What if Gorman was a veteran?

[SiL]

Hudson was looking at schematics. Marines aren't taught situational awareness?

[Layorz]

Marines are taught to follow the chain of command, Gorman said fetch, they did. Gorman substitute might have said fetch without guns.

[stephen]

Potential actions taken by a veteran commander (please note I'm not a veteran so I'm taking guesses and while I'm providing a possible scenario here probably full of holes I'm neither advocating for or against this scenario but simply offering it up as a possible difference).

1. The commander would have read Ripley's report on disk and would have known the contents in depth.  Would have also spoken to Ripley at length if nothing else but to determine her trustworthiness.  Would have possibly even read details of the inquest.  (Gorman may have even done all of this).

2. Once getting to the colony, would have ruled out before even touching the ground the "downed transmitter".  Would have secured the area, perhaps in a different manner then what was done - not sending in all marines at once but keeping a few in the APC to act as backup.  Would have very quickly realised that something very bad had happened and Ripley's information is looking more and more correct.  Again - something

3. Would use the PDT's to find them as shown, but would have (if not already before arriving - in fact possible areas of concern - like not firing weapons to damage the structure should have possibly been brought up before even leaving the sulaco) have studied the floor plans of the processor and would have devised concerns about firing weapons in there.

4. Two marines (Wiezberski & Crowe) would have stayed with the APC while the rest would have gone down to the entrance to the nest "I can't make that out to well what is it Hudson?".  At this point, Ripley's testimony is to be believed and the dangers of the creature/s they're dealing with becomes very real.

5. Dropship is hovering staying on station ready to be called in.

5. Four Marines (Apone, Drake, Hudson & Dietrich) enter the nest along with Bishop who is armed with a flamethrower, Three marines (Vasquez, Hicks, Frost) remain at the entrance to the nest.  This way escape route is left open.

6. Bishop takes point at critical junctures.  If it is only at this point that the issue with firing the weapons in there is found out, then bishop is armed with a flamethrower at this point and is required to move forward.  At seeing the colonists, hung up on the walls and obviously dead an assessment is made by the commander at that point, knowing that weapons can't be fired in there and knowing that the creatures in Ripley's report are real.  Also, given that the entire colony has been overrun, and having seen the evidence of the "last stand" etc, it would be prudent to think that the enemy you face is a damned handful.  The colonists would have only had limited weapons and the marines are now almost on the same footing, limited weapons, and in the heart of the nest.  The assessment made by the commander is to either bug out right then to make a report to back home or to send bishop further in.

7. If sending Bishop in is the assessment, the marines in the nest stay put and wait for bishop's call.  Bishop goes as far as he can and either encounters aliens or he doesn't. If encounter is made, Marines in the nest are under orders to retreat immediately.  So Marines in the nest retreat back to the entrance of the hive and the other marines who were guarding their escape, then together they all retreat back up to the APC.

8. APC leaves processor and gets picked up by Dropship.

Secondary scenario also involves the APC going down to the bottom floor where Ripley took it to get the marines out and have the marines load out from there.

The whole point is that an experienced veteran commander would have recognised the threat and employed tactics to compensate.

[Local Trouble]

Not bad.  If nothing else, it's a plausible alternative.

[stephen]

If people have issues with Bishop being armed then he doesn't have to be.

Also, I believe a big difference is having the dropship hovering and staying on station (I mean WTF were they doing when their buddies were getting pulverised).  They weren't there to have bishop study facehuggers, as Sil rightly pointed out before, they're there for the colonists.  Bishop should have at the VERY least stayed with the APC with the dropship hovering in the sky ready for immediate pickup and back up for the marines.

Also the fact that not one marine stayed with the APC is ridiculous.  Especially considering civilians were on board.

[Kimarhi]

Gorman was a veteran.

He had a combat drop.

He did not appear to be a combat veteran.  I deployed to a combat zone in which there was no combat.  Thus I am a veteran, but I am not a combat veteran. 

The problem was partly him, and partly because the Marines appeared to have bought into being invincible badasses that quickly overstepped their capabilities by minimalizing ripley's encounter and being generally lackadaisical about potentially life threatening circumstances.

Most of the time you have to call for close air support.  Fuel is finite.

Stephen is pretty close to some tactics the military actually uses but off on others.

Bishop is arguably the most important member of the crew.  Driving the APC (which doesn't appear difficult) and also remote piloting the dropship from the sulaco as well as being capable of studying foreign life forms.  Putting him on point and having him wasted would negate that advantage and leave the crew stranded if they were trapped planetside by some other means.

The dropship might've been lightly guarded but it did not appear to be vacated as Ferro is never seen outside of the dropship that I can recall.

You wouldn't need to leave marines to protect the apc when it is covered in turrets with a marine inside.  In the olden days they used to stick infantry outside of tanks to draw fire as they maneuvered to make it harder for them to use anti tank rockets on armored pieces, but now that tanks and apcs are twice as fast as they used to be with some even having rocket defeating technology.  I imagine the future this is amplified.

Some of the other stuff kind of works. When you raid a house you leave a team outside so when you enter the house anybody pushed upwards in front of an open window, out the back, on the roof can be captured or killed by the outside force as well as allowing a safe exfil point should you need one.

