This is why Prometheus is a great Sci-Fi film

[Russ840]

Weyland may not have told David to harm or kill Holloway - but he effectively gave him carte blanche to do whatever it took to achieve Weyland's mission and everyone but Weyland was expendable.

Yeah i know that. Thats not my issue. Not much of what has been talked about the last page is. My issue is pretending to be dead. I think it was unnecessary.

I do think that if when David asked Holloway what he would do to get his answers, if Holloway had not have said 'anything' David would not have done what he did. Perhaps.

[bb-15]

I think ill call it a day now with this line of discussion. You will simply have to accept that i am not fond of that aspect of the movie.

I can see that is where our discussion is going which is fine with me.
I've enjoyed the exchange about the movie and I'm fine with eventually agreeing to disagree.
Still I have some more words to add.

I know you will argue to the utmost in favour for this film. Thats fine. I have no issue with you loving it.

My argument is not based on a blind love for this film.
I have no problems with finding flaws with "Prometheus".
I can argue strongly to criticize this movie.
- But imo what you have presented is not a flaw.

Im not suggesting thaf Weyland can kill and do what he likes in that sense. I meant that it is his mission at the end of the day. That is not arguble. So he had overall power to dictate the terms

* I am not persuaded by your argument. Of course an employer can dictate terms of employment within the law.
But what imo you have not seen in the movie is that part of Weyland's terms of employment is to have a servant poison an employee with no consequences.
- Considering that this is part of Weyland's unlawful work environment, you have not refuted my argument that criminals (like Weyland) can try to mask their identities to escape detection which is what Weyland did in the film. 
Criminals may try to hide (change identities, fake a death) to escape from the consequences of their wrong behavior.

Im not telling you that you are wrong. Im just saying i dont like it,

OK, but I'm answering your question, why does Weyland fake his death?
It isn't about liking or disliking imo. It's that what he does is logical imo.

The significant other was killed due to infection and Vickers not wanting him on the ship.

I'll be more precise.
* What is imo the crime in the film?
- David, who is Weyland's property and is under Weyland's control, (as discussed by Shaw) poisoned Holloway causing a completely mutilating, inclurable disease/transformation.
- This crime occurred soon after David had a chat with Weyland where David was getting orders from Weyland.
- Vickers freaked out at this moment (afraid of what Weyland was up to) but Vickers could not stop Weyland's pawn, David, from following Weyland's orders.
- David then poisoned Holloway. David was manipulating a drunk Holloway and could get him to say whatever David wanted.
No matter what, David was going to poison Holloway.
* Who is legally responsible for this crime? Not David. He is a machine owned by Weyland and is under Weyland's control as stated in the film.
- Weyland is the legally responsible person involved and he would know that.

* In a crew situation there is always the danger of mutiny. And a leader giving orders which leads to the wrongful poisoning of a crew member could cause a mutiny.
- A criminal leader may want to escape detection in such situations which is what Weyland did. 

That is why imo Weyland faked his death.
- This isn't about some gut level emotion on my part.

Ps, thanks for your thoughts on the other movies mate.

You're welcome. 

What about Predator. Do you hold that in high regard ?

Yes I do. I like a lot of science fiction movies and "Predator" is #40 on my top ~50 list.

[SM]

Weyland may not have told David to harm or kill Holloway - but he effectively gave him carte blanche to do whatever it took to achieve Weyland's mission and everyone but Weyland was expendable.

Yeah i know that. Thats not my issue. Not much of what has been talked about the last page is. My issue is pretending to be dead. I think it was unnecessary.

I do think that if when David asked Holloway what he would do to get his answers, if Holloway had not have said 'anything' David would not have done what he did. Perhaps.

Yep.  "Anything and everything" gave David the opening he needed.  And David was obviously taking advantage of Charlie being half cut.

[Russ840]

I think ill call it a day now with this line of discussion. You will simply have to accept that i am not fond of that aspect of the movie.

I can see that is where our discussion is going which is fine with me.
I've enjoyed the exchange about the movie and I'm fine with eventually agreeing to disagree.
Still I have some more words to add.

I know you will argue to the utmost in favour for this film. Thats fine. I have no issue with you loving it.

My argument is not based on a blind love for this film.
I have no problems with finding flaws with "Prometheus".
I can argue strongly to criticize this movie.
- But imo what you have presented is not a flaw.

Im not suggesting thaf Weyland can kill and do what he likes in that sense. I meant that it is his mission at the end of the day. That is not arguble. So he had overall power to dictate the terms

* I am not persuaded by your argument. Of course an employer can dictate terms of employment within the law.
But what imo you have not seen in the movie is that part of Weyland's terms of employment is to have a servant poison an employee with no consequences.
- Considering that this is part of Weyland's unlawful work environment, you have not refuted my argument that criminals (like Weyland) can try to mask their identities to escape detection which is what Weyland did in the film. 
Criminals may try to hide (change identities, fake a death) to escape from the consequences of their wrong behavior.

