Neill Blomkamp: Alien3 & Resurrection "Went Off The Rails"

Started by Tough little S.O.B., Mar 02, 2015, 05:41:34 PM

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Neill Blomkamp: Alien3 & Resurrection "Went Off The Rails" (Read 82,388 times)

Feeds On Minds

Aliens was clearly made for teens; while Alien 3 was made with adults in mind.  I'm always amazed by how many fans of the series cry like little girls over Newt's death.

whiterabbit

Kids dying in any situation is horrific, you guys are sick and twisted. Which is why Alien3 took the easy way out and drowned the girl in her sleep. :P

Quote from: Feeds On Minds on Mar 13, 2015, 08:17:24 PM
Aliens was clearly made for teens; while Alien 3 was made with adults in mind.  I'm always amazed by how many fans of the series cry like little girls over Newt's death.
... hmm I saw alien3 as a teen and I liked it... I knew it. I was way more mature than the average teenager.  ;)

Alien³

Quote from: whiterabbit on Mar 13, 2015, 08:36:29 PM
Kids dying in any situation is horrific, you guys are sick and twisted.

It is horrific. That is why Alien 3's opening is a defining moment in blockbuster history, they slap their audience across the face with the harsh reality of the alien universe. It hurts as its meant to. To be fair though Newt and Hicks are the only characters in the franchise (so far) to get a full on emotional funeral. No other character had that privilege.

Quote from: whiterabbit on Mar 13, 2015, 08:36:29 PM
Which is why Alien3 took the easy way out and drowned the girl in her sleep. :P

She was awake dude...




Alien³

Almost shows weakness.


Valaquen

Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 13, 2015, 10:23:11 PM
It is horrific. That is why Alien 3's opening is a defining moment in blockbuster history, they slap their audience across the face with the harsh reality of the alien universe.

That was never the reason it was done. It was done becasue the scriptwriter couldn't be f**ked with the characters. That's it, and it's glaring for a massive portion of the audience. The sheer narrative laziness of the opening sequence. By all means kill them off as horribly as you like, but concocting magical eggs and shunting them off during the opening crawl in an effort to clear the deck for Weaver's star power doesn't make for a defining moment in blockbuster history, except maybe to its most ardent fans.

Infamous, maybe.

Alien³

I'm not really talking about the motive behind the writing, more what the final product presents.

As mentioned their deaths were more poignant than most give it credit for. The funeral alone proves that.

OpenMaw

Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 14, 2015, 02:27:15 PM
I'm not really talking about the motive behind the writing, more what the final product presents.

As mentioned their deaths were more poignant than most give it credit for. The funeral alone proves that.

Because many of us do in fact factor in creative intention into giving credit where it is due. Those characters weren't killed off to be be bold. They were killed off because they were in the way of what the powers that be wanted and that's all.


Does it work on that level too? Sure, I guess, for some people... But, it's not some master stroke of creative genius. In fact when you break it down and think about the general, overall, audience reaction of the time you have two camps outside of those who liked the movie at the time.

You have fans who loved Aliens and those characters, who are now being slapped in the face by this opening, and you have new audience members who have no freaking idea who those people are and it really doesn't mean anything to them. They have no idea what Ripley has gone through. So that's 2/3's of the audience right there that are effectively alienated, or at least put off by the opening and not in the "universe is so harsh" way. That's one smart element of Aliens. It gives you enough backstory early on so that you are not left off kilter when the new story really begins. It works as it's own movie. Alien 3, on the other hand, really needs Aliens for it's opening to actually carry it's full weight.

HuDaFuK

Quote from: Valaquen on Mar 14, 2015, 01:02:00 PMThat was never the reason it was done. It was done becasue the scriptwriter couldn't be f**ked with the characters.

Wanting to return to just Ripley on her own is very different from not be bothered about the characters.

Just because they killed them to develop Ripley's isolation doesn't mean they didn't care about them.

SiL

Quote from: Valaquen on Mar 14, 2015, 01:02:00 PM
It was done becasue the scriptwriter couldn't be f**ked with the characters.
"The" scriptwriter? Which one?

Hicks was already useless before the credits rolled on Aliens and any script which had Newt die used it as a major point. If they couldn't be f**ked they wouldn't have made such a big deal about her.

xeno-kaname

Quote from: Valaquen on Mar 14, 2015, 01:02:00 PM
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 13, 2015, 10:23:11 PM
It is horrific. That is why Alien 3's opening is a defining moment in blockbuster history, they slap their audience across the face with the harsh reality of the alien universe.

