Cosmic horror in the Alien franchise

Started by BigChapismyBestFriend, Nov 16, 2023, 05:37:56 AM

Author
Cosmic horror in the Alien franchise (Read 9,090 times)

Immortan Jonesy

Immortan Jonesy

#60
Quote from: Thatguy2068 on Dec 27, 2023, 09:38:57 PM
Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 23, 2023, 01:50:56 PMThe origins pretty much reduced them to being essentially a creation of humans by proxy. Humans created androids and an android created the "alien". Nothing cosmic horror about that sadly, at least in my opinion.
I agree, The reason why I like the idea of them being remnant of a dead god because it fits the cosmic theme so well. This idea of a robot making the Xenomorph removed most of the cosmic theme, The reason I say most is because we have the black goo.

Too bad Ridley went in a different direction on Covenant. Seeing the temple on LV-223, it was inevitable to imagine that not only was the Alien ancient, but also that the Black Goo could be a byproduct that the Engineers obtained from the perfect organism.




The last link of a biomechanical world long lost, dominated by the true Space Jockeys. The Aliens were their biological weapons designed to combat an unknown enemy. The pilots terraformed planets, the Engineers being the last of their creations. With the fall of the gods, the Engineers built their civilization based on the technological legacy of the giants.


BigChapismyBestFriend

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Dec 27, 2023, 10:11:43 PM
Quote from: Thatguy2068 on Dec 27, 2023, 09:38:57 PM
Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 23, 2023, 01:50:56 PMThe origins pretty much reduced them to being essentially a creation of humans by proxy. Humans created androids and an android created the "alien". Nothing cosmic horror about that sadly, at least in my opinion.
I agree, The reason why I like the idea of them being remnant of a dead god because it fits the cosmic theme so well. This idea of a robot making the Xenomorph removed most of the cosmic theme, The reason I say most is because we have the black goo.

Too bad Ridley went in a different direction on Covenant. Seeing the temple on LV-223, it was inevitable to imagine that not only was the Alien ancient, but also that the Black Goo could be a byproduct that the Engineers obtained from the perfect organism.




The last link of a biomechanical world long lost, dominated by the true Space Jockeys. The Aliens were their biological weapons designed to combat an unknown enemy. The pilots terraformed planets, the Engineers being the last of their creations. With the fall of the gods, the Engineers built their civilization based on the technological legacy of the giants.

That, I know that Prometheus have some flaws with the writing but I admire putting a bit more cosmic theme in the franchise.

ralfy

ralfy

#62
To recap, cosmic horror following Lovecraft's definition involves seeing the universe as faceless and neutral, and thus bleak. It's like what William Shatner realized recently, when he looked out the portal while he was in the rocket and saw only nothing.

That's not very entertaining, so Lovecraft had to bring in fictional creatures like the Elder Ones to depict that philosophy. That is, there are no protagonists or heroes in his stories, only some who are able to survive creatures who see human beings merely as playthings. That view is also part of Gothic literature.

In the case of this franchise, aliens and other creatures are used.

Immortan Jonesy

Immortan Jonesy

#63
Quote from: ralfy on Dec 28, 2023, 12:43:03 AMonly some who are able to survive creatures who see human beings merely as playthings.

I still believe the original movie is the most cosmic horror one across the IP.


dnicholson277

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Dec 28, 2023, 05:25:56 AM
Quote from: ralfy on Dec 28, 2023, 12:43:03 AMonly some who are able to survive creatures who see human beings merely as playthings.

I still believe the original movie is the most cosmic horror one across the IP.

https://i.ibb.co/vVHwJp7/spacejockeyhead341.jpg

It's the unknown that triggers our imagination.

I always found the black goo to be too convenient.

In my head the space jockey in Alien is fused with the ship like it's a bio-mechanical alien version of the Nostromos computer. Maybe grown for that purpose.

Immortan Jonesy

Quote from: dnicholson277 on Dec 29, 2023, 11:15:31 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Dec 28, 2023, 05:25:56 AM
Quote from: ralfy on Dec 28, 2023, 12:43:03 AMonly some who are able to survive creatures who see human beings merely as playthings.

I still believe the original movie is the most cosmic horror one across the IP.

https://i.ibb.co/vVHwJp7/spacejockeyhead341.jpg

It's the unknown that triggers our imagination.

