How is AVP-R "going back to the roots"?

[Ballzanya]

Or unknown horribly grotesque process we never ever ever learn about leading to egg morphing would be more horrifying than watching the single biggest spiked dildo up the ass of the Alien franchise barfing babies down people's throats.

yeah good point. It would be better to not ever have vomiting and if egg morphing was used again, it should remain a mystery as to how it is initiated, therefore bullshit reasons can't be retroactively inserted into the first films events.

[Gates]

Or unknown horribly grotesque process we never ever ever learn about leading to egg morphing

For fans with unfailing loyalty, yes...but you and I both know that the audiences would demand an explanation at some point in subsequent sequels...

would be more horrifying than watching the single biggest spiked dildo up the ass of the Alien franchise barfing babies down people's throats.

Agreed 100%...

[Xenomorphine]

'ken oath.  There are limits to fence sitting.

Ripley even says to Lambert (though it was ultimately cut) that the reason she wanted to proceed with Dallas' plan rather than abandoning the ship was the chance that Dallas could be alive.  If there was a chance to save Lambert - Ripley would've done it.

That still relies on her knowing Lambert was dead, instead of presuming.

All we know was that the woman was bleeding and apparently held up on something. The human body can withstand amazing levels of mutilation before it physically gives out.

Ripley saw what she thought must be a dead Lambert.

She did not necessarily see one, even if the chances of it might have been high.

As ever, there was nothing 100% about the scene. We see Ripley's reaction being to simply recoil. She assumes Lambert is dead. She might even be right. There's just no proof of it on screen.

Heck, let's say Lambert had half her intestines pulled out of her vagina, was missing a lower jaw and had all the skin from her face peeled away. That's no guarantee of death, but I'm sure if that's what Ripley saw, she would have thought it was - even if Lambert might be in shock and comatose.

I know I wouldn't be checking for a pulse on something as messed up as that.

It's all about wiggle room. Was there enough for Lambert to potentially be gestating the same thing inside as Dallas was? Yeah. Is it likely? Probably not. But 'probably' doesn't matter when it comes to crafting future stories.

And if we take Brett into consideration, Lambert need not have even needed to survive the process.

[The Chibi Kiriyama]

Scott claims Ripley had incentive to destroy the Nostromo because Lambert was harboring one within and there would soon be more. God knows how she would know something like this just from seeing Lambert mutilated, but...hmm. Well, it does lead to the question of "what Ripley exactly saw," but that's up in the air. We just know she apparently no longer had pants, was dripping blood, and sported some toe re-arrangement via the Alien's tender touch.

Regardless, we have an answer. Ultimately, it's not even needed. We could just say Ripley thought it was a good idea to kill the immediate threat, and got far away from the explosion she figured would do just that as per Lambert's suggestion. The details of whether Lambert was implanted, egg morphed, comatose, or just vanilla variety dead are made moot by the giant technicolor explosion we see.

[RoaryUK]

Then you haven't read the old thread enough. And being that Lambert is well and truly dead, I doubt it used her to reproduce. So can we please stop trying to retcon Alien for this shitty idea and move on to more pressing matters, like the colour of Wolf's crotch?

The Ox was dead in Alien 3. Alien's don't necessarily need live hosts to be incubated. That being said, it's never shown clearly whether Lambert's dead or not, she could be unconscious for all we know.

The Ox may have been dead when we see it though its not easy to tell, but it must have been alive long enough for the chestburster to develope otherwise Alien 3 would be contradicting itself....case in point, Ripley sacrifised herself because she believed, though obviously didnt know, the Queen inside her couldn't be if she were to die.  A theory that derived from and became all the more significant in ALIENS, as Ripley realises the creatures dont always killm and that Newt is being kept alive for a reason.  

[The Chibi Kiriyama]

The Ox may have been dead when we see it though its not easy to tell, but it must have been alive long enough for the chestburster to develope otherwise Alien 3 would be contradicting itself....case in point, Ripley sacrifised herself because she believed, though obviously didnt know, the Queen inside her couldn't be if she were to die. A theory that derived from and became all the more significant in ALIENS, as Ripley realises the creatures dont always killm and that Newt is being kept alive for a reason.

