This is why Prometheus is a great Sci-Fi film

[Russ840]

My bad. Been a long time since i watched the deleted scenes. I thought there was a more bloody version shot and the one we got was tame.

[SpeedyMaxx]

What I'm curious about - and I don't know if it was ever solved - is why they supposedly had scanned Kate Dickie's head into a computer or done a mold or something for the final scene with her about the juggernaut. Did she have some other fate in store?

[Russ840]

Out of interest BB. Can you give me a quick run down of your opinions of the other 4 movies from the series?  Would you mind?

No problem. My view of the Alien movies with "Prometheus" added in.

* "Alien"; I rank this #10 on my all time science fiction movie list.
A1 is the best SF horror film ever made imo. (Only the 1982 "The Thing" rivals it imo which I rank at #12.)
A1 is an excellent blend of ominous mood and tense acting.

* "Aliens";  I rank this #17 on my all time science fiction movie list.
A2 is a top notch action SF movie. I'd only put "The Matrix" (#8), "Total Recall" (#11) and "Terminator 2" (#16) above it.
- Cameron had long sequences of action in "Aliens" (creating the modern action style). And Sigourney and Carrie Henn play effective characters. 

* After these triumphs, the Alien franchise ran into some problems imo.
1. Sigourney got script control of the later Alien films. She was not interested in expanding the Alien universe or developing longterm relationships between Ripley and other characters. Future films had to only focus on her character.
2. The Fox studio meddled in the later films but imo not in a good way. It was filmmaking by committee.

* "Alien 3"; I know several people think this is an excellent movie and some even think it's the best Alien film. Imo "development hell" is an apt description of the way it was put together.
David Fincher, an excellent director, was put in an impossible situation.
- As filming began much of the budget was already spent and the script wasn't finished. There were disputes over Giger's designs.
- Most importantly Fincher was not given control of the movie. He is so pissed off about A3 that he has disowned it. He has refused to do a director's cut of the film.
As a result, A2 theatrical or the Assembly Cut lacks the vision of a director who is put in charge compared with A1 and A2.
A3 is still interesting to watch.

* "Alien Resurrection"; this film had the talented Joss Whedon do the script but it had numerous rewites. Sigourney was now a producer of the film giving her even more control.
Jeunet became the director and he changed the ending of the script multiple times. 
- Whedon believes the production did a poor job in casting, with designs and with the musical score.
- A4 has its good moments but it is not in the same class as Scott's outstanding "Alien".

* As for "Prometheus"; finally Sigourney was not in charge.
This allowed Scott to open up the franchise to the background of the Space Jockeys/Engineers, and explore their technology / culture.
- Also, Scott did not repeat the genre/styles of "Alien" and "Aliens" adding variety to the series.
"Prometheus" is a combination of art film SF ("2001"/"Blade Runner"), adventure SF ("Jurassic Park") and mystery SF (with some Sherlock Holmes moments).
I rank it #19 on my all time science fiction movie list.

I would love for Ridley to release a 'Special Edition' of Prometheus. I would love to see the deleted scene of the Engineer, in the life boat playing cat and mouse with Shaw, edited back in.  The more R rated Med pod scene. The end scene with the F bomb.  The Engineer speaking.

Ridley may do that someday.

why did Peter Weyland have to pretend to be dead.

This follows a famous mystery trope, the supposedly dead antagonist who is actually controlling things from behind the scenes.

The purpose of Weyland pretending to be dead is to give a reason for why the mission fails.
- In "Alien" the reason things go very wrong is because of sabotage by Ash.
Ash knows about the "creature". After Kane is infected, Ash allows Kane to eat with the crew with a giant, fast growing parasite inside of him.
Ash is pleased when the xenomorph gets loose. Ash doesn't care about getting the creature back to the Weyland/Yutani weapons labs on earth. Ash revels in the creature being free and killing/transforming the crew. 

- In "Prometheus" the antagonist concept is similar. Weyland, like Ash is sabotaging the mission. Weyland's motive is different from Ash.
Weyland is selfish and wants to live forever. So, Weyland has David sabotage things to try to quickly find a cure for death.
- Weyland is hiding out in a stasis pod to stay alive since he is on the edge of death.
To sabotage the mission he has to keep things secret.
Only at the end once an alive Engineer is found, does Weyland reveal himself and take over the mission.
At that point the bodyguards have Shaw under Weyland's control.
It is also revealed that much of the crew have been Weyland's servants which includes David.
(The pilots and the captain are just company employees.) 

* This is Ridley Scott doing a role reversal story idea which he also did in "Blade Runner".
- In BR the escaped replicants are at first evil killers.
By the end, the escaped replicants are not evil. Roy and the escaped replicants are freedom fighters.
They are slaves in a system led by the Tyrell Corporation which is evil.

