AVP: part of the canon, or a separate universe?

[TurokSwe]

No it's a canon issue too.  When new stories are developed, we consider other Alien sources - we do not consider AvP.

I'm not sure what that's even supposed to mean or how that relates to the official canon. Obviously stories strictly centered on the Alien  or Predator licenses won't be considering AVP (even though they may reference or be connected to each other, as in the case of Fire and Stone, Life and Death, and The Rage War trilogy for instance), as I'd figure that's the very purpose of the AVP license itself to fill out that role.

If AVP stuff is not considered for the development of new stories in the Alien universe it is not canon to it.
If it would be, they would consider it to avoid contradictions.

That is of course flawed logic. AVP wasn't considered for the development of Predators, yet still takes place within the same universe. Neither Alien nor Predator stories are required to consider past works, especially if they don't actually contradict said past works (though one could argue that the technology present in Prometheus/Covenant was contradictory to the Alien films).

There is the charles bishop weyland universe and the peter weyland universe. Predators just exist in both.

The evidence seem to support a single shared universe, as I already argued for in my initial comment on this thread.

*The canon 'bible' Fox is using for the Alien series does not include the AVP films according to those who made Alien Covenant.

I can verify this.

+

AvP is cinematically tainted.

Which (if even true) of course means nothing.

[The Kurgan]

No it's a canon issue too.  When new stories are developed, we consider other Alien sources - we do not consider AvP.

I'm not sure what that's even supposed to mean or how that relates to the official canon. Obviously stories strictly centered on the Alien  or Predator licenses won't be considering AVP (even though they may reference or be connected to each other, as in the case of Fire and Stone, Life and Death, and The Rage War trilogy for instance), as I'd figure that's the very purpose of the AVP license itself to fill out that role.

If AVP stuff is not considered for the development of new stories in the Alien universe it is not canon to it.
If it would be, they would consider it to avoid contradictions.

That is of course flawed logic. AVP wasn't considered for the development of Predators, yet still takes place within the same universe. Neither Alien nor Predator stories are required to consider past works, especially if they don't actually contradict said past works (though one could argue that the technology present in Prometheus/Covenant was contradictory to the Alien films).

There is the charles bishop weyland universe and the peter weyland universe. Predators just exist in both.

The evidence seem to support a single shared universe, as I already argued for in my initial comment on this thread.

*The canon 'bible' Fox is using for the Alien series does not include the AVP films according to those who made Alien Covenant.

I can verify this.

+

AvP is cinematically tainted.

Which (if even true) of course means nothing.

Your case seems to boil down to 'because I say so, more is pointing to my opinion' for the most part.

I don't think you will sway anyone's mind with that and think you are frankly put, wasting your time.

[TurokSwe]

No it's a canon issue too.  When new stories are developed, we consider other Alien sources - we do not consider AvP.

I'm not sure what that's even supposed to mean or how that relates to the official canon. Obviously stories strictly centered on the Alien  or Predator licenses won't be considering AVP (even though they may reference or be connected to each other, as in the case of Fire and Stone, Life and Death, and The Rage War trilogy for instance), as I'd figure that's the very purpose of the AVP license itself to fill out that role.

If AVP stuff is not considered for the development of new stories in the Alien universe it is not canon to it.
If it would be, they would consider it to avoid contradictions.

That is of course flawed logic. AVP wasn't considered for the development of Predators, yet still takes place within the same universe. Neither Alien nor Predator stories are required to consider past works, especially if they don't actually contradict said past works (though one could argue that the technology present in Prometheus/Covenant was contradictory to the Alien films).

There is the charles bishop weyland universe and the peter weyland universe. Predators just exist in both.

The evidence seem to support a single shared universe, as I already argued for in my initial comment on this thread.

*The canon 'bible' Fox is using for the Alien series does not include the AVP films according to those who made Alien Covenant.

I can verify this.

+

AvP is cinematically tainted.

Which (if even true) of course means nothing.

Your case seems to boil down to 'because I say so, more is pointing to my opinion' for the most part.

I don't think you will sway anyone's mind with that and think you are frankly put, wasting your time.

