Poll: AvP vs AvPR

[Johnny Handsome]

I just wont ever understand what everyone's beef is with P2. It was a great sequal.

Better then A3 and Resurrection, that's for sure.

Which film carried the Alien franchise?

And what do you mean, carried? The Alien franchise was going strong until Resurrection came out. There was a constant stream of comics, novels and games, and it went through four movies.

If anything, the AvP concept, and is movies, have been carrying the Predator franchise, which bombed by its second movie and barely has half the expanded universe the Alien franchise does. Even if you argue Alien 3 and Resurrection are awful, they still made money and they still got made, which is more than can be said for Predator 3.

AvP made a whole lot of money, and AvP-r was doing fine international, doesn't change the fact that they are poor, just like A 3 and A:rez.
I rather have a classic and a solid sequel then two movies that were done for the sake of having a quadrilogy.

Predator 2 bombed because there was no Arnie and it was too violent, sometimes good movies bomb, it happens and then they stop making them, doesn't have to mean they didn't do another one because it was bad or they ran out of ideas.
There are classic movies out there that just failed miserably at the box office, take Blade Runner for example, it never got a sequel because of that, doesn't change the fact that its one of the finest pieces in Sci-fi ever made.

And a rez didn't made that much money anyway, with its big budget it actually bombed at box office.

I never wished for Predator 3, I'm happy with what we got with Predator 2, its a good ending and the franchise could rest in peace without Harrigan clones running around, something that cant be said for the Alien franchise.

[DoomRulz]

I just wont ever understand what everyone's beef is with P2. It was a great sequal.

Better then A3

Not by a long shot. A3 is a much better film, technically. It has a much better script, better character development, better acting, more suspense, and IMO, had better action.

[Vulhala]

I thought Predator 2 was a terrible movie! Just one cliche after another! Bill Paxtons acting was possibly some of the worst I've seen, but that may have been down to the fact he was given such a two-dimensional character to play in the first place.

And the Danny Glover "Bad-ass cop wiith an attitude" thing was done after Lethal Weapon.

P2 bombed because it was shit. Period.

[Johnny Handsome]

I think Predator 2 is the better movie by a very long shot.
You say it has a better script when infact it didn't really had a script while they were shooting, hence why the shooting went so slow.
They were building sets for a whole different script.

better character development

There is barely any. We get to see some rapists and murderer and having seen the movie half a docent times i still cant think of one character that stood out of the crowd.
Just when we get to know the doctor, he gets killed off.
If anything A3 has poor character development and i never sympathised with any of them.

better acting

There wasn't any outstanding acting scenes in the movie. Sigourney was doing fine, but then again so did Danny Glover who's a very good actor.

more suspense

First movie: Humans running around in dark corridors.
Second movie: humans running around in Dark corridors.
Alien 3: Humans running around in dark corridors again, i dont know about you but the movie didn't thrilled me once when seeing the same thing a third time, plus the dog Alien design didn't looked as scary as the previous.

and IMO, had better action.

To each his own but given the fact that A3 barely has any action at all i go with Predator 2, who has some very good action and stunt sequences.
Hell, the first 10 minutes in Predator 2 are more spectacular then anything in A3.

To me alien 3 feels like an unfinished, rough cut of something the movie makers were uneven with from the start, it lacks everything. It doesn't offer anything new and its a piss poor ending to two great movies. Add the bad effects and plot holes and there goes A3.

Predator 2 all the way.

[Aeus]

Predator 2 had a bunch of no name Jamaicans and Drug Dealers getting slaughtered by the Predator. In the extended edition of Alien 3, everyone who dies has at least something to say. The characterizations of the main characters are great - Ripley, Dillon and Clemens. Ripley is developed into something very different to how she is presented in the previous films, Dillon is a very powerful character who slowly learns to put aside his own prejudices towards Ripley; at first he thinks she can do no good but in the end it is her he comes to for help against the creature. In Predator 2 the characters a very standard, and what you'd expect of such a setting and plot;  the 'hardman' cop, the rookie, the loveable partner, the 'hardman' female cop and the shady, defensive government agent. It's just nothing surprising.