- "Prometheus" has this kind of drastic role reversal.
At first Weyland in the hologram pretends that this is a scientific mission and that Shaw / Holloway are in charge. He is acting like a benevolent, generous figure.
- By the end Weyland's words in his hologram speech turn out to be a complete lie. 
The entire mission and the $trillion is just about Weyland getting a cure for death.
Weyland doesn't care about anything else including the life of much of his crew.
David has been his pawn. Vickers has been under Weyland's control.
The entire mission is now being led with an iron hand by a desperate, irrational old man.

I get all that but why bother with the cloak and daggers rubbish. There was no need. He was funding the mission. He can do whatever he likes. No need for the sabotage. For me its a bit of poor and cliché writing.

[SM]

Loss of confidence in the Company and share price suffering if their founder and visionary is found out to be chasing God in deep space.

[Russ840]

I don't mind him being there as a surprise. Thats fine. Why did he have to fake his death though?  Thats my problem with it.

His death would have likely caused shares to drop as well. If thats what he was worried about. Faith could also be lost in the company.

[SM]

Death is inevitable and can be planned for, considering his age.  The state of his mental health could be harder to manage.

[SiL]

What I'm curious about - and I don't know if it was ever solved - is why they supposedly had scanned Kate Dickie's head into a computer or done a mold or something for the final scene with her about the juggernaut. Did she have some other fate in store?

Face replacement of a stunt person if it was a digital model?

[Russ840]

Death is inevitable and can be planned for, considering his age.  The state of his mental health could be harder to manage.

Thats fine. My point is, why fake your death?  Just make out that you were not going to go on this mission that your company is funding. I suppose you can argue that his age and failing health meant he was not going to live long enough to see the fruits of the mission.

So is that an element of the movie that you like then ? His faked death i mean ?

[bb-15]

I get all that but why bother with the cloak and daggers rubbish. There was no need. He was funding the mission.

I don't think I've explained this well enough. I'll try again.

- Lying and hiding the truth is often essential to getting people to go along with horrible things in our world.
- And in the first two Alien movies, lying and hiding the truth is fundamental to the two main non monster antagonists.
Ash lies and hides his intentions.
Same with Burke.

He can do whatever he likes. No need for the sabotage.

Actually, Weyland cannot do "whatever he likes". He has to do certain things.

1. Weyland had to be in stasis because otherwise he would be dead.
So, at least that explains why he is not around.

2. Weyland had to lie to get Shaw and Holloway to do what he wanted.
Weyland's plan was to go to LV-223 and;

A. Have David ignore scientific protocol.
What scientist is going to join such a mission which will almost completely ignore science? (Such as opening a door and taking an urn of black goo without permission.)
- But Weyland wanted the "true believers" as Vickers put it (who were Shaw and Holloway) to be part of the mission.
Weyland wanted qualified people who had studied the Engineer hypothesis to be on board.
- Result; pretend that Shaw and Holloway were in charge of a scientific mission.

B. Have David put the crew in danger to look for clues to a cure for death.
This also might include David experimenting on the crew which could kill crew members.
- Obviously, Shaw and Holloway would not have agreed to those terms.
Evidence for this is that Shaw is pretty upset when Holloway is killed (by one of David's experiments).

C. If Weyland was openly in charge from the beginning, then once David started screwing up, such as opening the door to the sculpture/shrine room without permission, then Shaw / Holloway could be pounding on Weyland's stasis pod yelling about David being out of control.
- Evidence for this possibility is in the movie.
Soon after Shaw sees that Weyland is alive, she says to David that he is under the control of Weyland's programming.
The mere presence of Weyland blows the ruse that he created.

* It was much better for Weyland to do it the way it was shown in the movie.
His lies to get Shaw and Holloway to be on board.
And Shaw thinks that Weyland is dead and so is puzzled why David is acting in strange ways.
- While Weyland is hiding, Shaw doesn't figure out what was wrong with this mission.
Result; Weyland's plan to hide and pretend he was dead was sound.

For me its a bit of poor and cliché writing.

* Of course there is personal taste ("poor writing") but as for the mystery story cliches we are discussing they come from the same story which forms the basis of "Alien".
Which is "And Then There Were None" by Agatha Christie.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_Then_There_Were_None

It is a very influential novel (also called "Ten Little Indians")..

"Ten Little Indians" is how director Ridley Scott described the plot of 'Alien' to actor Harry Dean Stanton (Brett) before he agreed to take on his role in this late seventies science-fiction/horror movie.

https://horrornovelreviews.com/2014/01/14/ridley-scotts-alien-an-exercise-in-existential-terror/

"Alien" shares cliches with "Prometheus" from the same source and the cliches in question in this discussion come from that same source. 



PS. From a later post;

Just make out that you were not going to go on this mission that your company is funding. I suppose you can argue that his age and failing health meant he was not going to live long enough to see the fruits of the mission.

Announcing that one is dead is much cleaner. Publically pretending to stay behind on earth could be checked and quickly found out to be a ruse.
'Where is he staying' the press could ask? 'He is not where he is supposed to be' could quickly be found out for instance.

So is that an element of the movie that you like then?

I don't have to like or dislike every moment in a film. If a story idea is logical and is a commonly accepted story trope, I'll go along with that.