Did you read my original comment? Would you care to properly explain why the contents of said comment wasn't adequate? I would dare say I'm holding more to verifiable facts than most people do in these discussions, and I have found that the people who prefers to exclude some installments (regardless if it be AVP, Alien 3, or any other of the twelve films) from the canon are the ones who are more prone to act as if their personal opinions were unquestionable fact.

[The Kurgan]

No it's a canon issue too.  When new stories are developed, we consider other Alien sources - we do not consider AvP.

I'm not sure what that's even supposed to mean or how that relates to the official canon. Obviously stories strictly centered on the Alien  or Predator licenses won't be considering AVP (even though they may reference or be connected to each other, as in the case of Fire and Stone, Life and Death, and The Rage War trilogy for instance), as I'd figure that's the very purpose of the AVP license itself to fill out that role.

If AVP stuff is not considered for the development of new stories in the Alien universe it is not canon to it.
If it would be, they would consider it to avoid contradictions.

That is of course flawed logic. AVP wasn't considered for the development of Predators, yet still takes place within the same universe. Neither Alien nor Predator stories are required to consider past works, especially if they don't actually contradict said past works (though one could argue that the technology present in Prometheus/Covenant was contradictory to the Alien films).

There is the charles bishop weyland universe and the peter weyland universe. Predators just exist in both.

The evidence seem to support a single shared universe, as I already argued for in my initial comment on this thread.

*The canon 'bible' Fox is using for the Alien series does not include the AVP films according to those who made Alien Covenant.

I can verify this.

+

AvP is cinematically tainted.

Which (if even true) of course means nothing.

Your case seems to boil down to 'because I say so, more is pointing to my opinion' for the most part.

I don't think you will sway anyone's mind with that and think you are frankly put, wasting your time.

Did you read my original comment? Would you care to properly explain why the contents of said comment wasn't adequate? I would dare say I'm holding more to verifiable facts than most people do in these discussions, and I have found that the people who prefers to exclude some installments (regardless if it be AVP, Alien 3, or any other of the twelve films) from the canon are the ones who are more prone to act as if their personal opinions were unquestionable fact.

Yes I did.

There is nothing that has not been brought up a dozen times in the short time I'am on this forum.

Probably a lot of times more in the past. 
Iam pretty sure you will find every relevant point addressed here somewhere.

[426Buddy]

At the very least he should comb through "David the Creator" in general discusion.

Maybe we should discuss the egg on the sulaco again.

[TurokSwe]

No it's a canon issue too.  When new stories are developed, we consider other Alien sources - we do not consider AvP.

I'm not sure what that's even supposed to mean or how that relates to the official canon. Obviously stories strictly centered on the Alien  or Predator licenses won't be considering AVP (even though they may reference or be connected to each other, as in the case of Fire and Stone, Life and Death, and The Rage War trilogy for instance), as I'd figure that's the very purpose of the AVP license itself to fill out that role.

If AVP stuff is not considered for the development of new stories in the Alien universe it is not canon to it.
If it would be, they would consider it to avoid contradictions.

That is of course flawed logic. AVP wasn't considered for the development of Predators, yet still takes place within the same universe. Neither Alien nor Predator stories are required to consider past works, especially if they don't actually contradict said past works (though one could argue that the technology present in Prometheus/Covenant was contradictory to the Alien films).

There is the charles bishop weyland universe and the peter weyland universe. Predators just exist in both.

The evidence seem to support a single shared universe, as I already argued for in my initial comment on this thread.

*The canon 'bible' Fox is using for the Alien series does not include the AVP films according to those who made Alien Covenant.

I can verify this.

+

AvP is cinematically tainted.

Which (if even true) of course means nothing.

Your case seems to boil down to 'because I say so, more is pointing to my opinion' for the most part.

I don't think you will sway anyone's mind with that and think you are frankly put, wasting your time.

Did you read my original comment? Would you care to properly explain why the contents of said comment wasn't adequate? I would dare say I'm holding more to verifiable facts than most people do in these discussions, and I have found that the people who prefers to exclude some installments (regardless if it be AVP, Alien 3, or any other of the twelve films) from the canon are the ones who are more prone to act as if their personal opinions were unquestionable fact.

Yes I did.

There is nothing that has not been brought up a dozen times in the short time I'am on this forum.

