The Rage War: A three part Alien / Predator epic by Tim Lebbon

[Corporal Hicks]

Many of Lebbon's ideas felt corny and rather fantastical for an AVP story; mind-controlled humans driven to commit terrorist acts against their will, a mad woman who wants to rule the galaxy, and a Faze that is rather conveniently found that upgrades all tech for the Rage free-of-charge (just to give the antagonists their technological superiority in the plot).  Also, as I said earlier, there are a lot of continuity and logical discrepancies in this story that make those of previous films look like child's play so that didn't help my impression either.

I don't particularly want to go through your points one by one as you've made your mind up but I really don't think it's deserving of leaving these comments just out there...I'm still 20 pages off finishing but the Faze is doing it "free-of-charge", it is

Spoiler

helping them to manipulate the Rage into crippling humanity, to suit its creator's agenda.

[close]

I thought people hated the idea of Predators teaming with humans, hence the hate for the 1st AVP movie yet the publisher decided an entire trilogy constituting a friendship would be a good idea? 

It wasn't liked because it was undeserved. Ohh, lookie, Lex accidently killed an Alien and that earned her Scar's respect. It was forced in the film. It wasn't in the comic. It wasn't in Rage War.

Also, the Aliens are supposed to be pure killing machines unable to be controlled yet even that simple fact about their nature was abandoned to fit the "Rage" story.

The attempts to do so are a recurring theme. The fact that someone was able to is what helps elevate the threat of the Rage. And it wasn't some just willy-nilly control, it was alien technology, aliens that are likely

Spoiler

the very creators of the Aliens themselves.

[close]

I also noticed that there plenty of other continuity mistakes as well.  In the first Alien movie, the crew don't use guns for fear that the acid blood will eat through the ship's hull yet the characters in Armageddon have no problem killing Aliens on a ship smaller than the Nostromo. 

It's less of an issue when the characters have their own spacesuits and they do actually abandon the ship due to the acid damage.

Furthermore, the Marines in the story are quite reliant on using thermal imaging when fighting the Aliens when the 2nd film made it quite clear that they don't show up on thermal at all (look at Dietrich's death).

This maybe my memory but I don't recall them being overly reliant on using thermals against the Aliens so I'll have to give you this one.

I think Lebbon fails to capture the essence of the "Yautja" (or the xenomorphs)

They're not Yautja. They're Predators. I really hate Lebbon used that name.

[The Alien Predator]

I think Lebbon fails to capture the essence of the "Yautja" (or the xenomorphs)

Lebbon's Yautja are not the same as Perry's Yautja. And I think he captured their essence perfectly, they still have an honour system and aren't all Hish like.

It's something constantly stressed in the books that they've got rules similar to how Perry's have strict rules too.

In the first book, they use nanovibronic blades (remember nanovibronic disks from AvP Extinction?), and Hashori commits torture upon Liliya for her group's attacks on Yautja ("Torture Ritual" from Extinction again? This happened to Dr. Kadinsky.)

I liked that Lebbon added some of these small nods that aren't present in most other Predator lore, he brought back some concepts from an old game. I don't know if anyone else noticed those.

[predxeno]

Many of Lebbon's ideas felt corny and rather fantastical for an AVP story; mind-controlled humans driven to commit terrorist acts against their will, a mad woman who wants to rule the galaxy, and a Faze that is rather conveniently found that upgrades all tech for the Rage free-of-charge (just to give the antagonists their technological superiority in the plot).  Also, as I said earlier, there are a lot of continuity and logical discrepancies in this story that make those of previous films look like child's play so that didn't help my impression either.

I don't particularly want to go through your points one by one as you've made your mind up but I really don't think it's deserving of leaving these comments just out there...I'm still 20 pages off finishing but the Faze is doing it "free-of-charge", it is

Spoiler

helping them to manipulate the Rage into crippling humanity, to suit its creator's agenda.

[close]

Yes, I know, however this isn't actually

Spoiler

proven in the story, only theorized.

