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Author Topic: Did Isolation bring the childhood nightmare back f...  (Read 6336 times)

Murfy426
Mar 15, 2015, 04:20:24 PM
Reply #15 on: Mar 15, 2015, 04:20:24 PM

Not sure why people care so much. Purism makes sense to a point, but this is still the most faithful version of the creature to the original, and some might argue is faster and more agile. If I had to complain about anything it is not the visuals, but the sounds that the creature makes. The noises that the original made were just plain weird. In Alien: Isolation, some of the sounds were changed, and these changes I do not entirely understand.
I didn't understand those at first either but after making my way through the campaign I always thought the new alien sounds gave it a more heavy physical presence when you could hear it nearby, a problem I always had with other alien games is that the aliens always seemed smaller than your character. Even though the alien is very slim its still a big motherf**ker its bigger than any man.


NickisSmart
Mar 15, 2015, 05:36:09 PM
Reply #16 on: Mar 15, 2015, 05:36:09 PM
True. It does sound big. But I think the original sound crew combined a Rottweiler, a baby, and a rattlesnake and it just sounded so... strange. You could've kept the heavy pounding and simply replaced the Isolation alien's garden variety growls with the original dog-baby-snake sounds and I think it would've been pretty interesting. Granted, everything the devs did they did for a reason, and they tested the shit out of this game. Perhaps the original sounds didn't work as well in practice as they did in theory. Who knows?

I was playing the game earlier with the gamma all the way down and it was so dark, I couldn't see the creature, only hear it. Well, it was pretty unsettling regardless of the sounds it was making. They're not faithful from a purist sense, but it's all academic when you're in a dark room, can't see the creature, and you haven't saved for the entire mission. : )


OpenMaw
Mar 15, 2015, 05:47:46 PM
Reply #17 on: Mar 15, 2015, 05:47:46 PM
Yeah. The original alien made some really great noises.

My favorite is a very low level sound that I always associated with it's drooling, this kind of ringy low... drooling, hissing type sound. You can hear it when it comes near Lambert and in the scene where it kills Brett. That's the kind of sound that would have worked to keep your ears perked.

I think you could shave out most of the shrieks and shrills and have the alien's body movement making most of the noise. The thuds and shuddering of the vents as it moved were plenty in terms of sound design.


NetworkATTH
Mar 15, 2015, 06:03:16 PM
Reply #18 on: Mar 15, 2015, 06:03:16 PM
Definitely not. Because the full ADI alien in this game by any means is like the first one. The adi body, legs, design, sounds, that it's still smaller than the original, etc really killed the creature again. The only thing they kept original regarding the original alien is that they made It indestructible.

It's funny how devs are so obssesed about being so truthful to the original material; the ship; the station; weapons; etc everything, and when It comes to the most important thing of any alien game, the alien itself, they never make It like the original, which was the only one who once gave me nightmares.

The game is good, but they f**ked up the alien once more. Is It better than any other alien seen in other iterations?, of course, but still far from being as good as the original when It comes to everything: size, sounds, original biomechanical design, behaviour, movement, etc

Alien was not Giger's Movie, this is a joint effort between so many different artists, it has elements, but in the end, Giger was not always known for drawing totally humanoid shapes, everything is exaggerated, this is still faithful. It was very hard to animate a beast that walks like a human, crawls like a human, and jumps like a human, with a penile skull, while keeping it beautiful and relentless. They tried, and it looked ridiculous. Ridley had the same problem, he wanted to make the Alien do all these ballet motions and odd behaviors, none of them coming off as well as he had hope; it still, looked like a man in a suit, which is what they wanted to avoid. In Aliens, they avoided this by keeping film on the upper torso, dimply lit backgrounds, and crawling, with exception of the Queen. The Alien is not "f**ked" the original was "f**ked". It's universally agreed it was beautiful but there was room for improvement. A notable example of this is the "crabwalk", they tried to make the Alien look exotic, in the death sequence for Parker and Lambert. What resulted, immediately was noticeable as a dud, they couldn't pull of full body shots of the Alien well enough, no matter how hard they tried. It didn't look Alien enough, and it couldn't move as Alien as they wanted.



And in all honesty, it is more interesting. if you look at the feet of the creature, the ostrich leg shape makes it all more interesting. If you look at the feet of a flightless bird, the toes point downwards when it lifts its leg to walk, or just stand. And run; it looked like it was jogging when it ran. This is what the Alien does, as well as having hand like feet. Below is the NECA Alien Isolation figure, absed on the model of the Alien. You can see its feet. And it still has the Giger-esque erotic hand shape, while keeping it in a bird like motion. That is more interesting, objectively, than Crab Crawl McGee.