Probably a lot of times more in the past. 
Iam pretty sure you will find every relevant point addressed here somewhere.

So why not properly address and refute my original comment then?

[TurokSwe]

At the very least he should comb through "David the Creator" in general discusion.

Maybe we should discuss the egg on the sulaco again.

At the very least you could easily explain if there are issues with my initial comment and discussing it, rather than continually cop-out by referring to similar and random diluted discussions which doesn't properly address my arguments.

[The Kurgan]

Honestly, I feel it's obvious that Fox considers these franchises and every single installment - from Alien (1979), Aliens (1986), Predator (1987), Predator 2 (1990), Alien 3 (1992), Alien Resurrection (1997), Alien vs. Predator (2004), Aliens vs. Predator: Requiem (2007), Predators (2010), Prometheus (2012), Alien: Covenant (2017), to The Predator (2018) - to be canonical to each other, they simply act in a manner of continuity similar to the Marvel Cinematic Universe where there are crossovers and separate storylines but they all ultimately take place within the very same fictional (and profitable) universe.

Irrelevant.

It began with Dark Horse Comics first suggesting the concept of the shared universe in 1989 (and had been expanding upon it ever since), and Fox soon officially initiated the concept in 1990 with Predator 2 and the famous Xenomorph skull in the Yautja trophy room, and attempted to produce a feature film throughout the following decade until it was officially cemented together with Alien vs. Predator in 2004 and Aliens vs. Predator: Requiem in 2007, and both films undeniably existing in continuity with both the Alien and Predator films as even openly expressed by the cast and crew behind the films (the directors in particular). Noting that AVPR actually features a Space Jockey skull in the trophy room.

Easteregg or Predator movies are canon to AVP. David created the creature later, contradiction right here.

They existed in continuity and were canon at that time yes. Having since been retconned with Prometheus/Covenant.

Space Jockeys have been retconned  since, so it is a helmet at most. Still easteregg or Predator universe is canon to AVP one.

Then in the same vein as Marvel's Iron Man 3, the 2010 release of Predators continued on a separate storyline but still existed within the same continuity as all previous eight Alien/Predator films and even featured several references to James Cameron's Aliens from 1986 (as this film was intended to act as the Predator-equivalent to Cameron's film) and included, as the director revealed, a Xenomorph lower jaw on the Berserker Predator's mask.

Iron man 3 directly references events from the avengers. Predators only references events from Predator. Plural in the titel does not count.

Where do you get the xeno jaw info from? It looks nothing like one to be sure. All i could find on the fly was that it was some IMDB trivia.

The shared universe would also be further expanded upon through various home video releases (such as Alien/AVP/Predator - The Ultimate Annihilation: Nine Movie Collection), video games (notably Aliens vs. Predator from 2010, AVP: Evolution from 2013, and Aliens vs. Pinball from 2016), comic books, novels, boardgames (such as AVP: The Hunt Begins from 2015 and AVP: Unleashed from 2017), and countless other merchandise and events, so Fox clearly has no interest in dissolving the shared universe anytime soon.

Irrelevant to the topic as there is at least a seperate AVP to commercialize.

Then came Ridley Scott's two prequel films Prometheus in 2012 and Alien: Covenant in 2017 and divided the fanbase further and even though they technically take place within the same universe as the previous nine films (especially when no evident contradictions exists) we don't really speak about these. Although we have to note that the Fire and Stone (2014-2015) and Life and Death (2016-2017) comic books by Dark Horse Comics actually ties together the Alien, Predator, Alien vs. Predator, and Prometheus brands quite explicitly and again confirms continuity, and the events covered in these comics were even acknowledged in the popular Alien: The Weyland-Yutani Report (2014-2016) in the "Company Time Line" section.

I have not read FaS/LaD in a long time, but i seem to recall that covenant retconned it.If only with having David as the origin of the xenomorph. Somebody who knows more about that may give you a better explanation.

