Do you care about canon?

Started by Corporal Hicks, Apr 02, 2024, 09:03:57 AM

Do you care about canon?

Yes
26 (63.4%)
No
15 (36.6%)

Total Members Voted: 38

Author
Do you care about canon? (Read 3,560 times)

Corporal Hicks

Corporal Hicks

Do you care about whether or not a particular Alien/vs/Predator story is considered canon? And why? Why do you, as a fan, care about canon?

SiL

SiL

#1
Where the poll at.

Stitch

Stitch

#2
Yes. I want to know what's happening in the fictional universe in clearly invested enough in to be a member of a fan site.

No. It's not real and as long as the story is fun, then that's good, and future filmmakers are likely to ignore anything they want anyway.

Corporal Hicks

Corporal Hicks

#3
Quote from: SiL on Apr 02, 2024, 09:10:36 AMWhere the poll at.

Suppose I'm more interested in people's reasonings, but I'll add a poll!

SiL

SiL

#4
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 02, 2024, 09:03:57 AMDo you care about whether or not a particular Alien/vs/Predator story is considered canon? And why? Why do you, as a fan, care about canon?
I like canon as a kind of through line of narrative and not going off the rails. Almost like a sort of QC for the main story.

But I also like stories that go off the rails and explore the weirder possibilities. I just like knowing they're not going to become part of the norm in ongoing stories.

Like, I like Herk Mondo, but I would not want him to be part of the canon.

oduodu

oduodu

#5
if it prevents me  from arguing about something because it isn t on screen(theatrical releases) then it annoys me. other than that i really don t care.

the reason is that when alien (for instance) was made , the creators had certain ideas and intentions in mind. when aliens came out some of those intentions/ideas changed or was made redundant. so things change and the intellectual property owner  can also change that.

as long as i know what the original intentions were and what now the theatrical release canon is  (and additions subtraction by the ipo) then i don t care.

BECAUSE

i can have a discussion about any of those knowing what they are.

Kradan

Kradan

#6
@Xenomrph


Quote from: SiL on Apr 02, 2024, 09:59:05 AMLike, I like Herk Mondo, but I would not want him to be part of the canon

I wouldn't mind a Herk Mondo flick. That would be something different to say the least


On the matter of canon: I don't care really as long as I can have access to the entries I enjoy re-visiting. I love Alien 3, I kinda like Resurrection, Prometheus is just there for me and I dig Covenant. But I wouldn't be terribly upset if the new stories overwrite any of these as long as it's for filmakers' creativity sake. I like first AvP movie and it's already excluded from canon and I'm OK with it (I'm glad Requiem is tho)

Nightmare Asylum

Nightmare Asylum

#7
I voted "No," but as with everything else, there are various degrees to which this is true. I'm definitely all in on separate Alien and Predator canons, but I'm also flexible within those separate timelines as well.

I've made it very clear on the boards just how much I love Alien: Covenant, but that being said, I don't really ever find myself thinking about that movie specifically when I watch Alien. I do like seeing (and talking about) them existing on the same timeline, but in the moment when I'm actually watching them, that's not what really matters to me. And while I wasn't really feeling Blomkamp's idea just because I don't think that what we were seeing from it looked very good, I wasn't overly precious about the ramifications it would have had on the canon/lore. I love Alien 3 and I don't want to see it bumped from a (the?) continuity, but the movie will always exist; it'll always be there. If there's going to be a split timeline that goes in a different direction after Aliens, I'll still always have Alien 3 and I'd admittedly be curious to see what someone else does with an alternative idea.

Predator, I'm even looser with, if only because the movies themselves are all, functionally, standalone films. There's little bits of connective tissue, yeah, but there's no reason why you shouldn't just be able to pick any Predator movie at random out of a pile, put it on, and (quality of the overall movie permitting, of course) have a good time with it as its own thing.

As for AVP, I've never been one that's really cared for it conceptually (probably because my main experience with the crossover is from the movies, which I find to A.) be bad in their own right, and B.) I don't like their silly attempts to merge a full-fledged continuity between the Alien and Predator movies that existed at the time with their Weyland and Yutani shenanigans). That being said, over the last year or so (since Prey's release, pretty much) I've come to accept that we will eventually see another stab at an AVP film, probably sooner rather than later, and I've started to really soften on the idea, provided it does something more interesting with the material that it has to play with than the two movies we've gotten. Though I'd still prefer it to be totally outside of the Alien movies' canon, if at all possible.