« Last Edit: Mar 15, 2015, 10:47:15 PM by NetworkATTH »

Murfy426
Mar 15, 2015, 06:17:03 PM
Reply #19 on: Mar 15, 2015, 06:17:03 PM
True. It does sound big. But I think the original sound crew combined a Rottweiler, a baby, and a rattlesnake and it just sounded so... strange. You could've kept the heavy pounding and simply replaced the Isolation alien's garden variety growls with the original dog-baby-snake sounds and I think it would've been pretty interesting. Granted, everything the devs did they did for a reason, and they tested the shit out of this game. Perhaps the original sounds didn't work as well in practice as they did in theory. Who knows?

I was playing the game earlier with the gamma all the way down and it was so dark, I couldn't see the creature, only hear it. Well, it was pretty unsettling regardless of the sounds it was making. They're not faithful from a purist sense, but it's all academic when you're in a dark room, can't see the creature, and you haven't saved for the entire mission. : )
yeah the game deserved the audio bafta without a doubt, I said on another thread that each copy of the game should of came with headphones as it heightens the tension and the immersion so well its unbelievable.


OpenMaw
Mar 15, 2015, 08:41:40 PM
Reply #20 on: Mar 15, 2015, 08:41:40 PM
Ridley had the same problem, he wanted to make the Alien do all these ballet motions and odd behaviors, none of them coming off as well as he had hope; it still, looked like a man in a suit, which is what they wanted to avoid.

That has nothing to do with design and more to do with the cumbersome nature of the suit. Winston's guys under Camereon's direction made the smart move of simplifying the suit for the movement it needed to do, and it came off fine in just about every shot it's shown in.

It's an artistic choice to do the aliens with those legs, nothing more. We've had decades of aliens with regular legs and they've worked just fine.


NetworkATTH
Mar 15, 2015, 10:40:04 PM
Reply #21 on: Mar 15, 2015, 10:40:04 PM
Ridley had the same problem, he wanted to make the Alien do all these ballet motions and odd behaviors, none of them coming off as well as he had hope; it still, looked like a man in a suit, which is what they wanted to avoid.

That has nothing to do with design and more to do with the cumbersome nature of the suit. Winston's guys under Camereon's direction made the smart move of simplifying the suit for the movement it needed to do, and it came off fine in just about every shot it's shown in.

It's an artistic choice to do the aliens with those legs, nothing more. We've had decades of aliens with regular legs and they've worked just fine.

You still have those problems. In Aliens, everything was lit where they were jumping all over the place, crawling from ducts, holding onto hive resin, played in reverse, but still, all sudden, with the exception of the Queen. Why? Because how easy it is to go away knowing, it was a man in a suit. Still. You can make things fast, nimble, you can try every movement trick in the book, you still have problems when it comes to crawling, and jumping, and running, in ways that seem plausible because it is outside the limits of the human form to provide said need. You cannot make human shape jump far, especially weighed down by an exoskeleton. You also cannot have a tubed head biped with straight up and down human legs, running at you, without cuts, just straight running at you, without it looking absolutely silly. On top of all this, the human form is not the best to do what the Alien does. The Alien from the body up is terrific, but humans were not meant to run at high speeds, lunge over lengths, or cover distances fast. We are not that kind of animal, and the way our legs are structures bone-wise, reflects that.

This becomes not only an issue of keeping believability, but also coming into question just how these beings are capable of being as lethal and fast as they are with the leg shape of a man. You can make it as skinny as you want, long as you want, it still cannot overcome the boundaries and stress required of agile predators. Sure, let's assume the Aliens are built differently from the anthrocentric biped look, that still doesn't solve the problem the leg is straight up and down like a man and is not the anatomy of an effective killer. In order to make an Alien preform the work it did in Aliens, as fast as it did, with human legs, they had to cut it in quick shots, sped up, or reversed, to give the illusion of high speed. If such a creature were capable of speeds present with human legs, it would have to break the laws of physics.

« Last Edit: Mar 15, 2015, 10:48:21 PM by NetworkATTH »

OpenMaw
Mar 15, 2015, 11:08:21 PM
Reply #22 on: Mar 15, 2015, 11:08:21 PM
I'll say it again, and keep repeating it until it is understood. We have had bipedal aliens in all the media forms for decades. Including all of the games. Even in Alien Resurrection on PS1 (which was the film to give us the digitigrade legs.) It was never an issue. AVP Gold and AvP 2 also have the aliens with their standard humanoid legs. Looks fine.