Also, to address the common claim that the company histories of Charles Bishop Weyland and Sir Peter Weyland supposedly contradicy each other, I'm going to say that is absolutely false, as there are no contradictions here whatsoever. Charles Weyland formed Weyland Industries sometime around the 1960's or 1970's whereas Peter Weyland was first born on October 1, 1990, and could thus easily be the son of Charles Weyland. Peter's father was after all unnamed and described as a self-taught engineer, which fits with Charles. Interestingly enough, Peter secured a patent for a synthetic trachea on October 1, 2004, and could potentially have cured Charles of his bronchogenic carcinoma (lung cancer), shortly before Charles was declared deceased on October 10, 2004, and it would take eight years before Peter became of age and founded the new Weyland Corporation in 2012, though still keeping the old Weyland Industries intact and the name featured on the corporate website and promotional material for instance.

Peter could simply be understood as having inherited his father's assets and bringing the company back into the spotlight and towards its interstellar destiny (along with Yutani Corporation and the Predator handgun acquired by Miss Yutani from Gunnison, Colorado, in 2004 which aided in the development of such advanced technologies as FTL drives, as according to the directors). Weyland Industries is also mentioned in a Sevastolink terminal in the 2014 video game Alien: Isolation and Weyland Corporation is featured on the main meny of the 2013 video game AVP: Evolution.

However I'm certainly not the first to suggest this. Alien Theory further elaborates on this; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkc4_9YIqI0

Guesswork/Fantheory.

There is a whole thread about the Weylands that discusses that.

Further addressing another common claim that the synthetic David supposedly created the Xenomorphs in Alien: Covenant and thus setting up a supposed contradiction with the AVP films featuring Xenomorphs on Earth in 2004, this is not actually made clear in the movie itself, but it leaves such an issue up to interpretation. However, this is cleared up in the official novelization by Alan Dean Foster (who not only wrote the first three Alien novelizations but also wrote a tie-in novel to the film titled Alien: Covenant - Origins), where David elaborates and states quite clearly that he did in fact NOT create the Xenomorphs, but the Engineers (Space Jockeys) actually did, and David merely used what they had already created, including the black goo pathogen and pre-existing Ovomorphs (that is Xenomorph eggs), to create his own variants of these star beasts or "perfect organisms". Prometheus itself showed that Xenomorph-like creatures are very easily produced through the black goo, and this substance has seemingly existed for billions of years, giving more than enough time for Xenomorphs to be produced several times, and even if it were true that David was the ultimate creator of the Xenomorphs, you still could not rule out time travel (but we clearly don't need to go there).

Noting further that if the very existence of AVP/AVPR and the Predator films for that matter weren't enough to prove that David didn't create the Xenomorphs, then perhaps the home video release of Prometheus would change your mind with its inclusion of Peter Weyland's log "Quite Eye" which quite clearly states that the company already detected the distress signal from the crashed Derelict ship (containing all those Ovomorphs) on LV-426 before the events of Prometheus/Covenant (and it would be consistent with Captain Dallas' assessment of the Space Jockey pilot being fossilized and implied to be ancient). Even the now-defunct online MU/TH/UR 6000 interface on the Alien Universe website had classified information on such topics as Predators/Yautja.

There has been about 3 threads about David as the creator that discusses that.

Then of course came The Predator in 2018 and further confirmed that the shared universe indeed still remains intact, with several references to Alien vs. Predator from 2004 such as Lex's spear which the Scar Predator made out of a Xenomorph's tail, as well as references to the Alien films such as the alternate endings which were approved, produced, and filmed featuring Ripley and Newt (which would seemingly suggest time travel technology and thus set up the arrival of Neill Blomkamp's Alien 5 and allow for his film and Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection to exist simultaneously).

Easteregg or AvP is canon to the Predator universe only.

Alternate ending does not count in any way, would contradict every Alien film anyway as Ripley and Newt are both not born at that time and are currently both dead. An unproduced film does not count either.

After all, Fox is sitting on a real goldmine with the shared universe (if only they could handle it better), and they may indeed still be interested in going forward with AVP3 (as even Shane Black would suggest), especially now that they won't let Scott make any more Alien films after his recent failures. Personally, I completely acknowledge the shared universe as canon (not to mention how silly, petty, and unnecessarily confusing it would be to suggest some films takes place in some alternate universe), and I'm very welcoming of continuing to expand this shared franchise, especially seeing as I grew up with it and still loves it to death. Anyway, we'll see where it all goes from here on under the new rule of Disney.

