Was Burke working alone?

[Xenomrph]

Alien Theory reading out things other people have written AND Alien Trilogy.  It's hard to know how to counter these devastating blows from Ralfonso.

"No no you see, Alien Trilogy specifically says Burke was sent on orders, but then you've also got these Special Orders floating around too. And the Weyland Yutani Report is all tied in this too, not many people realize that. And the beacon got shut off multiple different ways... its's inconsistent, it doesn't make sense! But the business card... that's gonna blow this thing WIDE OPEN!"

[Local Trouble]

Sorry to disappoint you @Local Trouble

[ralfy]

the only knowledge that van leeuwen had came from the flight recorder of the narcacis as to the special order which was none.

wyr and cmtm are valuable resources. but even if the ipo presents them as canon and they contradict the movies the movies still win. still has the final say.

The Board of Inquiry got the landing location from the flight recorder in Ripley's lifeboat. That's how Burke was able to order the colony manager to send someone to investigate the site.

The problem is that the prequels are also movies, and it's possible that new movies would borrow from other authorized mediam which is what happened with the Mad Max franchise.

Finally, I forgot to mention that I misread the wiki entry which described the W-Y division: as the sources reveal, they are mentioned in different sources.

The bio-weapons division was mentioned twice in the movies, by Ripley in the first and by Burke in the second.

The Special Services division comes from Burke's calling card in the second movie, but it's not mentioned in the wiki. Since its actions are shadowy, then that's how the wiki describes it. OTOH, given Burke's actions in the movie, then we know what it does.

The manufacturing division is implicit in Cameron's audio commentary, where he claims that W-Y makes arms for the military.

The reverse-engineering division stems from a comic book about AvP, which states that the company was partly formed from one run by a crime family that had connections with the town in which the second AvP movie took place. In any event, that requires no proof as alien tech can only be turned into weapons and manufactured, etc., if it's reverse-engineered.

Report what??? Burke hadn't done anything illegal or tried to murder her at that point.

All he had done was send the colonists to investigate the ship. He had every right to do that because at the time he likely didn't fully believe Ripley and wasn't entirely convinced what she's says was there was there.

Sending the colonists to investigate a potentially deadly lifeform without any kind of warning is quite illegal.  If it wasn't illegal, he wouldn't then try to do other things that are illegal.

Yeah I suppose I've worded it badly. He'd obviously made extremely questionable decisions and given negligent orders to random colonists for a chance at personal gain.

I did say the Marines at that point wouldn't have killed him and that they would probably have let the authorities deal with him once they had all escaped. They only wanted to shoot him there and then because he tried to facehugger Ripley and Newt. The point is Ripley had likely told the Marines what Burke had been up to when she read the logs we just don't see it on screen. And they act appropriately really because at that point he hasn't literally tried to harm any of them directly.

This fulfills Cameron's intent in depicting "evil corporations." Given the examples that he gave, like industries profiting from the Vietnam War, what European corporations did in occupied India, and the Bhopal disaster, it appears that the question isn't whether or not what they're doing is illegal but whether or not they can get away with it.

Hence, the special order in the first movie, Burke's actions in the second, and the company's orders to the prisoners in the third.

If Ripley had told the Marines about what Burke did, then it's likely that they would have locked him up. In any event, it would not have mattered because the aliens found a way bypass their fortifications.

@oduodu doin' the lord's work over here.

And you know, Ralfy's position really makes a lot of sense if you don't think about it at all.

I have no horse in this race but the bio weapons division was mentioned by Ripley in the original film. So that existed before the events of Alien, not in response to the incident.

Indeed, and it was also mentioned by Burke in the second movie. That plus the prequels and the W-Y Report referring to the special order stemming from the prequels and Foster's novelization reveal that the company knew about the alien after the prequels and formed groups like a bio-weapons division in response to that. It's possible that Burke's division, which is revealed in the business card he gives to Ripley, was formed either before or after the events in the first movie took place, and was tasked with acquiring the organisms to be sent to R&D (i.e., the company labs mentioned by Bishop in the second movie), and in turn to be sent to bio-weapons, etc. (according to Burke in the second movie).

