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Author Topic: Alien: Covenant will take place ten years after Pr...  (Read 17730 times)

Mustangjeff
Dec 31, 2015, 01:49:14 AM
Reply #15 on: Dec 31, 2015, 01:49:14 AM
Time dilation people. Who's time is it? Ours or theirs?

Time dilation affects those who are traveling at relativistic speeds.  In fact traveling at 90% the speed of light only yields a ratio of 0.436 : 1

So for every year that passes to the stationary observer, the crew of the ship experiences about 159 days.  Time is definitely slowed down, but not by that much.  Things start getting interesting if you can approach 99.9% the speed of light. 

If Covenant takes place 10 years after Prometheus, we are looking at a date of 2103?

Assuming (for fun) the ship was launched in 2030 with sub FTL, but could travel at 99.9% of the speed of light.  The time dilation ratio is 0.045 to 1

1) The planet they land on is about 80LY from earth

2) 80yr x 365 days = 29,200 days as observed from earth

3) It would take 3.7 years accelerating at 1g to hit 99.9% the speed of light, and the same in amount of time to decelerate to a stop.  The ship would travel 20.7LY during the acceleration, and 20.7LY during the deceleration.  38.6LY would be spent traveling at the .045 time dilation.

3) 38.6 years = 14,089 days x .045 = 634 days (or 1.7 yrs) pass to the people on the Covenant.

4) 3.7 + 1.7 +3.7 = 9.1 years pass to the crew members of the Covenant on flight of 80LY, traveling at 99.9% the speed of light, and accelerating/decelerating at 1g.

:)  Watch my math be totally wrong





windebieste
Dec 31, 2015, 02:19:10 AM
Reply #16 on: Dec 31, 2015, 02:19:10 AM
Nice.  More importantly, though, no one in Hollywood gives a shit if you're math was right or not.  Remember... the Narcissus took 57 years to 'float through the core systems' and you can bet Cameron wasn't too interested in whether the shuttle had FTL or not to tell his story.  Presumably, it lacks that function. 

After all, it took Voyager 36 years to enter interstellar space... it's a long haul between the Solar System's outer edge and the next stop without the luxury of FTL no matter how you add the figures up. 

Either way, 'ALIEN' depicts a fair fictional representation of space travel.  It is hard, awkward, uncomfortable, costly, dangerous and lonely.   I think that's more important in terms of telling a story than getting the math right. 

Unless it's non-fiction, accuracy be damned, I say.   Never let the facts get in the way of telling a good story.  ;)

-Windebieste.


Mustangjeff
Dec 31, 2015, 05:37:01 AM
Reply #17 on: Dec 31, 2015, 05:37:01 AM
Nice.  More importantly, though, no one in Hollywood gives a shit if you're math was right or not.  Remember... the Narcissus took 57 years to 'float through the core systems' and you can bet Cameron wasn't too interested in whether the shuttle had FTL or not to tell his story.  Presumably, it lacks that function. 

After all, it took Voyager 36 years to enter interstellar space... it's a long haul between the Solar System's outer edge and the next stop without the luxury of FTL no matter how you add the figures up. 

Either way, 'ALIEN' depicts a fair fictional representation of space travel.  It is hard, awkward, uncomfortable, costly, dangerous and lonely.   I think that's more important in terms of telling a story than getting the math right. 

Unless it's non-fiction, accuracy be damned, I say.   Never let the facts get in the way of telling a good story.  ;)

-Windebieste.

I agree with you completely. 

I just hate it when things are so obviously wrong that it stinks out loud.  I do a little bit of amateur astronomy at the house so I do have some concept how far away objects are.  I don't expect everyone watching hard sci-fi to know specifics such as light travels around 6 trillion miles in one year. But... When Vickers used her infamous "half a billion miles from every man on earth" line I thought my head was going to explode.  That's around the distance from Earth to Jupiter.

Obviously "half a billion" rolls off the tongue better than 2.0574749335x10^14th


windebieste
Dec 31, 2015, 10:27:39 AM
Reply #18 on: Dec 31, 2015, 10:27:39 AM
For sure.  Unfortunately, it's not Hollywood's responsibility to educate anyone.  Entertainment is their game - and all the caveats that come with it have to be taken on face value. 

So 'ALIEN: Covenant' takes place 10 years after 'Prometheus'?  I can live with that.  What has me curious is why is this necessary?  How is it critical to the narrative?  At least they aren't divorcing it from the series to the same degree that 'ALIEN: Resurrection' was.  Setting it 200 years further into the future only removed that movie entirely from the rest of the series, cementing the trilogy +1.

Maybe we are going to see the inverse of that situation.  'Prometheus' becomes the 1 + a trilogy. 

