Dinosaurs and other prehistoric creatures

Started by DoomRulz, Jul 10, 2008, 12:17:08 AM

Author
Dinosaurs and other prehistoric creatures (Read 286,225 times)

Vertigo

Stemming from this post, it looks like it might be a good idea to start a thread dedicated to general discussion of dinosaurs and the various other forms of life who wouldn't fit on Noah's ark a few thousand years ago, or were planted in the ground by Santa to fuel atheism and SUVs.
Pretty much every thread with a prehistory-y topic turns into one of these anyway, so seems like the right move to centralise it a bit.

If anyone's got any questions on this subject, go for it. Doesn't matter how Alan Grantian or six-foot-turkey-kiddian it is.

So, to kick things off in as Discovery Channelly a way as I can think of right now, who do you think would win in a fight between Utahraptor and an equivalently sized young tyrannosaurid? Not that they ever met in real life.




OmegaZilla

OmegaZilla

#766
This thread is diamonds.

I'd put the money on the Utah if only because it's an adult. Experienced hunter and stuff.

Greedo

Greedo

#767
Now I am liking this thread!


Look up Bernissartia....

Vertigo

Quote from: Omegazilla on Oct 14, 2013, 11:51:09 AM
This thread is diamonds.

I'd put the money on the Utah if only because it's an adult. Experienced hunter and stuff.

Well, keep in mind that a tyrannosaurid would be closing on ten years old by the time they reached Utahraptor's size, and they'd likely have been capable hunters by that point; they certainly had the tools for it.

OmegaZilla

OmegaZilla

#769
Well yes. Unfortunately we have no idea of how these things approached that kind of situation, nor what their 'style' would be.

Xenodog

Quote from: Vertigo on Oct 14, 2013, 05:56:42 PM
Quote from: Omegazilla on Oct 14, 2013, 11:51:09 AM
This thread is diamonds.

I'd put the money on the Utah if only because it's an adult. Experienced hunter and stuff.

Well, keep in mind that a tyrannosaurid would be closing on ten years old by the time they reached Utahraptor's size, and they'd likely have been capable hunters by that point; they certainly had the tools for it.

I don't think we know enough - or will ever - of dinosaur behaviour to answer that.
But being so small in an enviroment with other bigger rexes doesn't seem like a great plan. What would they hunt also? Young herbivores would likely have adults defending them and scavenging is a dangerous hobby unless you have the jaws and balls to get into a fight over a carcass - something a juvenile probably wouldn't to a larger of it's kind. (T.Rex doesn't seem to have many competitors in it's range.)

I would also suggest a Utahraptor is more agile and dexterous than a young T.Rex.
A equivalent-weight Utahraptor would be longer and so appear bigger than a tyrannosaur and so in turn may have intimidation on it's side too though.

Just some of my two cents though!

Vertigo

Vertigo

#771
Quote from: Xenodog on Oct 14, 2013, 08:32:30 PM
I don't think we know enough - or will ever - of dinosaur behaviour to answer that.
But being so small in an enviroment with other bigger rexes doesn't seem like a great plan. What would they hunt also? Young herbivores would likely have adults defending them and scavenging is a dangerous hobby unless you have the jaws and balls to get into a fight over a carcass - something a juvenile probably wouldn't to a larger of it's kind. (T.Rex doesn't seem to have many competitors in it's range.)

I would also suggest a Utahraptor is more agile and dexterous than a young T.Rex.
A equivalent-weight Utahraptor would be longer and so appear bigger than a tyrannosaur and so in turn may have intimidation on it's side too though.

Just some of my two cents though!

Regarding what a young tyrannosaurid could hunt, there were definitely opportunities.
For starters, childrearing habits of dinosaurs are difficult to ascertain; even in the nestbuilding species it's unclear how long the parents paid close attention to their young. Sauropod youngsters were very likely left to their own devices immediately after hatching, and in any case it'd be very difficult for a whale-sized animal to defend tiny herdmates from fast, bear-sized juvenile tyrannosaurs. Finally, it's worth noting that modern predators frequently kill the offspring of animals that greatly outmatch them - cheetahs take baby wildebeest, lions take baby elephants.
There were also adult prey items that fit the bill. Ornithomimosaurs like Gallimimus were particular candidates, which might seem bizarre when you look at a lumpy Tyrannosaurus adult, but the youngsters were very different, which I'll get back to...

What's very notable with Tyrannosaurus rex in particular is that there were barely any other predators throughout its range, as you say. The largest I can think of was Dromaeosaurus, which was the weight of a smallish dog (and we only have tooth evidence of even that being around in the same time and place). This leaves a huge gap in the ecosystem, no adult predators between 15 and 5000 kilos... and one that's conveniently plugged if you assume the young rexes were hunting.

