Eggmorphing

Started by Nostromo, Sep 07, 2016, 01:49:01 AM

Do you want eggmorphing to remain as part of the Alien mythos?

Yes, it adds mystique to the Alien
17 (37%)
No, it's too complicated or might cause continuity issues
5 (10.9%)
Yes, but keep the Alien Queen concept as well
20 (43.5%)
Forget it, It's too gross, I won't be able to eat afterwards
0 (0%)
Transform the idea into Queenmorphing (Queen egg)
2 (4.3%)
Other, explain below
2 (4.3%)

Total Members Voted: 46

Author
Eggmorphing (Read 15,347 times)

Nostromo

Nostromo

Anyone want to talk about some sexy eggmorphing?

How exactly did Brett turn out like that? What was happening to Parker up there?



Local Trouble

Local Trouble

#1
It's a fine concept, but I maintain that the scene in which Ripley discovered her eggmorphing crewmates is non-canon.  As I said in an earlier thread:

Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 02, 2016, 05:15:07 PM
I don't like it for the same reason I opposed fans who wanted it reinstated years before DVDs existed: Ripley's "so who's laying these eggs?" question in Aliens makes no sense if that scene happened.

Cameron disregarded it because it wasn't in the theatrical release and wrote the screenplay for the sequel accordingly.  That's why Ripley doesn't know where eggs come from and why we got a queen instead.

That being said, I don't rule out the concept of eggmorphing. I just don't like that the scene of it from the original movie was restored in the Director's Cut because of its effect on the overall narrative.

Nostromo

Nostromo

#2
Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 07, 2016, 02:20:19 AM
It's a fine concept, but I maintain that the scene in which Ripley discovered her eggmorphing crewmates is non-canon.  As I said in an earlier thread:

Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 02, 2016, 05:15:07 PM
I don't like it for the same reason I opposed fans who wanted it reinstated years before DVDs existed: Ripley's "so who's laying these eggs?" question in Aliens makes no sense if that scene happened.

Cameron disregarded it because it wasn't in the theatrical release and wrote the screenplay for the sequel accordingly.  That's why Ripley doesn't know where eggs come from and why we got a queen instead.

That being said, I don't rule out the concept of eggmorphing. I just don't like that the scene of it from the original movie was restored in the Director's Cut because of its effect on the overall narrative.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy that. I think Ridley Scott and Fox have the last say on this. Besides, what does Cameron (my 3rd best director after Lucas & Scott) have to do with anything Alien now, he's out filming Pocahontas in la la land for the next decade. We saw eggplant Brett in the director's cut as part of the movie, therefore it should be canon.

SM

SM

#3
Local Trouble didn't say eggmorphing wasn't canon.

There's nothing to rule out eggmorphing, and I believe this is deliberate.

However, LT is correct in that if we accept the Director's Cut events as canonical it creates two continuity gaffs in Aliens.

One - 'who's laying these eggs' as mentioned.
Two - Gorman asks Ripley what the hive is and she says "I don't know".

Nostromo

Nostromo

#4
I found this on AVP Wikia, interesting that it almost appeared on A3. Btw, don't mess with my eggmorphing man! It can coexist with the ant concept and your boring queen lol.

Eggmorphing
"Eggmorphing" is a process by which Xenomorphs are capable of transforming non-Xenomorph organic material into a viable Egg. It is in essence an alternate means of reproduction that does not require the presence of an Egg-laying Queen. The concept originates from a deleted scene in Alien, and despite the fact all reference to it was removed from the theatrical release of the film, Eggmorphing has gone on to be a noteworthy aspect of the Alien franchise.


OVERVIEW
While the mechanics of the process are unknown, essentially it involves the Xenomorph cocooning a victim and subsequently converting them into a new Egg containing a Facehugger. Notably, the victim does not need to be alive for this process to be successful — deceased matter is equally viable, as was the case with Samuel Brett. Typically, a second, live victim would be cocooned alongside the Eggmorphing subject, thereby providing a viable host for the Facehugger, once it has developed.


BEHIND THE SCENES
Alien
Eggmorphing was originally to be witnessed during the climax of Alien, when Ripley discovers Dallas and Brett cocooned in the Nostromo's hold, with Brett being transformed into an Egg. The entire sequence was cut as director Ridley Scott felt it slowed down the final act of the film. However, the scene did appear in the movie's novelization, and was referenced in the novelizations of the sequel films.