Also, here's something from Alien Theory which refers to the W-Y Report:

Alien Theory is a trash YouTube channel that you shouldn't be citing, and much of what you wrote out in that long word-salad is fan-fiction head-canon unsupported by any actual sources.

Not to mention nothing you wrote disputes the notion that Burke came up with and enacted his scheme on his own.

Here's a fun challenge: let's see if you can make your case by actually citing specific documents, page numbers, time stamps, you know, actual research. No more "I think this says" or "someone please check on this for me" or relying on fan wikis, YouTube videos, or website articles.

You said you considered this a "debate" based on "logic", maybe you should start acting like it.

Sound good?

Alternately you could just give me what I want and acknowledge that your conclusion is your head-canon (I.e.: your personal interpretation, what you personally choose to believe).

Also I'm still lollin' that you intentionally cited the Alien Trilogy videogame as a real source.

Oh yeah any lurkers who want to emptyquote this post, feel free.

AT refers to the WYR which explains how Burke planned the expedition, asking permission from WY to include Ripley in such and an experienced Marine team led by a lieutenant that he knew was a "team player". That means he was not working alone; rather, he was working for WY.

I'm going to need a citation on Burke asking permission to bring Ripley along (I doubt AT provides one). Be specific.

Also, once again, Burke working for the Company is not in dispute. However his doing so does not mean his actions in 'Aliens' were not done unilaterally, which is the point you're continually not grasping.

Edit— if AT is citing the statement of intent from the WYR, then that statement was made 200 years after Burke's actions and has no bearing on what they were doing or thinking in 2122 or 2179.

Also a reminder that the WYR is a questionable resource at times and should be treated with critical thinking skills.

Yep, Alien Theory is a known plagiarist. Loves to steal from our wiki.

I had to double take at Alien Trilogy being used as a source as well. Loved that game.

AT quotes from the WYR, which AFAIK is authorized. That means it counts as part of the franchise story. The same goes for the Alien trilogy game.

If I could type the pertinent contents of the WYR and share them here, I would, but since AT already did that, then I'll just refer to him. Feel free to claim what he said is not accurate.

The point isn't that Burke came up with the plan by himself. It's that according to several in two threads Burke was working without knowledge by W-Y because the company didn't care for alien organisms. For the same reason, Burke attended the hearing because W-Y didn't bother to send anyone, that he was planning to rent W-Y labs and hire scientists to study the facehuggers, etc.

In short, Burke was literally working alone, and if it involved anyone else, it didn't include any W-Y personnel.

In contrast, my argument is that Burke was Director of the Special Services Division, and his actions describe the goal of that division. In short, he was working for W-Y. That's why he tells Ripley that the bio-weapons division would make millions from the find. That's because the division he heads feeds content to that division. He wasn't working alone.

Cameron explains in his commentary that that's his goal: to depict "evil corporations" like W-Y.

Finally, I'll try to give page numbers, etc., but I don't have all of the material. But I think many of you do: perhaps you can help out. One already shared the audio commentary which supports my argument, and another shared the intro from a game which is authorized content and supports my point directly.




To clarify, the wiki points out that the reference to the bio-weapons division is seen in the movie: it's mentioned by Burke, who says that it will earn millions from the find. In addition, the same division is mentioned by Ripley in the first movie.

The wiki also states that James Cameron is also the source of the Special Services division. The confusion lies in the fact that Cameron is both the writer and the director of the movie. Since Burke's business card in the movie shows that, then the source is indeed Cameron. The role of the division is implied in the movie, and it will be explained below.

Third, the weapons manufacturing division is implied by Cameron in his audio commentary: W-Y makes weapons, etc., for the military.

Lastly, the reverse-engineering division is mentioned in one comic book about AvP. It's said that a crime family formed a business that would later be acquired by Weyland, from which the division is formed. The origin involves the town in which one AvP movie takes place.

