Quote from: SM on Jun 17, 2013, 11:36:11 PM
Hooray for glass half empty...
Trust, but verify.
Sorry for the cynicism, but Iran's actions and habitual obfuscation, over the decades, demands being suspicious of their actions if you're a realist.
Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Jun 18, 2013, 01:14:57 AM
Israel is playing hardball with its neighbors and has really pushed its former ally Turkey away. Israeli border activity is no joke...
Of course it plays hardball. Strength is what's respected out there.
And I suggest you re-examine Turkey's own actions.
QuoteYeah, let's all forget about the near-Apartheid system upheld over there...
If you want to call it that, you're entitled to. I won't agree, however.
QuoteThere is only "restraint" here because our reputation is at hold. If they (Israel) go all in we (USA) will have to join them, and it's going to be ugly. They can't afford that to happen.
Nonsense. The IDF has shown unbelievable restraint in its major operations. There's plenty of footage available of them aborting missions altogether, because they've found civilians in the nearby area. They go to the bother of
telephoning target buildings in advance, to let those inside get out in advance, even when they know they're being used as nothing more than ammunition stockpiles and launch sites. Name me another military in the world which goes to an extreme like that last one... You'll have a very difficult time (mostly, because it's highly illogical; you should be seeking to terminate as many operators as you can).
QuoteQuoteThe most recent actions were only after months of having hundreds of rockets being fired at them. I wouldn't expect my own government to do nothing about that, so, I don't blame the Israelis from trying to take out what they can.
And prior to that??? Israel did absolutely nothing to provoke that? Ridiculous! Both sides are guilty as hell. The only difference here is that Israel go overkill every single time something happens. 2 Israelis killed plus two houses roughed up result in 120 Palestines killed and two blocks turned into smoking cinder. Good job guys! That'll show them!
You're trying to insert moral equivalence. There isn't much of that to be had. HAMAS was launching rockets because they seek
the destruction of Israel. It's nothing to do with being 'provoked'. They kept getting away with it for
months and it emboldened them to launch more and more, until it was in the hundreds per day.
You might also recall that the Israelis threatened to re-invade to put an end to that, once and for all. The fact that they ultimately didn't runs counter to the narrative you keep putting up, of them wanting nothing but death and destruction for their neighbours (when it would be
far more popular and profitable to simply get along and trade with them).
Quote...or maybe because the Palestine resistance is a joke compared to the mighty Israeli army, 100% backed up by us. Those rockets are just glorified firecrackers on speed. They do minimum damage. No other (civilized) nation would even consider to do what Israel has been doing for ages now. Iron Dome is like killing flies with a flamethrower.
I'm confused... You want me to feel sorry for them because they don't have the capacity to flatten Israel?
If it wasn't for Iron Dome, the destruction would have been
well in excess of what it was. You're forgetting that HAMAS and co were starting to fire more than just the usual short-range, unguided stuff. That's the whole point of Iron Dome - it doesn't fire
unless it calculates that a munition
will hit a populated area. Look at how many times it fired. Combine that with those it missed and you have your answer for how much more dangerous it would have been, had Iron Dome not been there.
QuoteNo. Actually try diplomacy for once. Real diplomacy. Not one-way direction US-Israel "our way or the highway" diplomacy. Both sides have to cut back and compromise, but it is up to the stronger side to reach out and be patient, not the weaker side.
All they were asking was for the other side
to stop firing hundreds of rockets at them. How does this equate to 'our way or the highway'? Surely, it's a pretty common sense request?
And when they did that, Israel stopped returning fire, just as they said they would.
QuoteThe epic hypocrisy of the only country that ever nuked another nation (the U.S.) and its overtly violent and trigger-happy friend (Israel) - both possessing an arsenal of nuclear weapons - forbidding another hardball nation (Iran) to develop their own nuclear technology, which might result in nuclear weapons, just won't get us anywhere, because it's just a big joke.
With respect, you're putting out lots of strawman arguments here.
Yes, the US is the only nation to have used nuclear weapons in war. When you put that in its historical context, however, then it doesn't comes across as ominous as you intended.
Yes, Israel has nuclear weapons. yes, it's also demonstrated itself responsible enough to handle them, because of neither using them in anger or handing them out to terrorist groups. The threat of Iran having that same capability is that it
would do at least one of those things, if not both.
If a thug down the bottom of your road is supplying local criminals in your area with guns and has been holding town hall meetings, where it calls for your house to be blown up and your family killed, for many decades, is it not common sense for the authorities to be suspicious of their motives when they start talking about importing dynamite for 'construction purposes'?
And, considering how much obfuscation they've put in the path of inspectors, that should tell us all we need to know about whether their ambitions are noble.
QuoteQuoteAnd, no, diplomatic pressure, by itself, won't change anything. Unfortunately, Russia and China, as per usual, have constantly stood in the way of most kinds of sanctions which would have had a chance of affecting the nuclear programme, directly. What has been passed is affecting the ordinary people and not seeming to do anything to slow down the heart of the matter. Too little, too late.
There were a bunch or reports published both in NY Times, TIME Magazine and Washington Post after former president Ahmadinejad's speech at the UN that sanctions against Iran do more harm than good and is actually helping the Ayatollah & Co more than hurting them, simply because Iran is no an unstable nation despite it being really fawked up in so many other ways.
Exactly. They hurt the ordinary people and economy. They're
not halting the nuclear programme. We don't even have any indications that it's slowing down (if anything, there are indications that it's sped up).
QuoteI never said this guy is Jesus.
No, but if he's one of those who was boasting about how easy it's been to fool the West and carry on with the nuclear programme in secret, that should start to ring some alarm bells, no?
QuoteQuoteIran's the one who's made the decision, no-one else. If they put a halt to it, awesome. But I see no signs of that happening, so far. I'm expecting, at most, a few token relaxations of domestic oppression, to ease off the potential of further riots, due to the failing economy.
Et viola! That is indeed change! That is making things better even if only slightly! It's a sign that the conservatives in Iran slowly, slowly, but hopefully steadily, are losing their grip over the country. They've realized that they won't be able to continue controlling the country unless they do something, and since Iran is f****d up rather than bat-shit crazy, they're trying to deal with the people through what looks like democracy (democracy that has been tampered with that is...).
You fail to see my point. I wrote, earlier on, that it only matters if the changes are
meaningful. If they're token, at best, then they're almost worthless. And if they're done purely to avoid riots, that means they're short term and done out of political expedience, not because of being a true 'moderate'.
All I'm saying is that we should wait to see some legitimate changes before celebrating a change of the proverbial business card. The same regime is still in control. Their 'Supreme Leader' is still the one calling the shots.
If things, meaningful things, really
do happen? I'll be very happy for the world. But I've got every reason to remain highly suspicious until they do.
