Predalien: Dreads or No Dreads

[Xenomrph]

To put it simply:

You always refuse to actually engage with what someone writes, and then couch your response in subjectivity as if no one else knows that their statements about fiction inherently are, perhaps not arrogant but definitely condescending.

I think you're going to have to elaborate - I pretty actively engaged with what your claims of logic were, point by point.

From my perspective, couching your opinions in (spurious) logic (including emphasizing the word with italics) comes across as you trying to elevate your opinion as being above mere opinion.
If that wasn't your intent then that's okay, but it's absolutely how it came across.

It's almost as if there was some pretty hefty miscommunication coming from both sides.

And again if you feel it's being condescending, that isn't my intent and I apologize if that's how you perceived it.

[BlueMarsalis79]

For example, the Alien Resurrection Queen, produces regular adults in abilities certainly... (if certainly not appearance) but it is proven by the Newborn just existing that they are somehow compromised if they indeed inherit from their mother.

You said my thought exercise logic did not work with real world biology, but then ignored it, (particularly evident in some of the Neomorphs in David's Lab and the Resurrected Aliens in the Auriga's Lab) to include the loathsome AVP films to bolster your point of view.

(...or unlike real world biology they do not inherit traits from their mother meaning there must be some selection of "useful traits" going on...)

But this paired with "no lmao" -Hence refusing to engage.

[Xenomrph]

For example, the Alien Resurrection Queen, produces regular adults in abilities certainly... (if certainly not appearance) but it is proven by the Newborn just existing that they are somehow compromised if they indeed inherit from their mother.

If the Alien is meant to reset its genetics after each generation (supported by AvPR where the new Aliens didn't have dreadlocks or mandibles), and the Resurrection Queen produced a bunch of normal Aliens, then the system is working in spite of the cloning genetic mixing... until there's a sudden tipping point and the mutation kicks in and overrides the "default" of not passing down traits to the offspring, and the Newborn happens.

One could interpret that as being evidence that the Alien is not a perfect organism, if its genetics and "intended" lifecycle can be so easily disrupted.

You said my thought exercise logic did not work with real world biology, but then ignored it, (particularly evident in some of the Neomorphs in David's Lab and the Resurrected Aliens in the Auriga's Lab) to include the loathsome AVP films to bolster your point of view.

Genuine question, what did I ignore from Neomorphs (although I'd argue they're not particularly relevant since they're not Aliens) or the Auriga Aliens?
And even if you don't like the AvP movies, that shouldn't change my prerogative to cite them if I feel they support my case.
Reminder: I was citing AvPR to support your claim that the Queen filters out traits between generations. Just because Chet has dreadlocks doesn't mean its offspring will (and they don't).

(...or unlike real world biology they do not inherit traits from their mother meaning there must be some selection of "useful traits" going on...)

Not really - it just means the Alien is inheriting traits, it doesn't mean that it can control it. Certain traits, such as dreadlocks, or quadrapedalism, might just be traits the Alien genetically absorbs because that's how the host's genetics are. We know Predator dreadlocks aren't mere hair (and I'm almost positive other sources have said they're like a sensory organ, but feel free to fact-check me on that), and from 'The Predator' we know other non-Predator lifeforms from their planet have dreadlocks too. They could just be part of the genetic makeup that a PredAlien has no choice but to inherit, like a human skull or being a quadruped or something.

Saying "it's not passing down traits" doesn't automatically mean it's actively selecting "useful" traits. It's not an either-or, it doesn't logically follow.

The problem with the Alien actively inheriting "useful" traits is:

-the traits are useful only insofar as how they benefit the Alien's actual practical survival, and this is dependent on a ton of factors the Alien can neither predict nor control, such as the environment it's being born into. Claiming the Alien can actively read a host's genetic code and precognitively know what is "useful" and what isn't, despite being utterly unfamiliar with the genetics being presented or what they mean or what the end result will be as it pertains to Alien genetics.

Here's a thought experiment: you've got a human lost in the woods, with a bunch of huge grizzly and black bears. He stumbles across an Alien egg and is impregnated. The Alien comes out, looking very human and acting like the one from 'Alien'. The angry bears overwhelm and kill it, because bears are big and mean and a whole lot formidable than the human (from which the Alien drew its "useful" traits).

Another thought experiment: facehugger gets loose in a space station and comes across a big snake, which it facehugs. We get a snake-Alien, and in the process of being born the gravity on the station fails. The limbless snake-Alien is screwed, floating endlessly.

