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Author Topic: Can we just forget about the Predator Hierarchy?  (Read 1225 times)

Jigsaw85
Jun 14, 2018, 11:32:59 PM
Topic on: Jun 14, 2018, 11:32:59 PM
Q
I mean what purpose does it serve? none of the films even use it. I don't know about you, but I'm sick to death of hearing about Young-Bloods, Blooded, Elites, Elders, Bad-Bloods and all that crap that the movies never bother to establish. the closest we ever got was AVP, where the supposed Young-Bloods (who are 100s of years old according to the director) become Blooded when they burn marks into their foreheads and masks. Wolf (the most incompetent Predator ever) is supposedly an Elite, but don't expect the movie to ever tell you that, just take the director's word for it because that's how story-telling works, right? Wolf DOESN'T even have the mark burned into his forehead. Not even the Leader at the end of Predator 2 had a mark on his head. You'd think he of all Predators would, right?

We have 5 Predator films with predators who all look the same, act the same, display the same level of  skill and strength and none of them have the blooded mark on their heads or masks, so are we supposed to assume that every predator outside of Wolf and the AVP leader is a noob? f**k that! Based on everything I've seen and heard about The Predator: this isn't just another hunt, Captured is on a mission to save his race, he lets himself get captured in order to get his gear back and then breaks out like a boss and kicks ass all over the place ....but according to the Predator Hierarchy (established by none of the films): he's just a pathetic novice? Sorry but no, I'm not gonna accept that a predator who displays such intelligence and skill is nothing but a rookie, especially one that's on such an important mission. Not to mention the fact that his buddies are negotiating with the humans for the future of their race. So now rookies are qualified to speak on behalf of the entire Predator race? are the predators from the first two movies rookies too? All these questions brought up because of a stupid mark that's not on their foreheads.  How about we go back to the good old days of Predator and Predator 2 and regard all Predators as equals? I mean, what's the point of this imaginary hierarchy other than giving sensitive predator fans an excuse whenever a predator loses? "He was just a young-blood, if Captured was an experienced Elite, he'd beat Upgrade without even breaking a sweat!" Can't wait for that inevitable post.


OpenMaw
Jun 14, 2018, 11:43:09 PM
Reply #1 on: Jun 14, 2018, 11:43:09 PM
Q
I've never bought into it myself. It's too Klingon, too ordered.

I prefer my Predators a little more fast and loose. They do this whole hunting thing for fun. That's part of what makes it both compelling and potentially scary. This thing coming after you is doing it because it thinks you're fun to murder. That's awesome.

As a kid I never called the "Lost Tribe" at the end of Predator 2 anything like a clan or a tribe. They were a hunting party. If you want to stick anything more onto it, City Hunter was up for his initiation into the brotherhood of bad asses, and the rest of the group were there as part of a ceremony that likely lasts for weeks or months. He had to find the worthy opponent in the city, stalk him, learn his ways, and draw him out.

Even the original AVP doesn't exactly touch upon this too much. Broken Tusk is the elder of the group, yes, and he is with a bunch of younger Predators, yes... But as far as the comic is concerned they might as well be akin to "the savage Indians" attacking a frontier town in an old western.



Scorpio
Jun 15, 2018, 12:10:28 AM
Reply #2 on: Jun 15, 2018, 12:10:28 AM
Q
This world is obsessed with ranks and titles, all of which are fake.  What's the first question many people ask?  What do you do?  IE:  Socio-economic status; income and social status, both which are part of a belief system.  They are not real.  Yes, money is not real, it is mostly just numbers in a computer created by financial institutions out of nothing, but people worship it as a god.  Rank and social status also are not real.  But it is people's obsession.

There is no hierarchy, sorry to break it to people but you are not above someone if you have higher 'social status' or more money.  Only in your mind.  And you are not below someone just because of their title/rank and wealth.

But back on topic, I don't pay much attention to it.  The first predator is a solo hunter, the tribal thing was introduced in Predator 2 and the comics and novels. 



Huggs
Jun 15, 2018, 02:06:25 AM
Reply #3 on: Jun 15, 2018, 02:06:25 AM
Q
I indeed do agree about the ranks. It makes for good reading in the novels though.

