Why do people hate Alien3?

[DoomRulz]

Sleep with Dallas? That's news to me. Is this in the special features?

[Valaquen]

Sleep with Dallas? That's news to me. Is this in the special features?

Dude, aren't you an Alien fan?! 

[SM]

Scripted and shot as a screen test.

Never shot with Skerritt though.

[Valaquen]

Scripted and shot as a screen test.

Never shot with Skerritt though.

And that's all I ever meant  Ridley thought the film didn't need it so he never shot it.

The screen test is interesting though. But yeah, ultimately, the film was better off without it (Skerrit says in the Anthology that he acted the cocoon scene as though he and Weaver were lovers.)

[SM]

They were all rooting each other off screen.

Alien Orgy - In Space No One Can Hear You CUM!

[chupacabras acheronsis]

i always wondered why there is still no XXX parody depicting these... unseen events.

they made an Avatar one and not this?

[Cvalda]

I never said it was. Doesn't make her death any less cliche.

Well just about every death in Alien fell into the stalker-killer-cliche, but it's a staple of the genre, so why bother? Are there any prominent examples of the Vasquez Always Dies trope prior to Aliens? I don't recall many female marines/tough girls in movies beforehand.

The trope seems to have been born around that era in general. TVTropes lists the earliest ones as A View to Kill (1985), Aliens (1986), and Nightmare on Elm Street 3 (1987).

I see this glass ceiling smashing as being quite serendipitous, since the script called for her to sleep around with Dallas and -possible, vaguely hinted in a deleted scene- other crew members as well. This material was cut for the sake of flow, as Ridley wanted the film to be lean and mean. Anyway, men like women, women like men, people like kids - I didn't see her being a mother figure as being detrimental to the character in any way.

ALIEN was the first genre film to have a female protagonist who is not defined in any way by her relationships with either a man or a child. She was her own woman, and she was capable of making decisions and leading without being spurred on by her need to protect her child or her love for a man. In that capacity, ALIEN is still groundbreaking, sadly (ALIEN 3 luckily reverted back to this format, albeit with a vengeance), and it's kind of unfortunate that Aliens imposed the usual Hollywood "feminine motivators" upon her character.

And it would have been awesome had Scott found a way to leave in the hinted at, matter-of-fact bisexuality. That wouldn't have shattered the glass ceiling, it would have blown it the f**k into space

[Valaquen]

The trope seems to have been born around that era in general. TVTropes lists the earliest ones as A View to Kill (1985), Aliens (1986), and Nightmare on Elm Street 3 (1987).

I see. Cheers 

ALIEN was the first genre film to have a female protagonist who is not defined in any way by her relationships with either a man or a child. She was her own woman, and she was capable of making decisions and leading without being spurred on by her need to protect her child or her love for a man.

Well, like I said, I find it to be serendipitous due to the Ripley-on-Dallas elements that were cut purely to save on time and necessity, and the fact that Ridley and co didn't actively set out to make Ripley a female power icon (Weaver's said this for years - the character was nigh-on a gag, she has said). David Giler also said they had their secretary change "he" to "she" in regards to Ripley and the script was bare to begin with in terms of characterisation. Of course, this doesn't lessen the character's impact at all. I just fail to see how Ripley is not her own woman because she relates to a child. The Ripley of Alien is almost sexless, bar the stripping down scene at the end (even that was quite casual and I don't think Ridley meant to tantalise male viewers). In Aliens I see Ripley as being spurred initially by the need for catharsis and then by the need to connect with a fellow survivor who has likewise survived hell - this person just so happens to be a young orphan, and the two complement one another very well due to their shared experiences. Ripley wanting to cradle a child is secondary to it all -- this is how I see it, anyway.

And it would have been awesome had Scott found a way to leave in the hinted at, matter-of-fact bisexuality. That wouldn't have shattered the glass ceiling, it would have blown it the f**k into space

Oh indeed! But the film works without any interpersonal relationships of any sort. It's very cold. Nobody can stand one another 

[SM]

Such was the level of realism.

I found the exact opposite in reading Aliens: Cauldron recently.  Everyone had lengthy expository conversations with each other and were all so bloody nice to each other, I couldn't wait for the Aliens to show up and slaughter them.

[StrangeShape]

ALIEN was the first genre film to have a female protagonist who is not defined in any way by her relationships with either a man or a child.

True or not, the reason reason for it is accidental  - Ripley was written as a man. Either way, a strong female character who isnt just a decoration of a man or an object of desire is what I admire - and thats what Ripley is in all 3 movies .

