In The News

Started by DoomRulz, Nov 30, 2012, 03:53:46 AM

Author
In The News (Read 1,412,619 times)

Vertigo

Vertigo

#4845
My opinion, there's a major ethical difference between keeping a marine animal in captivity, as opposed to a land animal. In a good zoo, animal life expectancy typically shoots up astronomically, thanks to individual care, a regular and healthy diet, immediate access to medical attention, and the rarity of intra-species infighting. A lion would be very lucky to make it to ten years in the wild, and they hardly ever last any longer than that - in captivity, that number doubles. Good zoos also do what they can to keep their charges mentally engaged and stimulated, and the animals often form bonds with their keepers and enjoy their company.

But with sealife, an aquarium is no substitute for the real ocean. Animal lifespans are shortened in captivity - the conditions of the water aren't what they're adapted to, and their health fails as a consequence. Often this is due to toxins like chlorine, sometimes it's an absence of microfauna that perform some obscure function in the animal's body, and sometimes it's stress. These are animals which are often adapted for migration: the vast majority of zoo animals are territorial, or are content to stick within a small area if food and social conditions are acceptable, but a fish or cetacean can travel thousands of miles in a year. Confinement does bad things to them, and there's no tank big enough. Captive cetaceans are prone to psychosis, which is why keepers are occasionally attacked and killed - something that never happens in the wild unless the animals are provoked. In the case of sharks, they have such a ridiculously sensitive battery of senses that a captive environment is simply too much stimuli, and puts them into a constant state of stress. This is why great whites fare so poorly in aquariums.

DoomRulz

DoomRulz

#4846
I say bring on the ban. Theme parks like Sea World and Marine Land should never have existed in the first place.

On zoos, we actually had this discussion on Facebook with some people and the rationale I received was that the reason zoos are used in lieu of sanctuaries is because the latter receive almost zero funding and consequently, the animals suffer quite a bit. This is in stark contrast to zoos, which receive far more money and so have better conditions for the animals overall. My issue is just the idea of an animal trapped in a cage, with gawkers coming by and staring just to make money for the zoo (let's face it, it is a form of explanation). My question then becomes, why not ditch the zoos altogether and funnel the money in a wildlife preserve, where the animals can be free in a natural environment?

The1PerfectOrganism

The1PerfectOrganism

#4847
Quote from: DoomRulz on Mar 08, 2014, 02:18:37 PM
I say bring on the ban. Theme parks like Sea World and Marine Land should never have existed in the first place.

On zoos, we actually had this discussion on Facebook with some people and the rationale I received was that the reason zoos are used in lieu of sanctuaries is because the latter receive almost zero funding and consequently, the animals suffer quite a bit. This is in stark contrast to zoos, which receive far more money and so have better conditions for the animals overall. My issue is just the idea of an animal trapped in a cage, with gawkers coming by and staring just to make money for the zoo (let's face it, it is a form of explanation). My question then becomes, why not ditch the zoos altogether and funnel the money in a wildlife preserve, where the animals can be free in a natural environment?


Because no-one would see the animals for the funding to happen.

Human beings also tend to be evil and care about only what they desire.

DoomRulz

DoomRulz

#4848
My only reply to that is a highly idealistic one: people need to stop being selfish then.

But, yeah...it's idealistic, ergo unrealistic.

The1PerfectOrganism

The1PerfectOrganism

#4849
You'd need to destroy a lot of outdated institutions for that ever to happen and get progressives to make new ones which are founded on healthy ideals.

Individualism being key.

RagingDragon

RagingDragon

#4850
Quote from: Vertigo on Mar 08, 2014, 12:16:16 PM
My opinion, there's a major ethical difference between keeping a marine animal in captivity, as opposed to a land animal. In a good zoo, animal life expectancy typically shoots up astronomically, thanks to individual care, a regular and healthy diet, immediate access to medical attention, and the rarity of intra-species infighting. A lion would be very lucky to make it to ten years in the wild, and they hardly ever last any longer than that - in captivity, that number doubles. Good zoos also do what they can to keep their charges mentally engaged and stimulated, and the animals often form bonds with their keepers and enjoy their company.