I'd go on but I really can't be bothered to talk about how Predator 2 is inferior in terms of acting, artistic merit, music, suspense, drama, emotional involvement etc. It's just too long a list. The only thing Predator 2 has on Alien 3 is the Predator, which in my opinion is a better creature than the Alien...And of course the action, but that's a given.

[DoomRulz]

Some of the action in Predator 2 was over the top, the least of which: the opening shootout. That was just a big WTF moment for me.

Not to mention: the Predator 2 warehouse scene was a complete ripoff of the hive sequence in Aliens with the marines.

[SiL]

There are classic movies out there that just failed miserably at the box office,

And Predator 2 is not one of them. It's not a classic movie. It's not even as good as the original. I like the movie. It's one heckuva fun ride. But it's a shoddy film and it's no surprise that it bombed and killed the Predator film franchise in its infancy.

take Blade Runner for example, it never got a sequel because of that, doesn't change the fact that its one of the finest pieces in Sci-fi ever made.

Wasn't written for a sequel, doesn't need a sequel, should never have a sequel. Apples and oranges.

And a rez didn't made that much money anyway, with its big budget it actually bombed at box office.

It made twice its budget back, and a little more. 160 million on a 70 million investment. That's not a bomb.

I think Predator 2 is the better movie by a very long shot.

That's nice, but it isn't. Man, I know you're a Predator fan, but it's not the better film. The theatrical cut of Alien 3 is bad, yes. I don't even watch it any more. The extended cut, however, blows Predator 2 out of the water in terms of quality.

We get to see some rapists and murderer and having seen the movie half a docent times i still cant think of one character that stood out of the crowd.

Dillon, Clemens, 85, Morse, Andrews...?

There wasn't any outstanding acting scenes in the movie. Sigourney was doing fine, but then again so did Danny Glover who's a very good actor.

Charles Dance is a better actor than anyone who's appeared in a Predator or AvP movie. Hell, I'd say he's a better actor than the entire cast of Aliens and Alien Resurrection, too. Charles S. Dutton, who played Dillon, also did an awesome job, as did 85 and Andrews.

Bill Paxton's posturing is fun to watch, but I wouldn't call it good acting (Although he is a good actor).

i dont know about you but the movie didn't thrilled me once when seeing the same thing a third time, plus the dog Alien design didn't looked as scary as the previous.

At least Alien 3 tried to have suspense. I can think of maybe one or two sequences in Predator 2 that tried. And failed.

Hell, the first 10 minutes in Predator 2 are more spectacular then anything in A3.

Agreed. Predator 2 wins in the action.

Which is saying nothing, given Alien 3 isn't an action film ...

[Johnny Handsome]

Some of the action in Predator 2 was over the top, the least of which: the opening shootout. That was just a big WTF moment for me.

In the end of the day its almost true. i just watched a video on youtube where people were robbing a shoe store and the people working at the shop just came out and started to shoot all over the place, then the other site started to shoot back. It happens.

Plus the scene was there to show that L.A is out of control, that even the cops are worthless and that its a very violent city. That's basically the reason why the Predator comes to L.A in the first place. Its a spectacular opening sequence and more entertaining then A3 altogether.

Not to mention: the Predator 2 warehouse scene was a complete ripoff of the hive sequence in Aliens with the marines.

Why exactly is it a Rip Off?
The scene has a whole different set up and action going on with the camouflage clothing being invisible to the Predator, they knew were the Predator was so Garber gave them instructions, they were there to capture him not to look for survivors, Harrigan being a prisoner etc. It was a whole different situation.

And Predator 2 is not one of them. It's not a classic movie. It's not even as good as the original. I like the movie. It's one heckuva fun ride. But it's a shoddy film and it's no surprise that it bombed and killed the Predator film franchise in its infancy.

I never referred to it as being a classic, i always say its a good sequel to the first one. Something that cant be said for Alien 3.