More Info
The Book of Alien, which first revealed the existence of the Eggmorphing scene.

Unlike many deleted scenes from movies, especially from the time period, the lost Eggmorphing scene actually became fairly well known following the film's release, and not just as a result of its inclusion in the novel. The existence of a filmed version of the scene was first confirmed in the behind the scenes book The Book of Alien, published to coincide with the release of the movie. Several other publications from the same year also mentioned the cut sequence, including the Officially Authorized Magazine of the Movie and two articles in the monthly magazine Famous Monsters of Filmland (issues 158 and 159), both of which were produced by Warren Publishing. In 1992, the actual footage of the scene was released to the public for the first time, along with several other deleted scenes from the movie, as part of the LaserDisc release of Alien. The scene was subsequently discussed in numerous sources, including the book Giger's Alien and an issue of Aliens magazine, while the footage went on to appear on various other home video releases, as well as in documentaries on the making of the film, starting with The Alien Legacy. Finally, in 2003, the Eggmorphing scene was reinstated (albeit partially) into the film for its Director's Cut.

With the removal of the Eggmorphing scene, the manner in which the Xenomorph Eggs were originally created was left unclear in Alien. When James Cameron came to make the sequel Aliens, he devised the Queen as a means to fill the Xenomorph's reproductive gap. Even before the release of the Director's Cut of Alien, the Eggmorphing scene was fairly well known, and fans have for many years debated whether the two differing means of Xenomorph reproduction can co-exist, or whether Eggmorphing should be disregarded as a retconned curio, given that it was originally deleted from the first movie. The issue of these differing methods of reproduction has largely been ignored in official sources, the only notable exception being the novelization of Alien3, which states that both forms of reproduction are typical of the species, and that either can be used to create more Xenomorphs, dependant on the situation.

Later appearances and references
Despite its removal from Alien, the process of Eggmorphing appeared in several of the unproduced scripts written for Alien3, most notably Eric Red's unproduced script. A similar scene was included in early versions of the final shooting script for the third film, but was again cut from the movie, this time before filming.

Following the release of Alien: Isolation, it was theorized that Eggmorphing may have been responsible for the Eggs seen in the Hive aboard Sevastopol Station. However, the game's developers later confirmed that a Queen was in fact the source of the Eggs, she merely remains unseen in the game.

TRIVIA
Some have theorized that Eggmorphing could be the means by which Xenomorphs create a Queen.
Quotes from Ridley Scott seem to imply that Eggmorphing actually involves the human 'host' serving simply as a source of nutrients or 'yolk' for the growing Egg, rather than physically becoming the Egg itself, as is typically assumed.

APPEARANCES
Alien Director's Cut/novel
Aliens (novel) (mentioned only)
Alien3 (novel) (mentioned only)
Alien vs Predator (1993 video game)
Alien vs Predator (1994 Jaguar video game)





To be frank, I think it doubles the mystique of the Alien if eggmorphing is valid. With or without the Queen. It's a win win situation for everyone, for the fans, the franchise and for the poor lonely Alien who manages to latch on some unsuspecting ride aboard a vessel.

If the eggmorphing is too complicated for the masses, why not transform the concept into queenmorphing instead?

Eggmorphing is too bad ass though. I'd never get rid of that concept.

windebieste

windebieste

#5
Quote from: SM on Sep 07, 2016, 03:32:17 AM

However, LT is correct in that if we accept the Director's Cut events as canonical it creates two continuity gaffs in Aliens.

One - 'who's laying these eggs' as mentioned.

In the first instance, Ripley has no idea what's going on in that scene. 

She comes across the deceased Bret and immobilsed Dallas but she doesn't exactly stop to analyse what's happening to either of them.  Nor is she a biologist, let alone an expert in xenobiology.  As far as she knows, the Alien has fastened them to the wall her understanding is that dallas is suffering.  It could be using them as a food source for all she knows.  Remember, Ripley hasn't even seen an Alien egg at this point so even the partial formations of the egg around Bret is meaningless to her. 

