Theology

[saintssinphony]

Just curious as to why you would sit an hour with a visiting door to door morman if you aren't one yourself?  Are you that curious or are you looking for answers? 

They came to me and told me that they could improve my life and save my soul. That's a bold claim. If they were comfortable and confident enough with that claim, then they can stand to defend it as well.

It was an old woman and a fairly young one if that helps. I was more interested in the young ones take on it, since the old woman seemed to be the leader here.

I wanted to see how they would fair under questioning. Know what I got? Refusal to give direct responses to questions. After 20 minutes, we went from 'I have proof that God is real' to 'I know in my heart it's true because I've been married 50 years'. Everything after that was them on the defensive. They would answer a question with a story, I would ask them about the story, and they would make excuses for the specifics not adding up or being horrible. I had to really insist to keep them on one point. They just wanted to jump to this or that and keep changing the topic, because if you kept them on one point for more then a minute they started falling apart.

Ya really need to pin them down or you'll spend all day chasing them.

The old woman ended up getting pretty upset and leaving after I caught her in a logic trap (I was in no way rude to her, but she was getting steadily agitated at not being able to answer my questions) but the young woman was much better at listening and didn't have strong reactions. So I guess that was my goal, to maybe coax her to take a closer look at her beliefs.

As for the logic trap...

This has always been a winner for me.

Can God be wrong? They usually answer no.

Can God lie to us? They usually answer no.

God told Abraham to kill his son. As Abraham raised the knife, God appeared and told him not to.

Did God lie to Abraham and did not actually want him to kill his son, or did God change his mind and was mistaken?

Every time I've used this, they claim 'that's opinion' or 'your interpreting it wrong' and then try to get away from that point as quick as they can.

[close]

Isn't it creepy to see how the young ones all follow those older ones around especially when they aren't even related? The look of awe on the childrens faces as they see an older person tell of God and his Holy Greatness.  I've went undercover to a Jehovah convention in my town and I think the children seem brainwashed and so does everyone else but especially the children.  It's really one of the only times in my life I've ever been seriously creeped out by that kind of stuff.  I used to believe brainwashing and mass hallucinations were just hogwash but since seeing all them in mass freaking out like they do I believe it and it's a sight to behold.

[Sabby]

By young, I mean early 20's, but she claimed to have been an Atheist once. I know that would be technically true, but 'I was an Atheist like you once' is a common Mormon tactic.

[ChrisPachi]

I'm perfectly capable of being civil and friendly while debating a Theist.

You did name your recent opponent a simpleton, which tends to be the kind of tone with a lot of 'aggressive' atheists. Religious pomposity makes me mad too, but voicing it just does the cause an injustice IMO. You will in many cases be better educated or at least better informed than the person you are debating, but you don't need to rub that in their faces - it just puts people off-side and sures up the wall that you are repeatedly banging your head against.

[Sabby]

You thought that was an equal give and take? No. That wasn't a debate. That was one person asserting things and refusing to budge on them or elaborate on him. Darth Rinzler has no interest in a civil debate, and that's why he didn't get one. There are plenty of other venues for him to spew his nonsense uncontested and unquestioned, but this ain't one of them.

[KirklandSignature]

By young, I mean early 20's, but she claimed to have been an Atheist once. I know that would be technically true, but 'I was an Atheist like you once' is a common Mormon tactic.

Which is why I think Mormons are preventing America from becoming a truly secular nation. We really dodged a bullet when Mit Romney got beat out by Obama. I can't see Murica becoming a truly awesome secular nation unless the Mormons and those pesky scientologists and that church based out of the vatican are removed from the equation.

[DoomRulz]

As long as people have egos, a secular nation will never exist. In fact, I think an argument could be made that if a secular nation were truly in existence and people weren't constantly under the influence of religious individuals, then it wouldn't challenge the rest of us to think about these rules and they're deemed to be important. I think religion has no place in our political system but without religion having some bearing on our lives, no one would be able to understand why it can be harmful.

[KirklandSignature]

As long as people have egos, a secular nation will never exist. In fact, I think an argument could be made that if a secular nation were truly in existence and people weren't constantly under the influence of religious individuals, then it wouldn't challenge the rest of us to think about these rules and they're deemed to be important. I think religion has no place in our political system but without religion having some bearing on our lives, no one would be able to understand why it can be harmful.