Why mention the four divisions? The process would have worked this way:

Burke orders Bishop to have the facehuggers prepared for company labs. That means that the SS Division (not a Nazi military unit, OK? LOL) is some sort of umbrella group that supervises all research divisions (e.g., company labs) and sends them things like dangerous alien organisms. Why is the SS division described as shadowy? Because the movie reveals that Burke was planning to smuggle the organisms and avoid quarantine.

In short, Burke works for the company. The claim that he was probably going to rent company labs himself is ridiculous.

Next, Burke justifies his actions about sacrificing the colonists because the organisms are worth millions to the bio-weapons division, and that he and Ripley could become rich from the find. That also proves that he was working for the company and not by himself, i.e., with the intention to profit solely. Why? Because later, Ripley would point out that he was working "for a percentage." In short, he, Ripley (the sole survivor of the Nostromo crew), and even Newt (heir of whatever the Jordens get) would get a cut from the profits. The proof that Ripley gets a share is the flight recorder of the Nostromo and for Newt the order that led the Jordens to discover the derelict ship.

From the company labs, the facehuggers would be sent to bio-weapons for "manufacturing." Meanwhile, whatever is found in the derelict ship would be sent to company labs, too, including reverse-engineering. The result would then be sent to weapons manufacturing, for sales to the military, etc.

Additional points:

The Alien trilogy game states that Burke was ordered by the company to send an armed group and obtain the alien organisms. The W-Y Report states that he received approval from the company after advising them that they should obtain the organisms and secure the derelict ship in order to obtain first rights to the latter.

Is there proof in the movie that leads to that? Yes. Burke says that the company had only mineral rights to the rock in exchange for paying for the terraforming facilities. At the same time, W-Y brought in surveyors like the Jordens to determine the mineral resources of LV-426.

That means the first one finds that claims a stake on the derelict ship would own it. That's why according to the Report Burke wanted to send a team right away. The goal is to get whatever the colonists found from the ship and/or secure it, but only after securing the colony (because the transmitter went down). The company needed first rights on the derelict ship, and that would have meant continuing what the Jordens didn't finish.

This explains what Burke meant when he said that what he did was a "bad call." He chose between the ICC and ECA imposing quarantines and lockdowns, and with W-Y getting nothing, and W-Y acting quickly by sending even a survey team to the ship so that the company could stake a claim on it. (I think in River of Pain the Jordens express the point that with discoveries of large ores they could get a percentage and finally go home, and even retire early, rich.)

Why do we know that Burke didn't work alone in this? Because he was an employee of W-Y, and thus working on company time. That means he went with the armed group representing the company and wanted to make sure that company facilities were secure. That's why in the movie he tells Ripley what W-Y did for the colony and substantial investments in it via the terraforming facilities, etc. That's also why Ripley tells the Marines he was working for a "percentage." That's also why Burke tells Ripley that she, too, would be rich if the organisms, etc., are exploited. In short, they were all acting in the capacity as W-Y employees. Meanwhile, the Marines, including Bishop, who according to an CM Report, works for the military, also work for and with W-Y, as explained by Cameron in his audio commentary, where he patterned both on the U.S. military and the U.S. defense industry working together.

This explains the brief debate between Burke and Ripley, with Hicks: Burke argued that they could not nuke the facilities because they're company property. Ripley had to turn to Hicks and make him point out that because it's a military expedition, then it was Hicks' call as the highest ranking non-capacitated military personnel at that point. In any event, it turned out to be irrelevant after they discovered that the colony would blow up because of damage caused by the firefight in the alien hive.

Do the actions of the company reflect real life? Somone pointed out that what Cameron intended came true thirty years later. Actually, what Cameron intended was happening decades before he made the movie, and even a few years earlier. In the commentary, Cameron pointed out that his intention was to show that W-Y was like the Dutch East India Company, a private corporation charted by the British to exploit India while the British colonized it. He also wanted to show that W-Y was like the companies that exploited the Vietnam War, i.e., they sold weapons to the U.S. military. Finally, he said that he was reminded of the Bhopal disaster, where one battery maker opened factories in India, and which led to environmental disaster.

