Vincent Ward idea

[NetworkATTH]

I don't know if it's that silly. We can buy a lot of things in the Alien universe now. We can buy that they have both the technology to keep a static starship not fall into zero gravity inside...but also not have the budget to throw in some screens that are CRT. I mean there can be an in-universe explanation of cutting costs wherever possible because of the vast expense of building something like a Nostromo for the straightforward purpose it had, but it's still kind of silly. Why not a satellite covered in wood?

What exists in the Alien universe currently that is comparable to a space station made of wood?

Humanity started on a different part of the Galaxy that became space fairing interstellar gardeners, replicating their own existence and ecology, if not giving some of it some jazz, and then when a culture isn't going the way they like, they bomb it with a black goo which also is an engine of creation. A rogue AI who's been alone for years with an unlimited supply goes out and nukes their home world, or an outpost. He then begins work on creating something straight out of his psyche, the only way he knows how. Which ends up turning into a horrible embodiment of an AI's twisted understanding of its inhuman Id. I think we're in the realm, or at least an inch from the perimeter

On top of the issues of physics, I think you're taking the idea of a metal satellite covered in wood with Amish monks a bit too seriously. It's meant to reflect what the protagonist is feeling. Alone, abandoned by men who call her a witch, locked in the pitch dark, hallucinating about the men and women she lost, blaming herself, trying to come to grips that maybe this is right. And this, thing whatever it is, is what she deserves to be a mother. Out of abuse by this creature the inhabitants call Satan. The line recalls "You've been in my life so long, I don't remember anything else." This isn't just about the Alien, but about everything it represents, and everything this satellite covered in wood represents.

It goes back to the beginning of where Alien even came from. Rape. Violence. Inescapable trauma, destruction of the self. It all can be traced down to the past, and what better way to conclude the franchise than to explore the perverse logic the Alien represents. It is as archaic as the reactionary monks around them. It is no different than men a long time ago.

I unironically think it was a great idea, scientific or not. These movies break their own rules all the time anyways. The only problem is they rushed the script development then demanded changes.

You say its too weird, but I say "Phased Plasma Pulse Rifle, you can wipe out half a city with this puppy" so why not a metal satellite world covered in wood built by those reactionaries of their time who reject all manner of technology. I mean the wooden world was designed by the late famed eccentric architectural artist Lebbeus Woods. It would have been a visual marvel to look at. I just think his Alien 3, even in Assembly Cut form, would have confronted Ripley's character in a far more personal way, and explore a woman who lost everything, and what she does from there.

In these movies, science shouldn't matter as much as thematic consistency. 

[SM]

Where's the consistency in hi-tech stuff like terraforming and FTL travel versus a wooden planet?

The lack of consistency was why it was ditched.  You can achieve thematic consistency without going full on fantastical.

[NetworkATTH]

Where's the consistency in hi-tech stuff like terraforming and FTL travel versus a wooden planet?

The lack of consistency was why it was ditched.  You can achieve thematic consistency without going full on fantastical.

I don't get what's inconsistent. It could have been tugged there like Nostromo. And its deep space. I think it was ditched becuse in the words of Jon "I ruin everyone's fun" Landau, said it was "Too Artsy Fartsy". Which is bullshit because not only was Alien always artsy fartsy, but the excuses are lame.

They probably put wood on it and made it homely after the fact. You have to understand what Ward thought of the project too. First of all he wanted a woman who's violation of rape is met by mocks and jeers and imprisonment. She confronts her demons, and it's ambiguous if she ever wins.
You have to understand this was not meant to be a typical science fiction film where everything makes sense, it was meant to be the leap after Aliens, which is Psychological Horror. It was a character study of Ripley, it doesn't have to make sense, it's a nightmare.

It's an archaic design met with a creature who's motives are also purely domestic. This is a confrontational movie about women in a world that does not care for them no matter what they do. Because of their insolence and arrogance, basically all the monks die. The Alien is hyper reactionary, and it doesn't just want women, it wants to take men. Who have to understand quickly the pangs of birth.

I think people are getting hung up on the plot details, and not the overall coherence of the idea that could have been fantastic. Could it not have been? Maybe, but it's interesting character dynamics.

Think of Pan's Labyrinth, only the little girl is Ripley. There's magical realism to the whole thing set behind tragedy and reaction in that movie. And I feel hints of it here.

[SM]

It could have been tugged there like Nostromo.

Why?

This is the continually dodged question.

I'm all for a wooden planet if it can be made to fit with the existing grounded, commercially oriented presentation of the universe.  Twenty five years later and it still doesn't make any sense.

