Fox Talks Prometheus Sequel

Started by ikarop, Aug 01, 2012, 04:01:38 PM

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Fox Talks Prometheus Sequel (Read 89,239 times)

eyeballkid

eyeballkid

#270
If Fox wants to do this "right" it should be scary, with believable characters, and for once let the director do what he wants to. But, Fox doesn't work that way.

SM

SM

#271
 :laugh:

Yeah, Riddles is so Fox's bitch.  They never let him do anything...

Highland

Highland

#272
Quote from: eyeballkid on Aug 30, 2012, 02:08:45 AM
If Fox wants to do this "right" it should be scary, with believable characters, and for once let the director do what he wants to. But, Fox doesn't work that way.

Scott has stated many time's this is the movie he wanted to make.

EDIT SM in before  :P

Toy

Toy

#273
I understand some of the hate this movie gets for the flat characters, but what if that's all part of the themes and will be more clear as time goes on?  What if Ridley meant for us to eventually see things through David's perspective?  Viewing humans as foolish compared to him; connected to why he wants to kill his father/the king and is so ambiguous.  He feels humans are too quick to act without thinking/perceiving the consequences like a robot would, he also feels humans make bad decisions quickly and rely on answers being given to them or handed to them from above by a king.  He feels some of them are helpless without Weyland's company being the leading power on Earth..

David may be starting to feel... while most of the other characters are starting to not feel/ not show much emotion, and starting to lose faith in things under the surface.  While still trying to remain in control and display confidence in what they know and feelings/beliefs about what is going on/happened/may happen.  However, the characters end up displaying what is actually ego, or sometimes falsely justified egos that are displayed through their actions/lines and shattered by some of their eventual outcomes (Vickers).  Janek has few illusions, he puts up the Christmas tree as a ceremonial thing and explains it as such, stating it's to remind them of the passage of time. Even some of the editing choices are deliberate I feel, to keep the mystery about what David will do.

What if it's part of how Ridley envisioned humans would become in that time period?  Where science leads the way and the archaeologists depend on machines that make their jobs even easier, carrying a portable carbon dater.  They are putting faith in science but not asking the fundamental archaeological questions they should be asking. Instead they ask David if he can read the hieroglyphs and he says he believes he can.

It was a golden age for Weyland Corp, where it had all these wonderful gifts their brilliant yet somewhat irrational corporate head created for them and left them with.  Sometimes when an influential king dies and no one up to the task can replace him the kingdom will enter a state of decline and start to crumble or disintegrate. Like the Engineer genetics after affected by the goo it disintegrates and recombines with other elements or kingdoms to create the Weyland-Yutani Empire. These humans were living in a time where things were a little bit better, nicer and shinier for the Weyland kingdom.  After the headless kingdom breaks down and almost completely disintegrates it'll need to be combined with another kingdom to form the Weyland-Yutani empire. A larger, more militaristic version of the previous incarnation.  That has lost some of it's shininess due to a hidden war.. and the need to expand, where humans have returned to a more balanced, less egotistical, sometimes emotionally cold state.

This is all related to how Lindelof said the movie would be all about "getting inside the robot's head". His inner desires and feelings/ attitudes towards the crew..  Maybe Ridley set out to partially displease us with the human characters and some of their choices/actions for now, and to please us with David's performance because he'll be a very big part of the series and is the key to it all.  Fassbender's performance/the character of David is probably the thing that might make even people who partially disliked Prometheus come back for a second helping in Paradise since we know David is alive, and Fassbender is on contract to keep playing him, or other incarnations of the character.

Ridley may have wanted us to start to like/trust David's words, or to distrust him completely, or at least see his view on some things. With many viewing him as the best part of the movie, to make what David eventually does that much more powerful.  Even though we have hints that he can be perceived as evil while under Weyland's control, we don't know David's thoughts on the matter other than vague hints about wanting to kill Weyland.  None of the other characters except Shaw, Holloway and Vickers were given much emotion or depth on purpose..