In short, he wanted to show that companies are "evil". That is, they're profit-making and promote pragmatic ethics: it's not a matter of what's good or bad but what's right or wrong. The first refers to what's most profitable to shareholders and the second the opposite. However, owners also face liabilities, which is why they have to do what's right following the definition just given but follow the law, if not hide anything done illegally.

Those who graduate beyond cartoons know about this and can easily add to examples given by Cameron in his commentary. Those who don't we see this as a movie between good and Dr. Evil.

In short, this is further proof that Cameron's intention is to show that Burke was not only not working alone, but that the real antagonist of the movie is W-Y. The company used Burke, the Nostromo crew, and the colonists to get what it wants, which is to monetize finds.

Did the company forget about what it wanted, as claimed in two threads? No, because it formed an SS and bio-weapons division before the second movie took place, and even formed the bio-weapons division much earlier, which is why Ripley mentioned it in the first movie. The first movie even showed that W-Y was using synths to ensure acquisition of such organisms, etc.

Worse, the game Alien: Isolation shows that the company encountered the same creatures three decades before the second movie takes place, and in another place. I won't give more details in order not to spoil it for those who want to play it, but it derails the claim that not only W-Y but even other companies, the military, and government agencies like the ICC and the ECA didn't know about aliens or didn't care. They were all lying to Ripley in the second movie when they said that they had not encountered creatures that she described or did not see any derelict ship on LV-426.

How do we reconcile this with the point that by the second movie, the company only knew that there was a derelict ship on LV-426 but couldn't find it? There are details in the game that may explain that.

The game, however, counters Cameron's story, as mentioned in the Star Log article, that they didn't find the ship because the distress beacon was damaged by volcanic activity. I can't think of any way to reconcile Cameron's backstory with the game.

Why did W-Y form a bio-weapons division and ordered synths to secretly ensure acquisition, even if it meant sacrificing personnel, as seen in the first movie? According to the W-Y report, it's because of what happened in the prequels, where they found out about the aliens, etc. That means the company never forgot about such from the beginning. They just wanted to make sure that the government didn't get in their way. Why? Because, as mentioned in two movies, the ICC doesn't allow transit of things like dangerous alien organisms, and even requires quarantine for those exposed to them. ECA would support them to protect colonists.

Both were represented in the movie. If so, then why didn't they take Ripley seriously if they had the location of the derelict ship via the flight recorder? The W-Y report explains that the recorder was doctored by W-Y. That means the only one who knew the location was the company.

Why did they decide to send an armed group that specialized in "bug hunts"? Someone argued that it merely refers to doing something like finding and fixing "bugs" in systems; in short, small inconveniences that lead to big problems. But the second movie doesn't show that. When Ripley shows unwillingness to join the team, Gorman explains to them that they have "state-of-the-art" firepower to deal with the creature that she described in her report. In short, they weren't just bringing bug spray. Later, even Hudson gives more details on the firepower that they were carrying.

Finally, some asides:

If they knew that they were dealing with something that they couldn't handle, then why didn't they bring a larger force and even more medical crew? I think it's because they thought that what happened to the colonists was the same as what happened to the Nostromo: only one infestation took place, and they were dealing with only one alien. Why only one? Because they probably figured that the colonists, after seeing one person facehugged, woudn't be so foolish as to go into the derelict ship and end up being facehugged, too. Or there might be a better explanation in the novel River of Pain.

That's why even with a Sulaco that could carry more personnel, they decided to send only one one squad with a medic and a tech, the company rep, and a consultant. They figured that the hundreds of colonists were able to hold off and even restrict only one alien to certain areas, and that they couldn't call back because the transmitter got damaged. Getting the alien alive or dead wouldn't matter if there were more eggs, etc., in the derelict ship, as Ripley reported given Kane's account.