I don't see why Ripley killing herself is significant to the events of Alien: Resurrection in the way you seem to be insinuating. She thought she was destroying it because it was vulnerable. They cloned it in Resurrection, but that doesn't have anything to do with it being a Queen so much as simply getting a Ripley clone that had an Alien in her. Maybe that's not what you're saying, but it sort of sounds like it. Just to clarify.

As for why the Alien of the third film didn't kill her? All we know was that it was because it couldn't risk harming the Queen within her. Perhaps it is biologically predisposed to avoid any sort of trauma to the host of a Queen to ensure the potential of the species' survival. That doesn't necessarily mean it couldn't kill her because the Queen and host's lives were tethered to one another.

Furthermore, I don't see how Newt or any other living soul who has been captured for implantation relates to this. I don't think we can assume the ox was dead when the facehugger implanted it. All we know is that it died, and a super-facehugger was found nearby. If we go by what previous films have shown, the ox could have been implanted and then died shortly thereafter.

[RoaryUK]

Just a thought but, I'd love to be able to see the 3 hour version of ALIEN.  I've no doubt it still exists and I'm equally curious as to wether the Strauss Bros would have had access to it, not so much for continuity but to get ideas from, because so many of us know so much was filmed and never shown.  I don't ever want to go back to the Space Jockey theories, but I do want to know what would have happened to Dallas & Brett before Ripley flamed them, and I'm glad the makers of the new movie are brave enough to tackle it. The egg morphing scene was always going to be debatable no matter how its explained, I know myself having written an Alien 5 to tie up the loose ends, but having gone through this thread and reading Colin's comments I'm feeling a lot easier about seeing something new.    

 

[RoaryUK]

The Ox may have been dead when we see it though its not easy to tell, but it must have been alive long enough for the chestburster to develope otherwise Alien 3 would be contradicting itself....case in point, Ripley sacrifised herself because she believed, though obviously didnt know, the Queen inside her couldn't be if she were to die. A theory that derived from and became all the more significant in ALIENS, as Ripley realises the creatures dont always killm and that Newt is being kept alive for a reason.

I don't see why Ripley killing herself is significant to the events of Alien: Resurrection in the way you seem to be insinuating. She thought she was destroying it because it was vulnerable. They cloned it in Resurrection, but that doesn't have anything to do with it being a Queen so much as simply getting a Ripley clone that had an Alien in her. Maybe that's not what you're saying, but it sort of sounds like it. Just to clarify.

I never said Ripley killing herself was significant to A:R, how could it be when she sacrifices herself to stop the Company getting the alien and so end any possibility of A:R happening.  What I'm saying is it's significant to ALIENS because this is when Ripley realises the aliens victims are not being killed but taken to be impregnated, deliberately kept alive so that the process can be complete and how she was able to save Newt.  This obviously translates to Ripley's reasoning in Alien 3 in that, if she sacrifices herself before the Queen is born, then it will perish with her.  Wether it's actually so is open to debate, but note Ripley's first choice was to ask Dillon to kill her, so for me that suggests she believed her death would also be the end of the Queen. 

As for why the Alien of the third film didn't kill her? All we know was that it was because it couldn't risk harming the Queen within her. Perhaps it is biologically predisposed to avoid any sort of trauma to the host of a Queen to ensure the potential of the species' survival. That doesn't necessarily mean it couldn't kill her because the Queen and host's lives were tethered to one another.Don't think this was directed at me but I actually agree anyway.

Not sure is this was actually directed at me as I never mentioned it, in fact I totally agree.

Furthermore, I don't see how Newt or any other living soul who has been captured for implantation relates to this. I don't think we can assume the ox was dead when the facehugger implanted it. All we know is that it died, and a super-facehugger was found nearby. If we go by what previous films have shown, the ox could have been implanted and then died shortly thereafter.

