Has AvPR improved wih age?

[SpreadEagleBeagle]

Both movies end with the character(s) fulfilling their goal and going to sleep peacefully. That's not cherry picking. Ripley wanted to survive in Alien, she got it. She wanted to survive and protect Newt, she got it. Both films end with the characters safe and satisfied; family or not, that's just dressing.

Like I said, cherry picking...

Now we're just repeating ourselves. You purposely miss my points and arguments and thus I don't buy into your points and arguments because they never meet. It's like we're just discussing out if prestige 

Yeah, and you always march out the same arguments and I march out the same counterarguments. That's why you think it's repetitive.

At least we can agree that it's repetitive.

No I didn't.

Um:

Um?

This. This is what I'm talking about. This is cherry picking, this is melodrama, this is bias, this is dumb.

Alien wasn't some midnight movie. It wasn't an underground sleeper hit. It wasn't a video nasty. It was a 20th Century Fox production, made because sci-fi and horror were "in" and they thought they could make a buck from it. It's a mainstream horror film from the 70s every bit as much as Aliens was a mainstream action/horror from the 80s. They were both designed to attract large audiences and make money.

I never said that wasn't case, SiL.

There is no "grade", no "type". They were both made to make their audiences happy. Their audiences were largely the same people, but trends had changed in the 80s. If Alien had been made 10 years later, it would have been a very different film, even with the same people.

Of course it would've been different. Directors change, directing change, trends change etc. ALIEN came out the right time. However, ALIENS tried to hold onto the illusion of realism, in an 80s kind of way, most of the movie, but dropped the ball badly in the end. The last 20+ minutes are inexcusable and broke the contract so to speak, be it a 70s sci-fi horror movie or an 80s sic-fi action movie. It broke the contract of realism that it tried to establish through most of the movie and thus cheapened it.

Then you haven't read many of my posts, because I've done it plenty in the past. Everyone here can vouch for that. Hell, Colin f**king Strause, co-director of AvP: Requiem, could tell you I don't like Aliens, because he personally derided me for the fact on this Forum.

I've read many of your posts SiL, but I must have missed your Colin Strause posts. I'll check them out. Anyways, you never acknowledge ALIENS's weaknesses and flaws when discussing it with me, but you are more than happy whipping and slapping A3 for its flaws and weaknesses as if I'm not aware of them. And in order to enforce your arguments you usually bring up dry comparisons between ALIEN and ALIENS, because you know I'm a fan of the former.

[mace-in-the-face]

f**k no! Are you high?

[Kel G 426]

You sweat through the movie and never enter action hero territory as you do in ALIENS (Rambo Ripley cleaning up the Hive, and Powerloader vs. Queen Godzilla fight, and Ripley climbing up a ladder with a Powerloader and alien queen hanging on her foot while being sucked into space).

The first film had Ripley charging into danger, torching would-be eggs with a flame thrower, spearing the alien after stripping to her panties, and blasting away from a nuclear explosion.  The only difference in the second film is there were more monsters to deal with.

Comparing the queen to Godzilla is way off.  She's not that much bigger than a regular alien (she can fit inside an elevator), and obviously not as heavy as you seem to think she is.  The ladder thing is a non-issue.

You keep writing off the Powerloader battle as cheesy or whatever but have yet to explain what makes it so.  Again, you can't compare it to Godzilla.  The tension and execution of that scene is miles and miles above anything seen in a Toho film.

[SpreadEagleBeagle]

The first film had Ripley charging into danger, torching would-be eggs with a flame thrower, spearing the alien after stripping to her panties, and blasting away from a nuclear explosion.  The only difference in the second film is there were more monsters to deal with.

She never charged into danger. She was always on the run, dodging and fleeing, panicking and in primal survival mode. She never entered the belly of the beast single handed to face IT face-to-face.

She was in a spacesuit, scared shitless. She strapped herself into a chair before pushing the vent buttons. In ALIENS she was being all one-liner cool, fighting the big bad boss alien in a mech suit. Then she managed to climb up the ladder - while being pulled into space, with a huge alien and a sic-fi forklift linked to her foot - that IS cheesy.

Comparing the queen to Godzilla is way off.  She's not that much bigger than a regular alien (she can fit inside an elevator), and obviously not as heavy as you seem to think she is.  The ladder thing is a non-issue.

How is that in any kind of way a non-issue?

Also, the Queen is about double the total size of a regular Alien Adult.

You keep writing off the Powerloader battle as cheesy or whatever but have yet to explain what makes it so.  Again, you can't compare it to Godzilla.  The tension and execution of that scene is miles and miles above anything seen in a Toho film.