That was never the reason it was done. It was done becasue the scriptwriter couldn't be f**ked with the characters. That's it, and it's glaring for a massive portion of the audience. The sheer narrative laziness of the opening sequence. By all means kill them off as horribly as you like, but concocting magical eggs and shunting them off during the opening crawl in an effort to clear the deck for Weaver's star power doesn't make for a defining moment in blockbuster history, except maybe to its most ardent fans.

Infamous, maybe.

This, exactly.

The Cruentus

Quote from: predxeno on Mar 11, 2015, 07:46:08 PM
The Alien 3 novelization clears a few things up saying that Newt was the original target, but the facehugger got mortally wounded trying to lift open the chamber and somehow it got to Ripley's pod.  Another concept idea was that Newt was the one that was impregnated but upon her death the embryo inside her, realizing its host was dead, slid out of her mouth and into Ripley's.

That was in the comic as well, I absolutely hated that idea because it was utterly retarded. Aliens gestate within the empty space in the chest area, not the stomach, the size of the chestburster that crawled into Ripley's mouth just makes no sense at all, there is no entrance to the chest via esophagus, and even there was, the size of the chestburster means it would be fatal for the host. plus if a chestburster can climb in, they should be able climb out which means bursting out through the chest would be unnecessary and a waste of a recycleable host. I'm glad its not canon.

SpreadEagleBeagle

Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 14, 2015, 02:27:15 PM
I'm not really talking about the motive behind the writing, more what the final product presents.

As mentioned their deaths were more poignant than most give it credit for. The funeral alone proves that.

This, exactly.

Alien³

Alien³

#373
Quote from: OpenMaw on Mar 14, 2015, 07:58:35 PM
That's one smart element of Aliens. It gives you enough backstory early on so that you are not left off kilter when the new story really begins. It works as it's own movie. Alien 3, on the other hand, really needs Aliens for it's opening to actually carry it's full weight.

Alien 3 works on its own too.

All information is there, just as much as the information we're presented in Aliens to Alien.

I like Newt and Hicks characters but it would have been a disservice to the Alien as a character if they had lived. Heck it's the third film it was refreshing to see it shake everything up.

To boot it's the only Alien movie not to have Ripley blow a creature out into space. Change was sorely needed and I for one am glad it did.

Quote from: SiL on Mar 15, 2015, 06:01:38 AM
Quote from: Valaquen on Mar 14, 2015, 01:02:00 PM
It was done becasue the scriptwriter couldn't be f**ked with the characters.
"The" scriptwriter? Which one?

Hicks was already useless before the credits rolled on Aliens and any script which had Newt die used it as a major point. If they couldn't be f**ked they wouldn't have made such a big deal about her.

Exactly.

NetworkATTH

Alien 3 is a film I enjoy, I love it, it's beautiful but even in assembly cut, it isn't the best movie. It has very serious gaping flaws. The plot strings are coming from aspects of an idea that transformed, that don't make thematic sense, and seemingly come out of nowhere.

Ward/Fassano Sequence of Ripley's Character Development

Crash ---> Tragedy ---> Isolation --> Alienation ---> ---> Stowaway Alien Warrior carries Ripley's turmoil with her, killing more people ----> Banishment ---> Shaved Head in Humiliation ---> Comedy of Ripley to Monks, Mocking, Disgust ---> "Locked away" ---> Nightmares and "Morning Sickness" ---> Hallucination ----> Rediscovery ---> Trek ---> Headbursting Sequence in "Tech" Core ---> Ascending upwards in structure --->  Chaos ---> Reach EEV Either Exorcism of Demons both Personal and Literal by John who walks into fire, or suicide of Ripley who tells John to leave in EEV and she commits suicide by fire.

There's a very clear progression here. From the exploration of the satellite world, representing Ripley's journey into her own ego, from outside, penetrating in, getting locked within it, and confronting her own demons (dreams of the Alien raping her, unfolding a tongue of Newt's head, an infant with Alien characteristics floating in an all black environment (her "child" she's carrying) and other terrible hallucinations. As she rediscovers herself, she is rediscovered and chipped away as things get desperate up above. They go to the core of the satellite, getting chased by the Alien "Ripley's demon" as well as the core of Ripley herself, and the core, and lock themselves in, in the version we know of, its just windmills, its tranquil. But one of the characters (the reactionary cleric who became Andrews), skull bursts open carrying an Alien, and I'm sure going into the core of Ripley has relation to this, but whatever that is, what it means is even in Ripley's tranquil heart and the center of her ego, there is still an Alien waiting for her.

So her and John start ascending upwards, reach docks rowing in a boat, with the Alien unseen swimming below them. Blood drips from the wooden ceiling, and ash rains down, all is not well. They reach the surface, the Alien has begun making a nest, everything is on fire, it looks Bosch, and they confront the Alien and it's entombed in molten glass. Ripley reaches her EEV that was imprisoned in wood, and either John exercises her demons from the old grimores he read in the original idea and her demons jump into John who commits suicide by walking into the flames, or per Weaver's wishes, Ripley subverts John's studies and tells John to get in the EEV and go, allowing him to be free, and she walks into the fire, and is consumes in the raging inferno of her own world, her own ego, and finds closure.