But with sealife, an aquarium is no substitute for the real ocean. Animal lifespans are shortened in captivity - the conditions of the water aren't what they're adapted to, and their health fails as a consequence. Often this is due to toxins like chlorine, sometimes it's an absence of microfauna that perform some obscure function in the animal's body, and sometimes it's stress. These are animals which are often adapted for migration: the vast majority of zoo animals are territorial, or are content to stick within a small area if food and social conditions are acceptable, but a fish or cetacean can travel thousands of miles in a year. Confinement does bad things to them, and there's no tank big enough. Captive cetaceans are prone to psychosis, which is why keepers are occasionally attacked and killed - something that never happens in the wild unless the animals are provoked. In the case of sharks, they have such a ridiculously sensitive battery of senses that a captive environment is simply too much stimuli, and puts them into a constant state of stress. This is why great whites fare so poorly in aquariums.
What a post, Vertigo. f**king wanted to stand up and clap.



It makes me wonder why we haven't seen the evolution of sea-themed parks yet. Some brilliant venture capitalist needs to embrace the obvious fact that you don't need to recreate the ocean, as it's a big f**ker that pretty much surrounds everything. The new sea parks need to just pen in a huge, huge amount of ocean, and construct viewing facilities around that.

I'm convinced by you guys that sea parks are shitty, unhealthy things to do for animals. Zoos have proven their case and improved greatly over time, and nothing against the marine biologists and trainers that work hard at sea parks to provide us such wonderful attractions, but I'm sure everyone would be happier if the entire thing was revised.

Plus, with an open-ocean park, you could construct it in ways that take advantage of natural ocean migration. Could open the gates, let in some migrating animals, and then let them out after a certain time period, without disrupting natural migration patterns too much. Could be an incredible, very low-impact way to visit sea life and enjoy the wonders of our natural world.

Spoiler
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Eva

Eva

#4851
Quote from: Vertigo on Mar 08, 2014, 12:16:16 PM
My opinion, there's a major ethical difference between keeping a marine animal in captivity, as opposed to a land animal. In a good zoo, animal life expectancy typically shoots up astronomically, thanks to individual care, a regular and healthy diet, immediate access to medical attention, and the rarity of intra-species infighting. A lion would be very lucky to make it to ten years in the wild, and they hardly ever last any longer than that - in captivity, that number doubles. Good zoos also do what they can to keep their charges mentally engaged and stimulated, and the animals often form bonds with their keepers and enjoy their company.

But with sealife, an aquarium is no substitute for the real ocean. Animal lifespans are shortened in captivity - the conditions of the water aren't what they're adapted to, and their health fails as a consequence. Often this is due to toxins like chlorine, sometimes it's an absence of microfauna that perform some obscure function in the animal's body, and sometimes it's stress. These are animals which are often adapted for migration: the vast majority of zoo animals are territorial, or are content to stick within a small area if food and social conditions are acceptable, but a fish or cetacean can travel thousands of miles in a year. Confinement does bad things to them, and there's no tank big enough. Captive cetaceans are prone to psychosis, which is why keepers are occasionally attacked and killed - something that never happens in the wild unless the animals are provoked. In the case of sharks, they have such a ridiculously sensitive battery of senses that a captive environment is simply too much stimuli, and puts them into a constant state of stress. This is why great whites fare so poorly in aquariums.

Some nice arguments, although I don't think we can transfer human based opinions of what makes 'a good life' and the opposite onto animals so easily. I don't think animals think of longivity, considering most of them by far have no concept of mortality, not least their own. How could they develop one and be expected to project its implications onto themselves?

I like going to animal reserves, zoos, whatever. I think they serve one very useful purpose: they educate kids and adults alike in how animals from all over the world are precious and worthy of preservation and protection. No book will teach a pupil this lesson as well as actually looking at the animals themselves and experience them as sentient beings.

Besides, I can't honestly be offended about how animals in zoos are being treated, knowing that we kill and eat billions of animals every day on an industrial scale, many of which lived their entire life under very poor conditions and where breed for no other purpose than to end up on a plate.

Rong

Rong

#4852
Quote from: Eva on Mar 08, 2014, 08:04:41 PM
Besides, I can't honestly be offended about how animals in zoos are being treated, knowing that we kill and eat billions of animals every day on an industrial scale, many of which lived their entire life under very poor conditions and where breed for no other purpose than to end up on a plate.

+1

I hate the obvious double standard, and it's where I get on board with RD's idea of you should be hunting and killing your own meat, if only so you respect it.

