Poll: AvP vs AvPR

[SpaceMarines]

Alright, I can respect that. You are entitled to your opinion, no matter how abhorrently wrong it may be.

[SiL]

You can have mindless action that isn't total horseshit.

Commando, as you mentioned. Cheesy? Sure, but it's not taking itself seriously, and it's not a sequel to respected movie. It also, at least, has some internal logic - It was a dumb movie made by relatively smart people. AvPR was a dumb movie made by idiots.

[szuran]

So, AVPR is a sequel to a respected movie now?

Besides, I don't think it's horseshit.

You see, the difference between our posts is that I try to justify my opinions, while the only thing you say is "AVPR is horseshit made by idiots". That's not a good way to discuss things.

[SpaceMarines]

I believe he was referring to Alien and Predator.

[SiL]

I used to write very long posts about how every single thing in AvPR is worthless, but after doing it a few years, I decided to give it a rest.

[szuran]

And that's great because I won't argue that there are some stupid moments, but there are some stupid moments in Aliens as well (i.e. the horrible ending, with the queen hanging on Rambo... I mean Ripley, trying not to be sucked into space). Every Alien movie has many, many screenplay flaws, but it's not the script that makes them so good. It's a) setting, b) characters, c) monsters. AVPR has (IMO) nice setting and great monsters. So it's enough for me to like it (not to love it or worship it, though). The story is logical ENOUGH for me not to care (I'm not watching it for the story; I've seen 5 alien movies and 3 predator movies before and I don't expect it to be fresh or interesting), not like the first AVP. AVPR delivers what I wanted to see.

You see, I've got two judgement methods for two kinds of movies: one is for ambitious projects that want to screw with my brain (and I'm strict and severe when i judge them), and one is for "pure fun mindless dumb shit", where I'm much more tolerant. AVPR is the second kind.

[Celtic-predator]

I used to write very long posts about how every single thing in AvPR is worthless, but after doing it a few years, I decided to give it a rest.

Copy paste?

I watched AVP last night again and I have to say it LOOKS great (except the predators), but it's the dumbest piece of mind diarrhea I've ever seen. I like some shots - like the satellite, the spaceship floating over that guy's head, or Grid owning one of the preds - but I HATE the dialogues, the main chick character or idiotic plot. It gets 7/10 for looks and 1/10 for the rest.

AVPR, on the other hand, is incredibly straightforward and mindless, but it's coherent enough not to care about it's flaws. It's a fan movie - the best I've ever seen. It consists ONLY of references, but their put together quite nice. I like it. It's pure fun. Not a bit ambitious, but Anderson had ambitions and look what he's done to the franchise. I like AVPR and I'm not ashamed to say this. 8/10

Could you explain why you think the dialogue, protagonist and plot is so terrible please?
I personally think AvPR was a terrible piece of cinematography. The lighting was terrible, there was a teen drama, numerous in-universe flaws and a very clichéd way of introducing both species. Most of the characters were stereotypes of teenagers, with little to no complexity or depth. Plot was nonexistent.
I thought having Jesse taking off her clothes was a cheap way of attracting people's attentions.

You see, I've got two judgement methods for two kinds of movies: one is for ambitious projects that want to screw with my brain (and I'm strict and severe when i judge them), and one is for "pure fun mindless dumb shit", where I'm much more tolerant. AVPR is the second kind.

Ah. See I judge ALL movies by a similar criterion, because I believe that's fairer. If you think you should divide movies into separate categories based on a whim and rate them by separate systems that's fine. But what if you get it wrong. What if a movie that you thought was ambitious was actually mindless dumb shit. Maybe you just misinterpreted the director, etc. Plus that method seems a bit complex when comparing movies of the two types. It's why websites have a common rating system (usually out of 100 or 10.) 

[SiL]

I like big dumb mindless movies as much as the next guy, but there's a limit to what I can tolerate.

Mindlessness doesn't necessitate incompetence, which is what AvPR is. Commando is mindless, but well done - We want Arnie to win and the action scenes have some level of tension to them. We know Arnie is going to win at the end, but we're still excited to see it happened because it's built up. He's on a time limit, his little girl's in danger, and there's a literal army of people between him and her - Bam, tension. And the pay off is one of the greatest pieces of over-the-top 80s action cinema ever.

Predator 2 is a pretty cheesy, brainless movie, but again, it's done with much more competence than AvPR. Its flaws in logic don't stand up and slap me in the face on the first viewing. It doesn't make my brain hurt. It actually tries to make some level of sense.

AvPR does none of this.

I don't give two shits about the characters. The plot isn't engaging. There is zero tension to the entire movie. There is no horror, and no excitement. The action scenes are curt, over before they've begun, and never once are we lead to believe Wolf might have a hard time of this. He's injured more by an incidental piece of metal than a drone Alien throughout the entire film.

It's the equivalent of a school yard bully beating up on disabled kids. It's not entertaining. Action for the sake of action does not work (for me; I shouldn't have to say that, but someone will inevitably say "But it does for me!". Good for you, hypothetical person; this rant is subjective), there has to be some reason for it or it's just a bunch of murky bullshit on the screen. Why should I care who wins or lose? And if I don't care, what's the point in watching?