I'm hoping this all works out and I have my reservations just like anyone else; but I'm not prepared to pass too much judgment on it just yet, either.   I totally get that science in these movies is adjusted to suit the story.  That sometimes the facts are bent to accommodate the narrative.  I get that.  What I don't support is poor characters - of which 'Prometheus' was overburdened with.  I'm hoping this trilogy lifts its game in this department. 

I can tolerate almost any hokey science if the story, characters and cinematic style are well executed.   After all, look at 'Star Wars'... it's a fun movie, but watching those movies to rely on an education in science is like relying on McDonalds to be the voice of good food nutrition. 

It's all good fun but you'd be a fool to do so in any serious capacity.

-Windebieste.
 



whiterabbit
Dec 31, 2015, 11:12:11 AM
Reply #19 on: Dec 31, 2015, 11:12:11 AM
It's just an arbitrary time frame. Although I'm not even sure if this(these) movies have to all take place before Alien. I know that the 3rd movie is supposed to run into Alien as a prequel. However just how many of us really want or need that to happen? To be honest I'd rather have this run parallel to Alien. I understand that Ridley wants to tell the space jockey's story but he could do that just as well by alluding to it through the Trilogy. Actually it would be neat if he retained the "fossilized" space jockey and made it a true GOD or hero. Basically anything. Then from what ever knowledge the Covenant and subsequent travelers learn, would lead them to the holy grail. Which is what the Nostromo eventually runs into. Yea I prefer some round about way of telling his story, rather than having the ship crash land in modern times. Although Shaw being the corpse inside of the suit does tickle my fancy, if just a little.


The Eighth Passenger
Dec 31, 2015, 05:30:10 PM
Reply #20 on: Dec 31, 2015, 05:30:10 PM
In another interview with Collider, Cinematographer Dariusz Wolski briefly touches upon Alien: Covenant and how he will push for 65mm.

65 and 70mm film is a wide high-resolution format that has almost double the resolution of standard 35mm motion picture film. It also gives a much grander and epic feel to the film. Examples of films shot in this format are, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Lawrence of Arabia, The Hateful Eight, Ben-Hur, Alien 3 (effects work only) The Empire Strikes Back (effects work only) and Blade Runner (effects work only)

http://collider.com/cinematographer-dariusz-wolski-the-martian-alien-covenant-dark-city-interview/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=collidersocial


T Dog
Dec 31, 2015, 07:09:42 PM
Reply #21 on: Dec 31, 2015, 07:09:42 PM
In another interview with Collider, Cinematographer Dariusz Wolski briefly touches upon Alien: Covenant and how he will push for 65mm.

65 and 70mm film is a wide high-resolution format that has almost double the resolution of standard 35mm motion picture film. It also gives a much grander and epic feel to the film. Examples of films shot in this format are, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Lawrence of Arabia, The Hateful Eight, Ben-Hur, Alien 3 (effects work only) The Empire Strikes Back (effects work only) and Blade Runner (effects work only)

http://collider.com/cinematographer-dariusz-wolski-the-martian-alien-covenant-dark-city-interview/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=collidersocial
It would be great if Covenant was shot on film. I didn't like the modern digital-ness of some of Prometheus.


XenoHunter99
Dec 31, 2015, 08:33:28 PM
Reply #22 on: Dec 31, 2015, 08:33:28 PM
I think the stock sci fi answer to relativity is, FTL drive bypasses the speed of light. Basically, the ship moves into an alternate dimension bypassing normal time and space using some sort of wormhole, spatial tunnel, or shadow dimension (hyperspace). The ship never even approaches the speed of light, but traverses great distances at what seems to be superluminal speeds without any of the messy side effects. I wouldn't think any of that would be a big problem in the Alien universe - All those ships seem to have easy, excellent artificial gravity, even the tiny little shuttlecraft. With that in mind, it surprises me their weapons and overall technology seem so primitive and pedestrian.

« Last Edit: Dec 31, 2015, 08:46:32 PM by XenoHunter99 »

windebieste
Dec 31, 2015, 10:07:03 PM
Reply #23 on: Dec 31, 2015, 10:07:03 PM
that in mind, it surprises me their weapons and overall technology seem so primitive and pedestrian.

Most commercial and industrial hardware is built like that.  It's not built to be sexy or appealing to a mass market.  It's built to be functional.  Compare the interiors of the International Space Station to the interiors of the Enterprise and the Nostromo.  The Nostromo is a functional environment not made for it's good looks but how it operates.


The international space station.   Notice all the surface mounted equipment.  You don't want extra penetrations in surfaces if you can avoid it aboard a spacecraft.


Enterprise Corridor.  Wow! So clean and devoid of any equipment.  This has to be good, Right?  Wrong.


Nostromo Corridor.  It looks more like a submarine.  But a spacecraft shares more with a submarine than you may realise.  Think about it.