I think that's about it: there's no further evidence needed to show that the claim that Burke was working alone and to profit solely is ridiculous. Multiple sources, including the movie itself, Cameron, and other authorized media, reveal otherwise.

[Xenomrph]

You wrote one hell of a Gish-gallop that's not worth refuting line by line, but needless to say you didn't actually respond to anything I'd said and none of the "evidence" you presented refuted the fact that Burke was working alone. All you did was repeat talking points you've said (and have been refuted) before as if saying them for the 37th time will suddenly make you right.

Alien Theory isn't a source, nor is a wiki, stop citing them unless you can fact-check them yourself. Every time you cite them we're just going to assume they (and your point) are false.

Nobody here is going to do your homework for you, start citing your sources properly.

You're in the movies subforum, stick to citing the movies, not "authorized media" (even though said authorized media doesn't help your case, and in fact refutes it).

Learn what head-canon means, because you're literally doing it (NOTE: THIS IS NOT A BAD THING).

the Alien Trilogy videogame is not a real source, for extremely obvious reasons. But if you want to include it in your head-canon, go nuts.

Edit— for a laugh, I ran your post through a word counter - 2,601 words. My brother in Christ, learn to write more succinctly. This isn't a college term paper where you need to pad your word count.

We can only pray that that's the definitive version of your manifesto and that you're never going to post it again.

[Acid_Reign161]

Using Ralfy's logic, perhaps RoboCop should have arrested the entirety of OCP's executives and security team, instead of just Dick Jones;

-He had an OCP ID card
-He had authority over the entire company, second only to 'the old man'.
-The narrative of the movie was addressing corporations of the time period.

Therefore, using Ralfy-Vision, the whole company was in on Bob Morton's murder, in order to push forward with production of the ED-209 program. He definitely wasn't working alone with his own self interests at heart. Even the security team, when called, responded to his request immediately without question, just like Bishop did with Burke; they were all in on it! Every one of them!! Jones works for the company; let me quote the director; "Dick Jones is second at OCP" you see? It's all in the movie! 20 years later, a vaguely canon comic book by someone who'd never worked on the movie was released portraying all of OCP as evil, so it was the directors intention all along. It's all there to see... and the Reagan administration and Vietnam all happened, so what I'm saying checks out! See?

😌

[Xenomrph]

Using Ralfy's logic, perhaps RoboCop should have arrested the entirety of OCP's executives and security team, instead of just Dick Jones;

-He had an OCP ID card
-He had authority over the entire company, second only to 'the old man'.
-The narrative of the movie was addressing corporations of the time period.

Therefore, using Ralfy-Vision, the whole company was in on Bob Morton's murder, in order to push forward with production of the ED-209 program. He definitely wasn't working alone with his own self interests at heart. Even the security team, when called, responded to his request immediately without question, just like Bishop did with Burke; they were all in on it! Every one of them!! Jones works for the company; let me quote the director; "Dick Jones is second at OCP" you see? It's all in the movie! 20 years later, a vaguely canon comic book by someone who'd never worked on the movie was released portraying all of OCP as evil, so it was the directors intention all along. It's all there to see... and the Reagan administration and Vietnam all happened, so what I'm saying checks out! See?

😌

I cannot argue with that logic, good sir.

[Immortan Jonesy]

this thread makes me yawn to tears

[Xenomrph]

this thread makes me yawn to tears

https://s13.gifyu.com/images/Sjdwc.gif

Somebody wake up Hicks Immortan Jonesy.

[ralfy]

this thread makes me yawn to tears

https://s13.gifyu.com/images/Sjdwc.gif

Why, then, are you posting in it? Your comment doesn't make sense.

Anyway, here's another way of answering the question by looking only at the contents of the first two movies. The claim is that Burke is working alone because the company forgot and didn't care about aliens or what he was doing, and that he was operating to profit solely from the find. The counterarguments:

Ripley explains in the first movie that the ICC has quarantines against exposure to, transmission, etc., of dangerous alien organisms. She repeats the same point in the second movie.