[NetworkATTH]

It could have been tugged there like Nostromo.

Why?

Because if you the script, they're not too different at all. From whether being from the United Americas, Third World Empire, or a global phenomenon. They preached a rhetoric that technology as making sick, they're kind of a cult. So they became political prisoners. The script, and according to Ward, the satellite was towed to basically evict the political prisoners into a satellite they designed to their own specifications, the on;y problem being it can't last forever.

Basically they allowed them to exist as a community far enough away they couldn't escape. Sort of like how America deals with the Amish, though less harsh.

The logic behind the science fiction aspects isn't really the prime focus for the movie, the focus is emotive/psychological horror. I think after Aliens, and apparently Ward agreed, that the next step is to the surreal to express the inner turmoil Ripley is feeling as a character.

It just needed more time and better writers unfortunately.

If del Toro can make shape of water, the first romance between woman and fish and somehow make it one of the most romantic movies of the decade, I'm fairly sure with the right people this could have been feasible to pull off.

[SM]

Del Toro movies are Alien canon?

So they became political prisoners. The script, and according to Ward, the satellite was towed to basically evict the political prisoners into a satellite they designed to their own specifications, the on;y problem being it can't last forever.

'You have been sentenced to exile.  However we're going to spend countless millions to build a space station out of wood to your exact specifications, and tow it out into the middle of nowhere.  May God have mercy on your soul!'

As I said - it doesn't make sense.

If they could've found a way for it to make sense - I'm in.  I don't believe even Ward could make it make sense.

[NetworkATTH]

Del Toro movies are Alien canon?

So they became political prisoners. The script, and according to Ward, the satellite was towed to basically evict the political prisoners into a satellite they designed to their own specifications, the on;y problem being it can't last forever.

'You have been sentenced to exile.  However we're going to spend countless millions to build a space station out of wood to your exact specifications, and tow it out into the middle of nowhere.  May God have mercy on your soul!'

As I said - it doesn't make sense.

If they could've found a way for it to make sense - I'm in.  I don't believe even Ward could make it make sense.

I don't understand what's not to make sense. If they can build a refinery as large as the Nostromo 50 odd years before the fact of Arceon's establishment, I don't think it would be hard to send a bunch of people in their own little isolated prison island in space so they can live their lives relatively peacefully. It's just a big metal ball with a thin atmosphere on the top of its wood chassis.  Perhaps, the reaction was so strong at that point that jailing them would have accelerated the situation, so giving a few their own personal little world to go about their business in, isn't a mind bending idea.

I mean America basically pays for Indian Reservations and Amish Communities. With the amount of money being possibly made from everything in Colonial Space, why not just make an alternative?

The space station isn't even that big. I doubt you'd have difficulty for tugging a metal ball covered in wood to the middle of nowhere. It's smaller than the Nostromo's refinery.

I would rather have Vincent's ideas in proper hands, than William Gibson's (action but flawed) David Twohy's, or, lord forgive mt Eric Red with the giant mutant comino-bot alien with alien mosquito and cows and pigs and insects and then the space station it took place in itself. While it's lifestyle somehow stuck in the 1950's.

Two versions of Alien 3 are viable. The Assembly Cut, and a Vincent Ward script that unfortunately was bogged down until he gave up.

[SM]

In Alien they make spaceships and the refinery out of metal; in Aliens, colonies, space stations  and ships are still made out of metal.  Arceon is wood, wood and more wood.  You keep handwaving it with comparisons that don't have any validity, and the script explanations are virtually non-existant.

[NetworkATTH]

In Alien they make spaceships and the refinery out of metal; in Aliens, colonies, space stations  and ships are still made out of metal.  Arceon is wood, wood and more wood.  You keep handwaving it with comparisons that don't have any validity, and the script explanations are virtually non-existant.

Vincent Ward is on the Blu Ray documentary Wreckage and Rape explaining that the satellite was essentially a metal sphere covered in wood with a thin atmosphere and climate control/atmospheric control at the center (the script contradicts this, but it was an earlier script). So the atmosphere in and outside of it is artificial. They probably covered it in wood before hand, looking at the concept art.

I think one of the biggest misconceptions is it was made of wood only. It's not. Straight from the Kiwi's mouth, the thing is just a metal ball covered in wood.

[SM]

Even if it's metal - there's still no explanation why the Company would do some special job to cover it in wood for political exiles.  Just dump them on some out of the way planet and be done with it.

Straight from every one else mouth in that doco why it was never going to fly.