It really all could be, that the entire thing was a hypersleep nightmare, in that case. It could be not literal, but a nightmare from her trauma foreshadowed in the beginning of Aliens, where Ripley battles inside of herself to find the closure she needs, which would explain the surreal nature of everything. It could just as well be real, but heavily figurative.

This was how this was to play out as originally written out. What happened with Alien 3 is they thought they could carry some of those ideas into a different setting not to "bizarre" and more "marketable", as well as being more accurate and faithful to the setting, but already with that you remove the whole element of Ripley's progress through the sphere being progress within herself. You could very well have made this prison colony a black metal orb, orbiting a hellish looking world, and removed the wood, but it was decided to lay it on a planet, removing that element entirely.

Then, you have the confused plot itself, desperately trying to recycle elements from Ward's script with either a hard time or little tono intention of stringing it together as he planned out, which in his version makes narrative sense, in all the drafts released, that I've read, it does not carry this.

It plays out more like a mystery. And then, the elements of Ripley's journey, in the Giler and Hill recycling, only comes in full swing in the third act, getting away with it from vague hints in the last two acts, and confused structure. This is just more evidence that they began filming before they even finished the script. There was potential there, but they lost it in rewrites.

David Giler/Walter Hill/Rex Pickett Sequence of Ripley's Character Development (Going by Assembly Cut)

Cryosleep Disaster ---> Crash ---> Discovery by Clemens ---> Rescue ---> Learning of Newt's Death, Hicks Death, Bishop Further Trashing ---> Numb Acceptance ---> Pod Burn Discovery ---> Newt Autopsy ---> Cremation/Ripley Acceptance/Dog/Bull Chestbursting ---> Prisoner Death ---> Ripley unwary ----> Sudden Clemens Romance ----> Another few prisoners die ----> Looking for Bishop ----> Almost Rape ---> In Infirmary, Conversation with Bishop, Dread of learning Alien onboard ---> Morse comes in, Ripley confirms "dragon" ---> Clemens Conversation/Clemens dies ---> Andrews dies ---> Planning lockdown of Alien ----> Fire disaster/ Alien locked down ---> Character development time, learning of company intentions ---> Morse kills, lets loose Alien ---> Argument, known doom, out of ideas ----> Ripley learns of chestburster ----> Ripley Aaron Company Convo 2 ---> Ripley confronts Alien, won't kill her ---> Dillon won't kill her ---> Planning furnace death ---> Maze sequence ---> Company Arrives ----> Dillon dies ---> Alien dies ---> Bishop 2 Conversation ----> Tragedy ---> Suicide

These are more plot events than character arcs. And this is the problem. There is hardly anything going on, other than Ripley being a static object outside of progressing plot events, naimly plans to kill the Alien, so she isn't just a static observer. But, there's hardly any development there. Dragon obviously means demon obviously means Ripley's demons, but this is hardly at all, even attempted at being fleshed out.

Fincher was trying to cover up the fact that it was clear the intended idea wasn't getting across well and everything was jumbled, in part, this was a brutal world. They explored more of the prisoners instead of Ripley, but the prisoners hardly had any characterization, and thankfully removed the bizarre idea of having a servant prisoner to the Alien, whether he being batshit or otherwise influenced by the beast. It was all development hell, and it shows. Fincher nailed down visually, what the Ward script was trying to convey. It is beautiful, tragic, fiery, gothic, hellish, and hopeless. The writing, unfortunately, does not convey its own themes and visuals well. They even had potential monks right there, and they still didn't take advantage of it and nail the Redemption arc they wanted well. It seems like they wanted it, but it hardly shows at all.

And this is probably why Fincher disowned it. He came in, wanting/expecting to do a sequel to Aliens, in the vain of Aliens. This is not what happened. He then came through, and offered advice on actors, his ideas were ignored. He then, did his best to follow the ideas central to what they wanted the film to be, the character arc they thought was beautiful etc. in the Ward drafts, but the writing couldn't carry that well enough. They decided to change to late, and nobody was looking over the writing except for Rex Pickett at one point (everyone hated his revised draft), and they ran out of time and had to keep shooting and writing shooting and writing. What you end up with, is a parody of the plot of the Ward/Fassano drafts, in a beautiful confused mess of a film.

I like Alien 3, but to be honest, it's such a visually arresting film that the visuals themselves can distract from the glaring carcass that was their original intentions.

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