I'd say with all of its exposed conduits and surface mounted equipment for ease of access, the Nostromo is more like the real deal than The Enterprise.  Why conceal all the equipment behind wall paneling?  In an emergency situation, you want fast access to that equipment.  You don't want to pull off wall panels and look for it - you want immediate access to it. 

So yes.  It should look primitive and pedestrian when compared to sleek consumer goods that are made to look sexy because that's what sells mass market product.  These vehicles aren't part of any consumer industry.   Presuming, of course, that the crews of these vessels are trained professionals on board to perform specific tasks and not just tourists on a holiday cruise.

So I give the Nostromo a Pass; and The Enterprise a Fail in attempting to portray a functional environment in space.

-Windebieste


XenoHunter99
Jan 01, 2016, 02:50:29 AM
Reply #24 on: Jan 01, 2016, 02:50:29 AM
Windebieste, you completely missed my point. War drives technological innovation. We have every reason to think humans continued to make war. These people have artificial gravity and FTL drive. They have robot surgery machines. So why are their soldiers armed with slug throwers, grenades, flame throwers and sometimes nukes? Their computers and screen displays look pitifully primitive, but they have AI smart enough to make androids that pass for human. It makes no sense. Why don't they have Predator stealth fields and plasma weapons? Intelligent targeting rail guns? Orbital mass drivers? Phasers? Photon torpedoes? force fields? You name it, they apparently don't have it. They don't even seem to have it 200 years later for Resurrection. They have more dolts with slug throwers. We know the Prometheus crew had those nifty mapping drones. Why were they not in evidence in Aliens? Would have simplified a lot of problems the marines encountered at Hadley's Hope.

I'm not talking about Alien. The freighter crew doesn't need anything fancy to haul freight, and one can simply say the Nostromo was old. It's like a steam engine or ocean vessel that soldiers on because it's cheap, reliable and profitable. But it's insufficiently maintained, so it has problems when taken off its normal track or sailed into a storm.

We know the real answer. The movies were made out of order and the ideas about that universe did not filter evenly or logically across the timeline. Cameron made specific decisions about what happened and why in Aliens. But all that leaves a sort of technological paradox. If you have the means to control gravity and the AI to make artificial brains, you have the means to do lots of other interesting things. And most of those interesting things are curiously missing from this vision of the future.


The Alien Predator
Jan 01, 2016, 02:16:22 PM
Reply #25 on: Jan 01, 2016, 02:16:22 PM
Same reason why we have such advanced smart phones and laptops and yet still burn fossil fuels for our cars.

Maybe the Alien universe humans developed slightly differently, perhaps these things you're pointing out aren't that easy to make or the universe isn't compatible with such things (such as photon torpedos) because it's a more "hard sci fi" setting.

But humans do show a sense of progress, the Rage War novel has a humanity that is so advanced that it'd almost make Star Trek blush.

Here are some examples of their weaponry and other technology (contains some minor spoilers).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This is what I like about the franchise, it shows a huge sense of progress. Sure, some things seem a bit retro futuristic, but that can be chalked up to Weyland-Yutani being cheap (Nostromo) or humans going through some economically hard times. Remember in Resurrection there was a plague that apparently ravaged humanity.

And I think Winde is right, emergency equipment does need to be available and visible at all times especially on a ship.


XenoHunter99
Jan 01, 2016, 03:43:12 PM
Reply #26 on: Jan 01, 2016, 03:43:12 PM
@Guan Thwei 1992:
If Star Wars taught us nothing else, It taught us this: If it didn't happen on screen, it didn't happen. Novels don't count.



The Eighth Passenger
Jan 01, 2016, 04:21:27 PM
Reply #28 on: Jan 01, 2016, 04:21:27 PM
It would be great if Covenant was shot on film. I didn't like the modern digital-ness of some of Prometheus.

I also prefer film myself. But Scott would probably have to ditch the 3D then. It will likely be a bit of a nightmare filming 3D with those bulky 65/70mm film cameras if it can even be done. Or otherwise post convert it into 3D which is not really ideal either. Not that I care for 3D myself but the studio might see things differently.


« Last Edit: Jan 01, 2016, 04:24:39 PM by The Eighth Passenger »

XenoHunter99
Jan 01, 2016, 05:07:24 PM
Reply #29 on: Jan 01, 2016, 05:07:24 PM
@Guan Thwei 1992:
If Star Wars taught us nothing else, It taught us this: If it didn't happen on screen, it didn't happen. Novels don't count.

This isn't Star Wars.

Doesn't matter. The lesson is universal. EU doesn't count. When film makers draw upon it, that's a bonus. But film makers are rarely bound by it. And rights holders can declare it null and void any time they like. Now, if Alien were based on a novel, like the tale of a certain annoying British wizard boy or a certain girl with a bow and arrow, the dynamics between book and movie might be a little different. But these Rage War novels don't matter a hill of beans to what we're ever going to see on the screen. Bitter pill, but that's the way it goes.


 

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