Stupidity of the Ego: In defence of Prometheus and Covenant

[SiL]

Basically. Fixing it would have been super easy; barely an inconvenience.

[The Old One]

I think the fact that when the Captain speaks to him and you hear dialogue repeating, as though it's a connection issue, was supposed to tell the audience that because the connection got lost, the ability to navigate is also lost because the connection to the Prometheus' map is lost. But that's being very generous and it's not nearly clear enough.

[bb-15]

It does not matter how knowledgeable a person is with map hardware/software; if they are very agitated, they can make a mistake. Fifield was clearly agitated.   
We saw this in "Jurassic Park" where the simplest turn is forgotten by an expert computer engineer who had set up the network on the island.

This all ignores how film storytelling works.

I'm not here to change your mind. I know that many people agree with you.
But you are also not going to change my mind.
I've had this same debate for multiple years going back to the release of "Prometheus" and my argument remains the same.

1. Your approach reflects what most people today believe that action, adventure, science fiction, mystery movies are supposed to be.
It reflects the huge influence of George Lucas and Spielberg since the Indiana Jones films. These were based on children's short films not only in content but with story telling (with blood added in "Temple of Doom").
- Lucas clearly explains his approach in the documentary "Hearts of Darkness" (which is about the making of "Apocalypse Now")
In that movie Lucas severely criticizes Francis Ford Coppola's film style because it loses the audience.
For Lucas the audience includes kids. This was shown in his battle over "The Empire Strikes Back". Lucas considers this the worst Star Wars film.
After that, Star Wars had to be more kid friendly as shown in "Return of the Jedi".
Gary Kurtz was a producer of "Star Wars: A New Hope" and "Empire Strikes Back". He broke with Lucas over "The Return of the Jedi" because of this very issue. 

2. So, none of my comments ignore film story telling. I've takes a couple of college level film classes.
- Before the Lucas/Spielberg revolution with Indiana Jones; action, adventure, science fiction, mystery movies could routinely have story elements which were not fully explained. Some examples; "Blade Runner", "Apocalypse Now", "Chinatown", "The Godfather", "Solaris", "2001", "The Birds", going back to "The Big Sleep" with Humphrey Bogart.
- Interestingly, after big box office movies changed because of Lucas/Spielberg, TV series took up the mantle of more obscure story telling.
One clear example is "The Expanse". (There are others like the "Battlestar Galactica" reboot or "Stargate Universe".)
There are also exceptions with newer films. The "Solaris" remake which didn't do well financially, the Matrix sequels which were strongly criticized and Nolan who can hold the mass audience with obscure story ideas such as in "Inception" and "Interstellar". But Nolan is very unique.

Fifield can make a mistake, but the mistake must be explained.

- The reason for his mistake in the tunnels is figured out by his behavior which is a focus of his character since he came out of stasis.
- He is an emotional, angry guy. That is what the film is repeatedly telling the audience about Fifield. 
- Why did Fifield emotionally explode when he saw the giant space alien?
He completely did not believe that giant space aliens were possible. His reaction to the Shaw/Holloway Engineer theory is literally "Bull Shit!".
(Why someone who was completely against the Shaw/Holloway theory was picked for the crew is another topic which I won't get into now.)

* The clues about Fifield getting lost are there in the movie.
By comparison with "The Expanse" for two seasons, figuring out Fifield is relatively easy.
- It's about expectations. I like movies which are more challenging to the viewer.
So does Ridley Scott.   

He's established as the guy with the mapping hardware, who has the map, who leads the crew around, who's in contact with the mothership.

Those tech details are in the movie but this is not the dominant theme about Fifield.
Again, what the viewer mostly knows about Fifield is that he can get very angry / emotional.
And that can affect a person's competence.

Suddenly, he's been lost for some time,

No, he is not lost "for some time" as if it was hours.
The story sequence in the film is important to recognize.
The ship contacts Shaw & tells her she needs to get her team out of there ASAP.
Shaw & her part of the crew barely make it back to the mothership alive in about 15 minutes.

* A 10 minute delay in "Prometheus" before the storm means that character is not getting back to the mothership.
- It's like missing an exit on the highway because a driver got distracted. That could cause a 10 minute delay.