I just always figured there were 2 different types of em' out there. The more experienced and stronger ones are called "predators". While the ones that strayed into another's hunting territory or that made stupid mistakes with the prey were called "it",  "a freakin' alien", "a damn lizard" or simply "dead".  ;)


PredBabe
Jun 15, 2018, 03:51:32 AM
Reply #4 on: Jun 15, 2018, 03:51:32 AM
Q
I don’t think them having ranks is a bad concept. All civilizations have established some form of hierarchy and we know they are a civilized species so... yeah. Then you throw those who don’t want to play by the rules into the mix and things get even more interesting.

« Last Edit: Jun 15, 2018, 03:53:12 AM by PredBabe »

YTL_Hunter_H2
Jun 15, 2018, 03:55:46 AM
Reply #5 on: Jun 15, 2018, 03:55:46 AM
Q
I actually enjoy all of it. And predator 2 seems to solidify the hierarchy you're complaining about. There's far worse things happening with the franchise at the moment in film and your gripe is the established culture that fits and makes sense? Guess you're looking forward to spider preds and predators in camo as well.


skull-splitter
Jun 15, 2018, 04:45:46 AM
Reply #6 on: Jun 15, 2018, 04:45:46 AM
Q
I actually enjoy all of it. And predator 2 seems to solidify the hierarchy you're complaining about. There's far worse things happening with the franchise at the moment in film and your gripe is the established culture that fits and makes sense? Guess you're looking forward to spider preds and predators in camo as well.
Predator 2 had an elder, no ranks. It's tribal, not feodal.

Personally not a fan of the overspecified ranks and roles.
Orginally, the predator was described as a redneck on a hunt, eventually strapping humans to the hood of his pick-up truck and then just go home after the weekend.

Of course there is a little more to it, like needing a prey of a certain threat to make it interesting. But other than that, it's up to us.

It's mostly novels that bothered with it, the comics where more akin to how both the movies approached it.


whiterabbit
Jun 15, 2018, 06:18:47 AM
Reply #7 on: Jun 15, 2018, 06:18:47 AM
Q
But there is a predator hierarchy at least for one of the tribal groups. However there has to be more than one culture in predator lore. Least to mention that the Predator are an intergalactic race right? And all of that tech has to come from somewhere. Good predators that want to help humanity must exist.


skull-splitter
Jun 15, 2018, 07:41:37 AM
Reply #8 on: Jun 15, 2018, 07:41:37 AM
Q
One thing is, the infinite possibilities of different tribes. One very strict, one more tribal, one slightly primitive, one high tech etc.

But like Winston said on P2: it has to look like one but at the same time allow itself to be different and unique.

Straying too far from the original is as bad as repeating that classic jungle hunter over and over and over.


huntin8-t0n
Jun 15, 2018, 04:55:25 PM
Reply #9 on: Jun 15, 2018, 04:55:25 PM
Q
I don't really like the whole society that's considered universal by many, too.

I think the creature has much more potential. But yea, it makes it more human-like, easier to accept.

Also, hunting is seemingly an important part of their culture, but may not be the only thing. Narrowing them down to only one activity is just not thinking out of the box.

The whole idea of honor is so relative anyway.
I've never bought into it myself. It's too Klingon, too ordered.

I prefer my Predators a little more fast and loose. They do this whole hunting thing for fun. That's part of what makes it both compelling and potentially scary. This thing coming after you is doing it because it thinks you're fun to murder. That's awesome.

As a kid I never called the "Lost Tribe" at the end of Predator 2 anything like a clan or a tribe. They were a hunting party. If you want to stick anything more onto it, City Hunter was up for his initiation into the brotherhood of bad asses, and the rest of the group were there as part of a ceremony that likely lasts for weeks or months. He had to find the worthy opponent in the city, stalk him, learn his ways, and draw him out.

Even the original AVP doesn't exactly touch upon this too much. Broken Tusk is the elder of the group, yes, and he is with a bunch of younger Predators, yes... But as far as the comic is concerned they might as well be akin to "the savage Indians" attacking a frontier town in an old western.



In "Prey" though the whole society and its outlines are layed down. I like comics much more than books, I'd say.