And then there's the EU. There's some pieces I really love (Alien: Isolation, The Cold Forge, Into Charybdis, Phalanx, Inhuman Condition, Sacrifice, Salvation, Dead Orbit, etc.), but with the POSSIBLE exception of Isolation, I tend to see the EU as something separate from the universe of the films, if only because the films have proven time and time again that they take no issue with walking all over the games/books/comics, and because if they are fully separate, then that would allow the EU material to have the freedom to really experiment and try new things that would never work on screen and just have fun with it. A lot of the older Dark Horse comics feel like that. Hell, Alien: Resurrection feels like that, despite being a movie we actually got on screen.

I don't think Alien and/or Predator should go the way of, say, the Halloween franchise with numerous hard restarts every few years that try to shift the public's perception of the franchise and make you forget what's come before, but I don't mind the idea of the canon being something more akin to the Godzilla or James Bond franchises where continuity can take a back seat in favor of the individual entry's intent (either within the tapestry of a larger universe or as a total standalone, varying entry to entry) taking priority.

Kimarhi

Kimarhi

#8
Not as much as I used to.


Mainly I want the canon to be whatever ends up with Prometheus stricken from the records. 

I've always considered the films their own thing and the EU its own thing, and it is pointless to even try to reconcile the EU at this point, so I'm also kind of in the f**k it stage that takes every story and gauges its individual merit as I consume it. 

I don't necessarily agree that this is the best philosophy a franchise should have, but every time some EU story was supposed to tie into the films, I remember it immediately qetting schwacked by the movies and the movies themselves are rearranging and making new lore all the time.

The Cruentus

The Cruentus

#9
I can enjoy non-canon entries quite fine. Non-canon does not mean something is not good or not fun, some are probably better than some of the canon stories. That being said, canon is usually what we consider to "have happened"  as it has become more or less synonymous withn continuity, thus canon entries have a more permanent affect on history and "timeline".

So I do care about canon because I believe films/media need to be careful what they then add to the lore of the franchise.

When something is canon, it can make it harder to accept when something that was added is bad than if it was non-canon. With the former, we have to accept it as part of the franchise until it can be officially retconned. With the latter, its just a what if or alternate story that has no bearing on the main continuity.
My own opinion here of course.

Kradan

Kradan

#10
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Apr 02, 2024, 12:09:20 PMI voted "No," but as with everything else, there are various degrees to which this is true. I'm definitely all in on separate Alien and Predator canons, but I'm also flexible within those separate timelines as well.

I've made it very clear on the boards just how much I love Alien: Covenant, but that being said, I don't really ever find myself thinking about that movie specifically when I watch Alien. I do like seeing (and talking about) them existing on the same timeline, but in the moment when I'm actually watching them, that's not what really matters to me. And while I wasn't really feeling Blomkamp's idea just because I don't think that what we were seeing from it looked very good, I wasn't overly precious about the ramifications it would have had on the canon/lore. I love Alien 3 and I don't want to see it bumped from a (the?) continuity, but the movie will always exist; it'll always be there. If there's going to be a split timeline that goes in a different direction after Aliens, I'll still always have Alien 3 and I'd admittedly be curious to see what someone else does with an alternative idea.

Predator, I'm even looser with, if only because the movies themselves are all, functionally, standalone films. There's little bits of connective tissue, yeah, but there's no reason why you shouldn't just be able to pick any Predator movie at random out of a pile, put it on, and (quality of the overall movie permitting, of course) have a good time with it as its own thing.

As for AVP, I've never been one that's really cared for it conceptually (probably because my main experience with the crossover is from the movies, which I find to A.) be bad in their own right, and B.) I don't like their silly attempts to merge a full-fledged continuity between the Alien and Predator movies that existed at the time with their Weyland and Yutani shenanigans). That being said, over the last year or so (since Prey's release, pretty much) I've come to accept that we will eventually see another stab at an AVP film, probably sooner rather than later, and I've started to really soften on the idea, provided it does something more interesting with the material that it has to play with than the two movies we've gotten. Though I'd still prefer it to be totally outside of the Alien movies' canon, if at all possible.

And then there's the EU. There's some pieces I really love (Alien: Isolation, The Cold Forge, Into Charybdis, Phalanx, Inhuman Condition, Sacrifice, Salvation, Dead Orbit, etc.), but with the POSSIBLE exception of Isolation, I tend to see the EU as something separate from the universe of the films, if only because the films have proven time and time again that they take no issue with walking all over the games/books/comics, and because if they are fully separate, then that would allow the EU material to have the freedom to really experiment and try new things that would never work on screen and just have fun with it. A lot of the older Dark Horse comics feel like that. Hell, Alien: Resurrection feels like that, despite being a movie we actually got on screen.