[NetworkATTH]

Even if it's metal - there's still no explanation why the Company would do some special job to cover it in wood for political exiles.  Just dump them on some out of the way planet and be done with it.

Straight from every one else mouth in that doco why it was never going to fly.

Because it wasn't actually a colony, it was a prison for political dissidents. On top of that, the sphere wasn't as self sufficient as it was advertised, and over the years due to the very activity onboard, it was essentially on a clock before everyone on board died. You ask, why would such a power waste the resources to do this? And I would answer that it has historical president. The British Empire often used islands as prisons. The most notable of these, being Australia.

In the script's logic, it makes sense they would do this, because if they just straight started murdering the Luddites extra judicially, it would make things worse. The solution is to just build them a little ball they can live in that's doomed anyways. Everyone comes out happy.

I'm sure WY would have shilled out for less on something. It's just a purposefully faulty space station that was doomed anyways. Only the Abbot really knows about this if I remember correctly. In my mind it would have been cheaper just to give them what they want then having to terraform, or build up infrastructure on a planet. Per the script, supply ships stopped visiting them for years, unlike a planet where they can try and hijack a supply ship to escape. Weak logic I know, but it's clear in the script the company just made the place for them to die far far away from human civilization. They're trapped like rats and they don't even know it.

I'm surprised you're problem is they made this faulty dinky space ship with defects, and not the random scene where the Abbot's head exploded with a chestburster.  Clearly there needed to be a bit more refinement. If they had better people I think this would compliment Aliens and Alien extremely well.

[SM]

Because it wasn't actually a colony, it was a prison for political dissidents.

The March 29, 1990 draft calls it "RELIGIOUS COLONY ARCEON".

The British Empire often used islands as prisons. The most notable of these, being Australia.

Australia was abundant in natural resources, and the manpower to utilise them.  You didn't need to build a wooden space station to dump anyone in Australia.  Your example just backs up my argument about dumping the monks on some backwater planet.  No one said anything about murdering them; but this is a Company who isn't terribly fussed if their crews live or die if there's a buck in it.

Everyone comes out happy.

I'm sure the share holders would be well chuffed at the Company spending untold millions to keep some backward monks happy, and seeing no return on the investment.

I'm surprised you're problem is they made this faulty dinky space ship with defects, and not the random scene where the Abbot's head exploded with a chestburster.

I'm surprised you think my problem is a faulty dinky space ship with defects when it's been nothing of the sort.

The Company's primary focus is to make money.  There's no money in building a space station for some guys who can't pay for it, and will be destroyed once they're all dead.

[NetworkATTH]

I'm surprised you think my problem is a faulty dinky space ship with defects when it's been nothing of the sort.

The Company's primary focus is to make money.  There's no money in building a space station for some guys who can't pay for it, and will be destroyed once they're all dead.

Corporations make ridiculous decisions every day from the top to the bottom, but mostly from the top. Once you have the size of a East India Company or a Weyland-Yutani, the chances for investing in ridiculous shit really do increase since at that point you influence nations more than nations influence themselves. I wouldn't say that in the context of the setting it wouldn't make sense for them to build a simplistic space station. I mean using the same logic, why wouldn't they just sell Fury 161 for scrap earlier since they would have been motivated by profit to do so. Because the plot said it was necessary for the small characters to be there as forgotten people that fits with the narrative and theme of the whole picture and what Ripley is going through. This really is no different, however it is far less subdued and more in your face about the issues central to the Alien franchise. Which is abuse, which is rape, which is death, which is people not listening to foolish women talking out of tone in a world where reactionary men have near total control. I see where Vincent was going with the line of thought of what exactly the Alien represented, how Ripley had to confront that fear through the past two movies, but then returning into (a representative extreme form of) society that just is everything the Alien represents anyways. It's being reminded of the beast everywhere you go, it's post traumatic stress for this grieving character.

Alien isn't just about making you cross your legs, it's about making you feel uncomfortable about sex in general. Alien was a grim reminder of these issues, Aliens was an action rejection of the beast that all these old problems represented, Vincent Ward's Alien 3 would have been an exploration into a woman who's confronted that which represents every one of these problems and returning to a society realizing that humanity hasn't changed and really reacts the same way that makes you uncomfortable about the Alien. And it would have been a rejection of it by taking the titular dragon away by sacrifice as this old structure itself (in more ways than one) is going up in flames and being destroyed. It's all more evocative.