I have explained it a billion times. I'm more interested to hear what makes the powerloader fight not cheesy, because it is cheesy and out of character compared to ALIEN and the first two thirds of ALIENS.

[Corporal Hicks]

How was she more or less hopeful than in the other films?  That's what I don't get.  In Alan Dean Foster's original version, Newt lives and book Ripley does everything movie Ripley does.

You've not read that version and can't attest to how well it works. Can I just try to get the point your trying to make because I'm not 100% sure what you're trying to say. All I've managed so far is that Hicks and Newt's death was cheap and done to avoid paying them?

Personally I'd be very interested in reading that original version. Whilst I do love Alien 3 and the hopeless feel of it, I would be very interested in seeing some alternate methods of motivating Ripley while keeping the others alive. I do think it could potentially be done with the others being lost in space, or Ripley simply believing them to be dead. Could make that last decision to jump more powerful with her being told that they're still alive.

[HuDaFuK]

That's not to mention that Alan Dean Foster wanted to write the novelization of the movie with Newt still alive and trapped in hypersleep; this shows that even if Newt had lived then Ripley's actions in Alien 3 wouldn't have changed that much.

No, it shows ADF didn't like that she died.

As Hicks said, no one's ever read that version, so no one's in any position to specify how it would or would not have affected the story.

[Kel G 426]

She never charged into danger. She was always on the run, dodging and fleeing, panicking and in primal survival mode. She never entered the belly of the beast single handed to face IT face-to-face.

She was in a spacesuit, scared shitless. She strapped herself into a chair before pushing the vent buttons. In ALIENS she was being all one-liner cool, fighting the big bad boss alien in a mech suit. Then she managed to climb up the ladder - while being pulled into space, with a huge alien and a sic-fi forklift linked to her foot - that IS cheesy.

She ran to help Lambert and Parker, but didn't get there in time. She was willing to go in the vents but Dallas said no.  She showed tons of fear in Aliens.  She fought only when she had to help others.  Her only one-liner was "Get  away from her you BITCH!" which was delivered with fierce emotion, not cool detachment. Ripley's portrayal is consistent with the first film. 

How is that in any kind of way a non-issue?

Your not describing it correctly for one thing, which I'm sure is intentional.  The Powerloader fell away as soon as the doors opened.  Ripley stopped climbing when the queen grabbed her.  She even screamed in pain before the queen lost her grip. I don't have stats and figures on how much weight a human body can withstand in various situations so I can't gauge how realistic it was but who the hell cares?   The tension didn't stop until until Ripley shut that door.  That's what matters.

Also, the Queen is about double the total size of a regular Alien Adult

Correct.

I have explained it a billion times. I'm more interested to hear what makes the powerloader fight not cheesy, because it is cheesy and out of character compared to ALIEN and the first two thirds of ALIENS.

Simple execution is what made that that fight great.  The lack of a musical score made the sound effects so visceral. Weaver's performance and the way the opponents moved totally sold it.  And, as with every other scene in this movie, the tension was through the roof.  Toho could've learned something watching that scene.  You probably think the mere occurrence of a boss battle makes it cheesy by default.  That's on you.  The film's success proves that most folks loved it.

[426Buddy]

No point in explaining why the ending of Aliens is amazing, the film speaks for itself and it is excellent.

[predxeno]

How was she more or less hopeful than in the other films?  That's what I don't get.  In Alan Dean Foster's original version, Newt lives and book Ripley does everything movie Ripley does.

You've not read that version and can't attest to how well it works. Can I just try to get the point your trying to make because I'm not 100% sure what you're trying to say. All I've managed so far is that Hicks and Newt's death was cheap and done to avoid paying them?

My point in bringing up ADF's version is that Newt's death could hardly be that important if it could be so easily deleted or re-written.  Compare it to Amanda Ripley's death in Aliens; many could say that her death "sets the tone of the film" and sets up Ripley's future relationship with Newt thus making it an "integral" part of the story, however the detail was so minor that it was eventually cut from the theatrical release of the film.  This is the same for Alien 3, as many fans here have stated if you cut Aliens and the death of its cast in Alien 3 then the movie makes a perfect sequel to the original Alien.  My biggest gripe about Alien 3 is that instead of building on Aliens' story, it instead does everything it can to ignore it instead.

[HuDaFuK]

My point in bringing up ADF's version is that Newt's death could hardly be that important if it could be so easily deleted or re-written.

And you've ready Foster's original manuscript and know that for sure?