About the lost hunters: I never thought about them like this, but I like your idea. I was vaguely about something: that city hunter was in fact Greyback's son or relative, and the hunters paying their respects to the elder were not because of rank or hierarchy, but personal sympathy for his loss.


PredBabe
Jun 16, 2018, 11:44:16 AM
Reply #10 on: Jun 16, 2018, 11:44:16 AM
Q
They seem like such a competitive and egotistical species that hierarchy amongst them only seems like common sense. Of course to each their own, I get where people don’t like to humanize a space alien that originated in a sci-if horror flick, but the fact that movies, books, and comics have either hinted or flat out depicted their society to be built on hierarchy only seems to make sense and natural given what we’ve seen from even the very first movie. They’ve mastered the art of designing and advancing their weapons and I highly doubt they are strictly used to hunt. There are likely wars amongst their own kind and maybe even other advanced space aliens.

I think we can all assume that there are different hunting groups/tribes who all have a general acceptance of laws/beliefs. Considering the fact that they are technologically advanced makes me assume that there are likely those amongst them who are like scientists or doctors. There’s probably even some who choose not to hunt to the extent others do.

« Last Edit: Jun 16, 2018, 12:25:10 PM by PredBabe »

skull-splitter
Jun 16, 2018, 02:11:14 PM
Reply #11 on: Jun 16, 2018, 02:11:14 PM
Q
Only some of the books did because they focused on the species and needed motivators we can relate to.

The comics took the same concept and generally just kept the mystery. Only minor additions where added. Some expansion is OK, but most fanpages take it a few notches too far in terms of specifying what their culture is like.


OpenMaw
Jun 16, 2018, 05:21:28 PM
Reply #12 on: Jun 16, 2018, 05:21:28 PM
Q
The problem is that the societal structure and honor and all that ends up homogenizing them.

AVP, the movie, actually did quite a bit of damage to the visual look of the Predators. They all had the same armor, even thousands of years in the past. They all basically dress the same with the exception of one or two armor pieces and maybe a different mask. It homogenized their species almost to a fault.

I can just imagine in the Anderson version of predator world little timmy predator being handed his wrist blades at the age of 4, running around making child versions of the Predator roars. "RRuargh... Ruuargh... Ruarrghhh!"

We're not here to see Predator plumbers or Predator firemen. That's the problem with it. We're here to see the Predator species' equivalent to Duck Dynasty or (insert name of a hunting show here.).

You can stretch that in certain ways. Bad Blood did, by giving us a Predator "cop" and a Predator pyschopath... And the key reason that works is A. It's very clearly one individual and not a retcon of the previous films, and two, because it acts a beautiful contrast to the previous two films. This one has none of those tenants that we observed. We can imagine the Bad Blood in Predator or Predator 2, murdering Anna and Leona and the kid, and not even batting an eye.

You can even hear the problem resonating in the story of the game Predator: Concrete Jungle where it basically took all the bits of stuff we saw in Predator, Predator 2, and especially AVP, draws them all together, and basically makes it universal for all Predators. "Strict clan loyalties" "Rules" "Has to prove himself again as an unblooded youngster."


Between the first two films we got things that were far less overtly said and far more powerful for it. You can pick up the personalities of the individual Predators.

Jungle Hunter is a true hunter. He's quiet. He waits for his opportunity to make the first kill. He takes them down methodically and one at a time. He's impressed when he finds a worthy adversary, and ultimately it is blind luck that Dutch actually beats him. That final hand to hand battle is not a demonstration of Predator "honor" at all. I don't know why it get's twisted that way. Predator is basically saying "Aw'right mate... You're about as tough as yer kind comes. So let's have a little duel in the swamp."

City Hunter is zealous. He's ready for a fight, eager to leap into the action and cut down groups in swaths. He recklessly takes down three groups that are heavily armed, drawing a lot of attention to his antics. He demonstrates cunning and ruthlessness when faced with a group that is organized against him. When he's gravely injured he makes an almost cowardly run to home.


There is no indication that they are strapped by "strict clan loyalties" "honor" or any of that nonsense, and thank the almighty spaghetti monster for that.


