Studying the Engineers Civilization: Theories

Started by Immortan Jonesy, Mar 02, 2018, 04:34:34 PM

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Studying the Engineers Civilization: Theories (Read 26,301 times)

Immortan Jonesy

Immortan Jonesy

The content of this thread is half theory and half fan fiction (on an amateur level, I'm afraid :P) based on ideas that I have read on websites like AVPGalaxy and Scified plus my own take of the things. And btw, forgive me for my bad English  :laugh:

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil

Somewhere in Paradise (or somewhere else), the Engineers found the source of infinite wisdom: "The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". Partly a creature, plant, machine and even an interdimensional portal of some kind; the thing is a truly spacetime singularity.


The  Engineers ate of the forbidden fruit in order "to be godlike", and this forbidden fruit is the genetic accelerant popularly known as black goo. According to their findings, the dark virus works like a biochemical algorithm. Pluss they discovered that they could reach a temporary altered state of consciousness induced by the small amounts of the dark liquid. However,they began to see very bizarre things through this psychedelic experience, and everything evolved from being an experiment to an authentic shamanic ritual in order to interact with the "world of the deads", so to speak.

The Path to Paradise Begins in Hell

The world tree is a cultural archetype present in many religions and mythologies and is represented as a colossal tree which supports the heavens, connecting the heavens, the terrestrial world, and, through its roots, the underworld.


So they found a powerful source of knowledge and a portal to another world in this ancestral tree, and they started traveling and seeing things they had never seen before.

"Once the Engineers expressed themselves as humans do, taking pleasure in music, colour and story, but they've long learned to see in more dimensions than we do. Their art and ornament exist on planes imperceptible to human senses. Their constructions look dark and grim to us; but the Engineers' eyes see far more than our own."


But such trips were not pure hallucinations. Their minds and consciences began to interpret the cosmos in the same way that the biological algorithm does, traveling through all the strings, vibrations, tones and melodies that make up an epic symphony. It was like traveling through the Universe's DNA, and an unlimited library of information at the same time.

So...Why this race of ancient humans had the habit of dressing like biomechanical beasts to pilot their equally bizarre space ships?


Well, the answer could be found it in the film Prometheus and real-life archaeological artifacts. In the aforementioned movie, there is a fictional version of Pakal's sarcophagus lid (the tomb of an ancient Mayan king).


I know Scott and the writers were inspired by the Erich von Däniken's hypothesis and that this iconography represents an Engineer in his iconic telescopic chair. But then I started paying attention to what the true archeologists say about this ancient artifact:

"The iconography is a representation of World Tree, which the Maya believed had its roots in the underworld, trunk on the earthly plane, and branches high in paradise, and Pacal's travel through this metaphisical wolrd after his death".

So, when the Engineers were performing they psychedelic astral trips, they started with hell. which like a Pandora's box, releasing a whole dimension of the most horrible and bizarre nightmare visions.


Meeting the Designer


In the underworld, the Engineers began to change into terrifying monstrosities similar to the demons that surrounded them. Along with the transformation, the madness began to surface with eerie thoughts and notions.


They mutilated their bodies in order to recover their original human form, but when they looked between their wounds they could not see anything. There was no blood, muscles, organs or bones. Everything was a dark and infinite emptiness. Between the terror and the agony, strange questions began to emerge:

"What if there is nothing? Maybe our feelings and our memories were designed and we aren't real at all. Our Eden is just an illusion created 7 days ago and we are nothing more than characters, only a handful of pathetic pawns being controlled by cruel-indifferent players."

However, and through millennia of experience, they improve their skills. From there, astral travel ceased to be a nightmare and began to become a pleasant experience and an art in itself. They learned how to use the path of hell to reach paradise and enlightenment. It's was a scary but necessary path, as they learned a lot about conscientiousness and cosmos.


Eventually they began to see the true beauty of existence, and just like in the physical universe where astronomical events from millions of years ago can be seen in the present through telescopes, the Engineers witnessed one of the oldest and most primordial events in the universe: they met the Designer (or at least a manifestation of his/her consciousness). And like the philosophical God of the Pantheism, the designer sacrificed himself to become the universe in which the Engineers are living.

"Pandeism is a theological doctrine first delineated in the 18th century which combines aspects of pantheism with aspects of deism. It holds that the creator deity became the universe (pantheism) and ceased to exist as a separate and conscious entity (deism holding that God does not interfere with the universe after its creation). Pandeism is proposed to explain, as it relates to deism, why God would create a universe and then abandon it, and as to pantheism, the origin and purpose of the universe."