- Once Fifield can't leave the tunnels because of the storm, he finds his way back to the Shrine/altar/sculpture room. He was no longer lost.

and the mothership not noticing,

Right before the storm, the crew of the mothership were very busy, as shown in the film, trying to deal with the storm. 

it's a plothole -- a hole in the established events and characterisation of the story.

Since the Lucas/Spielberg change in big budget movies, this is a common expectation.
Everything has to be explained.
Fine if you like that.
I find that kind of storytelling boring.

As for Nedry, firstly he's established as a computer engineer, not any sort of navigator.

1. In our world, you think that the cellphone company doesn't know where their cell towers are?
You think the cable company doesn't know where their wiring is?
Of course they do.
* In "Jurassic Park", Nedry set up the computer system throughout the island. That is tied to phone communications, the video feed, the fences, the gates.
He knows about the electrified fences throughout the island. He knows about every electrically controlled gate. Turning those off is part of his plan.
2. In "Jurassic Park" there is one access road from the headquarters. Nedry takes that. The road splits into two.
Left is to the docks.
Right is to the helipad.
- Do you know your left from your right? Of course.
Nedry forgot that.
Why? He was under a lot of stress.   

the weather is terrible,

- It's a tropical island. In his work on the island over the years Nedry would have driven in the rain multiple times. 

the signage to his destination isn't clear.

The signage doesn't have to be clear.
Left goes to the docks.

His skills as a computer programmer are utterly inconsequential to his ability to navigate.

Actually they are when a computer programmer sets up a network system over a large area.
Back to our world.
- I worked in information systems for several years. We networked 5 offices. We knew where those offices were. We knew where every wire for networking in those offices was strung. 
- Also again, the phone company knows where their cell towers are and the cable company knows where their wires are.

One line of dialogue about interference

There is dialogue about interference.

or someone other than Fifield getting lost and the plot hole is explained.

Since the reason for Fifield getting lost was his emotional / mental state, no one else needed to get lost.

I think the fact that when the Captain speaks to him and you hear dialogue repeating, as though it's a connection issue,

We have a winner.
The storm affected communication from the mothership to the team(s).

But it's not the reason Fifield stomped away from Shaw and got lost.
He freaked out which distracted him. Simple as that.

[SM]

There is dialogue about interference.

When?

[SiL]

Since the Lucas/Spielberg change in big budget movies, this is a common expectation.
Everything has to be explained.

Stories being expected to follow through with established plot points -- and provide explanations where they deviate -- predates the 1970s.

Nedry forgot that.
Why? He was under a lot of stress.   

Which is clearly shown and explained in the film. You're trying to use a film which goes to lengths to show exactly how and why a character gets lost, to defend a film which goes to no such lengths to do the same thing, then acting as if they're equivalent. It is strange.

[The Old One]

It is certainly strange.

[javablue]

(Sil replying to BB) Stories being expected to follow through with established plot points -- and provide explanations where they deviate -- predates the 1970s.

Predates The Epic of Gilgamesh actually.

(Sil replying to BB) [That Nedry was under stress] is clearly shown and explained in the film. You're trying to use a film which goes to lengths to show exactly how and why a character gets lost, to defend a film which goes to no such lengths to do the same thing, then acting as if they're equivalent. It is strange.

You could mount a very valid argument that Nedry never actually got lost. The closest he comes to saying he is lost is when he says something like "I should be there by now". He then meets a sign pointing the way to the dock but has an accident and gets killed before he can get going again.

Yes, definitely strange. I ran into BB back in the day and he'll come up with any illogical argument to defend his position. For the sake of your sanity better you ignore him.

Anyhow back to Fifield. These are the four main facts relating to the mapman getting lost debate. Two of them are never mentioned.

1. As you said Sil, nobody misses the scene that establishes Fifield as the map man.

2. Much less known is this shot taken shortly after Fifield releases his "pups". Here someone asks Fifield, "Fifield, you got a read?". Fifield replies that "yeah" he does, consults his wrist controller (for want of a better explanation) and says:

"Pups are saying this way."

and then he walks off - still looking at his wrist controller - while the others follow.