[close]

It's like in the Female War novelization where the Aliens are theorized by the main characters to be bio-weapons rather than natural organisms; it's an interesting idea however since nothing ever became of that idea, it is pretty much meaningless in the context of the plot.  I felt the ending would have been much more effective had the Faze played a more proactive role in the story than a wandering object, but in the end

Spoiler

the Rage were still the primary baddies and the ending didn't reflect the Faze's intentions at all, rather only an unfortunate series of circumstances.

[close]

The attempts to do so are a recurring theme. The fact that someone was able to is what helps elevate the threat of the Rage. And it wasn't some just willy-nilly control, it was alien technology, aliens that are likely

Spoiler

the very creators of the Aliens themselves.

[close]

I don't really give that much credence, rumors of what you hid in that spoiler tag were prevalent in Aliens: Steel Egg and even then nothing was actually proven therefore it didn't really matter at all.

It's less of an issue when the characters have their own spacesuits and they do actually abandon the ship due to the acid damage.

That's somewhat a fair point however when you're saving the galaxy, a crippled car is definitely a good way to kill everyone. 

In the first book, they use nanovibronic blades (remember nanovibronic disks from AvP Extinction?), and Hashori commits torture upon Liliya for her group's attacks on Yautja ("Torture Ritual" from Extinction again? This happened to Dr. Kadinsky.)

I liked that Lebbon added some of these small nods that aren't present in most other Predator lore, he brought back some concepts from an old game. I don't know if anyone else noticed those.

You're assuming that this is all by design, of course, rather than coincidence as is so often the case.

[The Alien Predator]

Fair enough about the torture thing maybe being coincidental to the Torture Ritual.

But how is "Nanovibronic" coincidental? It's a word only seen in AvP Extinction. So Lebbon probably researched Predators a bit and came across that word and added it. The Nanovibronc Disk is an upgrade for the Disk Master in Extinction. In Incursion, the Yautja used "Nanovibronic blades", it's been a while since I read the book but I think it referred to wrist blades and spear tips as well.

[SM]

Maybe Tim played AvP: Evolution

[Corporal Hicks]

Yes, I know, however this isn't actually

Spoiler

proven in the story, only theorized.

[close]

It's like in the Female War novelization where the Aliens are theorized by the main characters to be bio-weapons rather than natural organisms; it's an interesting idea however since nothing ever became of that idea, it is pretty much meaningless in the context of the plot.  I felt the ending would have been much more effective had the Faze played a more proactive role in the story than a wandering object, but in the end

Spoiler

the Rage were still the primary baddies and the ending didn't reflect the Faze's intentions at all, rather only an unfortunate series of circumstances.

[close]

Granted - it's only a theory but it's given a lot of credence within the story. As for the ending, again, I disagree -

Spoiler

if we take that theory at face value, that the Faze/Drukathi want to de-stabilize humanity, mission is well and truly accomplished. That is exactly what the end results in.

[close]

I don't really give that much credence, rumors of what you hid in that spoiler tag were prevalent in Aliens: Steel Egg and even then nothing was actually proven therefore it didn't really matter at all.

Of course it matters. It goes to further substantiate why the Faze would be able to provide the means to control the Aliens. I don't recall that being an issue in Steel Egg.

Again, supposition on my part, but with it seeming to be where Covenant and Ridley is going it seems quite likely that it was the intent the Jockeys are the Drukathi and they created the Aliens. I'll be sure to ask Tim Lebbon about it when we catch up.

That's somewhat a fair point however when you're saving the galaxy, a crippled car is definitely a good way to kill everyone. 

Of course you don't want a broken spaceship but needs must. They don't really have any other method to save themselves.

[happypred]

I think Lebbon fails to capture the essence of the "Yautja" (or the xenomorphs)

In the first book, they use nanovibronic blades (remember nanovibronic disks from AvP Extinction?)

Where is this mentioned in Incursion? I read Incursion...but don't recall that

[predxeno]

Yes, I know, however this isn't actually

Spoiler

proven in the story, only theorized.

