What if Gorman was a veteran?

[RagingDragon]

[Crazy Rich]

http://static4.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/OP+I+ll+be+your+first+mate+_720c9a14df436fda62043d8f339fed6d.jpg

"Lieutenant Gorman ice cream!"

[RagingDragon]

http://static4.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/OP+I+ll+be+your+first+mate+_720c9a14df436fda62043d8f339fed6d.jpg

"Lieutenant Gorman ice cream!"

This is fo mah niggazy locked awa. No matter how many niggaz think we aint tha shit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irwrVcDTH54#

[LastSurvivor92]

I believe Gorman probably would of had much more expierience and would of been aware of the nuclear processors and the danger they cause. Taking the weapons away from the soilders was a mistake and really hurt the position in which the marines had with the aliens. I think Gorman as a Veteran would of been able to still lead the marines into the nuclear processor with weapons more strategically and with more success than they did with him in the film.

[SM]

If they blew a big enough hole in the cooling system, the AP may have overheated and exploded before the troops could be dusted off.

Besides Dietrich, Frost, Apone and Drake were all armed anyway and they died.  If they had pulse rifles they still would've died.  Crowe and Wierzbowski may have survived as there wouldn't have been an ammo bag to explode in their face.

[Kimarhi]

If there was a situation where it nullified my opportunity to use weapons as a commander, I'd probably have everybody head back to the APC or Dropship to resupply.

LT felt the time pressures (from no one) and decided to press on.  Apone should've stood up for his guys.  To me that's one was more on Apone than it was Gorman. 

There IS a rank structure, doesn't mean you have to go with every bad idea. 

[SiL]

If there was a situation where it nullified my opportunity to use weapons as a commander, I'd probably have everybody head back to the APC or Dropship to resupply.

LT felt the time pressures (from no one) and decided to press on.  Apone should've stood up for his guys.  To me that's one was more on Apone than it was Gorman. 

There IS a rank structure, doesn't mean you have to go with every bad idea.

Even if you were only a few meters from target and weren't expecting a fight?

They were practically tripping on the colonists when they got the disarm order. Why would he call them all the way back to the APC and redeploy when they were right there?

The only really dumb thing to me was collecting magazines. Them being under the primary heat exchangers was only an issue where the colonists were, once they backed out surely they could've resumed use of their pulse rifles?

[Kimarhi]

Your always prepared for the worst my broheim.  Stepping into an alien environment with 150plus non moving colonist unarmed is not preparing for the worst.

For the Aliens flamethrowers are alright because Aliens can't shoot anything, but your not prepared for the worst with flamethrowers because some haji could be in the Alien hive with a sniper rifle.

Realistically, at least in my experience you would call for a resupply.  At least everybody would be armed when they went in.

[SiL]

For the Aliens flamethrowers are alright because Aliens can't shoot anything, but your not prepared for the worst with flamethrowers because some haji could be in the Alien hive with a sniper rifle.

I think it's safe to forgive Gorman for not anticipating a radical with a sniper-rifle on an off-world colony that had nothing more than small arms...

At least everybody would be armed when they went in.

Everybody was armed when they went in. Everybody not carrying incinerators had pistols, Hicks had his shotgun.

[Kimarhi]

For the Aliens flamethrowers are alright because Aliens can't shoot anything, but your not prepared for the worst with flamethrowers because some haji could be in the Alien hive with a sniper rifle.

I think it's safe to forgive Gorman for not anticipating a radical with a sniper-rifle on an off-world colony that had nothing more than small arms...

At least everybody would be armed when they went in.

Everybody was armed when they went in. Everybody not carrying incinerators had pistols, Hicks had his shotgun.

Shotgun and pistols are non weapons in the military.  Some guys don't even carry them because they never anticipate having to use them.  You have to be within twenty yards for them to be accurate unless your a super highspeed ranger or delta type.

It doesn't matter what you believe, it matters what is taught to you doctrinally.  I've never seen anywhere where going into a potential combat situation with half of your units combat capability was disabled was an acceptable choice in the decision making process.

That would be like just walking around with pistols and shotguns when the opponents had just rocks.  If there is twelve of them no problem.  If there are 250 of them coming at you in a mob?  Bad choice my friend, your going to get brained.

We were in a FRIENDLY country to the USA and all of us carried rifles, full battle rattle, pistols AND might or might not have imported heavier weapons than we were allowed too because you never know when friendlies could become hostiles and you would need to stack them up like cordwood. 

Again, Apone should've been like wait a minute boss, think about what your doing, and if the LT still insisted just had everybody show up at the APC and claimed bad comms.

Its still believable either way, and Apone even tries to bring it up.  I just feel that a platoon sgt would've been like naw bruh. 

[SiL]

Shotgun and pistols are non weapons in the military.  Some guys don't even carry them because they never anticipate having to use them.  You have to be within twenty yards for them to be accurate unless your a super highspeed ranger or delta type.