Topazora

Topazora

#4853
Sorry for not posting earlier.  To be honest, I don't feel I have the proper information to form an educated opinion, or end up forming an opinion that sacrifices logic for emotion.  But the thing, it is happening in my city, and it will have an effect.
I am often suspect of documentaries like Black Fish and Fork Over Knives.  While they do bring up good points we need to look into, they often have underlining agenda that may go way further than we're willing go, exp: stop the abuse of livestock- yes, so go vegetarian- biologically, we shouldn't.  The law is being written based on the documentary Black Fish, which is a very one sided and biased piece, and credibility is being questioned.  Quite frankly, I am loathed to think a state senator would create a law based on what he's seen in a questionable documentary, and the idea that these people can create documentaries and have laws made based on their ideas alone.
Do I think Seaworld should be done away with?  I don't know how the animals are being treated and how they are fairing.  I'm not a marine biologist.  I can only base any opinion on, really, emotion.  I don't know the details.  I do know that Seaworld has done a lot when it comes to caring for wild animals that have been harmed due to environmental disasters- both man made and natural.  There is a lot of good that comes from Seaworld.  As for how the animals are being treated, I don't know.  If Seaworld is abusing their animals, and the "humiliation" is having an adverse affect, then yeah, something needs to be done- with the blessing of people who would know what their talking about and have an objective view point.
That's not happening here, a law is being written based on a very questionable documentary.

Xenodog

Xenodog

#4854
Quote from: Rong on Mar 08, 2014, 08:09:08 PM
Quote from: Eva on Mar 08, 2014, 08:04:41 PM
Besides, I can't honestly be offended about how animals in zoos are being treated, knowing that we kill and eat billions of animals every day on an industrial scale, many of which lived their entire life under very poor conditions and where breed for no other purpose than to end up on a plate.

+1

I hate the obvious double standard, and it's where I get on board with RD's idea of you should be hunting and killing your own meat, if only so you respect it.

The obvious double standard is a huge disparity but the attitude of "If all animals are treated shit then oh well" is just flat out dumb.
Besides, there are two standards of animal anyway and there's no other way of looking at it. Domestic species or subspecies of animals bred by humans that without them wouldn't exist, and wild animals. If we stopped eating pigs, they wouldn't all go to a fictional piggy sanctuary or be released somewhere, the likelihood is they'd be mass euthanized. They were brought into existence itself and continue to exist for human purposes.

Rong

Rong

#4855
Just to make it clear I don't like animals being mistreated in general, and your right it's ignorant and lazy to go oh well f**k those animals but I don't think either myself or Eva were saying that.

i eat free range organic meat when and where I can.

Topazora

Topazora

#4856
Quote from: Rong on Mar 08, 2014, 08:38:41 PM
i eat free range organic meat when and where I can.

oh, you know that's not what the animal activist meant when they made documentaries on the mistreatment of livestock. They want you to go vegan and eat tofu.

Xenodog

Xenodog

#4857
Perhaps not, but:
Quote from: EvaBesides, I can't honestly be offended about how animals in zoos are being treated, knowing that we kill and eat billions of animals every day on an industrial scale,
Seems like a lazy opinion and deleterious to effort to improve zoo husbandry and aid conservation.

On zoos themselves, I agree with Gerald Durrel's thoughts in Stationary Ark, in that zoos should be conservation first, education second and not about human entertainment.

Cvalda

Cvalda

#4858
Quote from: Topazora on Mar 08, 2014, 08:29:17 PM
The law is being written based on the documentary Black Fish, which is a very one sided and biased piece, and credibility is being questioned.  Quite frankly, I am loathed to think a state senator would create a law based on what he's seen in a questionable documentary, and the idea that these people can create documentaries and have laws made based on their ideas alone.
Have you seen it?

It's not particularly well made, but its case is pretty open and shut. Rebuttals to it run mostly along the lines of apologizing for or being willfully dishonest in the interest of a crass corporation that profits off of animal suffering, so...

Eva

Eva

#4859
Quote from: Xenodog on Mar 08, 2014, 08:31:19 PM
The obvious double standard is a huge disparity but the attitude of "If all animals are treated shit then oh well" is just flat out dumb.
Besides, there are two standards of animal anyway and there's no other way of looking at it. Domestic species or subspecies of animals bred by humans that without them wouldn't exist, and wild animals. If we stopped eating pigs, they wouldn't all go to a fictional piggy sanctuary or be released somewhere, the likelihood is they'd be mass euthanized. They were brought into existence itself and continue to exist for human purposes.

That's not the attitude I advocated, nor is it an attitude I can identify with. My point was that we clearly transfer human emotions onto animals, depending on which animal they are, how they look, pet or wild etc. We have a value system of sorts and 'pet-class animals' will always outvalue domestic/production animals. Not because the animals themselves give a shit about how we catagorise them - it's purely our own f'd-up concepts of some animals being worth more than others.

I'll bet all the douches bitching about a certain giraf ending its days in the lions cage recently, had no trouble enjoying their Big Mac that same day, not giving a shit about what poor life that cow they just ate a piece of lived.

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