Im not telling you that you are wrong. Im just saying i dont like it,

OK, but I'm answering your question, why does Weyland fake his death?
It isn't about liking or disliking imo. It's that what he does is logical imo.

The significant other was killed due to infection and Vickers not wanting him on the ship.

I'll be more precise.
* What is imo the crime in the film?
- David, who is Weyland's property and is under Weyland's control, (as discussed by Shaw) poisoned Holloway causing a completely mutilating, inclurable disease/transformation.
- This crime occurred soon after David had a chat with Weyland where David was getting orders from Weyland.
- Vickers freaked out at this moment (afraid of what Weyland was up to) but Vickers could not stop Weyland's pawn, David, from following Weyland's orders.
- David then poisoned Holloway. David was manipulating a drunk Holloway and could get him to say whatever David wanted.
No matter what, David was going to poison Holloway.
* Who is legally responsible for this crime? Not David. He is a machine owned by Weyland and is under Weyland's control as stated in the film.
- Weyland is the legally responsible person involved and he would know that.

* In a crew situation there is always the danger of mutiny. And a leader giving orders which leads to the wrongful poisoning of a crew member could cause a mutiny.
- A criminal leader may want to escape detection in such situations which is what Weyland did. 

That is why imo Weyland faked his death.
- This isn't about some gut level emotion on my part.

Ps, thanks for your thoughts on the other movies mate.

You're welcome. 

What about Predator. Do you hold that in high regard ?

Yes I do. I like a lot of science fiction movies and "Predator" is #40 on my top ~50 list.

I honestly dont believe you have blind love for the film.  You like it on its merits and defend what you like.

The question as to why fake his death  was more rhetorical lol. I know why and have the same the thoughts as you do as to why he does this. I just dont like this part of the movie.

Cool. We shall agree do disagree.

Its nice to have a healthy debate about something without having childish comments and rudeness so thank you for that.

Im interested in how you rank the movies overall. Could you list me, from best to worst in your opinion, all the movies frpm the series including the AvP's and Predator flicks. 

[bb-15]

Its nice to have a healthy debate about something without having childish comments and rudeness so thank you for that.

Yes, that's what I prefer.
There were only two critics of "Prometheus" on IMDb where we were able to keep things cordial over the years and we parted on good terms.
It has been much easier exchanging opposing views about the movie on this site.

I just dont like this part of the movie.

Cool. We shall agree do disagree.

And that's fine.
The two IMDb critics of the film that I mentioned also were very familiar with the Agatha Christie source material ("And Then There Were None") and adaptations of the idea such with Sherlock Holmes movies/TV.
But their conclusion was the same as yours, they just didn't like that story idea being used in "Prometheus".

Im interested in how you rank the movies overall. Could you list me, from best to worst in your opinion, all the movies frpm the series including the AvP's and Predator flicks.

Fine.
I've already mentioned my ranking order of;
1. "Alien"
2. "Aliens"
3. "Prometheus"
4. "Predator"

* Below those I bunch together 3 movies with about the same rating.
5. "Alien 3: Assembly Cut"
6. "Alien: Resurrection" (theatrical cut)
7. "Predators"
- I've already commented on the 2 Alien movies.
With "Predators" I thought the cast was good. I appreciated the outer space setting instead of Los Angeles in "Predator 2".
This allowed a reveal of more of the Predator culture. And that fits my enjoyment of exploring the world of science fiction/fantasy franchises.
- That said; "Predators" doesn't come close to the tense hunting in "Predator".   

* Next level imo are 2 films.
8. "AVP: Aliens vs Predator"
9. "Predator 2"
I put these together for opposite reasons.
- AVP has a top notch story with poor execution; subpar direction, cast, special effects, story location.
- P2 by contrast does a lot of things right but the story/dialogue is often poor.
Still AVP is a guilty pleasure. I'd much rather watch it over P2. AVP has ideas from the production of "Alien". (Some of these same ideas were used in "Prometheus".) AVP also has details of the Predator culture (though putting the pyramid in a different place would have been better imo).
Also, to me Paul W.S. Anderson is not a very good director (though "Event Horizon" was decent horror SF). I've never been a fan of his "Resident Evil" movies for instance.
- Cameron and Scott turned down directing AVP. This shows the need for a top notch director who has control for this kind of film to succeed imo.

10. "AVP: Requiem";
A person on IMDb rated the AVP movies higher than "Prometheus".
AVP2 uses the teenage slasher/B movie, monster in a small town trope.
That just doesn't interest me unless it is in a classic film. And AVP2 is no classic imo.

* Feel free to share your views about the Alien, Predator, AVP franchises.

[Russ840]

Nice list.

Mine is as follows. Similar to yours in that I  group them together. 

The top three are amazing. I love them all. They are in order of liking and are all in my top 5 movies ever. They are not seperated by much. Alien ever so slightly creeps above Aliens.

1. Alien
2. Aliens
3. Predator.

The next teir

4. Predator 2
5. Alien 3
6. Prometheus

I think these are good films with many flaws. Again in order of preference. Prometheus and Alien 3 are very close and i would say they can swap places depending on my mood lol.