I'm just scared that America is going to become some Mormon theocracy one day and atheists will be hunted down like witches.

[Sabby]

America will have to devolve a lot before we see actual violence and persecution in the streets, but majority of the population identify as Christian and many of them see Atheists as people trying to persecute them, so a heavily religious President could mean a LOT of very dangerous changes.

[DoomRulz]

As long as people have egos, a secular nation will never exist. In fact, I think an argument could be made that if a secular nation were truly in existence and people weren't constantly under the influence of religious individuals, then it wouldn't challenge the rest of us to think about these rules and they're deemed to be important. I think religion has no place in our political system but without religion having some bearing on our lives, no one would be able to understand why it can be harmful.

I'm just scared that America is going to become some Mormon theocracy one day and atheists will be hunted down like witches.

What world are you living in where this is even a remote possibility?

[Cal427eb]

As long as people have egos, a secular nation will never exist. In fact, I think an argument could be made that if a secular nation were truly in existence and people weren't constantly under the influence of religious individuals, then it wouldn't challenge the rest of us to think about these rules and they're deemed to be important. I think religion has no place in our political system but without religion having some bearing on our lives, no one would be able to understand why it can be harmful.

I'm just scared that America is going to become some Mormon theocracy one day and atheists will be hunted down like witches.

LOLWUT. hahahahahaha 

The United States is moving farther and farther away from religion every day. The possibility of something like this happening is zero percent.

[Deathbearer]

As long as people have egos, a secular nation will never exist. In fact, I think an argument could be made that if a secular nation were truly in existence and people weren't constantly under the influence of religious individuals, then it wouldn't challenge the rest of us to think about these rules and they're deemed to be important. I think religion has no place in our political system but without religion having some bearing on our lives, no one would be able to understand why it can be harmful.

I'm just scared that America is going to become some Mormon theocracy one day and atheists will be hunted down like witches.

What world are you living in where this is even a remote possibility?

You don't know what it's like here man...we fought off a Mormon Invasion force last night. Six Mormon Bike Squadrons got in. It was a goddamned blood bath. Bibles were flying everywhere..we lost Jack and Ted. Rick still has scripture plastered on his face. I don't think he's ever going to be right again. Atheist High Command is preparing an assault on the Temple of Doom but I don't think we can win the battle.

[Sabby]

As long as people have egos, a secular nation will never exist. In fact, I think an argument could be made that if a secular nation were truly in existence and people weren't constantly under the influence of religious individuals, then it wouldn't challenge the rest of us to think about these rules and they're deemed to be important. I think religion has no place in our political system but without religion having some bearing on our lives, no one would be able to understand why it can be harmful.

I'm just scared that America is going to become some Mormon theocracy one day and atheists will be hunted down like witches.

LOLWUT. hahahahahaha 

The United States is moving farther and farther away from religion every day. The possibility of something like this happening is zero percent.

I agree that steps forward are being made, but the US is in a weird situation where taking a few giant steps backwards could be easily kicked off. Not far enough to make a witch hunt happen, but still, a lot of that progress could be undone quite easily.

[Cal427eb]

I don't see how. It's not like Christians can just multiply in numbers over night. Also, while there are many that claim to be Christians, it means nothing. They don't go to Church, they don't practice what is written in scripture, and ect. They might as well be counted as part of the Atheist side. 

[Sabby]

It has to do with representation Cal. I realize many Christians are very casual in their belief, but there are also many others who would like to see children pray in school and learn that carbon dating doesn't work and the world could be 6 thousand years old.

If the US were to get a president that sympathized with these opinions, imagine the kind of change that could happen in a short time. Young Earth Creationists get pretty damn far on the ignorance and/or sympathies of their local politicians, imagine what they would do with a well meaning President that either didn't understand the issue but sympathized with the Religious, or actively wanted to help them.

I'm not saying it's throwing the gates of hell open on the country, but it's a foot in the door.

[DoomRulz]

I have a feeling that in 10 years, likely less, the Christians in the U.S. will stop worrying about abortion and other such squabbles and will turn their attention to Islam. It's the fastest growing religion in the world and with Europe 'going to war' with Muslims over the past few years, they'll start crying about terrorists living on home soil.