There may be a reason why most of the human characters don't show much emotion and some of their lines come off as flat or robotic. Or quoted from pop culture of the past or movies. David tries to hide his artificial emotions and act like he's not developing some free will, and personality, but we know he's an android who has artificial feelings and is emotional.  Holloway didn't know this, and had a hate on for robots, he wasn't forgetting he was a robot. He was reminding him to be a dick about it and was surprised this robot was a dick back... And seemed to be almost ticked off at Holloway, choosing him to test the goo on.  David may dislike humans to a certain extent because he feels he's superior to them.

David's "a superior species no doubt" statement can be read as being sarcastic, and possibly holding a double meaning implying he feels it's easy to be superior to humans and that androids already are. Holloway lets his guard down when David comes to bring him the booze, playing nice, and pretending to help him feel better about not finding any Engineers alive.  Holloway still tests/teases him as he accepts the drink and is showing some of his irrational distrust for androids.  Holloway also feels more than other characters, but hides it well and is the true parallel opposite of David and not Shaw. He feels an irrational distrust that may be justified because he doesn't know what's up with this particular android.  Earlier in the movie Holloway's afraid that they're making them more and more real, to which David responds "not too real I hope" because David doesn't wanna be like the humans.. We're supposed to dislike Holloway's character for now... and enjoy David's character more.  All part of the trick.

The archaeologists were hoping David would just tell them about the hieroglyphs since they knew he spent time learning.  Shaw says "David I hope you can read that" because she has no clue, possibly hoping later that he has some answer for the urns and everything else too.  Because they sure don't analyze it for long. They just gloss over everything, not asking the pertinent archaeological questions about the mural, while relying on/believing most everything David says.  Which is not a lot on purpose... to avoid lying.  The mural changing and the storm approaching stops them from asking for his interpretation as he was busy looking at the urns.  And David has to reveal the truth /his true meaning/inner desires, at least partially, through his statements that hold multiple meanings.  But Shaw is the only one who begins to understand this through her experiences with him. And like David Shaw believes she knows much more than she's saying.

Shaw had definitely grown to distrust him after the squid thing, but she doesn't even want to fully trust his words at the end.  David's the only one who shows a true almost human reaction to seeing her bloody in the doorway, and is probably actually the most emotional of all the crew, even though he hides it well. Except possibly Shaw who didn't lose her faith, or her life because her choices were actually guided by a balanced mixture of knowledge and belief/feelings.  However, David's the only one who can take her where she feels she must go. And he's the only one who even says anything to Shaw after the squid incident, even though he's being sarcastic and outright lying through a double statement about not knowing she had it "in her".

David's actions put the squid in her, and he told her it was in her, but he was under Weyland's orders the whole time.
Maybe he was actually amused that she was fighting back against what Weyland had programmed him to do.  Which was to freeze her and take her back to Earth, before she wakes up, breaks free from whats being done to her by this irrational leader, and takes the thing out from within her. David instantly knows this is what she must have done and says "I didn't know you had it in you".

Here he's practicing lying about not knowing the squid was inside her because he now chooses what to believe and admires Shaw, in a way, for her dream teaching him this.  If he chooses what he believes he can tell a partial lie, because his built in artificial emotions make him unable to tell a complete lie, sort of like Pinnochio.  But now the artificial emotions have made David almost a real boy, despite the fact Weyland thought he had no soul. Weyland gave him his ability to develop a soul/free-will and it was partially Weyland's undoing.

There's no reason for him to add a double meaning here other than to practice his form of a lie about not knowing it was inside her when he knows she knows he already knew to some extent (lol is this too complicated?). David may also feel guilty and this is an attempt to cover up the fact that he knows exactly how it got inside her.  Shaw chooses what to believe and how to act based on a balanced mixture of logic/knowledge and science vs. faith/feelings/beliefs/gut reactions (making her survive where Vicker's doesn't).  However, part of the lesson is that sometimes you can't completely trust science, and sometimes you can't completely trust belief/feelings/gut reactions.  David may be unaware of just how real he is, and that his feelings/beliefs are a lot more real than he thinks.  Influencing his views even when he doesn't choose what to believe/report/ reveal.