Same again here as far as the ox is concerned, I just think it was badly executed and possibly why Fincher decided to remove the whole scene, although I think you should bare in mind the SuperFace Hugger is still reguarded as canon, but I think it's about time it wasn't.  Have something cable of laying 2 embyo's, one of them being a Queen, always made a lot of sense to me. 

[The Chibi Kiriyama]

Ripley also believed that the Aliens were not indigenous to LV-426.

INSURANCE MAN
                           (to ECA Rep)
                    Are there any species like this
                    'hostile organism' on LV-426?

                                   ECA REP
                    No.  It's a rock.  No indigenous
                    life larger than a simple virus.

        Ripley grits her teeth in frustration.

                                   RIPLEY
                    I told you, it wasn't indigenous.
                    There was an alien spacecraft there.
                    A derelict ship.  We homed on its
                    beacon...

So is that a flaw on Cameron's part? How could she make such a statement straight off of the bat with all the confusion in Alien as to the origin of the eggs that goes unresolved in the chaos of leaving the planet ASAP and dealing with the creature soon after? It's not simply Fincher who has made Ripley blurt out an assumption, especially one she wouldn't be clear on given anything we've seen with her up until Alien3. The only thing she's seen is that full body immolation kills both Alien and host alike. She might have assumed that having Dillon kill her would have put a stop to it, but that's an assumption based off of nothing we've seen in the films. Even that may not have stopped the Queen chestburster from coming out.

[RoaryUK]

Ripley also believed that the Aliens were not indigenous to LV-426.

INSURANCE MAN
                           (to ECA Rep)
                    Are there any species like this
                    'hostile organism' on LV-426?

                                   ECA REP
                    No.  It's a rock.  No indigenous
                    life larger than a simple virus.

        Ripley grits her teeth in frustration.

                                   RIPLEY
                    I told you, it wasn't indigenous.
                    There was an alien spacecraft there.
                    A derelict ship.  We homed on its
                    beacon...

So is that a flaw on Cameron's part? How could she make such a statement straight off of the bat with all the confusion in Alien as to the origin of the eggs that goes unresolved in the chaos of leaving the planet ASAP and dealing with the creature soon after? It's not simply Fincher who has made Ripley blurt out an assumption, especially one she wouldn't be clear on given anything we've seen with her up until Alien3. The only thing she's seen is that full body immolation kills both Alien and host alike. She might have assumed that having Dillon kill her would have put a stop to it, but that's an assumption based off of nothing we've seen in the films. Even that may not have stopped the Queen chestburster from coming out.

I don't think Cameron made a mistake but I see where your coming from.  Its always been assumed by Ridley Scott the ship was not from there, he had the idea it would somehow be revealed the Space Jockeys had been transporting the eggs in some kind of "bomber" space craft and that they were in fact hostile....but the studio was against it and wanted the mystery left alone.   As for Ripley she assumed it based on footage that supposedly was filmed where the crew discuss that very possibility, certainly thats the only reason I can give.  As for the other assumption you mention about Alien 3, I'm just guessing like everyone else that Ripley sees the cocoon in ALIENS, that the Colonists appear to be kept in restraint (and therefore alive), and by the time of Alien 3 has the idea if she kills herself then she will also kill the undeveloped Queen.  You're right, we haven't actually seen anything concrete but I never said we had, I said what she DID see and that she made a logical assumption from there, that the Alien "possibly" needs the host alive in order for the embryo to grow.     

[Dr. Wren]

I'm guessing it's going back to the roots in the sense of style.

[RoaryUK]

I'm guessing it's going back to the roots in the sense of style.

Personally I don't think they're really going back to anything and just making it up as they go along.  Certainly the style can be nothing like anything we've seen before because its in a town setting.  The impression I get, from reading Colin's comments on this very thread, is that the "roots" they speak of is based on a combination of 2 things,  That which we haven't seen but know exists, such as the fact there are 2 creatues in Alien 3 (A drone and a Queen) yet we only ever see one face hugger, and also what we have seen partially but dont know how or why, such as the Dallas/Brett cocoon sequence which, reguardless of wether you view it as canon (which is the one area I disagree with Colin), it is an important issue non-the-less and could make or break AvP-R because of the possible repercussions.       

