Alien or Predator?

[Dark Passenger]

While Cameron's film didn't do anything that contridicts Kane's son they did act simplier.

Also they became bugs relying on numbers. From Aliens onward Aliens have been bugs. Prior to Aliens they were not seen as bugs.

the only time the aliens dont need numbers is when the human are unarmed (alien and alien 3) in aliens and alien res they seemed weak because the humans had firepower.

[Hive Tyrant]

The Aliens didn't adapt... or at least, not as fast as I had expected/hoped. Take that one Alien who has seen quite a bunch of his fellows being blown up by explosive pulse rifle rounds and decides to stick his head into an APC filled with humans with guns anyway.

We all know what happened next. 

[ScoobySnax]

Slumber Party?

[Quick N Slick]

Not just numbers; living in a hive also gave that impression, along with having a Queen, like a bee colony.

Termites, man. Termites have colonies

[Quick N Slick]

That's certainly an arguable standpoint. They certainly never do anything that contradicts Kane's Son.

There is still nothing in the film, at the end of the day, to show their intellect surpasses humans.

And there's nothing in the film depicting them as Lovecraftian nightmare warriors created from the stuff of shadows... yet that's still a part of the concept under O'Bannon's writing and definitely a part of Giger's direction in bringing the creature to life.

Absolutes aren't as important as the thematic concepts.

I actually prefer the portrayal of them as mindless termite-esque beasts. They just have so many advantages already, physically & all, that when you combine that with their numbers, well...I like a creature to be exploitable in weakness somewhere, no matter how badass it may be. More believable that way, IMO.

Believability, for me, is in the atmosphere and the draw of any given film. Alien did that with acting that I couldn't tell was acting, characters that seemed organic, architecture that never made me question the film and a creature that was so powerfully close to its namesake that it instantly became more believable than any other monster bearing the name.

The lack of weaknesses part is the Lovecraftian aspect speaking. His monsters rarely had any sort of weakness, simply because they represented the iron fist of reality that can slam you into place. And Lovecraft knew all about that, too - he was the son of a wealthy couple, both of whom died early in his life, forcing him to spend his 40 or so years in poverty and misery.

Aliens having any real weakness is really a subversion of the original film and the underlying concept. They're supposed to seem insurmountable and unstoppable. Because that's good cinema.

Seem, yes. Seem unstoppable. Not actually be unstoppable. The more realistic on certain levels these fantastic stories of sci-fi can manage to be, the greater their impact --- for me. That's just my take. Some people like it the more, 'out-there' the better, though.

[blade5674]

Predator hands down they rely on skill and knowledge as well strength and brute force

[SiL]

He posed more of a threat like that.

No, he didn't.

Arnie was physically incapable of hurting the Predator. Giving Arnie a chance would be stripping himself of weapons and giving Arnie a shotgun.

[Valaquen]

While Cameron's film didn't do anything that contridicts Kane's son they did act simplier.

The Aliens didn't adapt... or at least, not as fast as I had expected/hoped. Take that one Alien who has seen quite a bunch of his fellows being blown up by explosive pulse rifle rounds and decides to stick his head into an APC filled with humans with guns anyway.

We all know what happened next. 

Not sure, the Aliens in Aliens employed ambush tactics and guerilla-like abilities, cutting off supplies like power and kamikaze attacks. In Aliens you have to think of the creatures as being agentic, acting for the better of the Hive, their own lives unimportant. They are the ultimate utilitarians. Throwing themselves at machineguns in order to merely cause distraction or waste their opponents ammo is not dumb behaviour, it's scare/kamikaze tactics. In Alien, the creature acted much more randomly, almost as though it were lost, it could have slaughtered the crew at any point once fully grown, but it spent more time hiding, only killing when disturbed (though not in the case of Parker and Lambert). The sexual overtones were gone in Aliens, the Xenos were an army here, the Queen represented femininity and was the only sexual creature abound. Of course, she wasn't a rapist, but her womanly features such as slim waist, high heel protrusions and egg-laying still related to the theme of sex & death. The best comparison for the Xenos in Aliens would be kamikaze/suicide bombers, which is terrifying in its own right. When a horde of creatures are literally throwing themselves at you with no fear of death or injury (and when their very own death/injury can kill you), well, that's a scary prospect.