Ripley explains in the first movie that the company set up a special order because it wants to acquire the alien for its bio-weapons division. Burke mentions in the second movie that the alien is worth a lot of money for the bio-weapons division.

Corporations set up divisions and special orders and governments regulations based on precedence. That means companies had acquired various organisms previously, and in the case of W-Y, set up bio-weapons and other divisions to monetize them. The ICC had set up quarantine and other regulations because some of those organisms turned out to be dangerous. And this might refer to not only the aliens depicted in the two movies but others discovered.

Since W-Y continued with its bio-weapons division and the ICC with quarantines, etc., after the first movie, then that shows that the claim that the company forgot and didn't care makes no sense.

Next, Burke showed a business card revealing that he is the Director of the Special Services Division of the company. That shows that he was at the time employed by W-Y.

After that, he orders the colony manager to send a team to the location of the derelict ship. The colony manager works for W-Y and would receive orders only from a superior in the same company. That shows that Burke was working as an employee of the same company. In addition, his actions show the functions of his division: it can order around employees from other divisions, and in this case a manager of a colony handling terraforming operations and surveying. How do we know that? Burke explains it to Ripley as they're about to land on the colony.

Later, Burke orders Bishop around, and Bishop works for the military. How do we know that? Because he was assigned to drive the APC, which is a military vehicle. The military does not assign civilians to operate their vehicles, among others. Thus, Burke, an official of W-Y, was even able to order military personnel around. This also shows an additional function of his division, which is to work with the military and other agencies, if not to make their personnel work for it. But there's a limit to that, because later Ripley tells Burke that even though the colony facilities are owned by the company the military has jurisdiction over the mission.

In addition, Ripley explains that Burke was planning to smuggle the alien organisms to company labs, and later, expose her and Newt to the facehuggers. This shows a third function of his division, which is to circumvent the ICC and other regulators, and even to follow the special order mentioned in the first movie and do so even if it meant making others expendable.

After Burke is caught, Ripley tells the Marines that he was planning to get rid of them so that he would get his percentage. This refers to a share of profits from revenues gained after the aliens are monetized. This obviously shows that Burke wouldn't have profited solely from the find even if he wanted to do so because he's a company employee, just like the Nostromo crew and the Jordens. This also explains why members of the Nostromo crew also referred to shares and the "bonus situation".

Thus, the two main points raised by Burkesters are essentially countered even by the contents of the first two movies, such that other authorized media are not needed. The latter are helpful, though, because they can explain discrepancies or clarify points in the first two movies, like the precendence for the bio-weapons division and ICC regulations, and why the Board of Inquiry decided not to investigate the evidence given in the lifeboat flight recorder.

[Xenomrph]

Why, then, are you posting in it? Your comment doesn't make sense.

Same could be said about you

All of your points have been refuted repeatedly (but you'd have to take people off of ignore to see it)

[SM]

[Prez]

"@ralfy is a goddamn robot."

Gurgling some milk blood out of his mouth from his dismembered head, Ralfy smiles and says `you have my sympathies'.

[The Cruentus]

While he may have been using his company resources and authority, he was still acting alone in that he took it upon himself to give out those orders without telling anyone else in the company, because he wanted to have the exclusive rights.

When Ripley says the percentage line, it was probably just to make her point on how even the monstrous alien don't screw each other.
And even if you take it at face value, all it means is that eventually the company would find out what burke did (going by the assumption he accomplished it) and would take their cut out of it since it would still be their labs and resources being used to hold the specimens.

[ralfy]

"@ralfy is a goddamn robot."

Gurgling some milk blood out of his mouth from his dismembered head, Ralfy smiles and says `you have my sympathies'.

More like an Alien fan.

[Xenomrph]

"@ralfy is a goddamn robot."

Gurgling some milk blood out of his mouth from his dismembered head, Ralfy smiles and says `you have my sympathies'.

More like an Alien fan.

Pretty sure we all are.