Theology

[Born Of Cold Light]

I loved that. It serves as a powerful reminder of just how insignificant we are in this vast universe of ours. Also, Hail Satan! Believe it or not, Satanism spouts just that message: you are but one microbe in the universe. Don't worry about the afterlife and just enjoy your life in the here and now.

From a Christian perspective, that's not him being nice, that's him feeding you a rope to hang yourself from.  Kind of like a cosmic loan shark.

[DoomRulz]

How?

[Xeno Killer 2179]

How?

From a christian perspective (I'm not Christian), heaven/afterlife is real, and so for someone to encourage others to just ignore it IS to let them hang themselves since actions/faith in life determine the state of being after death.

[DoomRulz]

Fair enough. But since we don't actually know if either is real, stop worrying about it and enjoy your time on Earth. If you don't harm anyone and there is a heaven after all, then you'll be just fine.

[Xeno Killer 2179]

...stop worrying about it and enjoy your time on Earth.

But with 7 billion people, a substantial amount won't see it this way. Some beliefs require active devotion, and some people can ONLY enjoy their lives living like this, and so when others come struttin' along with Satan's advice, it can be off putting. No different than an atheist feeling out of place in a church where everyone else has got the holy spirit flowing in them. My point is simply not everyone worries about it or carries the attitude that it's a chore/obligation, and the afterlife can be the focus of a life worth living.

If you don't harm anyone and there is a heaven after all, then you'll be just fine.

Very little, if anything, works how we think it should work or expect it to work.

But since we don't actually know if either is real...

What constitutes proof varies by person and ideology. Some people do know....

And....some people neither want nor need proof. I would even add that "definite proof" of an afterlife or heaven/hell would be devastating. The very antithesis of faith.

[Born Of Cold Light]

Fair enough. But since we don't actually know if either is real, stop worrying about it and enjoy your time on Earth. If you don't harm anyone and there is a heaven after all, then you'll be just fine.

But what do you mean by 'harm anyone?'  I would argue that, even in the slightest of ways, we harm people everyday.

[Xeno Killer 2179]

I would argue that, even in the slightest of ways, we harm people everyday.

Certainly, but unless we can see all the details, see all that results now and in the distant future, can we really say we are doing harm?

If we are doing slight harm, can't it also be possible that we are doing slight good, or even that some of the harm we do becomes good, in the long run? I would think this delicate balance must be the case or we'd not be here.

[Born Of Cold Light]

I would argue that, even in the slightest of ways, we harm people everyday.

Certainly, but unless we can see all the details, see all that results now and in the distant future, can we really say we are doing harm?

If we are doing slight harm, can't it also be possible that we are doing slight good, or even that some of the harm we do becomes good, in the long run? I would think this delicate balance must be the case or we'd not be here.

Maybe not massive harm, but every little bit does have an impact.  As far as doing good, that is true as well, although all of this is very much dependent on individuals' personalities.  The main point is that it's a something of a slippery slope when anyone says that they are 'good' in a generic fashion, though most people have done it at least once in their lives.  It can lead to a degree of sloth that allows people to gloss over their inherent failings, whatever they may be.

[DoomRulz]

...stop worrying about it and enjoy your time on Earth.

But with 7 billion people, a substantial amount won't see it this way. Some beliefs require active devotion, and some people can ONLY enjoy their lives living like this, and so when others come struttin' along with Satan's advice, it can be off putting. No different than an atheist feeling out of place in a church where everyone else has got the holy spirit flowing in them. My point is simply not everyone worries about it or carries the attitude that it's a chore/obligation, and the afterlife can be the focus of a life worth living.

If they feel like the only way they can live is by devoting their lives to an imaginary sky man who watches over their every move, then they haven't been reading much. Also, it's not "Satan's advice". LaVeyan Satanism at its core is glorified atheism. The name only exists as a means of provocation.

If you don't harm anyone and there is a heaven after all, then you'll be just fine.

Very little, if anything, works how we think it should work or expect it to work.

What do you mean?

But since we don't actually know if either is real...