Hill and Giler made him re-write it precisely because it was too different from the movie they'd made.

[predxeno]

That's my point, if the plot point could be so easily rewritten then it can't be integral to the story in the first place.

[HuDaFuK]

I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse...

By keeping Hicks and Newt alive Foster altered the story, the producers didn't approve of him doing a book that was so different from the film so they made him rewrite it.

Of course it was easy to rewrite it so they don't die. It would be easy to rewrite it so Ripley isn't in it at all. But then it wouldn't be the same story, would it.

[predxeno]

As stated, you haven't read the script either so you can't say for sure that the book changed to as great an extent as you are suggesting.  I've read many of Alan Dean Foster's novelizations including both Transformers movies (and their corresponding prequels), the Alien Trilogy, and Terminator: Salvation and he always does a great job with the material he's given.

The important part of this post is that ADF was going to rewrite Alien 3 so that Newt stayed alive but Ripley's actions would ultimately have been the same as in the movie, therefore Newt's death could hardly be considered integral.  ADF does something similar in Terminator: Salvation where the story is essentially 95% the same but he does provide an alternate ending than the one provided in the movie (and no, it's not the one where John Connor dies and Marcus puts on his face to masquerade as the new savior of humanity).

[SpreadEagleBeagle]

She ran to help Lambert and Parker, but didn't get there in time. She was willing to go in the vents but Dallas said no.

That's different. In ALIEN she was backed up by her crew and she had no idea how dangerous the Alien actually is. She never saw it with her own eyes until AFTER she ran into the maimed and mutilated corpses of Parker and Lambert.

In ALIENS she taped big ass guns together and walked in all alone into the hive, for all she knew could've been teaming with adult Aliens. Explosions, fire, hellish forms and shapes... That's a different story altogether.

She showed tons of fear in Aliens.  She fought only when she had to help others.  Her only one-liner was "Get  away from her you BITCH!" which was delivered with fierce emotion, not cool detachment. Ripley's portrayal is consistent with the first film.

True. But her body language and facial expressions were different. She was looking all confident, fierce, cocky and ballsy as if it was no big deal, as if Newt wouldn't have been there she would've exterminated the whole nest by herself.

Ripley's portrayal is NOT consistent with the first film or the first two thirds of the movie. The end of ALIENS fits in better with A:R or AVP than ALIEN or A3.

Your not describing it correctly for one thing, which I'm sure is intentional.  The Powerloader fell away as soon as the doors opened.  Ripley stopped climbing when the queen grabbed her.  She even screamed in pain before the queen lost her grip. I don't have stats and figures on how much weight a human body can withstand in various situations so I can't gauge how realistic it was but who the hell cares? The tension didn't stop until until Ripley shut that door. That's what matters.

Fact still remains that she DEFIED the laws of physics in a really silly way, with our without the powerloader shackled to her and the queen. She should've been sucked into space like piece of dust in front of a vacuum cleaner. But no, super hero Ripley didn't only manage to hold on for her dear life, she also managed to freaking climb up a ladder, flip open a hatch in order to close the bulkhead...

Simple execution is what made that that fight great.  The lack of a musical score made the sound effects so visceral. Weaver's performance and the way the opponents moved totally sold it.  And, as with every other scene in this movie, the tension was through the roof.  Toho could've learned something watching that scene.  You probably think the mere occurrence of a boss battle makes it cheesy by default.  That's on you.  The film's success proves that most folks loved it.

Don't get me wrong, the technical aspects of that scene are amazing and Cameron is great at what he does. I mean, when I was a kid that scene was the coolest thing I've ever seen. But I didn't have to revisit ALIENS that many times in order to realize that the movie has a lot of two-dimensional characters, cheesy dialogue and an ending that is just out of character.

People who criticize A:R for it's cartoony characters, dialogue and over the top scenes but praise ALIENS for doing everything right be aware that ALIENS is just as close to A:R as it is to ALIEN.

No point in explaining why the ending of Aliens is amazing.

Amazingly stupid maybe.

[Corporal Hicks]

The important part of this post is that ADF was going to rewrite Alien 3 so that Newt stayed alive but Ripley's actions would ultimately have been the same as in the movie, therefore Newt's death could hardly be considered integral.

As stated, you haven't read the script either so you can't say for sure that the book changed to as great an extent as you are suggesting.

And once again, I re-iterate that neither can you know to what extant it changed the story. You can be as interested as I am to see the results but you can't go around saying with certainly that it wasn't integral because you don't know that. You can keep throwing up the subject of ADF and his rewrite but it means absolutely nothing for the point you are trying to make.