I don't think Alien and/or Predator should go the way of, say, the Halloween franchise with numerous hard restarts every few years that try to shift the public's perception of the franchise and make you forget what's come before, but I don't mind the idea of the canon being something more akin to the Godzilla or James Bond franchises where continuity can take a back seat in favor of the individual entry's intent (either within the tapestry of a larger universe or as a total standalone, varying entry to entry) taking priority.

Well said

Also

Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Apr 02, 2024, 12:09:20 PMInhuman Condition, Sacrifice


[cancerblack]

[cancerblack]

#11
Voted No, but the answer is more complicated than that. In truth, I only see Alien, Aliens and Alien 3 as "immutable" canon (or very close to it). Everything else is as canon as I need it to be for whatever story or thought I'm currently entertaining, but can be dropped just as fast. Whether it happens to be "official" or not is quite immaterial to me, whether I'm including or excluding a given piece in a given moment.


Samhain13

Samhain13

#12
I make my canon.

Canon for the ones in charge is just usually whatever they are trying to push at the moment to sell and it changes when its convenient for them. Its mainly marketing, they don't really put much effort in trying to make the entries fit in and make sense within the same continuity. Plus they make such dumb mistakes over the years so. Blah.

Acid_Reign161

Acid_Reign161

#13
Yes, I *strongly* believe canon matters. Canonicity is what makes sense of the fictional universe we are enjoying, and (should) bring coherence. When something doesn't fit, it breaks the immersion of the worlds I'm living through the eyes of the characters. The universe shatters.

Does that mean I can't enjoy non-canon stories? Not at all! On the contrary, some of the EU stories are great fun! The latest titan books seem to follow their own canon which includes recent games, and they tie in to each other nicely. But it's not *prime* canon, and it's important to differentiate between the two. Why? Because whilst these stories are fun, oversaturation of content, with too many chefs fingers in the pie can also break worlds.

I'm not adverse to multiple timelines with their own canonical events to each other; Toho's Gojira /Godzilla franchise has multiple timelines, each following on from the first movie only as a starting point (Showa era, Heisei era, Millenium era, etc). Halloween has 3 timelines, Texas Chainsaw has multiple.. sometimes this can add to the problem... (Terminator is a prime example of constant reboots and timeline changes making everything worse) other times, it can nicely reboot a series that has gone off the rails and get it back on track (I'd argue some of the recent Texas Chainsaw movies feel more in line with the original, than the cheesier sequels in the 80s and 90s for example).

To me, prime canon in the Alien Universe is, and always will be 'Alien' 'Aliens' and 'Alien 3' (regardless of which cut) everything else is nice bonus. I love the prequels, I watch them regularly; but I love them in the same way I may love an Alien-universe game, or EU novels. That doesn't make them less of a good movie... but I do feel their canonicity is definitely up for debate, regardless what Fox, Disney or Ridley Scott says (remember, Fox once said Colonial Marines was canon.. not so much these days). The fact the new Alien TV show is omitting the prequels and only taking the original trilogy into consideration actually peaks my interest! Does that mean if the new show is amazing, that the prequels don't exist anymore? Not at all! They completely exist, in their *own* canon, and always will (and can always be enjoyed).

Without canon, chaos reigns; you'd have people watching Alien 1979, with a mindset that Predators exist in this universe, that Space Jockeys and Engineers co-exist, that Predators hunted Aliens on Earth centuries before an android creates them, that the runner on Fury 161 burst from both a dog and on ox; meaning there were two runners, etc... canon is the law, it is the truth that guides the viewer. It should always matter. That being said, we as an audience don't always have to agree with what is *stated* to be canon.


Acid_Reign161

Acid_Reign161

#14
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Apr 02, 2024, 04:27:12 PMVoted No, but the answer is more complicated than that. In truth, I only see Alien, Aliens and Alien 3 as "immutable" canon (or very close to it). Everything else is as canon as I need it to be for whatever story or thought I'm currently entertaining, but can be dropped just as fast. Whether it happens to be "official" or not is quite immaterial to me, whether I'm including or excluding a given piece in a given moment.



100% agree on your immutable canon choice; I'm the same on that one.

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