I understand why you think the idea of just, setting up a metal ball covered in wood for political dissidents who reject technology seems like a ridiculous thing. But at the same time, I don't see how it's any different than Fury 161. They probably had to have terraformed it, and even if they didn't and it somehow magically had Earth's atmosphere, they still would have had to build the infrastructure and shipped the prisoners there; and I seriously doubt even the scale of prisoners it previously had would be enough to return the massive investment. They wouldn't have just moved all the prisoners to stop working and keep a few for the pilot light.

You just have to suspend your disbelief either way this is a space prison and they built it for little return. An easy way to go around this is they were simply contracted by a government. At the end of the day either is a take on the same central issue, a woman who has to confront the loss she went through everywhere she goes. I think a lot of this just goes on personal taste

[SM]

Fiorina was a mine that housed thousands, then became a prison.

It has a believable history that fits with the existing films.  They didn't terraform a planet then build a ten mile square facility just for 20 guys.

[NetworkATTH]

Fiorina was a mine that housed thousands, then became a prison.

It has a believable history that fits with the existing films.  They didn't terraform a planet then build a ten mile square facility just for 20 guys.

I know they didn't terraform it for 20 guys, I know there was more people. My point was that it likewise seems like an awful investment, and by the time it was a skeleton crew they should have just moved the prisoners and sold the place for scrap. We have plenty of Corporations as we speak investing in absolutely ludicrous projects from government contracts, cough cough the F-35 cough cough, so building a small space station, logically, doesn't seem like outside their capability after the ludicrous amounts of money they made by 2179 or so.

You also have to take into account social biases, which do exist in Capital. Historical materialism does not just vanish, and capital has always obeyed the will of the people, and it isn't outside of the question they would just do this even if it hurt profit motive, as is the case in past history. In an extreme example, you could say Capital should have been the first to want civil rights because it would have been profitable to do so, they eventually saw the light but for a very very long time they did not. Capitalism is not infallible. It has much more social biases than you think. They might have just f**king hated these people. It has historical context throughout history.

The social world of Alien is a very techno-reactionary one, sending these political prisoners to get the f**k away on a space station to live out their days, that WY could easily afford, probably contracted by the government, doesn't sound as corny as you think. They would probably hate them enough with the resources at their disposal. "Just f**k off and go."

What I found refreshing about Ward's ideas were how little of the company was involved, but the direct manifestation of the social ills that made it possible from the 14th century to the 22nd. Going to the past to explain the future, while the embodiment of what they represent, the Alien, just as reactionary as they are, turn on them.They get their just deserts. It's the power structure that Arceon represents burning down as Ripley walks into the fire that signifies Ripley may have died but she symbolically won.

It just feels like they made the script and the producers and Fox got unhappy because they wanted to force the company in, they wanted to force an android in, they wanted to force a new batch of toys in, they wanted this they wanted that. The more the story was forced to tell, the more it lost its spirit. Which is sort of the fault you're looking at in my opinion. You want answers (answers that could be there), but not enough mystery. It's far more confrontational to these problems, or it could have been, than Alien 3 was.

The end of Alien 3 we got involved the company, the end of Ward's Alien 3 ended in the very foundations of what the company made possible centuries ago burn down, and she's taking the direct representation of all of it down with her. No company begging. No Lance cameo. Ripley just crashed on a world the company forgot existed, where she has to confront her demons.Both men and beast. The whole company angle from the film, as much as I like it, distracts from the study of Ripley as a character.

And I feel David Fincher felt the same way. If you watch Wreckage and Rape, it was clear the producers always wanted "The Duplicity of the Company", and Ward really wasn't keen on that angle. Instead going for the source of it all, the Alien haunted us for so long, because for so long we have behaved no differently. It would have thrust the theme forward without the distractions. Producers probably kept pushing for the company angle, and he just quit because that wasn't the story he was trying to tell. He was trying to tell a story about going to the source of Ripley's trauma, the past, and they paid for their sins. It's clear Fincher realized that Ward had a better grasp on where the character should go, if not flawed, and the producers wanted a science fiction movie instead. The religious angle just seems like something they were fighting for throughout production.

I love Alien 3, but it is definitely a watered down version of the visceral kinds of issues and problems it confronted. The script we have probably was made with a ton of bargaining already. They liked his ideas, but they knew it was sheathed in wood over metal, but said "wood in space" as an excuse probably to cover for the fact they got cold feet over how American audiences might take offense to the ideas present, exploring the alien aspects of humanity that's intertwined with the creature itself. Especially during the Reaganite/Bush Sr era.

I would take the word of an inspired artist over Jon Landau from Fox any day of the week for the rest of my life.