Work on the Sequels Stopped?

Started by Corporal Hicks, Jul 18, 2017, 11:49:17 AM

Author
Work on the Sequels Stopped? (Read 151,055 times)

Jonesy1974

Jonesy1974

#525
The point is for me that going for a wash, saving a cat, going for a sleep and so on are all pretty inconsequential in the broader context of a film. If you like the plot, characters etc then these things don't bug you so much but if you don't like these key components then the smaller things like movie tropes take on greater significance.

FenGiddel

FenGiddel

#526
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jul 25, 2017, 01:33:07 PM
My problem with Rosenthal's demise isn't that it's a trope, it's that it's a dumb trope. Having a character separate from the group for no logical reason - in a situation where you'd absolutely want to stick together for the added security that entails - just so they can be offed.
...because it's a horror film, and nobody in real life would go into unsafe situations like horror movie characters do (and must)...like Brett's little stroll in Alien;D

Kane's other son

They were in the necropolis citadel. They had no reason to believe that the neomorph could scale walls.

HuDaFuK

HuDaFuK

#528
Quote from: FenGiddel on Jul 25, 2017, 01:49:56 PM...because it's a horror film, and nobody in real life would go into unsafe situations like horror movie characters do (and must)...like Brett's little stroll in Alien;D

But again, I buy Brett going after the cat because the film's already portrayed him as not especially smart, he thinks he's merely up against a little snake and not a 9' tall alien killing machine, and he's a trucker, not a trained soldier.

Rosenthal knows the kind of shit she's facing and is supposed to be a trained soldier, yet she decides to go for a walk by herself. Why? To do something she could've done perfectly well in front of the others (I assume they have a supply of water with them). Even if she couldn't, any soldier worth half their salt would take someone with them, or hell, f*cking tell someone where they were going. She does none of these things. It's moronic.

Some people clearly aren't bothered by it and that's fine. But to me it's the kind of illogical character stupidity that completely undermined Prometheus.

Quote from: Kane's other son on Jul 25, 2017, 02:10:22 PMThey were in the necropolis citadel. They had no reason to believe that the neomorph could scale walls.

Would you take the chance?! Up until today Aliens couldn't get inside people from tiny spores then burst out of their face, either.

Hemi

Hemi

#529
Don't forget her floating face.... 3 fcking times... WHY!

ChrisPachi

ChrisPachi

#530
Quote from: FenGiddel on Jul 25, 2017, 01:49:56 PM...because it's a horror film, and nobody in real life would go into unsafe situations like horror movie characters do (and must)...like Brett's little stroll in Alien;D

Tropes need to work though. If they had established that Rosenthal had a legitimate reason to isolate herself, such as that she was a private drug addict in need of a hit, or that she was infected unbeknown to her colleagues and wanted to examine her worrying infection...you know, horror tropes that work... then fine. Needing a wash is just plain silly. Normal people don't need to wash in that situation.

Quote from: Kane's other son on Jul 25, 2017, 02:10:22 PMThey were in the necropolis citadel. They had no reason to believe that the neomorph could scale walls.

They were in the necropolis citadel. Totally safe.

HuDaFuK

HuDaFuK

#531
At the end of the day, it's about believably. The film has to make me buy into the mistakes its characters make.

Take the earlier Neomorph birth sequence - I buy Faris freaking out, falling over and accidentally blowing herself up because, Jesus Christ, an alien creature just ripped its way out of man's back in front of my eyes. I daresay I'd totally lose my shit in that situation too.

But Rosnethal isn't losing her shit. She's just being wilfully careless for no good reason and I don't buy it.

The Cruentus

The Cruentus

#532
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jul 25, 2017, 02:32:10 PM
At the end of the day, it's about believably. The film has to make me buy into the mistakes its characters make.

Take the earlier Neomorph birth sequence - I buy Faris freaking out, falling over and accidentally blowing herself up because, Jesus Christ, an alien creature just ripped its way out of man's back in front of my eyes. I daresay I'd totally lose my shit in that situation too.

But Rosnethal isn't losing her shit. She's just being wilfully careless for no good reason and I don't buy it.