Defining "useful" traits is entirely subjective and we have no evidence that that's actually what's going on. see: the example I gave that Aliens should be entirely bipedal or quadrupedal, because one is clearly better than the other. The fact that both are happening means the Alien can't control it.

And all of this circles back to the fact that even if the Alien could selectively choose "useful" traits, the fact that all PredAliens have dreadlocks means it must be a useful trait (this is independent of whether you think dreadlocks are good or not, or whether you like PredAlien designs thus far - this is strictly the logical flow).

Remember, it's called DNA Reflex, which implies it's a reactionary measure outside of the Alien's control.

Not to mention that it's extremely far from a "perfect organism".

[BlueMarsalis79]

The AVP films and The Predator directly contradict the Alien films though.

It is either the Alien Queen in Resurrection passed down the traits or not. Not both. The Newborn suggests that it does. Showing the issue with Queens taking traits from their hosts.

This means a baseline does exist, or it does pass down traits, and Aliens have a way of filtering them.

The Drone and Runner are overall very similar, but whereas you can see that the Drone has hands much like we do, so does the Runner despite the animal origin, that suggests to me in line with their artifical nature some omnipresent selection of useful genetics (from the host species) and discarding of others.

Spoiler

If they have a useful function, encase the dreadlocks under a carapace, leaving them exposed to be harmed makes no sense for a creature with already such a large profile and head.

[close]

[Xenomrph]

The AVP films and The Predator directly contradict the Alien films though.

It is either the Alien Queen in Resurrection passed down the traits or not. Not both. The Newborn suggests that it does. Showing the issue with Queens taking traits from their hosts.

I don't care if you feel they contradict (and they contradict in timeline only, not Alien biology), there's a ton of contradictory Alien media and this is the anything-goes AvP subforum, so I'm going to cite them. If you want to turn this into a canon debate, the Predator movies aren't canon to 'Alien' so PredAliens can't possibly exist, so why are we even here? Like, this is the AvP subforum talking about an AvP concept, not being able to cite AvP sources is pretty wild.

The Queen in resurrection suggests that they don't pass down traits because it made a bunch of normal Aliens....... until suddenly things beyond the Queen's control changed. That's okay. The fact that it happened doesnt mean it's bad or wrong or counter to the "perfect organism" claim, it's just a thing that can happen to Aliens.

Also you, uh, ignored everything else I said. For someone calling me out on ignoring your (fair) claim about the Newborn, that's kind of bad form.

[BlueMarsalis79]

"Until things suddenly changed."

When you can define this change, you will have a point there, until then everything in Alien Resurrection remains pretty far from any normality. That also includes the Aliens themselves.

[Xenomrph]

"Until things suddenly changed."

When you can define this change, you will have a point there, until then everything in Alien Resurrection remains pretty far from any normality. That also includes the Aliens themselves.

The change is when Gediman said it changed - a secondary reproductive cycle suddenly appeared. The Queen was cosmetically and biologically just like the one from Aliens, until spontaneously she wasn't. What caused that sudden change is anyone's guess - they're Aliens, we're not supposed to understand them.

Also there's no evidence that the basic Aliens were in any way tainted by anything - quite the opposite, considering identical Aliens showed up in the first AvP movie.

I'm still a little hung up on you calling me out for responding to all of your points and then not showing me the same courtesy.

And again, saying "don't cite AvP sources on this AvP forum regarding an AvP topic" is a little wack.

[BlueMarsalis79]

It is a general forum, not an AVP one, an Alien Predator one, discussing a potential Alien creature first and foremost. I never said you did not respond to my every point but that you did not truly engage. That you still refuse to and now we come to the crux of why:

Not tainted. Very funny.

"I always wanted my Alien to be a very beautiful thing, not just something disgusting, not just a monster, but something aesthetic. Throughout the creature's evolution what they've done is change it from something aesthetic to something that looks like shit – I mean literally, it looks like a turd."
~ HR Giger, Alien Evolution, 2001.

I think I am done here.

We will never agree on this fundamental principle.

[Xenomrph]

It is a general forum, not an AVP one, an Alien Predator one, discussing a potential Alien creature first and foremost.

It's an AvP concept (quite possibly the most AvP concept - a literal union of Aliens and Predators), on an Aliens-Predator general discussion forum, I will continue to cite AvP sources lol

I never said you did not respond to my every point but that you did not truly engage.

And when pressed on elaborating on what that means, you didn't.
Going point by point through what you're saying, including circling back to address things you think I missed, is the definition of engaging with it.

If I were to say you aren't engaging with my posts, how do you think I feel?