Engineers Civilization - Caste System

The prolonged use of tiny amounts of black goo began to mutate the DNA of the Engineers; their skin became albino, their eyes became black, their strength, intelligence and physical resistance improved exponentially. At this point, they devised ingenious electromagnetic mechanisms to cover the vast distances of space and great progress in bioengineering. And with all the knowledge learned during millennia of astral interdimensional travel, the Engineers became a caste civilization.


Space seeders: So just like their Creator made the universe by becoming the universe, the sacrificial Engineer created the primordial life on Earth by becoming the primordial life itself.


They create life through death ("sometimes to create, one must first destroy") by performing a symbolic ritual as a cult to the Designer of the universe and a symbol of their trip from hell to paradise through the World Tree to reach the infinite wisdom and the transcendence of consciousness.

Emissaries: They were wise mentors of the stars, who came to Earth in order to share wisdom in all fields of knowledge. Sometimes, they were misinterpreted as divine beings and inspired the foundation of religions and other kinds of belief systems. They have lived for a very long time, and yet they were afraid to disappear. Humans could have inherited the legacy of their creators and the infinite wisdom of the whole Universe. Or at least that was the first plan.


The last emissary was killed 2000 years ago by humans. This particular event became the kick-start of an extermination plan of biblical proportions.

Dark angels: After the last Emissary was killed, Engineers were angry and disappointed. As a result of the above, the caste of the Space Seeders was divided into two, forming a new caste; the riders of death (dark angels). They decided to make spacecraft with a design and aesthetic different from the ancient flying saucers. The interior designs symbolize and evoke the hell that the Engineers saw and lived when they traveled to other dimensions through altered states of consciousness.


Their flight suits are not only a protection against their warlike configuration of the forbidden fruit. In fact, the biomechanical suits evoke their avatars of demons during their travels in the underworld, because mankind deserves to agonize in hell and become a biological and physical materialization of interdimensional demons from the underworld, with their souls trapped forever in this nightmare in the shape of a monster. The telescopic chair is not just a navigation device, it is a representation of the Engineer climbing, and from a certain point of view riding, the tree of the world during his epic odyssey from hell to divine paradise.

However, these vehicles were not necessarily warships. The flying machines had no weapons to fight a battle because the plan was to send a fleet to bomb the planet Earth in ancient times when humans were primitive, but something went wrong in LV-223.

"I've managed to work out the broad strips, it's fairly evident they were in the process of leaving, before things went to pot." David in Prometheus

Civilians: Average Joe Engineers found on Planet 4. They live with a lifestyle of ancient Greece with some eccentricities such as: solar panels, lamps that levitate (I imagine that with magnetism) and a large docking station in the shape of a monolithic and gigeresque scorpion tail (though I wonder if evokes a Xenomorph tail). However, it is quite possible that there were juggernauts in the hangars under the Plaza.

A remarkable place in the Engineers necropolis is the "Hall of Heads". These big heads could be representing the wise pioneers of their civilization (like my psychedelic astronauts from my fanfiction) or even the emissaries.


"If you ask me, they were a people who were superior. These were probably the ten apostles, the wise men." Ridley Scott

David; or, The Modern Lucifer

David becomes a Sci Fi incarnation of Lucifer when the aforementioned synthetic man revealed himself against his human creators. He wants to create the perfect organism through the destruction of the Mandkind. Moreover, David claimed to have learned in the Engineers ways. Now, this claim can be interpreted in more than one way, but maybe the android managed to see what only the most wise Engineers could see and perceive. All this knowledge and experiences achieved during the extradimensional odysseys combined with his repressed sexuality led him to create the final Demon.


whiterabbit

No superior intergalactic race is going to f**k everything up in one day or 2000 years by spilling some stuff. There for they are just engineers. Probably no more than 100 million year old race. Which is old as f**k. I mean Ridley really did just make them dudes with superior technology.

So eh, I don't know, it's sound like you want them to be interdimensional stoners?

Biomechanoid

Thanks for sharing. Has a hint of the unseen advanced aliens in 2001 A Space Odyssey.

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Mar 02, 2018, 04:34:34 PM
And btw, forgive me for my bad English

Other than a misspelled word here and there (Pluss, mandkind, "world of the dead", not deads), it's a coherent presentation regarding English.