Anyway. Tyrannosaurus had one of the most peculiar life histories of any dinosaur we know. Particularly if feathers were involved, you might not even recognise a young rex and an adult as the same species (this even applies to the bones, 'Nanotyrannus' is very likely a young rex). While the adult was built for sheer overwhelming power, ridiculously muscled and equipped even for an apex theropod, the juveniles were long-legged and lithe. Particularly, they were some of the fastest sprinters among predatory dinosaurs - we can tell this from the leg configuration, as the tibia is significantly longer than the femur, and the feet extend this trait even further. They were also lightly built, with a compact centre of gravity.
To put this in perspective, we don't see these features exaggerated to such a degree even in most dromaeosaurids, particularly the big ones like Utahraptor. To get back to my earlier point, young rexes may have been very well matched with ornithomimosaurs.

I do agree with you that Utahraptor would've been more imposing though, for the reasons you state. Wouldn't surprise me if they had some form of feather display to deter rivals either. And their short 'wings' may have provided a boost to their balance, aiding agility.

Xenodog

Like I said discussing such things is always hard due to so little behavioural evidence actually existing.

You're totally right with modern predators and many often take larger prey than themselves. However in extreme cases like lion and elephant it is often animals or groups of animals that have become specialised over time, like certain prides in Botswana and Zimbabwe. Youngsters would likely never succede with such an act, but may indeed try.
With rex's sympatric herbivorous dinosaurs it's likely hadrosaurs exhibited parental care, but where the age / size cutoff point was I don't think we'll ever be able to tell. With ceratopsians they may or may not have done, but with such an ostensibly dangerous prey item would a youngster want to go anywhere near that?
You're right on both Ornithomimus like dinosaurs and the speed of young rex and the really interesting age-dimorphism, I think I read somewhere that out of all large theropods T.Rex was one of the best built for speed, but don't quote me on that!
I also agree re: Nanotyrannus just being a young Rex individual.

However, I think a good argument for small, at least bear sized, rexes sticking with parents until yay high is older rexes. Cannabalism is prevalent in many reptiles and carnivores today, and unlike baby Komodo Dragons who can escape into trees as one example, I doubt subadult rexes had such a way of escape, or would be ecologically seperated enough from older rexes to escape fatal attention.
Of course, speed may have been key to them escaping older rexes, but then we'd need to consider what size / weight they bulked up and resembled adults. Maybe this happened before leaving their parents?

Vertigo

This is going to be a short one, as I'm using my terrible phone and am about to go offline for a week.. then again, it's probably a *good* thing I won't be able to waffle on interminably for once....

Great post, just a couple of points I wanted to bring up before I head off.
Adult Tyrannosaurus rex was built for power and its athletic abilities are hotly debated (personally I think their enormous muscles suited them for very short but massively powerful charges). You may heard about a potentially high turn of speed in smaller tyrannosaurid genera such as Albertasaurus, which I think I'd agree with. Though I don't have a skeletal diagram to hand right now...

Albertasaurus is a great example for the subject of how tyrannosaurids raised their young, too. Convenient! Your suggestion that young rexes hung around their parents for extended periods is one I very much agree with, and is borne out in the fossil record (arguably, because as we know, behaviour doesn't generally fossilise...), for this species at least. We have a bonebed consisting of a number of 'berties of various ages. My opinion is that this represents a family group. No other species were preserved, so it's unlikely to be random accumulation.
My opinion is that they may have been like great whites, which are communally social but hunt alone, with the group often converging on a kill site to form a pecking order. Tyrannosaurids took a very long time to reach reproductive age, so it makes sense for the parents to protect their investment over a long period (I'd imagine, like lions, interloping males would kill rivals' offspring to assure genetic supremacy - we do know the adults occasionally fought each other ferociously.

Xenodog

Hah.  :laugh:

And yeah, there have been quite a few headlines on popular science articles with vary extimates for T.Rex's speed. And yeah, thinking about it was probably tyrannosaurids and not specifically T.Rex alone that was built for speed comparatively.

I agree on the bone beds too, and that Albertosaurus and likely other tyrannosaurids exhibited parental behaviour.  I also don't think that with Albertosaurus, unlike Deinonychus bonebeds, there was np evidence of cannabalism and so it was likely a family and not just a carcass congregation like Komodo Dragons or crocodiles.
The white sharks analogy seems a good one.

Also commited  a bit of wikipedia theft and found this :

Based on Erickson et al 2004.
Seems T.Rex in particular had a very fast growth rate, possibly for the greater safety size brough with it from it's own kind and for a wider range or prey?

DoomRulz

We already have a dinosaur topic I started a while back so I'm going to merge the two threads.

Matriarch

My favorite is either the spineasours thing and the brontosaures

Sabby


Xenodog

No one else?...

In that case, favourite dinosaur & prehistoric mammal and why, anyone?

King Rathalos

For dinosaur, T-Rex cause it's the motherf**king T-Rex, in all seriousness though it's big, looks cool, and has a lot of sharp teeth. :laugh:

As for prehistoric mammal, it's a tie between a Cave Bear and Basilosaurus. Both are bigger and more badass versions of animals that still exist, and Cave Bears are basically giant bears, that's f**king awesome no matter how you put it.

AvPGalaxy: About | Contact | Cookie Policy | Manage Cookie Settings | Privacy Policy | Legal Info
Facebook Twitter Instagram YouTube Patreon RSS Feed
Contact: General Queries | Submit News