So, no.  Even after viewing The DC, she still doesn't know how the eggs are created.  There's no connection for her - only for the audience, and largely only because we've been told via external sources.  It's not immediately present in the movie.

Quote from: SM on Sep 07, 2016, 03:32:17 AM
Two - Gorman asks Ripley what the hive is and she says "I don't know".

Well, maybe she doesn't know. 

As soon as she saw them, she didn't exactly scream "Stay clear from those facehuggers in jars!  Those things can bleed acid and will kill you!", either.  ...and she knew they could do that.  That's a bigger gaff as far as I am concerned.  She just says "Uh-huh." when Burke queries her about them.  You can put it down to her lacking the technical knowledge for xenobiology, after all, that's not her area of expertise.  Why would she know better?

You could claim the same for her first glimpse of the hive in the AP.

- - -

Either way, there's no reason why eggmorphing and the Queen can't co-exist.  I wouldn't be surprised if Scott re-introduces it at some point in one of his upcoming movies to really freshen things up.  He's already demonstrated a preparedness to embrace previous concepts discarded from earlier versions of 'ALIEN' and also out to mix things up quite a bit from what we have already seen in 'Prometheus'. 

At least once across the next 3 movies, I'd say it's a safe bet that eggmorphing will appear.  Besides, Scott has his own ideas about what he wants to do with these movies.  He's more likely to include his own ideas than be slave to anything anyone else has created, including Cameron's Queen.

Honestly, though.  I think we will see both.  There's 3 movies coming - and Scott rarely likes to repeat himself and he's going to need to rely a good diversity of content to make them all worth watching. 

-Windebieste.






Nostromo

Nostromo

#6
Interesting ideas and thoughts guys. By the way, who first wrote the concept of eggmorphing? Was it in Dan O'Bannon's & Ron Shussett's script, or did Giger or Scott or Giler bring it up?

By the way, I added a poll for fun. Goodnight.

SM

SM

#7
O'Bannon.

Perfect-Organism

Perfect-Organism

#8
I voted other.  Basically, if the aliens are naturally evolved animals, then I would say no egg-morphing.  I am basing that on earth creature reproduction, which afaik always occurs in a set way per species.  I know it's an alien so the analogy may not make sense, but the alien reproductive system would seem a bit overwrought to me.

If on the other hand, they're engineered weapons, then anything goes.  If I engineered them, I would put in failsafes like that.

Overall, I like the ambiguity.  I like watching the extended cut of alien knowing that it doesn't necessarily represent canon.  I'm all for alternate realities.  And while we're on the subject of alternate realities, I'm really excited for Neil Bl... Just kidding!  Not here..

Corporal Hicks

Corporal Hicks

#9
Quote from: windebieste on Sep 07, 2016, 04:15:08 AM
In the first instance, Ripley has no idea what's going on in that scene. 

She comes across the deceased Bret and immobilsed Dallas but she doesn't exactly stop to analyse what's happening to either of them.  Nor is she a biologist, let alone an expert in xenobiology.  As far as she knows, the Alien has fastened them to the wall her understanding is that dallas is suffering.  It could be using them as a food source for all she knows.  Remember, Ripley hasn't even seen an Alien egg at this point so even the partial formations of the egg around Bret is meaningless to her. 

So, no.  Even after viewing The DC, she still doesn't know how the eggs are created.  There's no connection for her - only for the audience, and largely only because we've been told via external sources.  It's not immediately present in the movie.

I know where you're coming from but it's too obvious with just a curiousy glance that Brett looks like an egg. Granted, she wouldn't know exactly what the Alien eggs look like at this point but she should be aware the hugger came from an egg and Brett looks like an egg.

Quote from: Nostromo on Sep 07, 2016, 03:42:05 AM
I found this on AVP Wikia, interesting that it almost appeared on A3. Btw, don't mess with my eggmorphing man! It can coexist with the ant concept and your boring queen lol.

It was also brought up in the Alien 3 novelization too - http://www.avpgalaxy.net/website/interviews/alan-dean-foster/

Corporal Hicks – In the Alien 3 novelization you referenced back to the egg-morphing scene deleted from Alien. Why did you decide to reconcile the two methods in the book?