[close]

It's like in the Female War novelization where the Aliens are theorized by the main characters to be bio-weapons rather than natural organisms; it's an interesting idea however since nothing ever became of that idea, it is pretty much meaningless in the context of the plot.  I felt the ending would have been much more effective had the Faze played a more proactive role in the story than a wandering object, but in the end

Spoiler

the Rage were still the primary baddies and the ending didn't reflect the Faze's intentions at all, rather only an unfortunate series of circumstances.

[close]

Granted - it's only a theory but it's given a lot of credence within the story. As for the ending, again, I disagree -

Spoiler

if we take that theory at face value, that the Faze/Drukathi want to de-stabilize humanity, mission is well and truly accomplished. That is exactly what the end results in.

[close]

I don't really give that much credence, rumors of what you hid in that spoiler tag were prevalent in Aliens: Steel Egg and even then nothing was actually proven therefore it didn't really matter at all.

Of course it matters. It goes to further substantiate why the Faze would be able to provide the means to control the Aliens. I don't recall that being an issue in Steel Egg.

Again, supposition on my part, but with it seeming to be where Covenant and Ridley is going it seems quite likely that it was the intent the Jockeys are the Drukathi and they created the Aliens. I'll be sure to ask Tim Lebbon about it when we catch up.

Yeah, see if you can find out if the Drukathi are actually the Engineers, I didn't think they were when I read the books tho I had some suspicions.  As for the ending...

Spoiler

It just wasn't done that well, the Drukathi weren't mentioned that much to make the payout at the end worth it.  As I said before, the Rage were still the primary baddies (whose goals are nothing like the Drukathi's) and the whole twist was the result of nothing more than an embarrassing lack of communication/understanding on the characters' part than a legitimate arc/plan to de-evolve the human race.

[close]

[The Alien Predator]

I think Lebbon fails to capture the essence of the "Yautja" (or the xenomorphs)

In the first book, they use nanovibronic blades (remember nanovibronic disks from AvP Extinction?)

Where is this mentioned in Incursion? I read Incursion...but don't recall that

It's been almost a year since I read it, but I recall it during some of Mains' confrontations with them in the habitat.

Yes, I know, however this isn't actually

Spoiler

proven in the story, only theorized.

[close]

It's like in the Female War novelization where the Aliens are theorized by the main characters to be bio-weapons rather than natural organisms; it's an interesting idea however since nothing ever became of that idea, it is pretty much meaningless in the context of the plot.  I felt the ending would have been much more effective had the Faze played a more proactive role in the story than a wandering object, but in the end

Spoiler

the Rage were still the primary baddies and the ending didn't reflect the Faze's intentions at all, rather only an unfortunate series of circumstances.

[close]

Granted - it's only a theory but it's given a lot of credence within the story. As for the ending, again, I disagree -

Spoiler

if we take that theory at face value, that the Faze/Drukathi want to de-stabilize humanity, mission is well and truly accomplished. That is exactly what the end results in.

[close]

I don't really give that much credence, rumors of what you hid in that spoiler tag were prevalent in Aliens: Steel Egg and even then nothing was actually proven therefore it didn't really matter at all.

Of course it matters. It goes to further substantiate why the Faze would be able to provide the means to control the Aliens. I don't recall that being an issue in Steel Egg.

Again, supposition on my part, but with it seeming to be where Covenant and Ridley is going it seems quite likely that it was the intent the Jockeys are the Drukathi and they created the Aliens. I'll be sure to ask Tim Lebbon about it when we catch up.

That's somewhat a fair point however when you're saving the galaxy, a crippled car is definitely a good way to kill everyone. 

Of course you don't want a broken spaceship but needs must. They don't really have any other method to save themselves.

Hicks, a thought occurred to me.

What if "Drukathi" is the Predator name for this race? Like how we call the Predators "Yautja."

In the interview, could you ask Tim for the backstory on why humans call them this? I know he said he picked the name because he liked it. (And he did a little nod on that by making Elder Kalakta say to Palant "I've always liked that name" after she said he was an "honourable Yautja.")