So what if trickery was used in the first two films to make it work? So what? It was effective and it looked good. There is not a bad shot of the warriors in Aliens. They look fantastic. In fact, if the so-called and perceived limitations of the legs force the film-makers to shoot things creatively, then I encourage the use of the humanoid legs even more. The last thing I ever want to see again is a repeat of Alien Resurrection where we have fully-lit fully exposed CGI aliens doing all kinds of nonsense that pulls me out of the movie.

I'm not even saying I have an issue with the leg change. I'm just saying it's flat out wrong that it "wouldn't work" when we have dozens of games that existed already that show us it very much can work without an issue.



Murfy426
Mar 15, 2015, 11:18:53 PM
Reply #23 on: Mar 15, 2015, 11:18:53 PM
nice to see my thread has inspired heated debate lol  :laugh:


NetworkATTH
Mar 15, 2015, 11:47:55 PM
Reply #24 on: Mar 15, 2015, 11:47:55 PM
I'll say it again, and keep repeating it until it is understood. We have had bipedal aliens in all the media forms for decades. Including all of the games. Even in Alien Resurrection on PS1 (which was the film to give us the digitigrade legs.) It was never an issue. AVP Gold and AvP 2 also have the aliens with their standard humanoid legs. Looks fine.

So what if trickery was used in the first two films to make it work? So what? It was effective and it looked good. There is not a bad shot of the warriors in Aliens. They look fantastic. In fact, if the so-called and perceived limitations of the legs force the film-makers to shoot things creatively, then I encourage the use of the humanoid legs even more. The last thing I ever want to see again is a repeat of Alien Resurrection where we have fully-lit fully exposed CGI aliens doing all kinds of nonsense that pulls me out of the movie.

I'm not even saying I have an issue with the leg change. I'm just saying it's flat out wrong that it "wouldn't work" when we have dozens of games that existed already that show us it very much can work without an issue.

I am replying to someone who could not understand how a game with intimate contact with the Alien could not work with a human leg structure, in reponse to someone who was saying that it was total failure on the part of Creative Assembly despite the hours they put in trying to make said leg work.

As well, any further media that requires this, should take note when trying. I don't mind the Alien anatomy revision, because Giger agreed in his Alien 3 "revision" of the Alien. The tail is pretty anatomically useless if it doesn't exist a counterweight, it would weigh such an animal down. And I have to say, personal preference, I like the more Avian leg design because not only does it make more sense but you can get away with a lot more doing it. I'm really not insulting you at all, I'm suggesting that there's no reason to keep the totally human in form when it already has a Dinosaur like tail, seeming counter balance/stinger.

Totally ignoring anatomy in everything for the sake of it looking interesting to an audience when everyone in the original production came back disappointed with how the Alien preformed on screen, and Cameron having to work around that, is really counter intuitive if you want to keep making media involving the Alien.

Plus like, so far that leg design has been pulled off terribly I agree. But what Ridley wanted originally, the ballet of an inhuman killer, can be presented with more efficiency in CG than an anthropomorphic biped can.


« Last Edit: Mar 15, 2015, 11:56:26 PM by NetworkATTH »

PsyKore
Mar 16, 2015, 12:47:16 AM
Reply #25 on: Mar 16, 2015, 12:47:16 AM
I don't have nightmares anymore, but I have to say, the game sorta fell short for me. The Alien seemed like a generic monster in a lot of ways, not really Alien. Don't think I hate the game, I just don't think the essence of the Alien was all there.


NetworkATTH
Mar 16, 2015, 01:38:14 AM
Reply #26 on: Mar 16, 2015, 01:38:14 AM
I don't have nightmares anymore, but I have to say, the game sorta fell short for me. The Alien seemed like a generic monster in a lot of ways, not really Alien. Don't think I hate the game, I just don't think the essence of the Alien was all there.

I mean how much of an intricate shot replication from Ridley Scott do you want per second per time the creature is on screen. It's not some mystical assassin, it is, very much, a lethal and deadly animal. It's a different kind of scary, it's a bear attack scary, or a tiger is hunting you down scary. The first film and the second film openly acknowledge this, but the first film and blinding amounts of lighting per shot. You can't replicate the existence of that first film on screen perfectly accurately because that world does not exist, it's candy coated with lighting, but all things considered Creative Assembly did a fine job.

I never considered the Alien series much "nightmare" material regardless.


PsyKore
Mar 16, 2015, 02:15:59 AM
Reply #27 on: Mar 16, 2015, 02:15:59 AM
I don't have nightmares anymore, but I have to say, the game sorta fell short for me. The Alien seemed like a generic monster in a lot of ways, not really Alien. Don't think I hate the game, I just don't think the essence of the Alien was all there.