And its not like she needed anyone in any of the 3 to have a purpose. In Alien, shes doing it for herself - shes trying to survive. No different than any other person in the world. In Aliens, she goes back to stop her nightmares and face her fears and get revenge. Then she encounters a child to who she can relate to. But its a "THEN". In Alien 3 she basically doesnt care if she dies at all and seems suicidal after all the shattering her personality took. and THEN she sees a new purpose, new object of saving - the mankind

is more a straight Hollywood popcorn muncher

? I see no resemblance to Commando. Its pretty harsh to call that a movie which is 80% buildup and tension and which focuses on character's arc and internal turmoil (just like Alien 3, hence I always think theyre both a great companion). Its also by far the darkest "action" movie out there

nlike Alien, it is a huge source of video games, comic books, and children's action figure lines

There are two reasons for it, one is popularity and the second most apparent and important is that the times were different. You didnt have movie-based comic books in the 70s, and didnt have popular video games in the 70s. Yet you did have toys, which Alien spawned plenty of. Then theres the fact that 80s were famous for promoting R rated movies for children such as Robocop for example. Doesnt belittle the movie in any way


That "aliens is a dumb movie, all explosions and guns for 12 yo" is getting kinda old. For me Aliens and Alien 3 were always a close companion cause unlike the first one, they were much deeper and more sophisticated in terms of character development and focus. They were about Ripley, her emotional journey and evolution. About her story arcs. And that doesnt belittle the first movie one bit, its by admission of its creators a straight forward simple horror movie, and one doesnt need to be anything else to be a masterpiece. As far as construction, visuals and designs, the first two are brothers, but emotionally and story-wise , I believe Aliens and Alien 3 are grouped together and that makes them my fave two.

Anyway, to address stephen's comments on justice and happy endings. In none of he (3) movies theres a happy ending. The one in the first two is basically the same - literally - ending with the same shot. A survivor and multiple lives lost behind. alien(s) is destroyed, but the Company never gets exposed and in both the future seems still problematic for the survivor(s). In the first, I already knew people would have problem believing Ripley's story. That and I was thinking that the company will try to get their revenge on Ripley. In the second one, she and Hick were facing serious problems as well. The third one is no different, just more literal and shown on screen in front of our eyes, and in the third one, as in the previous two, theres a survivor and many deaths behind, and the alien gets destroyed, company leaves empty handed but not exposed or brought to justice. Burke's death means nothing. He was even working outisde of anybody's knowledge, including company. he was a greedy individual and

[Cvalda]

Well, like I said, I find it to be serendipitous due to the Ripley-on-Dallas elements that were cut purely to save on time and necessity, and the fact that Ridley and co didn't actively set out to make Ripley a female power icon (Weaver's said this for years - the character was nigh-on a gag, she has said).

I realize this, but the film itself is a case of accidental genius and broken ground in general--most of it's important themes just happened to fall into place without the creative personnel at first realizing. Ripley's character is a part of that. In fact, while I don't think Scott was pursuing a feminist agenda in ALIEN, he definitely snapped to attention after he saw the reaction, realized what he had done, and then took it upon himself to make sure he carried on in a similar vein in his subsequent work. While I have trouble calling Scott an autuer (talented as he is, he is still a commercials director, and when he makes films he is clearly selling the story instead of connecting with it and telling it his own way), there can be no doubt he is the only male blockbuster director who recognizes what his female audience members want--which is not to be marginalized, talked down to, or shafted into boring "girlfriend" or "slut" roles. Furthermore, he is even an equal opportunity objectifier, showing off the male physique for the ladies (and some of the men) just as often, if not more so, than showing scantily clad women. It may just be another selling technique, but it's at least a step in the right direction, and while I don't like most of Scott's work and kind of retch at his almost creepy levels of political-removal, I still think he's a valuable voice in cinema for simply treating his female characters with respect. Not even Cameron can claim to do so to the levels Scott has consistently maintained.

[Valaquen]

Good post Cvalda.
Re; equal opportunity objectifier, Ridley Scott once said: 'My film has strong women simply because I like strong women. It's a personal choice. I'm no male chauvinist, nor do I understand female chauvinism - I just believe in the equality of men and women. It's as simple as that.'

[Cvalda]

I see no resemblance to Commando. Its pretty harsh to call that a movie which is 80% buildup and tension and which focuses on character's arc and internal turmoil (just like Alien 3, hence I always think theyre both a great companion). Its also by far the darkest "action" movie out there

I didn't compare it to Commando, but since you bring it up... Just kidding. Though they do both share common action tropes typical of mid-80's action films. Not their fault, per se, it was the times.

Yet you did have toys, which Alien spawned plenty of.

Only one, and that was swiftly recalled due to the outcry.

That "aliens is a dumb movie, all explosions and guns for 12 yo" is getting kinda old.

I never said that either.

Good post Cvalda.
Re; equal opportunity objectifier, Ridley Scott once said: 'My film has strong women simply because I like strong women. It's a personal choice. I'm no male chauvinist, nor do I understand female chauvinism - I just believe in the equality of men and women. It's as simple as that.'

I've always loved that quote. Now if only his other politics were as straightforward and progressive. Sigh.

[stephen]

Anyway, to address stephen's comments on justice and happy endings. In none of he (3) movies theres a happy ending. The one in the first two is basically the same - literally - ending with the same shot. A survivor and multiple lives lost behind. alien(s) is destroyed, but the Company never gets exposed and in both the future seems still problematic for the survivor(s).

The happy ending in Aliens is that Ripley can now "dream".

[Cvalda]

The happy ending in Aliens is that Ripley can now "dream".

Gag.