The movie is dragged down by this inescapable immaturity that drips from every single frame. AvP suffers the same fate, sure. But at least Anderson tried. At the very least I can appreciate that AvP at least makes an effort to be more than illogical, arbitrary action with as much emotional or visceral impact as watching paint dry. AvPR doesn't, and to me, that makes it infinitely worse. It's flawed on such a wholly fundamental level that not even my lowest expectations can reach it.

Yeah, it's got action, it's got gore - But they've got no impact. They're just images on a screen. Commando makes me care about the outcome of the action. Cannibal Holocaust outright forces me to care about the gore. Classic action and horror movies from the 80s might be mindless, and inform a lot of AvPR's decisions, but at the very least they come up with half a reason I should give a shit.

[szuran]

Could you explain why you think the dialogue, protagonist and plot is so terrible please?

Dialogue was mailny very cheesy. Like Anderson didn't do any research on the topic (i mean pyramids and stuff).

"My experts told me it's a pyramid. One expert tells me it's cambodian(...)"

Well, what experts? Just experts? They know that based on what? It isn't even shaped like a pyramid. Besides, calling them "experts" is lazy. Couldn't he come up with a name? "Dr. Fukovitch tells me it's cambodian", and then Sebastian answers "Dr. Fukovitch is often wrong. But I think this time he's right". It's so simple and much better than Anderson's lazy writing.

Also, I don't like telling the audience what they see. Predator is marking himself. Sebastian: "He's marking himself". OH REALLY? Does Anderson think i'm some kind of a moron? Or when they see the green flare, the chick says "we're direclty below the chamber". No shit, how did she figure that out? It's the same mistake Predators' writers made.

I personally think AvPR was a terrible piece of cinematography. The lighting was terrible, there was a teen drama, numerous in-universe flaws and a very clichéd way of introducing both species. Most of the characters were stereotypes of teenagers, with little to no complexity or depth. Plot was nonexistent.
I thought having Jesse taking off her clothes was a cheap way of attracting people's attentions.

Ok, it's your opinion; i like the photography in this movie, I don't like the cutting. It's dark, but it depends on a TV you use. Besides, the scaled-up dvd looks fine.

Now, let's analyze the characters. There's nothing to analyze, so: there's this convict, a teenager with his girlfirend, a cop, a soldier lady, a child and some other people we don't get to know because they die instantly. Each of main characters has his or hers storyline with background, so what would you excpet from a teenager if not a teenage drama? Besides, it's not that exposed. I seriously don't know why people don't like it so much. It's nothing really engaging, but it's not horrible.

But what if you get it wrong. What if a movie that you thought was ambitious was actually mindless dumb shit.

Errare humanum est. Besides, those are only my opinions. I don't force anyone to agree. Although I like to discuss them.

Plus that method seems a bit complex when comparing movies of the two types. It's why websites have a common rating system (usually out of 100 or 10.)

Sure, but don't treat every move like it's a form of art, or a mindless action flick, right? Because had you really used one judgement system with all movies, you'd have to give Requiem for a Dream a 0/10, cause there's no action and hardy any dialogue; or Terminator would get 1/10, because it doesn't have any deep characterization of main heroes.

Everything is relative. That's why I enjoy the first Alien and AVPR as well.


@SiL

That's your opinion. I don't think AVPR is incompetent. It's incompetence isn't some objective truth. And i'm afraid the problem is you can't accept it.

[SiL]

It's incompetence isn't some objective truth.

When dealing with film-making, sure, there are objective levels of looking at whether something is competently or incompetently handled. There are rules to filmmaking and standards for storytelling that have been established over a hundred, and thousands, of years.

AvPR is, by any means, a shit film. Am I saying it's not enjoyable? No. And I never claimed that - Some people are really interested by watching paint dry.

But (for me) its objective shittiness outweighs (for me) any potential entertainment value (for me).

[The Ghoul]

ok i will say avpr is rather lame and stupid but i still enjoy it every once in a while. I guess i can just enjoy stupidity, the movie did need alot of f**king work though. So much crap they got so wrong at times lol.

anyways both movies need work and i still think they should get off there asses and make a truely good avp movie. But like you can expect though a movie with versus in its title is generally going to be a crapy cross over. Because making cross overs are tough and no one wants to put in the work for a good one. Doesn't mean its not possible though but no matter how hard you try it still won't be as good as a movie with a pure plot. By that i mean like one monster and problem revoling around the character and that monster. While two different monster brings in two different type of problems which causes confussion and agruments and ect. BUt if they tried really hard they still could make a damn good AVP movie.

i also tend to enjoy a wide varity of films, but if i just want watch some some stupid senseless action, i'll watch a movie like avpr but normally i tend to go for movies with a plot of some type.

[DoomRulz]

Personally, and I just want to put this out there, I watch Requiem because it's good, mindless, fun. The plot holes, bad writing, bad acting, and dumbass Aliens are painful to watch, but...I dunno, first likings die hard.

[SpaceMarines]

I found nothing fun about having the urge to gouge out my own eyeballs, but hey; everybody has different taste.

[First Blood]

At the end of the day...Commandos and Colonial Marines couldn't survive these creatures. But who walks out alive?! The pizza dweeb. And Dallas' "Get to the choppa" nearly wasn't as memorable. 

[SpaceMarines]

Everything was just so unsatisfying. The National Guard could have provided this film with good action and tension, and they get killed in what, 30, 40 seconds?