[Russ840]

 No. Im sorry. I dont agree with what you are saying. Weyland could have said that the trip was to cover more than one venture. Its up to him. He was funding the mission. He decides what happens. He could have told Shaw that thier part of the mission was to look for the Engineers. Other teams are there for geology and what not. He could have had a team doing whatever he wanted and he did not owe anyone a thing.  So for me. This part of the movie is poor, ultimately unnecessary and played badly. That's just me though.

[bb-15]

No. Im sorry. I dont agree with what you are saying. Weyland could have said that the trip was to cover more than one venture. Its up to him. He was funding the mission. He decides what happens.

No he doesn't. Weyland doesn't control what Shaw and Hollwoay do unless he's going to lock them up.
For Weyland to do what you suggest, he would have to lie.
Otherwise once David starts screwing up the mission, then Shaw will be going after Weyland who is frail and would not want to deal with that.

He could have told Shaw that thier part of the mission was to look for the Engineers. Other teams are there for geology and what not. He could have had a team doing whatever he wanted and he did not owe anyone a thing.

If someone's job is getting screwed over and your boss has your significant other killed, then that is a problem.
- You don't seem to realize that what you are telling me is that if your boss killed your significant other, then that would be OK because your boss does 'not owe anyone a thing".
- Sorry but that is not true in our world or in a fictional world of an Alien movie.

For instance in "Aliens" there is an intense argument between Ripley and Burke. According to your line of reasoning Ripley or no one else should complain to Burke because he represents the company and the company can do whatever it wants because a company does "not owe anyone a thing".
With all due respect but that is not the reality in our world or in the world of the Alien movies. 

[SM]

Death is inevitable and can be planned for, considering his age.  The state of his mental health could be harder to manage.

Thats fine. My point is, why fake your death?  Just make out that you were not going to go on this mission that your company is funding. I suppose you can argue that his age and failing health meant he was not going to live long enough to see the fruits of the mission.

So is that an element of the movie that you like then ? His faked death i mean ?

It's not something that's ever been an issue really.

[Russ840]

No. Im sorry. I dont agree with what you are saying. Weyland could have said that the trip was to cover more than one venture. Its up to him. He was funding the mission. He decides what happens.

No he doesn't. Weyland doesn't control what Shaw and Hollwoay do unless he's going to lock them up.
For Weyland to do what you suggest, he would have to lie.
Otherwise once David starts screwing up the mission, then Shaw will be going after Weyland who is frail and would not want to deal with that.

He could have told Shaw that thier part of the mission was to look for the Engineers. Other teams are there for geology and what not. He could have had a team doing whatever he wanted and he did not owe anyone a thing.

If someone's job is getting screwed over and your boss has your significant other killed, then that is a problem.
- You don't seem to realize that what you are telling me is that if your boss killed your significant other, then that would be OK because your boss does 'not owe anyone a thing".
- Sorry but that is not true in our world or in a fictional world of an Alien movie.

For instance in "Aliens" there is an intense argument between Ripley and Burke. According to your line of reasoning Ripley or no one else should complain to Burke because he represents the company and the company can do whatever it wants because a company does "not owe anyone a thing".
With all due respect but that is not the reality in our world or in the world of the Alien movies. 

The significant other was killed due to infection and Vickers not wanting him on the ship.

Weyland never told David to infect Holloway. Holloway indirectly gave David te permission for that.

I never said that Weyland controlled Shaw and Holloway but they were under his employ. If he said " we are going here, you can do this and that there, but ill will have other teams doing this, also" why would there be a problem.

Im not telling you that you are wrong. Im just saying i dont like it, it could have been handled in other ways, that j would have preferred. I think it was a poor element of the movie, among others.

Regarding your last part of the post where you tell me how the real works. Im not suggesting thaf Weyland can kill and do what he likes in that sense. I meant that it is his mission at the end of the day. That is not arguble. So he had overall power to dictate the terms and unless Shaw and Holloway were the most unreasonable pair in history, being that that had not stake other than weyland wanted them there, then why would they have a problem with Weyland having more going on than them looking for Engineers?

I think ill call it a day now with this line of discussion. You will simply have to accept that i am not fond of that aspect of the movie.

I know you will argue to the utmost in favour for this film. Thats fine. I have no issue with you loving it.

Ps, thanks for your thoughts on the other movies mate.

What about Predator. Do you hold that in high regard ?

[SM]

Weyland may not have told David to harm or kill Holloway - but he effectively gave him carte blanche to do whatever it took to achieve Weyland's mission and everyone but Weyland was expendable.

[SpeedyMaxx]

What I'm curious about - and I don't know if it was ever solved - is why they supposedly had scanned Kate Dickie's head into a computer or done a mold or something for the final scene with her about the juggernaut. Did she have some other fate in store?

Face replacement of a stunt person if it was a digital model?

Yeah, most likely. Ah, I was so hoping an omniscient Engineer would make people's heads explode with its fearsome power.