Humorously out of the two characters, a lot of folks apparently hate Faris because of that behaviour, mind you she was a hypocrite as she locked Karine in for being splattered with blood yet doesn't quarantine herself when she gets Hallet's blood on her face. Karine only had it on her jacket which one can just remove.

Hemi

Hemi

#533
Would be better if she grabbed the Neo's neck and punched the thing in the face. Showing that she is a total badass and can wonder alone whenever she fcking pleases.

But no...we got this 3x



Why show this 3x!!!   >:(

QuoteHumorously out of the two characters, a lot of folks apparently hate Faris because of that behaviour, mind you she was a hypocrite as she locked Karine in for being splattered with blood yet doesn't quarantine herself when she gets Hallet's blood on her face. Karine only had it on her jacket which one can just remove.

Kinda liked that actually, it showed some nice character development.

Paranoid Android

Paranoid Android

#534
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jul 25, 2017, 01:43:20 PM
The point is for me that going for a wash, saving a cat, going for a sleep and so on are all pretty inconsequential in the broader context of a film. If you like the plot, characters etc then these things don't bug you so much but if you don't like these key components then the smaller things like movie tropes take on greater significance.
I agree to some extent. The thing is that while Rosenthal's death, as a single event, is pretty insignificant, she's a symptom to a larger problem: the script and character development. Her wandering off by herself is just another bad decision in a chain of bad decisions the characters take on every turn, starting off with the very decision to visit the planet. The script has the audience second-guessing its character decisions all the time, and as a result undermines the threat it is supposed to establish with the creatures themselves. The threat in Alien:Covenant is not the Neomorph or Xenomorph/Protomorph/Whatever - it's the glaring incompetence of the characters.

So ok, the characters make dumb decisions all the time. Fine. But the characters aren't even really characters in this film. Rosenthal as is with the audience for 3/4 of the film, but we don't even learn her name until after she dies. Her entire character can be summed up as "the jewish girl" (her last name's Rosenthal and she wears the star of david on her neck when the Neomorph decapitates her). That's about as much of a character as a street sign. I don't know her as a person. I have no idea what she likes/doesn't like or how she behaves in situations that aren't forced. If, for example, we would've learned earlier that she's very sensitive about hygene (silly character trait perhaps, but bear with me), going to wash off would at least fit as a character motivation. That's why laughing at the stupidity of her death is the emotional extent people are willing to go in regard to that situation.

You might think I'm being unfairly hard on Rosenthal because she's just a supporting/minor character, so let's go dissect Daniels, who is supposed to be the protagonist (I suppose): She's the wife of James Franco, whatever his name was in this. Other than that, she's pretty much along for the ride same as every other character. She constantly has stuff happening to her instead of actively dealing with dilemmas that could've flushed her out as a character (Ripley's quarantine scene in Alien as an example). She has a small backstory about her wanting to build a cabin that she tells Walter, but that's more of a Walter/David character element, as its only use in the film is to flush out the "twist" at the end. You might say she's as resourceful as Ripley was in Alien because she pushes the alien out of an airlock, but is she really? In Alien, the crew tries several plans to get rid of the alien with it constantly outsmarting them until eventually Ripley manages to get rid of the alien in a mixture of improvisation and a lot of luck (if the alien hadn't been sleeping in the first place, she would've been dead as well). Her pragmatism is built up in various scenes throughout the film, so there's consistency with her. In Covenant, Daniels just does the first thing that comes to her mind ("blow it out the airlock") and succeeds on her first attempt by throwing a space truck at the thing. Am I supposed to be impressed by this Die Hard 4 In Space schlock moment?

Every character in this film is completely one-dimensional, save for two: David and Walter. Why? - David's character was established in Prometheus, and Walter's character is a sharp contrast of David. Maybe Oram had a little bit more going for him being an insecure idiot with faith, but even that might be a stretch because I can't really point my finger at a smart crew member in order to deduce that Oram's stupidity is how he's written as a character, and not simply a result of the entire script. If the film cannot establish deep characters for me to care about, why would I be afraid about them dying off? The alien might as well attack cardboard cutouts.

tleilaxu

tleilaxu

#535
We can nitpick Alien and Aliens, which obviously seems to be your favorite movie of the bunch, just like this and make them sound like shit too. You didn't like the movie, so every little thing becomes "the stupidest thing ever".
There's a supreme irony at hand when people defend Gorman panicking in Aliens but think Rosenthal going off to cleanse her wounds alone is the stupidest thing ever.