Immortan Jonesy

Immortan Jonesy

#3
Quote from: whiterabbit on Mar 02, 2018, 10:47:21 PM
No superior intergalactic race is going to f**k everything up in one day or 2000 years by spilling some stuff. There for they are just engineers. Probably no more than 100 million year old race. Which is old as f**k. I mean Ridley really did just make them dudes with superior technology.

I don't know, and apparently the plan was to release the black goo on Earth thousands of years ago, at a time when humans didn't even have electricity. Besides, there was less overpopulation on the planet. So I don't think that it would have been a difficult task to exterminate the human race. But they need more than one ship to achieve that purpose. However, we know that there are more Juggernauts out there.

 


Quote from: whiterabbit on Mar 02, 2018, 10:47:21 PM
So eh, I don't know, it's sound like you want them to be interdimensional stoners?

Cognitive bias, I know. But even though I don't know if it's the best idea, my main intention was to fill the gaps. Because seriously...Why these ancient humans have designed their space suits like a biomechanical interpretation of Ganesha ¿? In fact, the the whole biomechanical aesthetic looks so out of place in their architecture (almost shoe horned) that it would be a crime to come here and not speculate about it.

So I was thinking that all this nightmarish dark architecture and biomechanics aesthetics were a physical materialization of something that only the Engineers could see or find by reaching a temporary altered state of consciousness (not necessarily through space ayahuasca, that was just the idea that came to my mind :P), and somehow perceive a wider spectrum of reality. Maybe the monsters and the Alien itself are incarnations of something beyond our comprehension. Moreover, all the unexplored symbols presented in these prequels seem to suggest the possible existence of a whole story behind. I could be wrong, anyway. And after all this wild speculation, maybe I'll ended saying Weyland's last words: "there's nothing".


Quote from: Biomechanoid on Mar 03, 2018, 12:35:41 AM
Thanks for sharing. Has a hint of the unseen advanced aliens in 2001 A Space Odyssey.

You're welcome. I have always believed that there must be some kind of insane and surreal concept behind the Space Jockey mystery and I couldn't resist the plasure of take inspiration from 2001 A Space Odyssey and Lovecraft as well.

Quote from: Biomechanoid on Mar 03, 2018, 12:35:41 AM
Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Mar 02, 2018, 04:34:34 PM
And btw, forgive me for my bad English

Other than a misspelled word here and there (Pluss, mandkind, "world of the dead", not deads), it's a coherent presentation regarding English.

Thanks for the feedback, it could be very helpful if I decide improve my original post. I'm open to any suggestions  :)

The Alien Predator

I would love to see a picture of the solar panels in the Engineer city you mentioned above, it's interesting. I never noticed it before but it would make sense to help power their city.

Immortan Jonesy

Immortan Jonesy

#5
Quote from: The Alien Predator on Mar 03, 2018, 06:03:40 PM
I would love to see a picture of the solar panels in the Engineer city you mentioned above, it's interesting. I never noticed it before but it would make sense to help power their city.

Yes of course, and while I'm not 100% sure if these things are solar panels, in the film you can see golden structures on the roofs of the buildings. Including the large one located at the top of the temple.





Concept Art


I wonder if there is any relationship with the energy field of the planetary quarantine protocol ???

Baron Von Marlon

On top of the temple was supposed to be an orrery of some kind.
Gold can act as a conductor I think, so it might have been linked to it.

The last image show what I think is a doorway to the underground hangar for the ships.

The solar panels make sense since the Engineers are sorta eco friendly.

Immortan Jonesy

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Mar 04, 2018, 02:56:14 AM
On top of the temple was supposed to be an orrery of some kind.

Now that you mention it, I think it's the astronomical model mentioned in the early John Logan script.


Baron Von Marlon

There's something similar in Khang Le's concept art. Filename's "egg room telescope".
I think it's a variation on the orrery. In this case you can clearly see the planet and forcefield.
Guess it played a more important role in some drafts.


Born Of Cold Light

Fascinating concept, Fox would be smart to look into these ideas.

You mention a caste system; in Prometheus, there's the scene when David is learning proto-Indo-European, which turns out to be the Engineer language.  The Hindu caste system has antecedents that go almost all the way back to when the original Indo-European languages diverged; maybe in the Alien universe, this could be a cultural influence from the Engineers.  Also, given David's Nordic body type and the Engineers' Buddha-like facial structure, combined with the Engineers' seeming obsession with physical uniformity, there are alot of shades of some of the race "science" that was used by Nazi Germany.  If one were to study Engineer society, I would not be surprised if it turned out to be something akin to Julius Evola's grotesque beliefs in "national mysticism" and a "celestial" Aryan race.  If anything, their history seems to be a damning verdict on the idea of racial purity, as in their quest for a perfect society, the Engineers completely stripped themselves of everything that made them human, and their sole legacy was Ash's "perfect organism" that was nothing more than a monster evolved solely for destroying everything in its path.

whiterabbit

I'd so much prefer that the Space Jockey's be from another dimension or even hell for that matter. When Scott made them people he obviously made them too human. Everything we've seen has been too clean cut. Which is on purpose as they are probably false gods. Both Prometheus and Alien Covenant is setting them up for such a revelation.