« Last Edit: Jun 16, 2018, 06:54:05 PM by OpenMaw »

The Old One
Jun 16, 2018, 06:27:54 PM
Reply #13 on: Jun 16, 2018, 06:27:54 PM
Q
Strict clan loyalties, unbreakable taboos, death and exile were all this one could expect.

I love how goofy that game is.


Wysps
Jun 16, 2018, 09:05:43 PM
Reply #14 on: Jun 16, 2018, 09:05:43 PM
Q
They seem like such a competitive and egotistical species that hierarchy amongst them only seems like common sense. Of course to each their own, I get where people don’t like to humanize a space alien that originated in a sci-if horror flick, but the fact that movies, books, and comics have either hinted or flat out depicted their society to be built on hierarchy only seems to make sense and natural given what we’ve seen from even the very first movie. They’ve mastered the art of designing and advancing their weapons and I highly doubt they are strictly used to hunt. There are likely wars amongst their own kind and maybe even other advanced space aliens.

Definitely with you there.  In my mind, Predators do come across as if they could be egotistical and competitive – if their psych is anywhere similar to humans, I’d think that would be their disposition :D It would seem that a hierarchy of sorts would be a natural progression for them as a civilization.

Technically, we haven’t really seen any credible portrayals of this in the comics/novels/movies.  I think we’ve been given glimpses of what could be based on certain individuals actions in the comics, and some of the novels have made mention of certain classes like the Enforcer or the Philosopher (it’s been a long time, so I don’t know if there was another word used to describe this one), but on a whole I think the fandom has taken these small ideas that were introduced to us and made them much bigger then what they really are in the lore.

The problem is that the societal structure and honor and all that ends up homogenizing them.

AVP, the movie, actually did quite a bit of damage to the visual look of the Predators. They all had the same armor, even thousands of years in the past. They all basically dress the same with the exception of one or two armor pieces and maybe a different mask. It homogenized their species almost to a fault.

I can just imagine in the Anderson version of predator world little timmy predator being handed his wrist blades at the age of 4, running around making child versions of the Predator roars. "RRuargh... Ruuargh... Ruarrghhh!"

We're not here to see Predator plumbers or Predator firemen. That's the problem with it. We're here to see the Predator species' equivalent to Duck Dynasty or (insert name of a hunting show here.).

You can stretch that in certain ways. Bad Blood did, by giving us a Predator "cop" and a Predator pyschopath... And the key reason that works is A. It's very clearly one individual and not a retcon of the previous films, and two, because it acts a beautiful contrast to the previous two films. This one has none of those tenants that we observed. We can imagine the Bad Blood in Predator or Predator 2, murdering Anna and Leona and the kid, and not even batting an eye.

You can even hear the problem resonating in the story of the game Predator: Concrete Jungle where it basically took all the bits of stuff we saw in Predator, Predator 2, and especially AVP, draws them all together, and basically makes it universal for all Predators. "Strict clan loyalties" "Rules" "Has to prove himself again as an unblooded youngster."

Between the first two films we got things that were far less overtly said and far more powerful for it. You can pick up the personalities of the individual Predators.

Jungle Hunter is a true hunter. He's quiet. He waits for his opportunity to make the first kill. He takes them down methodically and one at a time. He's impressed when he finds a worthy adversary, and ultimately it is blind luck that Dutch actually beats him. That final hand to hand battle is not a demonstration of Predator "honor" at all. I don't know why it get's twisted that way. Predator is basically saying "Aw'right mate... You're about as tough as yer kind comes. So let's have a little duel in the swamp."

City Hunter is zealous. He's ready for a fight, eager to leap into the action and cut down groups in swaths. He recklessly takes down three groups that are heavily armed, drawing a lot of attention to his antics. He demonstrates cunning and ruthlessness when faced with a group that is organized against him. When he's gravely injured he makes an almost cowardly run to home.

There is no indication that they are strapped by "strict clan loyalties" "honor" or any of that nonsense, and thank the almighty spaghetti monster for that.

I don't subscribe to the honor and clan loyalty either (well, not completely), but goodness I want something more than redneck Duck Dynasty predators :o That may have been the original concept, but I've definitely never gotten that vibe from any of the movies or media.


 

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