[SiL]

Cameron made individual Aliens boring to watch, and that's my biggest beef.

The original Alien chewed scenery; Cameron's Aliens were dull and uninteresting unless they were in a mass moving across a motion tracker screen.

[Valaquen]

Cameron made individual Aliens boring to watch, and that's my biggest beef.

The original Alien chewed scenery; Cameron's Aliens were dull and uninteresting unless they were in a mass moving across a motion tracker screen.

I guess it's a subjective point, I know that I and many others were very excited and nervous watching Aliens, and it's the movie where you won't see a Xeno on its own for more than a moment so the focus isn't on individual creatures but on the mass. Their behaviour and design was very interesting to me, and seeing them slipping out of walls and yet no one can see them was pulse quickening.

[SiL]

I guess it's a subjective point, I know that I and many others were very excited and nervous watching Aliens,

Same here. Took me five viewings before I could get through the lead-up to Operations without thinking I was going to implode from the tension

and it's the movie where you won't see a Xeno on its own for more than a moment so the focus isn't on individual creatures but on the mass. Their behaviour and design was very interesting to me, and seeing them slipping out of walls and yet no one can see them was pulse quickening.

Yes, but they had no personality. They're zombies. Every one is indistinguishable from the last. There's no sense that these are all independent thinking beings.

It's most noticeable when you watch the first two movies back to back. The difference between the portrayals is really striking - Hell, any movie right after Alien, and you wonder how the f**k they managed to do what they did using Alien as a starting point

[Valaquen]

I guess it's a subjective point, I know that I and many others were very excited and nervous watching Aliens,

Same here. Took me five viewings before I could get through the lead-up to Operations without thinking I was going to implode from the tension

and it's the movie where you won't see a Xeno on its own for more than a moment so the focus isn't on individual creatures but on the mass. Their behaviour and design was very interesting to me, and seeing them slipping out of walls and yet no one can see them was pulse quickening.

Yes, but they had no personality. They're zombies. Every one is indistinguishable from the last. There's no sense that these are all independent thinking beings.

It's most noticeable when you watch the first two movies back to back. The difference between the portrayals is really striking - Hell, any movie right after Alien, and you wonder how the f**k they managed to do what they did using Alien as a starting point

I think that was the point though, they're not autonomous creatures, they're a hive mind. It's radically different from the space stalker in Alien, but I think it was an interesting change, with the focus being the matriarch as both hive-brain and seat of power. I think it's the same with human society, with either large numbers or a war setting, individuality goes out the window and it's all about the victory, it's the win that matters. Maybe that's what Cameron was going for with his Vietnam analogy, I dunno. Watching Alien, I couldn't imagine what a load of these creatures would actually do together, in Aliens I guess familiarity (insect behaviour) was the only way to go (and like Descartes says, we can't imagine things that are totally alien to us, even an imagined creature will have traits inherited from real ones).

Aliens is probably my favourite Alien movie, with the first right next to it, but even I'm slightly annoyed by Cameron's influence - the creatures being referred to and portrayed as bugs in A:R and comics led to the dilution of the creature.

[SM]

I think the only time they've been directly referred to as "bugs" was Alien3.

[Valaquen]

I think the only time they've been directly referred to as "bugs" was Alien3.

'Bug-hunt' was used in Aliens, though not in relation to the Xenos. I've read several comics with the Aliens being refered to as bugs, and A:R design portrayed the Xenos as cockroaches rather than biomechanical. I'll have to rewatch Alien3 again soon, maybe tonight.

[SiL]

I think that was the point though, they're not autonomous creatures, they're a hive mind.

Yes. And I find that bullshit