Irrelevant to the topic plus people who don't agree with me are petty/silly.


TLDR: Your whole case is build on the hypothesis that David did not create the xenomorph and that the two Weylands don't contradict themselves. If he did or they do, your whole case collapses as that would contradict everything else.

So every information you need is in the respective threads.

[Samhain13]

Disney will just retcon all this crap later on.

[The Kurgan]

Maybe it's for the better.

[TurokSwe]

That was probably one of the laziest responses I've ever seen.

Irrelevant.

It was an introductory statement making clear what seems to be the simplest and most reasonable approach. Hardly irrelevant.

Easteregg or Predator movies are canon to AVP.

It is an easter egg, but an officially endorsed one (the skull would after all require an in-universe explanation). The Alien, Predator, and AVP films are all canon to each other. There is no clear separating line.

David created the creature later, contradiction right here.

Not a contradiction, since the claim isn't well-supported to begin with (as was cleared up later on in my response).

They existed in continuity and were canon at that time yes.

Glad we can agree on that (so also the easter egg from before can be seriously considered).

Having since been retconned with Prometheus/Covenant.

Which is a poorly supported claim.

Space Jockeys have been retconned  since, so it is a helmet at most.

Excuse me? Space Jockeys haven't been "retconned", they are featured in Prometheus/Covenant for crying out loud! xD

Still easteregg or Predator universe is canon to AVP one.

Again, it is an easter egg, but that doesn't matter, and this is indeed a connection to the Alien films (and Prometheus/Covenant).

Iron man 3 directly references events from the avengers. Predators only references events from Predator. Plural in the titel does not count.

That's because Stark's memories of the events played a role in the movie. The movie doesn't need to reference any particular former works in order for it to be understood as existing in the same universe. The plural title was added to emulate Cameron's Aliens (as well as referring to both the alien Predators and the human predators), and there were many other references and similarities, such as Isabelle using the line "I'll do us both" to Edwin like Hicks did to Ripley, as well as the sole survivor Noland and the crew surviving within some sort of facility like Newt and company did. Robert Rodriguez did state after all that he was going to include Aliens references as io9 reported.

Where do you get the xeno jaw info from? It looks nothing like one to be sure. All i could find on the fly was that it was some IMDB trivia.

It was reported by Movieclips (noting that Xenomorphs can have different appearances and it does look Xenomorph-like); https://www.facebook.com/movieclips/photos/a.10150140182467139/10151396339407139/

Irrelevant to the topic as there is at least a seperate AVP to commercialize.

How is it "irrelevant"? There is only one AVP license.

I have not read FaS/LaD in a long time, but i seem to recall that covenant retconned it.

It didn't, and in such a case I suppose it "retconned" The Weyland-Yutani Report as well. All these claims that "this is retconned and this is non-canon" is absolutely getting silly.

If only with having David as the origin of the xenomorph.

But again, that's apparently a false claim (as was again explained later on in my comment).

Somebody who knows more about that may give you a better explanation.

If you can't make an adequate case (but have to rely on somebody else doing it), then why even attempt to refute my points?

Guesswork/Fantheory.

It's not, as these words of mine were merely intended to demonstrate how there is no contradiction between Charles and Peter, as well as clarifying that the simplest understanding of the relationship of these two characters is that of a father and son. Whatever you choose to believe is up to you, I'm merely presenting the most reasonable explanation.

There is a whole thread about the Weylands that discusses that.

Again, if you can't make a good and clear-cut case here (but have to continually refer to some random and diluted thread elsewhere which doesn't properly address my arguments), then why even bother to respond? It's nothing but disrespectful and lazy. No offense.

There has been about 3 threads about David as the creator that discusses that.

Once more, if you can't address the issue, then why even bother to respond at all?

Easteregg or AvP is canon to the Predator universe only.

At this point you're just being obnoxious.

Alternate ending does not count in any way, would contradict every Alien film anyway as Ripley and Newt are both not born at that time and are currently both dead.

I believe you missed the point, it was the very fact that they actually approved, produced, and filmed these alternate scenes AT ALL which made it clear that Fox clearly considers the Alien and Predator films to be officially connected, otherwise they would never have even produced these scenes. Also, no, it wouldn't contradict any film, as these scenes would clearly indicate time travel (especially as Newt is shown to be an adult). There is absolutely no way you can reasonably explain all this away.