Wasn't written for a sequel, doesn't need a sequel, should never have a sequel. Apples and oranges.

Predator wasn't written for a sequel, Alien wasn't written for a sequel, they still got one because they were financially successful, that's how it goes in the movie making industry.
Nobody cares if a movie needs a sequel, if the folks go spend their money they make another one, Blade Runner failed at making money, hence no sequel. Apples and oranges.

It made twice its budget back, and a little more. 160 million on a 70 million investment. That's not a bomb.

I was talking Domestically here, and there it made 45 Mil with a 75 Mil budget. i would call that a Bomb.
Studios are always looking for what the movie makes domestically.
But if you look at it as a whole, Predator 2 didn't bomb either then.

The extended cut, however, blows Predator 2 out of the water in terms of quality.

Its about taste, and for me the extended cut doesn't do anything for movie besides the fact that its now a longer bad movie. The new ending shot sucks, the bull alien sucks, the new effects suck and the little plot about them capturing the Alien makes the creature looks stupid. Now they come up with the explanation that some guy just free it again, WOW how original and what a surprise with house full of insane people.
It really does by no mean blow Predator 2 out of the water, but since you're an Alien fan i see where you're coming from.

Dillon, Clemens, 85, Morse, Andrews...?

I cant remember Morse, but then again, 5 people out of what? 20 - 30?
I wouldn't call that great characterisation, even on the names you just mentioned. Clemens remains flat, 85 is just your stupid jackass cliche that is the outsider, as in almost every movie that has a form of prison to it. Morse, Andrews? What did they do to define their characters?

Charles Dance is a better actor than anyone who's appeared in a Predator or AvP movie. Hell, I'd say he's a better actor than the entire cast of Aliens and Alien Resurrection, too. Charles S. Dutton, who played Dillon, also did an awesome job, as did 85 and Andrews.

Charles Dance is an amazing actor, but i fail to see what made him so outstanding in A3 besides giving Ripley a injection and being killed just when we are about to trust him.

At least Alien 3 tried to have suspense. I can think of maybe one or two sequences in Predator 2 that tried. And failed.

I remember the first time seeing Predator 2 and Alien 3, i was thrilled to the end, especially during the subway scene and the spaceship sequence, which was mindblowing to watch because you didn't expect that to come.
A3 was just another "Lets run through the dark corridors" movie and it was pretty predictable what was going to happen next. It didn't add anything new to the creature, to the setting or the Almighty evil corporation that tried to get their hands to the Alien again.

Agreed. Predator 2 wins in the action.

Which is saying nothing, given Alien 3 isn't an action film ...

I never said A3 was an action movie, but then again i never said that Alien 3 had better action to begin with.

[DoomRulz]

Why exactly is it a Rip Off?
The scene has a whole different set up and action going on with the camouflage clothing being invisible to the Predator, they knew were the Predator was so Garber gave them instructions, they were there to capture him not to look for survivors, Harrigan being a prisoner etc. It was a whole different situation.

The set up is exactly the same. The group of men go into a specific location where the creature has been cornered. Their weapons are inadequate, so they're pretty much all slaughtered. Plus, with two officials monitoring their progress from afar, in the same sort of setting as the APC (mobile vehicle). Harrigan fills the role of Ripley who says "You guys are f**ked, the Aliens have clued in", except for Harrigan, replace Aliens with Predator. Harrigan runs in to save the day, just like Ripley did. The two men monitoring their men's progress is the same thing Gorman was doing for the marines.

[SM]

Why exactly is it a Rip Off?

There's pig-headedness and then there's this. 

[SiL]

i always say its a good sequel to the first one. Something that cant be said for Alien 3.

Sure it can.

Alien 3 is a good sequel to the original. And to Aliens. Yes, it requires one of the laziest bits of writing to get started ("Well, it's ... the egg's just there, okay? Just accept it!"), but it's still a solid film.

Blade Runner failed at making money, hence no sequel.

It wouldn't have had a sequel even if it was successful. Not every successful film gets a sequel. Citizen Kane? Casablanca?