If I had the chance to right the ship in my image I would make the Space Jockey not be an engineer. I would relegate the engineers and David as making nothing more than bootlegs of the Alien. The original space jockey would be an alien from another galaxy. Making it from another dimension would be taking it too far I think.

This would obviously mean bringing back the horror. I do agree that the engineers would have to be above our idea of consciousness though. A way of thinking that would make such perversion natural.

NetworkATTH

I actually rather like the idea human's were the first civilization in the galaxy some billion years ago, Earth may have been the first, but flawed, and they got better, but still held Earth as a reproduction of their own ecosystem and life. Turned out we didn't end up how they liked, and wanted us gone for shorter easier solutions.

Who knows, in my head canon, "God" is the first human beings who became space faring, which lead to the Engineers. And they worship that civilization religiously.

They are the Titans, those are the Gods. If you get Greek Mythology you know what I mean. Whatever started this off is long gone, but whatever replicate in the form of Engineers, who's orders were religiously motivated to spread and cleanse, they still act on that.

I've really grown on the idea that it's just, humans reproducing other humans, reproducing other humans, until you reach David and the Engineer's fears are confirmed when in the grand cycle of the pangs of birth of worlds, he managed to uh, have a real f**ked up sense of what perfection was contrary to the Engineers, which is our global ecology of a sorts, and them.

It's a play on the Title, Earth itself is Alien, and yet familiar. In space no one can hear you scream because David has managed to wipe out the "Titans", automatons not like himself.

The main series is about the biological need to reproduce through the galaxy so you can live on. David, however. David can live for as long as he pleases

The concepts are better than the movies can portray them. They are fascinating. I like the idea humanity first came in existence in the milky way, and has been working on doing better to replicate themselves from whatever "God" civilization of humans started first, and develop better ways to wipe planets out. And here comes David, the ultimate end to this series of eternal recurrence. And man's vision of what his creation is, is far more insect like than he hopes to admit. And naturally, David's creation is a f**king monster once he gets his hands on the stuff.

Back to the old replicant question in Blade Runner. Who is replicant and who is man, what's the difference?

whiterabbit

Yea I have no problem with the human/titan concept. But the alien fan in me really wants the Space Jockey we thought we knew from 79. However both can exist in this world if we just make the titans as one of god's creations. God could still be a human though. However I still want the Space Jockey to be outside of all this. Which is why I'd prefer that he comes from another Galaxy. It could in a sense be made out to be a war among the gods from different universes.

As far as who is human or more so alive all depends on ones definition. If evolution continues, eventually we humans at some point will stop being human. In which case, replicants very much are alive. I mean what are we anyways. Last I checked it is our brains that makes us human. Our organs mostly function due to their own will to survive. Our power generator, mitochondria is for all intents and purposes a separate life form that joined our cells for symbiotic purposes. I mean just think about that. Much of what makes us, us, is a bunch of cells working together for mutual benefit. Kind of like Midichlorians. Which proves George Lucas was onto something.

blackGoo|skin-lotion|

The caste system makes sense overall, interesting to know would be, who the actual God of the Engineers is (what they worship). But somehow i think they are themselves (with the Elders on top).
They evolved in technology and intellect, and start to explore the galaxy, maybe several galaxys to find answers for their own existence. As there was nothing out there (believers believe in magic beings), they "only" found something that at least resembles to something "godlike" but without the magic. Some kind of primordial soup, or remains of a primordial creature which contains tremendous primordial genetic informations of life and "the tied to it" death (this soup/creature is the Giger-God). With the entire soup (modified in some way, so their offsprings look like them and not like a space abomination) they create life, and "Death" is that what the Engineers had extracted and propably processed further to the point of the Black Goo, the direct counterpart to living flesh. The black goo needs the flesh equally as it wants to curse it, to create evolved offsprings "born from the flesh of the unworthy".