Corporal Hicks

Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jul 25, 2017, 03:00:10 PM
I agree to some extent. The thing is that while Rosenthal's death, as a single event, is pretty insignificant, she's a symptom to a larger problem: the script and character development. Her wandering off by herself is just another bad decision in a chain of bad decisions the characters take on every turn, starting off with the very decision to visit the planet. The script has the audience second-guessing its character decisions all the time, and as a result undermines the threat it is supposed to establish with the creatures themselves. The threat in Alien:Covenant is not the Neomorph or Xenomorph/Protomorph/Whatever - it's the glaring incompetence of the characters.

While I don't mind her actions as much as others, I do think she only exists to die. Her character isn't in the earlier script I've read. Her only line I really remember (when she's talking to Lope after Hallett dies) was originally Daniels. I know she has a couple more but I can't really remember them. The Neomorphs disappear entirely after David shows up. So seems to me that she was added just to die by a Neomorph later on.

HuDaFuK

HuDaFuK

#537
Quote from: tleilaxu on Jul 25, 2017, 03:16:30 PMWe can nitpick Alien and Aliens, which obviously seems to be your favorite movie of the bunch, just like this and make them sound like shit too.

Other than maybe Ripley going back for the cat, no, you can't. That's partly why their considered among the greatest movies of all time. The characters in them feel like real, believable people. They might make bad calls but nothing they do feels like a forced action just to facilitate their death.

Jonesy1974

Jonesy1974

#538
I agree Most of the characters aren't fleshed out. The only purpose for them is to die and that's pretty much the norm in these kind of films so doesn't bother me. Oram though, to me anyway, is one of the best, well written characters in any Alien film.

Paranoid Android

Quote from: tleilaxu on Jul 25, 2017, 03:16:30 PM
We can nitpick Alien and Aliens, which obviously seems to be your favorite movie of the bunch, just like this and make them sound like shit too. You didn't like the movie, so every little thing becomes "the stupidest thing ever".
There's a supreme irony at hand when people defend Gorman panicking in Aliens but think Rosenthal going off to cleanse her wounds alone is the stupidest thing ever.

Feel free to nitpick Alien and Aliens. If a movie has a genuine problem, even if it's my favorite movie, I have no issue admitting it. For example: when the Queen was hanging off of Ripley's foot during the final confrontation in Aliens, it made no sense for Ripley to hold on to the ladder. The sheer weight of the Queen along with the vacuum effect should've either forced her to let go, or broke her arm.

As for Gorman panicking, he was written as an inexperienced officer. Him panicking fit his character perfectly.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jul 25, 2017, 03:19:19 PM
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jul 25, 2017, 03:00:10 PM
I agree to some extent. The thing is that while Rosenthal's death, as a single event, is pretty insignificant, she's a symptom to a larger problem: the script and character development. Her wandering off by herself is just another bad decision in a chain of bad decisions the characters take on every turn, starting off with the very decision to visit the planet. The script has the audience second-guessing its character decisions all the time, and as a result undermines the threat it is supposed to establish with the creatures themselves. The threat in Alien:Covenant is not the Neomorph or Xenomorph/Protomorph/Whatever - it's the glaring incompetence of the characters.

While I don't mind her actions as much as others, I do think she only exists to die. Her character isn't in the earlier script I've read. Her only line I really remember (when she's talking to Lope after Hallett dies) was originally Daniels. I know she has a couple more but I can't really remember them. The Neomorphs disappear entirely after David shows up. So seems to me that she was added just to die by a Neomorph later on.
She does only exist to die, and that's the problem. She takes up precious screen time that could've been used to flush out someone else. The fact that the film still focuses on insignificant characters 3/4 into the film is a major issue, especially when even your protagonist hasn't been flushed out yet.

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