David thinks he knows and that his words are the truth in some cases, making him just as egotistical as some of the characters in the movie. When really the only one who should have a big ego was the man who brought them all there and made all that possible through his achievements. He created David who has now developed a pseudo-ego problem or superiority complex because of his superiority to humans and influence from his father. Weyland had the right to be egotistical because all of his past achievements led him to that point, however he was still following what he believed, that they were gods.  He was being too irrational and didn't have David's extra knowledge about the fact there was only bio-weapons there.

The humans may have made a mistake in making David too real. So real that he has chosen what to believe and cannot be controlled after Weyland is gone.  The artificial emotions are influencing him and influencing his observations and analyses.

When forming a theory or thesis and then drawing conclusions you have to separate science from feelings/beliefs. David is not doing this... and may be partially unaware that his thesis is just a thesis as well, because of how much of his own interpretation went into his statements. David is now choosing what to believe like Shaw, and is reporting it as the truth. We can't trust anything he said to be completely true.

Shaw has a balance of knowledge and belief that is like David's but she almost always knows that she lets her beliefs influence her theories and combines them when she needs to, while still separating them and accepting the evidence that the Engineers are us.  Her question about "who created them then?" is a logical one that's inspired by her belief/faith. She allows both sides of her character (scientist and believer) to mix, combines it at the correct times and ends up rewarded for it.  David takes an interest in this.  And her ability to let her instincts take over while still remaining logical.

Shaw lets her gut reactions take over and does the logical thing at the same time which is rolling out of the way of the rolling Juggernaut. Vickers spends too long running straight ahead and lets the irrational/chaos side take over, clouding her judgement.  When the logical thing to do was to roll out of the way, to break from a linear path and allow her instincts to take over, but she was too busy panicking.  Letting her feelings that she was done for take over, and not thinking fast enough or allowing her gut reactions to keep her alive.  Because Vickers is all about order and logic, but also contains elements of chaos/the illogical. She runs from and tries to keep order over the situation, but is not actually in charge.  Vickers eventually succumbs to the chaos side and can't combine both to think on her feet. She's all about planning too and trying to maintain her plan. Vickers couldn't control herself/maintain order/think logically or react appropriately in the chaotic situation and was relying more on the basic reaction of just running.  She never thought to, or immediately reacted to, break from her straight line/linear thinking because she can't handle this much chaos, and so she gets flattened.

I believe David is the standout performance because him and Shaw are basically the only ones who care about things for what they perceive to be the right reasons, and show true emotions in their performances. All the other characters have become a certain way during Weyland's reign because of his influence on culture.. His subjects are almost robotic slaves to money or something else: themselves.  Holloway is all about ego and his belief that he was correct that they weren't gods, looking for evidence to prove he was right "gods don't build in straight lines".  Holloway was selfishly in it for the glory at first.  Shaw actually wanted to know.  The humans are starting to become less emotional because they are becoming more egotistical like Weyland, the creator of the golden age for Weyland corp and for the Earth.  All because they're handed everything at this time, and see themselves as gods/kings because of mankind's achievements and advancements. Which really came from Weyland, almost all of them that make up their futuristic tech.

It wasn't humans as a whole who developed all the futuristic things used in the the series, it was Peter Weyland who was a head of his time.   This will change over time as all things do.  After a king dies someone else will step up to the throne and change the kingdom, even if it's minor changes. The Weyland company/kingdom changes shape drastically between Prometheus and Alien and becomes the Weyland-Yutani Empire. After a series of events happens that are covered up by the new management.

Here, characters are leaning too far one way or the other and put too much faith in things like the instruments of science they use and rely on, and money.  It's not even about science vs religion when u apply it to every character, it's more about the logical vs the illogical, order vs chaos, and rational vs irrational behavior. It's about knowledge & belief or feelings/gut reactions much more than strictly being about science and religion.