I always found the black goo to be too convenient.

In my head the space jockey in Alien is fused with the ship like it's a bio-mechanical alien version of the Nostromos computer. Maybe grown for that purpose.

Interesting comparison. Yes, one could imagine that being biomechanoids, there is a whole Bio Punk thing going on.


ralfy

ralfy

#66
Lovecraftian or cosmic horror is explained here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lovecraftian_horror

but it turns out that that it is based on cosmicism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmicism

QuoteThe philosophy of cosmicism states that "there is no recognizable divine presence, such as a god, in the universe, and that humans are particularly insignificant in the larger scheme of intergalactic existence."[4] The most prominent theme is humanity's fear of their insignificance in the face of an incomprehensibly large universe:[5][6][7] a fear of the cosmic void.[8]





SiL

SiL

#67
Which is more prevalent in the first film than in the prequels, where the Alien organisms are actually just humans in suits and humans are intimately related to everything else.

Only the first movie captures the smallness and insignificance of humans in the void.

oduodu

"Only the first movie captures the smallness and insignificance of humans in the void."

that is my main criticism of aliens. its a brilliant movie. but as scott said when ripley goes down the elrvator you know shes going to win.

BigChapismyBestFriend

Quote from: oduodu on Dec 30, 2023, 10:12:59 AM"Only the first movie captures the smallness and insignificance of humans in the void."

that is my main criticism of aliens. its a brilliant movie. but as scott said when ripley goes down the elrvator you know shes going to win.
Yeah I agree Aliens was the one that influenced many aliens stories to have the xeno no more then a bug.

The Cruentus

To be honest they always had bug-like qualities, but I agree some stories have reduced them to cannon fodder, like Requiem for example.

Immortan Jonesy

Quote from: oduodu on Dec 30, 2023, 10:12:59 AM"Only the first movie captures the smallness and insignificance of humans in the void."

that is my main criticism of aliens. its a brilliant movie. but as scott said when ripley goes down the elrvator you know shes going to win.

Right😅👍

ralfy

ralfy

#72
From what I remember, the first movie showed the crew helpless not only against the alien but even against W-Y. Almost nothing is said about the Space Jockey.

The alien was depicted only in the shadows, and was revealed fully only during the latter part of the movie. That's how the idea of horror emerged: through suspense.

Because audiences already knew what the creature looked like, then they had to switch subgenres, and they chose action. But how to exemplify that given some action taking place in the first movie? Use lots of aliens.

The third movie could do neither, which is why it focused on a procedural, where the protagonists have little to wonder about the creature; they have to figure out how to use prison facilities and no weapons to kill it. (Interesting side note: one still from the first movie revealed that the crew had weapons like laser guns.)

One can say the same for the fourth movie, where different groups are involved: scientists, security, civilians, mercenaries, etc. Add to that mutations, etc.

Thus, it's all generally horror, with elements borrowed from Lovecraft, like mutations, but not much of cosmic horror, i.e., not only the origins of the aliens but the point that protagonists live in a neutral, bleak universe (note: not evil but actually neutral or uncaring).

The first point, which is depicted in more detail in the first prequel, can be entertaining if it leads to wonder, but the second is not that entertaining because it may lead to resignation, and even nihilism.




The Cruentus

Neutrality isn't really the same as lovecraftian horror though since the latter does imply forces at work that make the universe worse. Instead what we got is something created by humans, creating something else that is only 20 plus years old.


Before the prequels, we had a mysteries origin for Aliens, where they were either something made by the space jockies or at least found by them. It is then imply there was a world out there that would be so horrific to either evolve such a creature or something out there to necessitate the use of it as a bio-weapon against something.

The prequels just made the universe seem small and full of convienent coincedences.

BigChapismyBestFriend

Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 31, 2023, 12:18:49 AMTo be honest they always had bug-like qualities, but I agree some stories have reduced them to cannon fodder, like Requiem for example.
I'm starting to feel that there's more to this claim because they behave differently too. The first movie did had a scene where Kane Son slowly walk up to Lambert like there's some sort of intelligent behind those eyeless sockets, with Aliens The only intelligent thing that they did is to cut out the power and that's it and I'm only talking about the warrior, not the Queen. I feel like the only time Big Chap was replicated was in Alien isolation with some of the unique death animations. I may be wrong though.

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