What constitutes proof varies by person and ideology. Some people do know....

Oh I have to hear this. Who knows with 100% certainty that Heaven and Hell exist, as described in religious scripture?

And....some people neither want nor need proof. I would even add that "definite proof" of an afterlife or heaven/hell would be devastating. The very antithesis of faith.

Faith is meaningless to begin with. It was only created as a means to control people anyway. Once you let go of false ideas and fairy tale dreaming, your life becomes that much less stressful.

[Xeno Killer 2179]

@Doom

I don't expect you to have the same basis of understanding as I do, so I'll explain my posts in more detail.

If they feel like the only way they can live is by devoting their lives to an imaginary sky man who watches over their every move, then they haven't been reading much. Also, it's not "Satan's advice". LaVeyan Satanism at its core is glorified atheism. The name only exists as a means of provocation.

When I comment in this thread, I'm rarely referring to the stereotypical western-world sky wizard. Devotion is just a generic way of saying
a person spends most of their focus away from worldly affairs (naturally, this often takes the form of a holy/spiritual path). Deny a person accustomed to this their way of life and they may be miserable (or not at all, depending on how developed they are).

As for satan, I understand him as more of a force, or an office, meaning his influence only has to be called out for what it is.

Very little, if anything, works how we think it should work or expect it to work.

What do you mean?

I mean when it comes to heaven and hell, I don't believe any widely adopted religions offer useful understanding of either. The reward for being good, punishment for being bad, I think is convenient and incomplete. Bad things obviously happen to good people, and vice versa, and regardless of how many people think good people will get goods things, and bad people, bad things, in an absolute sense, it is not an accurate representation of reality, and causes people to ignore what they can do for themselves because they've been lead to believe some invisible thing is taking score and will compensate them.

But let us say that heaven or hell must be journeyed to and the state of our being determines our ability to access them, rather than some cosmic judge dropping us off somewhere at his subjective whim. To some extent, we control how we are, and if we can change ourselves, we can possibly heal ourselves, pull the thorns out of our psychology, out of our souls. I think a self aware person that can do this has a better chance.

Heaven and hell, I'm saying there is no judgement, rather it's a phenomena. The old saying, "as above, so below", if you leave things to chance in life, you get a random result, why wouldn't it be the same in death? Like panning for gold, some of the material sinks, the gold, the black sand, some of it floats up to the surface, and life is an opportunity to offload our junk, but we can get heavier or stay the same, too.

What constitutes proof varies by person and ideology. Some people do know....

Oh I have to hear this. Who knows with 100% certainty that Heaven and Hell exist, as described in religious scripture?

What I said is more akin to the difference between believing someone, and believing that they believe what they're saying.

There are people who have seen orbs and other unexplainable stuff, mentally ill people absolutely convinced of what they think is happening, what they think they know, and so on. I know that these people "know"....

I just accept human experience as a sole contributor to life, rather than objective reality. You can brain wash children with lies, and, neurologically, complete gibberish may have no distinction from validated facts in the minds of others.

Also, I made no mention of religious scripture...

And....some people neither want nor need proof. I would even add that "definite proof" of an afterlife or heaven/hell would be devastating. The very antithesis of faith.

Faith is meaningless to begin with. It was only created as a means to control people anyway. Once you let go of false ideas and fairy tale dreaming, your life becomes that much less stressful.

But faith of what? It doesn't have to be of god or heaven, and letting go of many things is certainly a large part of most spiritual paths.

[whiterabbit]

Good and evil are equals; you can not have one without the other. That is one thing the bible is great at conveying but people flat out ignore that important message. To think about how much harm is done because of ones need to be good. Everything every single person does has a component of good and evil.

Still there is a difference between philosophy and faith and for some reason people can't figure it out.

[DoomRulz]

If they feel like the only way they can live is by devoting their lives to an imaginary sky man who watches over their every move, then they haven't been reading much. Also, it's not "Satan's advice". LaVeyan Satanism at its core is glorified atheism. The name only exists as a means of provocation.