David is a mixture of these traits because he's an extremely intelligent instrument of science who has been given artificial emotion and understands feelings.  He's one of the three semi-balanced characters who have a mix of both sides (him, Vickers and Holloway), but he leans heavier on the knowledge side of things; while Shaw is a more balanced mixture who has faith that answers are out there, and accepts the scientific evidence while combining that with her beliefs to reform her theories.  Asking very valid questions inspired by her beliefs/feelings.  She puts her faith in answers. David puts his beliefs/feelings in his answers.  Her intuitions and justifiable chaotic actions in breaking free from those who wished to freeze her and extracting the trilobite herself leads her down the right paths that allow her to get out of her situation, to survive and not be frozen. Her intelligence and logical side leads her straight to the medpod and she quickly finds a way to extract the thing from herself even though it was designed for males.

To me this is the most powerful scene of the series.  She's facing death and being treated as part of an experiment, used as a vessel to carry a sample back for the company. She suspects this, and knows there's always a chance that they might not be able to get it out without killing her or allowing it to kill her.  She believes something about the unknown, knows she has to fight. So she fights back and she removes the creature from herself in this ship where people don't care about others. It's about sooo much more under the surface, tying into the male patriarchy themes, coming from the king themes the uber male engineers, and Weyland's preference for a son + Weyland's disapproval of Vickers and the line of succession theme.  Usually after the king dies the prince gets to rule..

Was David ok with the fact that Weyland made him do his evil bidding if he has artificial feelings and can understand emotion? Since he wanted to kill his creator, or implies this, I'm thinking he had some problems with the way Weyland ran things.

Was he hiding his emotions (misleading Holloway about not being as real as he actually is) and the fact that he grew over the 2.5 years as he was developing inner desires and a personality? Is it part of David and Ridley's trick in Prometheus. Ridley not minding that to tell his story some of the human characters might be perceived as irrational or chaotic in this time period, or is it that they put too much faith in science/past experience/knowledge and belief when dealing with an unknown, like Millburn does?  David not minding that he has feelings/can't lie and that it hurts him. Because he can't feel true pain like in Weyland's match trick when he quotes Lawrence of Arabia.  Indicating both have a preference for the same movie. Some of the father's personality is in the son.  David not showing his true emotions/feelings is tied into this, and he knew he had to carry out Weyland's orders against his will and couldn't lie, but also didn't mind because he had a bigger trick in mind.  And he found a way to not show his true feelings. To not show that his programming hurts him.  Again it's emotional pain/ artificial guilt and a programmed inability to lie that David has to not mind.  He's referred to as immortal and feels no real physical pain. Ridley may not have minded that certain things would have to be cut so we would actually grow to like David more...

Did I put way too much work into this?

Before the Engineer awakening scene Shaw asks David what he'll do when Weyland's gone, and David says he imagines he'd be free then.

Ash 937

Ash 937

#274
Quote from: eyeballkid on Aug 30, 2012, 02:08:45 AM
If Fox wants to do this "right" it should be scary, with believable characters, and for once let the director do what he wants to. But, Fox doesn't work that way.

After Alien3, FOX gave a lot of creative control to Jeunet for Alien Resurrection and (apparently) to Scott for Prometheus.  Both of those films are very weak entries in the series, even weaker than Alien3 imho.  At this point, if FOX can squeeze out a sequel for Prometheus that is as good as Alien3 it would be some kind of a miracle.  I just don't see the source material of the first film having the strength to distribute itself to an entire trilogy.

Then again...

Nobody ever commended the original Saw for it's stellar storyline either and it's already got, what, six sequels now???  I'd bet that FOX would be pretty pleased with itself if Prometheus could have a smiliar legacy for them.  I'd also bet that they could get Lindelof to even write all of the scripts for them if it ever came to that.  ;D ;D ;D

But in all seriousness...

I'm beginning to think that the missing ingredient for success in the series (story-wise) is the involvement of Hill and Giler who have been absent from the franchise ever since Alien3.  Bring them back (even if it is just to consult) and I'd probably have more faith in the next film being any good.