An unproduced film does not count either.

I never said it did, and it sounds like you misunderstood what I was saying (perhaps you didn't carefully read my comment at all).

Irrelevant to the topic plus people who don't agree with me are petty/silly.

It was a closing statement absolutely relevant to the topic, and stating "how silly, petty, and unnecessarily confusing it would be to suggest some films takes place in some alternate universe" is merely me addressing ridiculous arguments and hopefully someone will take it to heart.

TLDR: Your whole case is build on the hypothesis that David did not create the xenomorph and that the two Weylands don't contradict themselves. If he did or they do, your whole case collapses as that would contradict everything else.

That is absolutely false. The portion dealing with Charles, Peter, and David was only one part of the entire case. Please, re-read my entire comment again carefully.

So every information you need is in the respective threads.

Again, that's a lazy and disrespectful response, you might as well never have bothered to waste your time responding.

Disney will just retcon all this crap later on.

There is no telling what Disney might do, they might just opt for a soft-reboot rendering the franchise PG-13, only time will tell.

Maybe it's for the better.

Perhaps it would be, though they might just go for a PG-13 soft-reboot. Though somehow it would still be a shame to leave all previous twelve films behind rather than building upon the universe they've established.

[The Kurgan]

TLDR: Your whole case is build on the hypothesis that David did not create the xenomorph and that the two Weylands don't contradict themselves. If he did or they do, your whole case collapses as that would contradict everything else.

That is absolutely false. The portion dealing with Charles, Peter, and David was only one part of the entire case. Please, re-read my entire comment again carefully.

It all builds on David as the creator being "not well-supported" or "false". If you assume it to be actually true, your whole case folds.

If David creates the xenomorph that contradicts both AVP movies, the skull in P2, the jaw in Predators and FaS/LaD kicking them out of the Alien canon. And if Covenant kicks AVP out of the canon it does not matter anymore if or if not Peter contradicts Charles and how they are related.

You can claim it is false or not well-supported all you want, it is stated in Covenant and clarified by Ridley. David is or is not the creator is the only discussion that matters here, as your case stands or falls dependent on the result.

And there are enough threads about that already, it is not necessary to open yet another discussion about the same thing here.

[The Old One]

Can we end this discussion forever by taking all the "everything is canon"-ers...

[TurokSwe]

TLDR: Your whole case is build on the hypothesis that David did not create the xenomorph and that the two Weylands don't contradict themselves. If he did or they do, your whole case collapses as that would contradict everything else.

That is absolutely false. The portion dealing with Charles, Peter, and David was only one part of the entire case. Please, re-read my entire comment again carefully.

It all builds on David as the creator being "not well-supported" or "false". If you assume it to be actually true, your whole case folds.

If David creates the xenomorph that contradicts both AVP movies, the skull in P2, the jaw in Predators and FaS/LaD kicking them out of the Alien canon. And if Covenant kicks AVP out of the canon it does not matter anymore if or if not Peter contradicts Charles and how they are related.

You can claim it is false or not well-supported all you want, it is stated in Covenant and clarified by Ridley. David is or is not the creator is the only discussion that matters here, as your case stands or falls dependent on the result.

And there are enough threads about that already, it is not necessary to open yet another discussion about the same thing here.

Again, the evidence as presented in my OP (both within Prometheus/Covenant and outside) makes it very clear that David did not create the Xenomorphs, and even IF he did (noting that he clearly didn't), time travel could still not be ruled out, especially since The Predator already hinted at this being possible. So no, my case does NOT rest on whether or not David created the Xenomorphs, but my case would stand regardless which option you choose to go with as I already explained in my OP. I repeat, the movie itself doesn't take a stance on the issue but leaves it up to interpretation, and the official novelization for the film as well as the home video release of Prometheus (along with various other cited evidence) makes it abundantly clear that he did not create them (noting again that Scott's words on the matter are irrelevant not only because he constantly changes his mind but also because he's being contradicted by various other sources, such as The Predator, as already outlined in my OP).

[Samhain13]

And ruin all the fun? I don't even remember an avpgalaxy without canon wars. Its part of it.