I mean how much of an intricate shot replication from Ridley Scott do you want per second per time the creature is on screen. It's not some mystical assassin, it is, very much, a lethal and deadly animal. It's a different kind of scary, it's a bear attack scary, or a tiger is hunting you down scary. The first film and the second film openly acknowledge this, but the first film and blinding amounts of lighting per shot. You can't replicate the existence of that first film on screen perfectly accurately because that world does not exist, it's candy coated with lighting, but all things considered Creative Assembly did a fine job.

I never considered the Alien series much "nightmare" material regardless.

That's reading too much into my post. I'm just not a fan of the foot stomping, the growls, the weird leashing from the AI, the lack of creepiness, etc. It comes across as generic.

There is a state in the AI that makes him creep silently if he knows you're near. It's those times that the game feels properly Alien - if you've seen it, you know what I mean. But unfortunately, he generally just stomps around like he's looking for his car keys or something and it's not very exciting.

Also, I remember in that third person video recently how they had a heartbeat sound effect when the Alien was in close proximity. There were no OTT foot stomps, just a heartbeat. But just that small detail added so much more "alien" to the vibe. It's little things like that, but I think in the end they make big differences.

I guess in summary I just expect more subtlety, more appropriate sound and atmosphere from the iconic Alien. Robocop-like foot stomping and lion growls isn't scary, it's just really daft.


NetworkATTH
Mar 16, 2015, 03:38:08 AM
Reply #28 on: Mar 16, 2015, 03:38:08 AM
I don't have nightmares anymore, but I have to say, the game sorta fell short for me. The Alien seemed like a generic monster in a lot of ways, not really Alien. Don't think I hate the game, I just don't think the essence of the Alien was all there.

I mean how much of an intricate shot replication from Ridley Scott do you want per second per time the creature is on screen. It's not some mystical assassin, it is, very much, a lethal and deadly animal. It's a different kind of scary, it's a bear attack scary, or a tiger is hunting you down scary. The first film and the second film openly acknowledge this, but the first film and blinding amounts of lighting per shot. You can't replicate the existence of that first film on screen perfectly accurately because that world does not exist, it's candy coated with lighting, but all things considered Creative Assembly did a fine job.

I never considered the Alien series much "nightmare" material regardless.

That's reading too much into my post. I'm just not a fan of the foot stomping, the growls, the weird leashing from the AI, the lack of creepiness, etc. It comes across as generic.

There is a state in the AI that makes him creep silently if he knows you're near. It's those times that the game feels properly Alien - if you've seen it, you know what I mean. But unfortunately, he generally just stomps around like he's looking for his car keys or something and it's not very exciting.

Also, I remember in that third person video recently how they had a heartbeat sound effect when the Alien was in close proximity. There were no OTT foot stomps, just a heartbeat. But just that small detail added so much more "alien" to the vibe. It's little things like that, but I think in the end they make big differences.

I guess in summary I just expect more subtlety, more appropriate sound and atmosphere from the iconic Alien. Robocop-like foot stomping and lion growls isn't scary, it's just really daft.

I think you're reading too much into an Alien.  ;)


PsyKore
Mar 16, 2015, 04:55:41 AM
Reply #29 on: Mar 16, 2015, 04:55:41 AM
I don't have nightmares anymore, but I have to say, the game sorta fell short for me. The Alien seemed like a generic monster in a lot of ways, not really Alien. Don't think I hate the game, I just don't think the essence of the Alien was all there.

I mean how much of an intricate shot replication from Ridley Scott do you want per second per time the creature is on screen. It's not some mystical assassin, it is, very much, a lethal and deadly animal. It's a different kind of scary, it's a bear attack scary, or a tiger is hunting you down scary. The first film and the second film openly acknowledge this, but the first film and blinding amounts of lighting per shot. You can't replicate the existence of that first film on screen perfectly accurately because that world does not exist, it's candy coated with lighting, but all things considered Creative Assembly did a fine job.

I never considered the Alien series much "nightmare" material regardless.

That's reading too much into my post. I'm just not a fan of the foot stomping, the growls, the weird leashing from the AI, the lack of creepiness, etc. It comes across as generic.

There is a state in the AI that makes him creep silently if he knows you're near. It's those times that the game feels properly Alien - if you've seen it, you know what I mean. But unfortunately, he generally just stomps around like he's looking for his car keys or something and it's not very exciting.

Also, I remember in that third person video recently how they had a heartbeat sound effect when the Alien was in close proximity. There were no OTT foot stomps, just a heartbeat. But just that small detail added so much more "alien" to the vibe. It's little things like that, but I think in the end they make big differences.

I guess in summary I just expect more subtlety, more appropriate sound and atmosphere from the iconic Alien. Robocop-like foot stomping and lion growls isn't scary, it's just really daft.

I think you're reading too much into an Alien.  ;)

Haha! Nice one. But no. :)


 

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