Not tainted. Very funny.

There isn't any evidence that they are, especially in light of the first AvP movie.

"I always wanted my Alien to be a very beautiful thing, not just something disgusting, not just a monster, but something aesthetic. Throughout the creature's evolution what they've done is change it from something aesthetic to something that looks like shit – I mean literally, it looks like a turd."
~ HR Giger, Alien Evolution, 2001.

That is his opinion and he's welcome to it, yes.

[BlueMarsalis79]

The evidence being that they are, revealed by the context of Resurrection, if you are not willing to acknowledge that you are just not engaging in good faith in my eyes. 

[Xenomrph]

The evidence being that they are, revealed by the context of Resurrection, if you are not willing to acknowledge that you are just not engaging in good faith in my eyes. 

That's circular reasoning, you're saying "they are because they are", apparently no evidence required.

it's just as easy to read it the way I did - Gediman literally says in dialogue that things were normal until suddenly they weren't. It stands to reason that while things were going normally, the Queen was producing normal Aliens. It is your opinion that they're tainted, and saying things like "they are because I say they are" goes right back to the crux of the matter - you're trying to elevate your opinion above other people's, and it absolutely comes across as condescending and arrogant.

Especially in light of the ones in AvP being cosmetically identical except for the legs - which are *less* human in the (supposedly) human-tainted ones in Resurrection.

This is awfully far from liking or not liking PredAlien dreadlocks though.

[SiL]

It is your opinion that they're tainted, and saying things like "they are because I say they are" goes right back to the crux of the matter - you're trying to elevate your opinion above other people's, and it absolutely comes across as condescending and arrogant.

Author is dead and all but it was definitely the point of their design being so different in the movie. You're being very disingenuous saying it's just her opinion when it's not.

That said saying you can't source AvP when discussing the ultimate AvP concept is also incredibly disingenuous and this entire conversation is painful and dumb and you should both go touch grass.

[Xenomrph]

It is your opinion that they're tainted, and saying things like "they are because I say they are" goes right back to the crux of the matter - you're trying to elevate your opinion above other people's, and it absolutely comes across as condescending and arrogant.

Author is dead and all but it was definitely the point of their design being so different in the movie.

Genuine question, do you have a quote or source on that? My only knowledge of Jeunet's intent with the Alien designs is that he wanted them like cockroaches or something.

[SiL]

It is your opinion that they're tainted, and saying things like "they are because I say they are" goes right back to the crux of the matter - you're trying to elevate your opinion above other people's, and it absolutely comes across as condescending and arrogant.

Author is dead and all but it was definitely the point of their design being so different in the movie.

Genuine question, do you have a quote or source on that? My only knowledge of Jeunet's intent with the Alien designs is that he wanted them like cockroaches or something.

https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2016/04/29/alien-resurrection-hybrid-theory/

"The cloning process would naturally be contaminated," Gillis explained, "so the Aliens would have slightly messed-up DNA and be somewhat different. We thought this was the perfect opportunity for us to do something like give them longer arms and other subtle things. Our belief was that the design from the first movie was very successful, and you don't want to fix something that ain't broke. So all our effort went into improving it and making it look more organic, having more of a bio-mechanical exoskeleton feel, instead of going for the easier route of combining car parts into the clay before we cast it."

[Xenomrph]

It is your opinion that they're tainted, and saying things like "they are because I say they are" goes right back to the crux of the matter - you're trying to elevate your opinion above other people's, and it absolutely comes across as condescending and arrogant.

Author is dead and all but it was definitely the point of their design being so different in the movie.

Genuine question, do you have a quote or source on that? My only knowledge of Jeunet's intent with the Alien designs is that he wanted them like cockroaches or something.

https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2016/04/29/alien-resurrection-hybrid-theory/

"The cloning process would naturally be contaminated," Gillis explained, "so the Aliens would have slightly messed-up DNA and be somewhat different. We thought this was the perfect opportunity for us to do something like give them longer arms and other subtle things. Our belief was that the design from the first movie was very successful, and you don't want to fix something that ain't broke. So all our effort went into improving it and making it look more organic, having more of a bio-mechanical exoskeleton feel, instead of going for the easier route of combining car parts into the clay before we cast it."

Thanks! I love learning that stuff.

I don't think it really changes my interpretation in light of the other movies and things like that, but it's still interesting to learn.

For the record back in the late 90s I was very onboard team "f**ked up genetics" (my main source of evidence was that they were fleshier) but I came around on the idea "wait a minute, what if they're not", and the AvP movies helped solidify it.