But if you look at it as a whole, Predator 2 didn't bomb either then.

Depends on its budget. It only made 57 million, total.

Its about taste,

Yet you can definitively say Predator 2 is better. Riight.

It really does by no mean blow Predator 2 out of the water, but since you're an Alien fan i see where you're coming from.

Obviously not, because I'm not approaching this as an Alien fan. I'm approaching this as someone watching two movies. You're the one coming at it from a fanboy perspective.

I cant remember Morse, but then again, 5 people out of what? 20 - 30?

Harrigan, Keyes, Leona and Hudson-clone. Four characters. Of all the drug-lords, commuter, and random lackeys in the film, which number well over Alien 3's cast.

Oh, and Garber.

Charles Dance is an amazing actor, but i fail to see what made him so outstanding in A3 besides giving Ripley a injection and being killed just when we are about to trust him.

The character doesn't have to be amazing. But everyone remembers him, and he played the part well.

[SM]

I cant remember Morse, but then again, 5 people out of what? 20 - 30?
Harrigan, Keyes, Leona and Hudson-clone. Four characters. Of all the drug-lords, commuter, and random lackeys in the film, which number well over Alien 3's cast.

Oh, and Garber.

Films don't require 20-30 well characterised characters.  A couple of leads and a few supporting is sufficient.  Alien3 had Ripley, Clemens, Aaron and Dillon.  You could possibly throw in Golic to the AC.  Predator 2?  Been a while - but Harrigan and Keyes are the two most memorable.  Lambert is only memorable because it's Paxton nearly reprising Hudson.

[DoomRulz]

Harrigan, Keyes, Leona and Hudson-clone. Four characters. Of all the drug-lords, commuter, and random lackeys in the film, which number well over Alien 3's cast.

Oh, and Garber.

I didn't see Garber as anything more than the loyal lapdog. Personally, I wouldn't include him in the list of 'memorable characters'.

[Johnny Handsome]

The set up is exactly the same.

Except for the fact that it isn't exactly the same.

The group of men go into a specific location where the creature has been cornered.

And you call that a rip off?
And besides that, the creature hasn't been cornered, he most probably could escape from the roof and in Aliens the creatures weren't cornered either, in Aliens they weren't even there to kill the creatures but to look for survivors. Two totally different reasons.

Their weapons are inadequate, so they're pretty much all slaughtered.

The weapons in Aliens are by no means inadequate, hence why the Aliens are being torn to shreds.

Plus, with two officials monitoring their progress from afar, in the same sort of setting as the APC (mobile vehicle).

It still is a different situation. Garber was giving advices to where the creature was, he was a needed element for the group, Gorman just watched the whole thing shitting his pants.
The setting is not the same as the APC, there are monitors, that's it.

Harrigan fills the role of Ripley who says "You guys are f**ked, the Aliens have clued in", except for Harrigan, replace Aliens with Predator.

Except that Ripley never said that.
Ripley takes over when the group is already decimated and Harrigan is a prisoner who escapes to get the Predators attention on him to save the men with his "You want me, here i am" scream, because he knew all the Predator wanted is him.

The two men monitoring their men's progress is the same thing Gorman was doing for the marines.

Again it was a different situation.
Gorman never had control over anything, he wasn't giving advices like Garber did with the keyes team. Garber knew where the Predator was, gorman didn't knew where the Aliens were, they didn't even knew that there are Aliens for sure.


The situation is different and sure not exactly the same, as you call it.

A group who knows that the Predator exists and studies him wants to capture him so they go into the slaughterhouse with camouflage suits to do the job.
In aliens we have a group that wants to evacuate survivors and don't know for sure if Aliens even exists, they are being ambushed.

In Predator 2 we have a metaphor for the Hunter becoming the hunted. The only thing that is the same is that both are being monitored, WOW, RIP OFF!!

No, just no.

ure it can.

Alien 3 is a good sequel to the original. And to Aliens. Yes, it requires one of the laziest bits of writing to get started ("Well, it's ... the egg's just there, okay? Just accept it!"), but it's still a solid film.