7. Alien Resurrection
8. Predators.

Still good movies in my opinion. I treat Resurrection as its own thing. Its not part of Ripley's story in the first three. To me it plays and feels like an Alien comic come to life. I appreciate it on this merit. I love comics.

Now the last two, for me are where the series is bad. I really dislike them. Everything up till now is good or better.

9. AvP.

Such a let down. Should never have been on earth. Soft and misguided.

10. AvP R

I consider this to be an insult to human intelligence lol. I cannot watch it. Just awful fan fiction.

[bb-15]

9. AvP.

Such a let down. Should never have been on earth. Soft and misguided.

The island in Antarctica never worked for me. I was thinking of different places of where to put the island but none of my ideas are as good as yours.
Putting AVP on another planet is a good solution. It reminds me of "Stargate";
- On another planet the Predators can build as many pyramids as they want (nuke as many xenomorphs as they want) to play their war games and run their experiments.

10. AvP R

I consider this to be an insult to human intelligence lol. I cannot watch it. Just awful fan fiction.

Yes, it's so silly it's like a spoof of an Alien/Predador movie; it could be made for laughs and called, 'Scary Movie Meets Alien'.

I treat Resurrection as its own thing. Its not part of Ripley's story in the first three. To me it plays and feels like an Alien comic come to life. I appreciate it on this merit. I love comics.

I can agree with this for the theatrical cut of "Resurrection". The Special Edition goes too far with the Terry Gillium style of humor which the director, Jean-Pierre Jeunet, loves. 
The theatrical version can feel like a comic. The horror element often isn't that strong and the details of the xenomorph aren't well developed and the world building is limited. I can enjoy it as long as I go with the humor, the odd nature of it and keep my expectations low.

* Thanks for the list.

[SM]

What in the Special Edition tipped it into Gilliam?

[bb-15]

What in the Special Edition tipped it into Gilliam?

For the connection I suggest first;
- Look at the trailer (on YouTube) from "The City of Lost Children" co-directed by Jean-Pierre Jeunet.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa7oVPru4J8

- The influence of Gilliam's "Brazil" is very strong with Jeunet's movie imo.
Here is the beginning of "Brazil" on YouTube.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=04BMSMHuyEs

- Go to one of the first scenes in "Brazil" at 2:19 to 2:42.
It has an actor trying to hit a bug and finally crushing it. The bug's guts land inside a printer.

- Then go to the start of "Ressurection Special Edition" for the credits scene.
We see a bug and an actor crushes it and then uses the bug's guts as a spit ball which go through a straw and land (splat!) against a window.
Similar comic idea from "Brazil" which doesn't help set the right creepy tone of "Ressurection".

- With the "Ressurection" theatrical cut, the credits are put over what looks like distorted flesh with body parts emerging. That represents the radical genetic manipulation done at the government base. It's more effective to me. 

[SM]

I'm quite familiar with the films of both Terry G and JPJ; I didn't find the gunner spitting on the window was especially Gilliamesque though.

[SpeedyMaxx]

I do think there is a bit of a Gilliam-esque influence to Jeunet's work, his sensibility and his aesthetic. But I also think it's all his own - he's a gorgeous visualist. There's a lot of the French genre guys like that. I think it rubbed people the wrong way but I have a lot of love for his work and for AR, warts and all. You can't say they didn't try something different.

[SiL]

Alien is what happens when all the right creative people are in a room together on the right project. Resurrection is what happens when all the wrong people are together on the wrong one.

[bb-15]

There's a lot of the French genre guys like that. I think it rubbed people the wrong way but I have a lot of love for his work and for AR, warts and all. You can't say they didn't try something different.

I'm glad you brought up the controversy over the reaction to "Resurrection".
Chris Stuckman's review of AR is a continual repetition that the entire film is terrible which to me is unfair.
As you put it AR tries something different with the Alien franchise. And imo with the theatrical cut, the film pretty much succeeded.
- One of the things that AR does is introduce some more science fiction ideas into an Alien movie, specially genetic engineering/manipulation.
In AR that involves xenomorph/human hybrids. 
- That SF idea connects a bit to "Prometheus where the Engineers show great skill with genetic engineering with the manipulation of life on planets and using a substance to quickly change a worm, a human (or a human egg) into a monster.



PS.

I do think there is a bit of a Gilliam-esque influence to Jeunet's work, his sensibility and his aesthetic. But I also think it's all his own...

Agreed. Whatever influence Gilliam has with Jeunet, Jean-Pierre has taken his own path as a filmmaker.

[TizerisT]

It would better without David imo. His big bouncy fringe and flip-flops are completely at odds with the dark, edgy vibe of the series. The most pansy character in all the movies. Get rid.

[426Buddy]

It would better without David imo. His big bouncy fringe and flip-flops are completely at odds with the dark, edgy vibe of the series. The most pansy character in all the movies. Get rid.

David is one of the most interesting characters in the whole series and is the best thing about Prometheus imo.