I just want to hear if Tim has thought up an in-universe reason for it. Maybe it's a word we kept hearing when spying on their communications and stuck to it, but butchered the pronunciation or something.

Maybe it's a name we came up with, while studying their language, we just mixed and mashed a few of their words or something. Maybe some scientist just randomly said that name in a drunken stupor and everyone stuck to it, I don't know! XD

[predxeno]

In the original EU, the Predators called themselves Yautja, Lennon kept the name exclusively for the fan popularity attached to it, a move that backfired since his Predators act nothing like the original Yautja.  Lebbon isn't the first to do this, the character bios of the Black Super Predators from the Predators film also referred to them as Yautja despite the fact that the Predators in question were Black Super Predators.

[Corporal Hicks]

Spoiler

It just wasn't done that well, the Drukathi weren't mentioned that much to make the payout at the end worth it.  As I said before, the Rage were still the primary baddies (whose goals are nothing like the Drukathi's) and the whole twist was the result of nothing more than an embarrassing lack of communication/understanding on the characters' part than a legitimate arc/plan to de-evolve the human race.

[close]

Again, we're not on the same page here.

Spoiler

The Drukathi were made a rather big deal of. While we didn't find out that much about them (something I hope will change), Armegeddon presents the idea that they are manipulating the events as being really likely. In fact, it makes a pretty big deal out of it when it comes to character motivations later on.

The shutting down of the dropholes wasn't an "embarrassing lack of communication", it was the result of system wide nuclear detonations taking out communications. It was an understandable call. Granted, that aspect was a little flukey as far as the Faze and Drukathi were concerned, but mankind was still in a bad place due to the actions of the Rage up until that point anyway. The C&C of the military was taken out, the Aliens were no longer under any control, many dropholes taken out, many worlds taken over by the Aliens, shipborn Rage left, blah, blah.

Either way, the Drukathi's manipulation succeeded. Mankind was severely crippled. I don't know why Lebbon did the drophole shutdown though. Feels like the 2nd retconning of the EU back to an Alien/s/3-esque state of the universe.

[close]

In the interview, could you ask Tim for the backstory on why humans call them this? I know he said he picked the name because he liked it. (And he did a little nod on that by making Elder Kalakta say to Palant "I've always liked that name" after she said he was an "honourable Yautja.")

I just want to hear if Tim has thought up an in-universe reason for it. Maybe it's a word we kept hearing when spying on their communications and stuck to it, but butchered the pronunciation or something.

As PZ says, nothing more than it sounded cool. And as PZ said, Lebbon's Yautja are not Perry's which is why I'm not a fan of that being done. People like PZ and happypred are going to expect Perry's Predators.

[The Alien Predator]

Lebbon's Predators have a lot more in common with Perry's Yautja than the Hish do.

For instance:

They're both honourable and follow rules. Elder Kalakta's

Spoiler

fight towards the end shows how the younger Predators glanced his way, looking if he noticed their skills. A marine points out that no one huddled around to protect him because they wouldn't "denigrate" him like that.

[close]

Kalakta seemed happy to be called "honourable" by Palant. A Hish wouldn't give a crap.

Also, Hashori proudly boasted that the reason humans fear them is because "they respect our warrior prowess." Clearly a very warrior oriented species like Perry's Yautja. She also says "only cowards and criminals hide", a nod to how Perry's Yautja try to cloak as little as possible.

And, just like Perry's Yautja, not all of Lebbon's Predators followed these rules. Perry's Yautja were gonna target a family including kids and a pet until Dachande stops them.

Lebbon's Yautja were gonna target a man and his kids until a Colonial Marine kills it right in the first chapter of Incursion.

The only differences from Perry's ones are the fact that males and females are identical. And that sometimes, the Predators take captives when targeting populated areas, but no one knows why they take captives.

Could it be for slavery? Could it be for experimentation? Or could it be to drop them on hunting reserves?

Also, they're willing to work with humans, like how Dachande was working with Machiko Noguchi to fight the Aliens.

