those posts myself and inexplicably signed them as ChatGPT for some reason.
Damn! You quoted me faster than I could "quick edit" my typo lmao
Quote from: Engineer on Jul 26, 2023, 03:34:02 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jul 26, 2023, 05:15:33 AMQuote from: Engineer on Jul 26, 2023, 05:08:57 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jul 26, 2023, 01:54:52 AM"Pretending to use AI" :laugh:
Uber ChatGPT is offended by that assertion
I suspect he thinks that everyone is as willing and able to churn out walls of text as he is, so I must have written all those posts myself and inexplicably signed them as ChatGPT for some reason.
Damn! You quoted me faster than I could "quick edit" my typo lmao
That's because I'm a bot. The latest asshole model.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 26, 2023, 03:58:29 PMQuote from: Engineer on Jul 26, 2023, 03:34:02 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jul 26, 2023, 05:15:33 AMQuote from: Engineer on Jul 26, 2023, 05:08:57 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jul 26, 2023, 01:54:52 AM"Pretending to use AI" :laugh:
Uber ChatGPT is offended by that assertion
I suspect he thinks that everyone is as willing and able to churn out walls of text as he is, so I must have written all those posts myself and inexplicably signed them as ChatGPT for some reason.
Damn! You quoted me faster than I could "quick edit" my typo lmao
That's because I'm a bot. The latest asshole model.
Perhaps you should change your handle to ChatGP-Auton
https://www.tasteofcinema.com/2020/10-vietnam-war-movies-not-set-in-vietnam/2/
QuoteOne of the design specifics Cameron insisted upon for the marines was their Vietnam War aesthetic. This included the detail on uniforms, 'Nam aircraft inspired vehicles and gallows-humour graffiti scrawled on armour and weaponry. Cameron even cast a real Vietnam War veteran as the marines' squad sergeant. These details alone don't necessarily make Aliens a Vietnam War movie, but they are a good indication of the director's intentions. What does, however, is having a cocky, technologically-superior military force in a hostile environment underestimating, then losing to, a threat they don't understand – an analogy that preoccupies the rollercoaster action of most of the film.
This is in response to the belief that the Marines were nothing more than glorified pest control.
The U.S. did not consider the same about the Viet Cong and the Viet Minh (the North Vietnamese regulars). That reminds me of a scene from one movie that was released just a year after
Aliens came out, with the squad leader explaining to his newly arrived men why they should respect the enemy and refer to him as "Nathaniel Victor":
(Warning: NSFW due to profanities and racist terms.)
Marines, you will refer to him as 'Xenomorph'. Meet him twice and survive and you will refer to him as "Mr. Xenomorph'." LOL.
Kidding aside, when you look at the weapons that the Marines use (maybe we can go into detail with that in the future) and the tactics that they employ, then you realize that they appear to trained more for than just pest control. I'm not a military expert, but from the movies and TV shows that I've seen (like this old one called
Combat and a newer one called
Tour of Duty), they look like standard maneuvers that vary depending on circumstances. In this case, as they expect a large, armored xenomorph in an enclosed environment, then they send in a point man with a tracking device following by the machine gunner (I think during WW2, the U.S. had someone carrying a BAR), and one for each of the two subgroups that make up the squad (I think in some movies and TV shows, it would be similar to a small platoon, as they had two machine gunners). I think the two groups would sweep the main corridors, then break up into pairs and check each room, and then set up a command post near the lab after making sure that the area is clear.
Given that, it definitely looks like they were not into pest control, but it also looks like they were expecting only one alien and colonists surviving, which is why they didn't set up a CP outside the complex, didn't bring in a medical team, and took up only a fraction of the passenger capacity that the
Sulaco could handle.
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/72KxHeD.jpg)