When I comment in this thread, I'm rarely referring to the stereotypical western-world sky wizard. Devotion is just a generic way of saying a person spends most of their focus away from worldly affairs (naturally, this often takes the form of a holy/spiritual path). Deny a person accustomed to this their way of life and they may be miserable (or not at all, depending on how developed they are).

To deny a person would mean someone is forcing them away from it. I don't want to force anyone away from anything. What I'm saying is that if a person really feels as though this is all there is to it, then they haven't done much exploring. There's so much more beyond what a book written 5 000 years ago will tell you. It's willful ignorance and I think that's shameful.

As for satan, I understand him as more of a force, or an office, meaning his influence only has to be called out for what it is.

The only "influence" here is enjoying your life and doing what makes you happy as long as you don't harm anyone in the process. Harm in this instance means actually hurting someone with lasting repercussions; not a kid's parents crying because he masturbated at the age of 14 and now they think God is going to punish them.

I mean when it comes to heaven and hell, I don't believe any widely adopted religions offer useful understanding of either. The reward for being good, punishment for being bad, I think is convenient and incomplete. Bad things obviously happen to good people, and vice versa, and regardless of how many people think good people will get goods things, and bad people, bad things, in an absolute sense, it is not an accurate representation of reality, and causes people to ignore what they can do for themselves because they've been lead to believe some invisible thing is taking score and will compensate them.

So you admit then that these false ideas are resulting in people who lead selfish and deterministic lives.

But let us say that heaven or hell must be journeyed to and the state of our being determines our ability to access them, rather than some cosmic judge dropping us off somewhere at his subjective whim. To some extent, we control how we are, and if we can change ourselves, we can possibly heal ourselves, pull the thorns out of our psychology, out of our souls. I think a self aware person that can do this has a better chance.

Which is why I maintain that a person can create his personal heaven and hell right here, on this plane of existence. You are,  in large part, in control of your life.

What I said is more akin to the difference between believing someone, and believing that they believe what they're saying.

There are people who have seen orbs and other unexplainable stuff, mentally ill people absolutely convinced of what they think is happening, what they think they know, and so on. I know that these people "know"....

Most of the time, whatever they saw can be explained with basic scientific observation. If they're mentally ill, you can write off any "observation" they've had immediately.

I just accept human experience as a sole contributor to life, rather than objective reality. You can brain wash children with lies, and, neurologically, complete gibberish may have no distinction from validated facts in the minds of others.

Those sorts of people are fools. They allow themselves to be manipulated.

But faith of what? It doesn't have to be of god or heaven, and letting go of many things is certainly a large part of most spiritual paths.

Faith in this instance refers to faith in a higher being. You don't need faith when it comes to reality. I don't have faith that four meals a day is good for me because I objectively know it to be true.

[Sabby]

This is exactly why I can't get behind the 'liberal Christian' mindset. It must be a massive cognitive dissonance to have to live a rational and peaceful mortal existence while also holding beliefs of an eternal afterlife. How exactly does someone reach that level of compartmentalizing and not split their brain in half? It gets to the point where I actually kind of have to respect scumf**ks like the WBC more for honestly representing their dogma, rather then holding a Bible in one hand and saying it doesn't condemn X, Y or Z.

That's not to say I'd want all reasonable Christians to double down and become WBC members, I just they're dishonest.

Good and evil are equals; you can not have one without the other. That is one thing the bible is great at conveying but people flat out ignore that important message. To think about how much harm is done because of ones need to be good. Everything every single person does has a component of good and evil.

Still there is a difference between philosophy and faith and for some reason people can't figure it out.

And how exactly does the Bible convey this message?

[whiterabbit]

You ever read the thing? 

Every plasma is hope mired in despair. You know, the whole he loves you but you're going to hell for being human.

[Xeno Killer 2179]

If they feel like the only way they can live is by devoting their lives to an imaginary sky man who watches over their every move, then they haven't been reading much. Also, it's not "Satan's advice". LaVeyan Satanism at its core is glorified atheism. The name only exists as a means of provocation.