That's whats the problem. It isn't a good sequel to a movie that made history and one that is a rollercoaster ride, because A3 is neither of it. They come up with the stupid egg explanation (did i say explanation, what explanation? its just there), they kill off all the characters we liked in Aliens and give us a bunch of bold criminals we don't get to know very well. The dog creature (bull creature) cant hold a candle to the previous Aliens and this was the movie where it started to look fleshy. It lacked suspense (Alien) and action(Aliens), which were two key elements in the Previous installments. It didn't expended the universe or to make it short, it did nothing for the Alien series but to give it a piss weak finale with bad effects.

It wouldn't have had a sequel even if it was successful. Not every successful film gets a sequel. Citizen Kane? Casablanca?

How do you know that? Even almost 30 years later you still hear about a possible sequel here and there and in the bonus material of the blu ray they talk about the fail of the movie and therefore Ridley never got the chance to expand the Blade Runner universe or Deckards story, which i personally would have loved to see.

Depends on its budget. It only made 57 million, total.

Predator 2 never had a 50 mil budget. I guess it was around 20 - 25 mil given that the first movie wasn't all that successfull either. And that's what it looks like as well.

Yet you can definitively say Predator 2 is better. Riight.

Just like you saying A3 blows P2 out of the water?
If so, the yes i can.

Obviously not, because I'm not approaching this as an Alien fan. I'm approaching this as someone watching two movies. You're the one coming at it from a fanboy perspective.

I'm not either. I didn't liked A3 wayyy before i even knew Predator 2 even existed and i said its a bad sequel back then, Has nothing to do with me being a Predator fan, i just think Predator 2 is the better movie because it doesn't try to hide what it is, a 108 minute action romp that is fun to watch and expanded the Predator universe by a long shot. It gives you everything that one would expect from a sequel to Predator, more creature, more action, suspense, gore elements and a strong male lead character.
You said it yourself, its one hell of a fun ride, something that i cant say about A3, this was supposed to be the last installment of something very special and they come up with this lame, uneven plot hole shit.
If you think its a good sequel and you can enjoy it everything is fine and dandy, but it really isn't. I wish it was but it really isn't.

Harrigan, Keyes, Leona and Hudson-clone. Four characters. Of all the drug-lords, commuter, and random lackeys in the film, which number well over Alien 3's cast.

Oh, and Garber.

The difference is those character were written to be victims, nothing more. Did we get to know the colonists in Aliens very well? no, because they are just a set up to get the story rolling.

In A3 we have these characters and were are stuck with them in an isolated place, we are going to spend time with them no matter what.
That's something i don't like about Aliens either, we don't get to know the whole group of soldiers, hell, there is this guy that is dead on the ground and hicks turns him around to see his face just after the explosion in the hive and i still don't know who the f**k that is. if i remember correctly he doesn't even say a word and that's something that's just shoddy.

But everyone remembers him, and he played the part well.

Everyone remembers King Willi. It still isn't a sign for tremendous acting.

Johnny your taste in films is a laughable at best. Predadtor 2 had terrible characters,

Yes, Predadtor 2 had terribl.. wait, what is Predadtor 2 again?

[SM]

That's something i don't like about Aliens either, we don't get to know the whole group of soldiers, hell, there is this guy that is dead on the ground and hicks turns him around to see his face just after the explosion in the hive and i still don't know who the f**k that is. if i remember correctly he doesn't even say a word and that's something that's just shoddy.

Rubbish.  Focusing on Wierzbowski is a waste of time.  Same with Crowe.  How many films waste time developing minor background characters?  We get enough of a sense of loss within the marine ranks with Apone, Dietrich, Frost and Drake.  And none of them are developed either  - but they have enough dialogue to make them at least slightly memorable.  And as practically invisible as Wierzbowski was - he still had an odd name and gained his own fan site.

Morse is the same in Alien3 - but he has something of an arc at least.  A long with Aaron and Dillon.

Except that Ripley never said that.

"Pull your team out Gorman."  Same thing.