This particular shot is a longish one (ie using a telephoto lens) and it is dark but Fifield can be clearly seen looking at his wrist in the same manner as one looks at a wrist watch. However, if you're spending your time looking at deleted scenes, listening to commentaries or watching Jurassic Park instead of focusing on Prometheus, you may have missed it.

A quick explanation about the wrist controller. It's the same type we see Holloway wearing in an extreme close up just before he takes off his helmet. Fifield is also seen wearing one when setting up his pups and we later see that Milburn has one as well - so we can assume all members of the crew have one and can get in touch with the map on the Prometheus (should they get lost, for example) and other data as required (eg the atmosphere).

3. And nobody misses the scene where our two stumbling heroes admit they are lost. Milburn says, "We've been here before, Fifield." and Fifield replies that he doesn't know if they have or not as everything looks the same to him. However, neither of them seem to have consulted their wrist controllers or mention there is a problem with them even though we can clearly see Fifield is still wearing his.

4. The next scene related to the "lost" duo begins while they are checking out the pile of dead Engineers. The Captain suddenly calls:

"Millburn, Fifield. This is Prometheus. What is your position?"

The first interesting point here is, why doesn't the Captain know their location? After all, he's looking at the dome hologram map and even we, the audience, can see where F and M are located. So what's going on?

The second interesting point is that Milburn is the one who replies. He looks at his wrist controller, fingers the controls and then says:

"Prometheus, this is Millburn. We are at 7-4-0-1-4-7-7. Why?"

So now Fifield and Milburn are no longer lost because Milburn has a wrist controller and and his actions prove that he can both track his location and communicate that location to the Captain. So why didn't he use it earlier when the duo were supposedly lost? Why didn't either of them mention that the contollers may have had problem? The only reason Fifield gives for being lost is that everything looks the same to him.

Ok we haven't solved the problem but we have re-defined it. It's no longer just the stupid map-man getting lost but also involves Miburn and to a lesser extent, the Captain. So now we have to start again....

[The Old One]

I look forward to your full analysis.

[Immortan Jonesy]

I thought Fifield was high as f**k.

[javablue]

I look forward to your full analysis.

One day perhaps.

[The Old One]

Dead on.

[Local Trouble]

I look forward to your full analysis.

One day perhaps.

I would like to know more.

[Wlvscrclwlvs]

Have to say I find I can only watch the giftbarer edit of prometheus nowadays, adds back in all those extra scenes that give proper explanation to character actions and gives a far superior feel to the run of the story with slower pacing where needed, really do get the feeling studio pressure as always caused the original film to be cut in a way that ticks boxes for money men not for story fleshing out but that's the case with nearly all big productions.

Seems to me there's a ton of people who expect characters to act how they want them to, not in the slightest true to life of course! There's a lot of characters who aren't very open with each other and a hell of lot of insecurity going round as I'm guessing they've never met and seemingly didn't know the details before the signed up which maybe suggests they have to be not the brightest or desperate for the money or even it was miss sold.

Holloway is a perfect example, he's only there as an extra due to his relationship with Shaw, she did all the work to get weyland interested in the mission he's just a hyper puppy, Indiana Jones style scientist who clearly is not Head of his field but he's keen and fearless so perfect if you want what vickers wanted...

Vickers clearly picked certain people to not be best at there job to help the whole mission end quicker so she could get rid of good old dad and head home, that and she even states she didn't belive for a second engineers ever existed so why waste money on a decent crew. The rest of the staff are purely there for weyland and thoose guys have less screen time and seem to have a good idea of what is going on(to a point).

That and David consistently pushes the crew from the get go to be impulsive for his own agenda.

[PsyKore]

I watched Prometheus last night for the first time in about 5 years. It's actually a pretty good film. I feel like it's settled with me and I like it more now than I used to. Still Love Covenant a lot more though.

[Kradan]

I watched Prometheus last night for the first time in about 5 years. It's actually a pretty good film. I feel like it's settled with me and I like it more now than I used to. Still Love Covenant a lot more though.

Seriously though, it's really not that bad some people think. I can easily over-look " stupid scientists " and "bald white humanoids" and enjoy it a lot when I'm in the right mood. Visuals are great and it definetly has atmosphere to it.