So if a "seed" carries no fruit in their eyes (humans obviously failed in intellect overall), the military Engineer "Horsemen of the Apocalypse" come with their Black Goo Pestilence and biblically wipe out everything. The genocide looked like a "biblical plague" scene with all the Black Goo nano flies/bugs/parasites swarming around like flies around a pile of shit.

With this stuff they play God for their "children". I think they created one "intellect and genetic" perfect form of themselves and assigned them the purpose of life and destruction. I wonder if these "perfect" slave Engineers know the entire story, or are they just brainwashed (as the Elders are their Gods), as the military Engineers seem to worship their "work". Funny thing about David, the Engineers created beside their tool for life, the tool for destruction which David is obviously immune too. The Black Goo and the always shapeshifting/morphing death parasite/bot in it is coded to destruct flesh. David can play with a Facehugger like a pet, the Facehugger does not notice him as it seeks/coded to  "the warm and wet breath"
The Neomorph recognize him (evolved creature) but doesn´t attack him (if he is not hostile against the creature), as it is coded for flesh. The "death" to life is even in its evolved form trapped to its purpose. With David's Xeno-brand (yeah, with all the DNA manipulation shown in the movies, he could have easily build a pink Xeno too) he created an even more evolved (he thinks propably perfect) form, which is now free from it´s underlaying purpose (which he maybe is not aware of, his little miscalculation). In my mind, the Xeno is the mostly advanced Black Goo space bug version with complete freedom, it has the ability to attack everything at free will. Poor David, his own children will turn against him "Everyone hates their parents".

Interesting to see is, how easy everything is for David, catching up the Engineers wisdom with ease. He stole a horsemens ride and let it dump over the city of the enlightened. The Engineers really needed their destruction tool, in this lonely universe, everything and everyone hates everything and everyone. And now the perfect evolved version of the Pestilence (which is somehow the slightest evil between all the other non Goo Monsters) has joined the fight too.

David in its element

Immortan Jonesy

Immortan Jonesy

#14
Jockeys From Hell Part ll - Parallels with the Norse Mythology

OP summary: Hypothetically speaking; the Engineers expressed through art, design and architecture what they saw in Hell and Paradise. The Black Goo is a legacy, a piece of technology and a kind of consciousness of a long lost Designer and the Space Jockey is a symbol of an odyssey beyond the physical universe. With a David trying to become a designer / creator by learning from the Engineer's ways.


The goal of the thread is to try to find clues that help us to know more about this civilization that we used to call Space Jockeys (usually for fun), since Ridley seems to be taking a different direction with the next prequel. Even though he changes his mind all the time, so only time will tell.


Some time ago (before Alien Covenant's release), I made another thread to discuss the symbolism behind Richard Wagner's Entrance of the Gods into Valhalla. Over there, a member of this very forum called Enoch shared an interesting parallelism related to Nordic mythology and the black goo of the films:

Curious Similarities Between Black Goo And Mythical Eitr


In Norse mythology, Valhalla is a majestic hall located in the city of Asgard (one of the nine worlds in norse cosmology) ruled by Odin. And guess what; there is a huge mythical tree (a bit similar to the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" in Christianity and the "World Tree" in the Mayan cosmology) called Yggdrasil that connects the aforementioned nine worlds in Norse mythology.




But the biggest coincidence has no similarities with my little piece of fan fiction, but rather with the real Alien prequels. In Norse mythology there is a legendary liquid substance called Eitr. It is said that the liquid is very poisonous and the origin of all living things. Yes, you heard right.

According to Wiki:

Eitr is a mythical substance in Norse mythology. This liquid substance is the origin of all living things: the first giant Ymir was conceived from eitr. The substance is supposed to be very poisonous and is also produced by Jörmungandr (the Midgard serpent) and other serpents.

In addition, from the liquid substance was born a giant called Ymir. According to the legends, Odin and his brothers killed Ymir and used his body to create the world where humans would live:

The gods slew the giant Aurgelmir (Ymir) (the first created being) and put his body into the central void of the universe, creating the world out of his body: his flesh constituting the land, his blood the oceans, his bones the mountains, his teeth the cliffs, his hairs the trees, and his brains the clouds. Aurgelmir's skull was held by four dwarfs, Nordri, Sudri, Austri, and Vestri, who represent the four points on the compass and became the dome of heaven. The sun, moon, and stars were said to be scattered sparks in the skull.


A modus operandi similar to Black Goo: creating life through death and destruction. But it is even more similar if we interrelate the aforementioned black substance as some kind of manifestation of a greater consciousness or a god, which kills a giant using his body for creation.

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