Lebbon does blend their technological advancement by combining it with Yautja (they make their own stuff) and Hish (they reverse engineer other civilization's stuff.)

Also the "Super Predators" are just another clan of Yautja. There's nothing stopping them from being one. I mean, Predators aren't a unified race to begin with, so they'd have many different clans and cultures.

Like Lebbon's ones, there's different languages and even different dialects between clans. It's not like learning Klingon and suddenly you can talk to every Klingon out there. It's a lot like learning English and then only being able to speak with English speaking humans.

As PZ says, nothing more than it sounded cool. And as PZ said, Lebbon's Yautja are not Perry's which is why I'm not a fan of that being done. People like PZ and happypred are going to expect Perry's Predators.

I suppose you're right. Don't forget about Rakai'Thwei as well. 

[Corporal Hicks]

You're not wrong, TAP. All fair points. They share some similarities, no doubt. But they aren't Perry's Yautja nor were they intended to be. There's room for all though. I think there's two interpretations of the Hish as well. Forever Midnight and Flesh and Blood's Hish are very different. F&B's Hish are probably my favourite EU interpretation of the Predator culture so far. 

[The Alien Predator]

You're not wrong, TAP. All fair points. They share some similarities, no doubt. But they aren't Perry's Yautja nor were they intended to be. There's room for all though. I think there's two interpretations of the Hish as well. Forever Midnight and Flesh and Blood's Hish are very different. F&B's Hish are probably my favourite EU interpretation of the Predator culture so far.

What are the differences between the two Hish versions? And what makes the F&B's ones your favourites? I remember reading some book summaries mentioning that a powerful family wanted to work with the Hish to eliminate some opposition. How does that go?

[predxeno]

Spoiler

It just wasn't done that well, the Drukathi weren't mentioned that much to make the payout at the end worth it.  As I said before, the Rage were still the primary baddies (whose goals are nothing like the Drukathi's) and the whole twist was the result of nothing more than an embarrassing lack of communication/understanding on the characters' part than a legitimate arc/plan to de-evolve the human race.

[close]

Again, we're not on the same page here.

Spoiler

The Drukathi were made a rather big deal of. While we didn't find out that much about them (something I hope will change), Armegeddon presents the idea that they are manipulating the events as being really likely. In fact, it makes a pretty big deal out of it when it comes to character motivations later on.

The shutting down of the dropholes wasn't an "embarrassing lack of communication", it was the result of system wide nuclear detonations taking out communications. It was an understandable call. Granted, that aspect was a little flukey as far as the Faze and Drukathi were concerned, but mankind was still in a bad place due to the actions of the Rage up until that point anyway. The C&C of the military was taken out, the Aliens were no longer under any control, many dropholes taken out, many worlds taken over by the Aliens, shipborn Rage left, blah, blah.

Either way, the Drukathi's manipulation succeeded. Mankind was severely crippled. I don't know why Lebbon did the drophole shutdown though. Feels like the 2nd to returning the EU to an Alien/s/3-esque state of the universe.

[close]

Yeah, I got the big deal with the Drukathi and everything; perhaps this is just my writing perspective but I felt that Lebbon should have devoted more time to the Drukathi than he actually did.  Reading the story, I thought the Faze would take on a more proactive role nearing the completion of its mission but instead it is still a servant to the Rage. 

It would have been more effective storytelling IMO if the Faze turned out to be some sort of EMP bomb and it detonated when nearing Earth (which the drop holes controls should have been placed) and destroyed all drop holes thus ruining things for both humans and Rage.  Perhaps this EMP blast could have crippled the Rage, allowing the humans to win, and demonstrated just how insignificant the Rage were to the Drukathi and it would have exemplified to a greater degree their manipulation.

Spoiler

Instead we got an ending where the ignorance of a select group of humans, even though they were well-intentioned as you said, led to the unnecessary downfall of mankind, hardly very climatic for a story (let alone a trilogy).

Btw, I'm glad you also felt the ending had a rather retro feel to it.

[close]