[man]

Just out of curiosity, how does this look like it's "going back to the roots"? This is the phrase we've heard used the most to describe this film, from everyone from the Bros. Strause, (repeatedly & extensively), to Tom Rothman, (head of Fox), to various cast & crew on the film, ETC. HOWEVER, nothing in the movie even look remotely like the original films;l in fact, I think it's safe to say AVP-R is going further from "the roots," than ever before:

-Characters. Original films, "Alien/Aliens/Predator/Predator 2," all had ADULT characters with unique professions/character arcs, involving motivations, and were played by, with the exception of Predator, talented actors. AVP-R has a bunch of Colorado hicks in a hick town who, instead of piloting deep-space ore refineries, deliver pizza

-Story. The original films all has original, classic stories of suspense and horror. Even the first AVP had a better plot than this.  AVP-R seems to have no coherent narrative, and amounts to a bunch of unrelated incidents of people running around being attacked by aliens/predators in their hick town.

-Locations. All of the previous Alien/Predator films had visually stimulating and detailed, well-conceived locations. Nostromo, Hadley's Hope, Fury 161, the Auriga, South American jungle, war-torn 1997 LA, Antarctica..now an unbelievably bland Colorado town, (which, like most productions shot in Canada, is bland as only a Canada-based production can be), and is poorly designed, shot and edited, from everything we've seen so far, (which is more than enough).

-Themes. The Alien films all were more than met the eye, (especially the first two), and dealt with themes of sexuality, corporate maleficence, family, the nature of man, ETC. Even the first two Predator's had government conspiracy angles, making our "protectors," just as dangerous to the heroes as the Predator itself. AVP-R is obviously absent of all this more complex layering and metaphor in exchange for BAS-ASS chaotic gore and teenagers waggling their boobies at each other, (and possibly, the aliens)

Subtlety- The original films all had a fair amount of physiological horror and Lovecraftian unease. Alien and Aliens weren't gory at all; they established how destructive the creatures were, then let your mind fill in the blanks. AVP-R, well..does not. I'm very impressed with the CGI gore, though. Oh wait, no I'm not. 
 
-The cast and crew of the first Alien films were top-notch people who loved the craft and art of film, and who had genuinely interesting things to say in their work. Predator 1/2 also had the benefit of Stan Winston, Alan Silvestri, great cinematography, ETC. AVP-R has a bunch of 3rd and 4th rate actors who've been in a couple of 2nd-tier TV shows, a guy from the OC, the screenwriter of "Shaft," the composer of "Fast and the Furious 3," and two-first time directors who aspire to be the guy that did "300." Oy.

-The creatures themselves. The Original Alien/predator films obviously defined how aliens and predators looked and behaved. AVP-R gives us the worst/cheapest-looking aliens ever, a Predator that's anorexic and doesn't even begin to have the character and charisma that Kevin Peter Hall endowed it with, and a PredAlien that looks like something from a d-level parody of "Alien." The creatures looked better 30 years ago.

Overall, I don't see how AVP-R is closer to the roots. When they Strausi say this, I think they mean that after ONE, (count it, ONE), PG-13 film, they're going back to being rated-R, (which in this day and age, seems to mean excessive gore and swearing instead of a plot or actual horror).  And to be perfectly honest, after watching those Reelz.com interviews with the Strausi, I don't think they know what made Alien or Predator appealing in the first place. 

Is this just me...?

i beleive that they r going back 2 the roots because they r giving the original sound e fects to the aliens and making the predators much more life like other than AVP

[Xenomorphine]

Sound effects do not 'the roots' make...

[gases]

what could they do to go back to the roots, other than what a new setting would bring. (They are stuck with what they got)
This is excluding peoples bullshit complaints about height.