Alan Dean Foster – Insightful and necessary question.  The obvious (and I hope successful) attempt to rationalize two methods was necessary once the whole queen alien biology was put forth in Aliens. Otherwise, there's no reason for the single alien in the first film to go through the whole coccooning business.

A good example of something a novelizer doesn't have to worry about...but a science-fiction writer does.

Corporal Hicks – Was it something you'd been asked to do or was it a concern of your own?

Alan Dean Foster – Concern of my own.


I can't remember about the other scripts though. I've just about purged Red's script from my memory. They did build some cocoons for Alien 3 that folk often think are for eggmorphing but they weren't.

Local Trouble

Local Trouble

#10
Quote from: Nostromo on Sep 07, 2016, 03:24:05 AMWe saw eggplant Brett in the director's cut as part of the movie, therefore it should be canon.

I disagree.

426Buddy

426Buddy

#11
Theatrical versions of these films should be the only ones considered canon.

I think having egg morphing and the queen is the best way to go.

Machiko Naguchi

Machiko Naguchi

#12
I voted no because it just seems dumb to me. I know it is science fiction and there are all kinds of far fetched things going on in the universe, but the rest of the lifecycle makes logical sense to me. The idea of having one thing turn into another like alchemy doesn't fit this type of movie. To me that is more for a fantasy type of movie with "magic" or whatever. Just my opinion.

Like someone else said earlier, I guess it would make sense if the alien was specifically engineered as a bio weapon because you would want an adaptable backup plan for your soldiers. But if it is a more of a natural creature then I would go with what I said above.

426Buddy

426Buddy

#13
Quote from: Machiko Naguchi on Sep 07, 2016, 07:52:15 PM
I voted no because it just seems dumb to me. I know it is science fiction and there are all kinds of far fetched things going on in the universe, but the rest of the lifecycle makes logical sense to me. The idea of having one thing turn into another like alchemy doesn't fit this type of movie. To me that is more for a fantasy type of movie with "magic" or whatever. Just my opinion.

Like someone else said earlier, I guess it would make sense if the alien was specifically engineered as a bio weapon because you would want an adaptable backup plan for your soldiers. But if it is a more of a natural creature then I would go with what I said above.

It's actually not far fetched at all and certainly not magic. With egg morphing the general idea is that an embryo is planted in or on the host and then uses the host for nourishment to grow into an egg with a hugger inside. The idea was actually inspired by insects.

windebieste

windebieste

#14
Quote from: Machiko Naguchi on Sep 07, 2016, 07:52:15 PMThe idea of having one thing turn into another like alchemy doesn't fit this type of movie. To me that is more for a fantasy type of movie with "magic" or whatever. Just my opinion.

Seeing as everyone loves the analogies of insects and Aliens, let's go that route for the sake of convenience, erroneous as it is.  I've mentioned this before.  Caterpillars don't just become butterflies when undergoing metamorphosis in their coccoon.  The body inside chrysalis actually breaks down its  proteins with enzymes and the contents of the cocoon become like a viscous jelly.  Basically, the caterpillar has become an organised mass of goo (sound familiar?) with various organs and other hard body parts present.  The gellatinous mass then re-organises itself and emerges as a winged insect. 

So such dramatic transformations in the real world are genuine and very, very strange.  Eggmorphing, as a speculated means of breaking down its host and reorganising it for the sake of propagation and becoming an egg is just as valid, in a fictional sense. 

As far as multiple means of reproduction goes, yes.  We have samples of organisms on Earth (the real deal!) that reproduce both sexually (requiring a partner of the opposite gender) and axesually (no partner required).  Organisms such as slime moulds and sea anenomes. So it's not too far fetched that a fictional space monster can't possess dual means of reproduction, too. 

I'm not a biologist - we really need someone with such credentials here.  Either way, they'd add to the list.

Whatever, it's not 'alchemy' or 'dumb' or 'magic'.  Multiple means of reproduction is represent and documented on our own world so it's not too far fetched as a concept that other life forms elsewhere can do so as well.  As far as I'm concerned, eggmorphing and egglaying by the Queen are equally valid and as they are both documented within the movies without conflict - because there isn't any - there should be no argument about them both being present.

They are different aspects of the same organism. 

-Windebieste.



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