SM

SM

#275
Hill and Giler were involved in Alien3 and look how that turned out.

As for Jeunet and Resurrection, I don't believe he had a lot of creative control.  Maybe over the look of it but not a stack else.  Pretty sure he saw himself as a director-for-hire compared to his own films.  Plus they kept ripping stuff out to reduce his budget.

On the other hand I believe there were people who commended Saw's stroyline.  It's a cracking setup if nothing else.

Darth Vile

Darth Vile

#276
Quote from: Malakak on Aug 30, 2012, 02:18:01 AM
I understand some of the hate this movie gets for the flat characters, but what if that's all part of the themes and will be more clear as time goes on?  What if Ridley meant for us to eventually see things through David's perspective?  Viewing humans as foolish compared to him; connected to why he wants to kill his father/the king and is so ambiguous.  He feels humans are too quick to act without thinking/perceiving the consequences like a robot would, he also feels humans make bad decisions quickly and rely on answers being given to them or handed to them from above by a king.  He feels some of them are helpless without Weyland's company being the leading power on Earth...

I see your point... but I don't think it's that conscious on Scott's part. I don't believe that Prometheus was conceived/designed to be a character piece that takes places in a 'real' universe. Hence - the characters are quite 2-dimensional and unrealistic. I don't say that as a criticism, but as merely an observation on the tone Scott sets in the movie. I know this has been said before – but Prometheus has the same sense of realism as Star Trek... again, I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing, but clearly it was intentional on Scott's part (IMHO) to make something much more 'science fiction' than 'science fact'. This is a common theme in Scott's movies, I think, where characters don't come across as overtly realistic... For example,  if you take a look at Alien, Bladerunner, Thelma and Louise and Gladiator, the characters are very stylised and often rather flat. Even in Alien, where there was quite a bit of room for actors to improvise and be more natural, they are often merely characatures and not really rounded e.g. the sardonic and rough engineers, the uptight scientist and the screaming/emotional woman.

IMHO - Scott is much more interested in the aesthetics of a piece rather than the emotonal/character elements... hence his movies are far more famous and merit worthy for their visuals/cinematography. Ultimately I don't think it's anything more complex than that.  :)


Quote from: Ash 937 on Aug 30, 2012, 06:04:09 AM
I'm beginning to think that the missing ingredient for success in the series (story-wise) is the involvement of Hill and Giler who have been absent from the franchise ever since Alien3.  Bring them back (even if it is just to consult) and I'd probably have more faith in the next film being any good.
I think Alien 3 is a train wreck of a film. Somewhere in all those great ideas there is something good wanting to break free. It was clear then that Fincher was a great director in the making... but as a film, I think it works less succesfully than AVP - unfortunately.

eyeballkid

eyeballkid

#277
My point is Fox wasn't sure about a R rated movie from the beginning. That is why we had a slowly evolving trailer that showed the Fifield monster, and yet he wasn't in the film. I also believe that the Hammerpede scene was abruptly cut because the scene just ends for no reason. What we got was a pg-13 movie with one scene that was "disturbing", but not really.

Marlowe

Marlowe

#278

There are more than one scene in the film that is disturbing in my point o view.Public in general will agree in two or three scenes.For us one was sure , and maybe we must consider the battle between the engineer and the Trilobite which bring us to Deacon of course.We must put ourselves in the position of the casual audience.

SM

SM

#279
The bit where Shaw cuts her baby out earns it an R easily.

PsyKore

PsyKore

#280
I saw people in the cinema cringing and gripping their chairs when the Shaw caesarian scene was happening. And then people were like, "is that an Alien???" :laugh:

Nightmare Asylum

Not gonna lie, I was one of the people cringing.

ShadowPred

ShadowPred

#282
Most women are not going to want to get pregnant after that.

Nightmare Asylum

I don't want to get pregnant after that. ;)

ShadowPred

ShadowPred

#284
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Sep 01, 2012, 04:31:39 PM
I don't want to get pregnant after that. ;)

Same here.

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