Considering the sub-level, they were definitely going to be within 20 yards of something

Again, Apone should've been like wait a minute boss, think about what your doing, and if the LT still insisted just had everybody show up at the APC and claimed bad comms.

Apone also didn't strike me as the kind of person who'd walk away when he's just about to get where he needs to be.

That's the issue for me. If they realised halfway down the stairs that they weren't going to be able to use their weapons, sure. If they'd just stepped onto the sub-level, sure. But they were meters out and all they had to do was see a colonist.

I can't argue the point with you because you obviously know more than I do, but it seems really, really f**king dumb to do a full fall back when you're practically tripping over your target, you still have weapons suitable for close-combat, and especially when there might be a time element (Ripley's report was on disc, they knew about the gestation period, etc. Going back to resupply, for all they knew, could have been the difference between getting a colonist out of there, and them dying.)

[Kimarhi]

Shotgun and pistols are non weapons in the military.  Some guys don't even carry them because they never anticipate having to use them.  You have to be within twenty yards for them to be accurate unless your a super highspeed ranger or delta type.

Considering the sub-level, they were definitely going to be within 20 yards of something

Again, Apone should've been like wait a minute boss, think about what your doing, and if the LT still insisted just had everybody show up at the APC and claimed bad comms.

Apone also didn't strike me as the kind of person who'd walk away when he's just about to get where he needs to be.

That's the issue for me. If they realised halfway down the stairs that they weren't going to be able to use their weapons, sure. If they'd just stepped onto the sub-level, sure. But they were meters out and all they had to do was see a colonist.

I can't argue the point with you because you obviously know more than I do, but it seems really, really f**king dumb to do a full fall back when you're practically tripping over your target, you still have weapons suitable for close-combat, and especially when there might be a time element (Ripley's report was on disc, they knew about the gestation period, etc. Going back to resupply, for all they knew, could have been the difference between getting a colonist out of there, and them dying.)

Your not wrong, both ways that it went/could've went could've actually happened.  But Apone didn't strike me as being a yes man one that follows orders without ever saying no.


Rescuing civilians would still be the priority, but what would the Marines have done if lets say there were fifty civilians in there that they had to dehive from the walls with no weapons to defend themselves with?

You are kind of looking at it in hindsight.  You prepare for a situation out of whatever intel you have, but you ALWAYS prepare for the worst.  A full combat load is 210 rounds for a rifleman, but how many soldiers do you think actually carry only the minimum rounds?  They went in half cocked and got trounced.  Had they went in half cocked where there were some civs to actually save they still would've got trounced and probably cost the lives of innocents.  They actually hurt their ability to save civilians by going in the way they did.

By actually taking time to resupply to where they can all be properly armed then there is still the great possibility of being trounced.  But they would've been better prepared. 

Pistols and shotguns just aren't great weapons.  They don't have the suppression capability or the stopping power of carbines or rifles.  And at least with a flamethrower you can suppress areas even if you can't suppress individuals.

I think a more experienced LT would've probably better prepared his men for the situation.  And an actual combat arms platoon sergeant would point out the error of a young lts ways.

BUT that's not what happened and its still believable.  Most of the young lts I've seen in field artillery are just like Gorman.  And there are plenty of people who just say yes to anything ordered to them.  My own sergeant in Ethiopia was one of those guys.

I doubt it, but its possible that the APC/Dropship only came down to the planet with their issued weapons.  But we are just a state funded fighting organization and we had a rack of extra m4s, extra saws, extra 240s, two ma deuces, and some shotguns just in case.

The Army always deals in double redundancy, I just don't see it changing in the future.  But I've been wrong before.

[SiL]

The marines wouldn't know about dehiving civvies. Ripley's report wouldn't have mentioned cocooning, going by the theatrical cut of Alien, which Cameron was working from.

[Kimarhi]

True.

But the point was that they went in with half of their weapon capabilities trying to save as many civilians as they could.  When you have half of anything your not going to be able to function as well.  You get in a pitched firefight trying to maneuver unarmed civilians around with very limited ammo, I just don't see how anyway could've not ended in disaster unless the Aliens were actually oversized roaches. 

I just don't buy it.

Watch Raging come in here and tell me he would've taken the hive with a radio and a boot knife.

[RagingDragon]

 

My personal plan is to set up a cordon outside the perimeter of the hive.

Send in Dietrich, Crowe, Hicks, to see whats up.

Only Hicks comes back.

When I was in ranger school, one of the basics of mission planning involves an ORP. It's called an 'objective rally point.' It's a spot you stop at before a mission, if you're in the field, to get your shit together and go through your plan one last time.

This is where you drop your rucks, where the security stays put, where you run to if everything goes to f**king hell.

Which it usually does.

In the least, they would've had a few guys at some sort of ORP, especially on the call of  'no ammo.' This makes Apone look bad, but its a movie, but no platoon sergeant on EARTH will send in their entire element weapons-free to a f**king potential ambush. No one.

But that's where we buy the movie. It was well-done, so f**k it.