When I comment in this thread, I'm rarely referring to the stereotypical western-world sky wizard. Devotion is just a generic way of saying a person spends most of their focus away from worldly affairs (naturally, this often takes the form of a holy/spiritual path). Deny a person accustomed to this their way of life and they may be miserable (or not at all, depending on how developed they are).

To deny a person would mean someone is forcing them away from it. I don't want to force anyone away from anything. What I'm saying is that if a person really feels as though this is all there is to it, then they haven't done much exploring. There's so much more beyond what a book written 5 000 years ago will tell you. It's willful ignorance and I think that's shameful.

I agree with this.
I will add that even people that have been exposed to a lot can still find worldly matters unrewarding. I think you have only ever seen religion/spirituality in an external/structured way. It be personalized very easily. Some people even spiritualize daily activities. It can even be practiced like kegels.

As for satan, I understand him as more of a force, or an office, meaning his influence only has to be called out for what it is.

The only "influence" here is enjoying your life and doing what makes you happy as long as you don't harm anyone in the process. Harm in this instance means actually hurting someone with lasting repercussions; not a kid's parents crying because he masturbated at the age of 14 and now they think God is going to punish them.

I have experienced enough to know that there are subtle influences acting on all of us. Whether they are sentient or not, I do not know. But some of them have unseen consequences spanning years, decades, and so on, and some of them are, to me, Satan.

I mean when it comes to heaven and hell, I don't believe any widely adopted religions offer useful understanding of either. The reward for being good, punishment for being bad, I think is convenient and incomplete. Bad things obviously happen to good people, and vice versa, and regardless of how many people think good people will get goods things, and bad people, bad things, in an absolute sense, it is not an accurate representation of reality, and causes people to ignore what they can do for themselves because they've been lead to believe some invisible thing is taking score and will compensate them.

So you admit then that these false ideas are resulting in people who lead selfish and deterministic lives.

Yes.

But let us say that heaven or hell must be journeyed to and the state of our being determines our ability to access them, rather than some cosmic judge dropping us off somewhere at his subjective whim. To some extent, we control how we are, and if we can change ourselves, we can possibly heal ourselves, pull the thorns out of our psychology, out of our souls. I think a self aware person that can do this has a better chance.

Which is why I maintain that a person can create his personal heaven and hell right here, on this plane of existence. You are,  in large part, in control of your life.

A person can both enjoy life and feel prepared for after death. It's just a balancing act.

What I said is more akin to the difference between believing someone, and believing that they believe what they're saying.

There are people who have seen orbs and other unexplainable stuff, mentally ill people absolutely convinced of what they think is happening, what they think they know, and so on. I know that these people "know"....

Most of the time, whatever they saw can be explained with basic scientific observation. If they're mentally ill, you can write off any "observation" they've had immediately.

I like the idea that magic is science not yet understood. I was saying that life is largely what we think it is, not all of it, but a lot. I was also saying that I can know what a mentally ill person is saying may be impossible, but also know that they know what they saw. I see no contradiction in that.

Finally truth/knowledge within a person does not have a distinction between truth/knowledge in a person that also has external/universal validation (at least, only while looking in that person).

See this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnchhausen_trilemma

Extra credit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_box

I just accept human experience as a sole contributor to life, rather than objective reality. You can brain wash children with lies, and, neurologically, complete gibberish may have no distinction from validated facts in the minds of others.

Those sorts of people are fools. They allow themselves to be manipulated.

Kids are fools for believing what adults tell them? 

But faith of what? It doesn't have to be of god or heaven, and letting go of many things is certainly a large part of most spiritual paths.

Faith in this instance refers to faith in a higher being. You don't need faith when it comes to reality. I don't have faith that four meals a day is good for me because I objectively know it to be true.

I use faith and hope synonymously. I looked up the difference between the two and didn't care much for what I saw. I just know that I hold beliefs, thoughts, intentions, etc, that help me, and this is not what I'm talking about at all:

And how exactly does the Bible convey this message?

"The lord giveth and the lord taketh away. "

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."