Your soldiers attitudes or usually a reflection of leadership.  The veteran marines new they could get away with much under the green commander.

Fundamentals must always be reinforced.  They suck but they are there for a reason.  I feel these marines got used to being away from command authority and had gotten complacent.  It happens.  When it does its sort of like being at a macho barbecue and you don't ever want to go back to the spit and polish of garrison.  Because it sucks.

[SM]

Bishop isn't military despite being programmed to pilot an APC and dropship.

He couldn't fire on some crazed civilian  if they came up against them.

And he's probably not cheap either.

[stephen]

Gorman was a veteran.

He had a combat drop.

He did not appear to be a combat veteran.  I deployed to a combat zone in which there was no combat.  Thus I am a veteran, but I am not a combat veteran. 

The problem was partly him, and partly because the Marines appeared to have bought into being invincible badasses that quickly overstepped their capabilities by minimalizing ripley's encounter and being generally lackadaisical about potentially life threatening circumstances.

Most of the time you have to call for close air support.  Fuel is finite.

Stephen is pretty close to some tactics the military actually uses but off on others.

Bishop is arguably the most important member of the crew.  Driving the APC (which doesn't appear difficult) and also remote piloting the dropship from the sulaco as well as being capable of studying foreign life forms.  Putting him on point and having him wasted would negate that advantage and leave the crew stranded if they were trapped planetside by some other means.

The dropship might've been lightly guarded but it did not appear to be vacated as Ferro is never seen outside of the dropship that I can recall.

You wouldn't need to leave marines to protect the apc when it is covered in turrets with a marine inside.  In the olden days they used to stick infantry outside of tanks to draw fire as they maneuvered to make it harder for them to use anti tank rockets on armored pieces, but now that tanks and apcs are twice as fast as they used to be with some even having rocket defeating technology.  I imagine the future this is amplified.

Some of the other stuff kind of works. When you raid a house you leave a team outside so when you enter the house anybody pushed upwards in front of an open window, out the back, on the roof can be captured or killed by the outside force as well as allowing a safe exfil point should you need one.

Your soldiers attitudes or usually a reflection of leadership.  The veteran marines new they could get away with much under the green commander.

Fundamentals must always be reinforced.  They suck but they are there for a reason.  I feel these marines got used to being away from command authority and had gotten complacent.  It happens.  When it does its sort of like being at a macho barbecue and you don't ever want to go back to the spit and polish of garrison.  Because it sucks.

Thanks for clearing a lot of that up.  When I say veteran I really mean experienced.  I apologise.

I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that marines should have stayed in the APC, Gorman was the operational guy so to have him drive the APC when everyone is out is a bit silly I think.

Your point about Bishop is valid.  Also the point about the marines getting complacent is also valid.

Whether the dropship was actually hovering or on the ground, I think it was a rookie mistake to not have spunkmeyer on board at all times and to have the thing locked up tight.

[SM]

The area was secured.  There was no immediate threat.

[stephen]

Bishop isn't military despite being programmed to pilot an APC and dropship.

He couldn't fire on some crazed civilian  if they came up against them.

too true.

And he's probably not cheap either.

like that matters to the military lol.

The area was secured.  There was no immediate threat.

Obviously not.

Even so, I still wouldn't have had Bishop studying facehuggers and spunkmeyer running backwards and forwards when the rest of my team is entering a hostile environment.

[SM]

Hindsight is 20/20.

like that matters to the military lol.

The military isn't paying for him.

[stephen]

Hindsight is 20/20.

Hindsight would be my super power.  But I still think it does not make any operational sense to have Bishop doing what he was doing and spunkmeyer running to and fro from the dropship when they were entering the nest.

like that matters to the military lol.

The military isn't paying for him.
[/quote]

My point exactly.

[SiL]

But I still think it does not make any operational sense to have Bishop doing what he was doing and spunkmeyer running to and fro from the dropship when they were entering the nest.

Spunkmeyer, maybe, but why can't Bishop be dissecting huggers? He's not working for the marines.

My point exactly.

Which makes him someone else's property and not an asset they can throw into dangerous situations.

[stephen]

But I still think it does not make any operational sense to have Bishop doing what he was doing and spunkmeyer running to and fro from the dropship when they were entering the nest.

Spunkmeyer, maybe, but why can't Bishop be dissecting huggers? He's not working for the marines.

My point exactly.

Which makes him someone else's property and not an asset they can throw into dangerous situations.

From an operational stand point they were entering a dangerous situation. From a cover all bases including escape perspective it makes no sense for bishop to be where he was at that time.

As for throwing him into dangerous situations, what the hell then is he doing there in the first place. Granted marching him through the nest is different but he was being utilised by the marines at least up until the study of the face huggers. He was driving the apc for example. At the very least he should have continued in that capacity whe they entered the nest

[SiL]

From an operational stand point they were entering a dangerous situation.

They didn't know that.

As for throwing him into dangerous situations, what the hell then is he doing there in the first place.

What? That's like asking why were Ripley or Burke there if they weren't going to make them walk point. He's a non-combatant. He's a back-up pilot and he's there to help out, not arm himself with a flamethrower (Which he can't do; he wouldn't even take a pistol to defend himself against Aliens) and march into potential combat situations.